An Example of Cheaper to Own?

Actually I think your assuming a lot.

When something rents, they usually put "listing rented" not "no longer available" and even if it said "listing rented," streeteasy can't confirm like they can a sale. Further, no one can confirm if it asked 4900 and got 2500 per month, or 4 months free.
But what makes this listing impossible the most is that an apartment in williamsburg rented for $49 per sq ft

We found 156 listings at least 500 sqft
Median price: $2,600 Median size: 933 ft² Median price per ft²: $33

Information on Williamsburg

But yes, show me the lease at 4900 with no free months and you have a winner.

Unfortunately the reality probably is this apartment might fetch (1211sq ft times $33 = 39,963 divided by 12 months is) $3330 a month.

Let's see, 3330 times 200 = $666,000 Sorry wouldn't touch it for over 650K

truthskr, definitely don't mean to make any definitive statements without proof of its being rented - sorry if it came off that way. I think this should clear it up though: http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1902805

There's no way to know the price or concessions, for sure, but the fact that it went in 2 weeks is a pretty good sign that it was desirable at that price or very close to it. Even with a fairly hefty rent reduction (or a couple free months - 4 is aggressive, I think), landlord's still in the black on a monthly basis. That said, I totally agree with your estimate on what the rent should be - I have a very similar unit, but with a second bath, and have estimated ~$3500 for it, so seeing $4900 here was shocking. It's in no way the norm, but it's definitely an interesting case nonetheless.

72 Berry was unique in terms of its combination of location, character and low cc's. It was priced reasonably with market at the time. I was very tempted and flirted with the idea of commiting, but kept emotions at bay and held out because I felt prices would drop further in WB. Well, they did, but I underestimated demand for a small unique building like this. I still have mixed feelings when I walk past. I don't know if given a second chance, if I would have taken things further. Like with that feisty girl I met in the summer of '06.

Its hard to imagine someone rented this for $4900.

Rhino, just because it's hard for you to imagine doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Don't forget to factor in the significant savings of the mortgage interest deduction, regardless of the home's *value*.

Thats such a brilliant comment BJW.

Matt, there's also the legitimate argument of opportunity cost on the down payment, but agreed, one shouldn't ignore that completely.

Rhino, one "brilliant" comment deserves another. Seriously, what was your point? Hard to "imagine"? Solid.

Chicken in egg. Your post is essentially worthless unless you know
this rented for $4900, which you don't. So right back at ya.

No, but take the evidence we do have - this rented in 2 weeks, so even if it didn't rent at full ask, it's probably safe to assume that it wasn't far off. And even if it was $800 off the rent or so, it's still more expensive to rent. I think that's pretty noteworthy. Just because it may not jive with your worldview doesn't make it worthless. Sorry.

We dont know it rented thats the point.

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1902805

Huh? we don't know if it rented?

We don't know how much it rented for.

And it's likely we never will. By the same token, we'll never know what most apartments rent for, therefore rent vs buy analysis is all shot to hell and let's all go home and have a sandwich. I think this is significant; you may not like it but that doesn't mean it's worthless. Seems pretty clear that this was likely cheaper to buy.

Face it this is worthless because the rental price seems way off the market. In a typical rent buy you'd appraise the rental value with comps. Even if there was a rental sucker in this case that doesn't disprove that renting in billyberg as an overall market is cheaper than buying.

Rhino, I agree average rents are lower in the neighborhood, but this is a very recent sale (at a time when the market is decidedly down) and rental, so it's kind of ridiculous to dismiss it as "worthless" or a "rental sucker" (I thought anyone who elected to rent instead of buy now was a genius?). This is better than a comp because it's the same exact unit. I get that you like to browbeat others into accepting your views, but I'll take actual data over that any day.

It's not actual data because you don't know if it rented at ask. You can repeat yourself as much as you like. Actual data from which to just a market is multiple sales vs hard data on actual rentals. You are so indignant that we don't all beleive this rented so high above the market stats.

Sorry I can't make head or tail of one person possibly overpaying. great data man, great data.

So like I said, you can take all the rent vs buy analysis on this site and toss it out the window, because I have yet to find a reliable source for actual rents. They're not published anywhere I know of. All you can use are actual rents you're aware of (your own place, a couple friends, maybe - hell of a lot of great data points, huh?), and it's even more unlikely you'll find the sales price for those units, especially so close in transaction dates (from purchase to rent). I've never said it's the norm, but like in all investing, do you care more about how you did or how the average market did? You can whine about "overpaying" and (sarcastically) "great data," but unless you can show me this rented for way way less than what was offered (and we're talking like $1,000 less), I find your kvetching about this pretty incredible. It debunks your hardline views, and apparently that's tough for you to swallow. Tough cookies.

What is the point that you hope to win here? You found something that was listed for rent at $49/sqft...and the average rental price in Williamsburg is $33 according to a search someone did above...and the onus on me is to disprove that this rented for what it was listed for? Are you for real? I actually find your assertion pretty incredible.

I just did a search for doormen 2 bed 1+ bath rentals in Williamsberg. The range was $2800 to $4100. What point are you trying to win by finding an unconfirmed outlier?

10 listings

↓ $2,800
2 beds 2 baths
1,211 ft²
446 Kent Avenue
Rental, Williamsburg
Listed by Corcoran

↓ $2,900
2 beds 2 baths
1,100 ft²
Kent Avenue
Rental, Williamsburg
Listed by Corcoran

$3,000
2 beds 2 baths
1,246 ft²
440 Kent Avenue
Condo, Williamsburg
Listed by Halstead Property

$3,000
2 beds 2 baths
1,414 ft²
446 Kent Avenue
Rental, Williamsburg
Listed by Corcoran

$3,600
2 beds 2 baths
1,270 ft²
440 Kent Avenue
Condo, Williamsburg
Listed by Halstead Property

$3,720
2 beds 2 baths
992 ft²
424 Bedford Avenue
Rental, Williamsburg
Listed by Corcoran

↓ $3,800
2 beds 2 baths
1,100 ft²
415 Leonard Street
Rental, Williamsburg
Listed by Corcoran
Open House: Sun, Jan 17 (1:00 - 2:30)

(NO FEE) $3,970
2 beds 2 baths
184 Kent Avenue
Rental, Williamsburg
Listed by NY Living Solutions

↓ $4,100
2 beds 2 baths
1,222 ft²
440 Kent Avenue
Condo, Williamsburg
Listed by Halstead Property

446 Kent Avenue apparently asks on average $600/ft to buy and $31/ft to rent...tell me your point again? Do you still feel frustrated? Do you still feel like you are the one with the point?

MARKET DATA
9 active sales listings: $609 per ft² (avg)
6 active rentals listings: $31 per ft² (avg)
162 previous sales listings: $727 per ft² (avg)
59 previous rentals listings: $33 per ft² (avg)
148 recorded sales: $665 per ft² (avg)

Tell me again why I want to buy something for $600k that I can rent for $2800. Joke. I think you are doing a victory lap over a listing typo. In 45 seconds I'm convinced this is an error. There is no way they found someone to pay $4900 for a $3000 comp.

Ok here you go smarty. Same unit for sale $600K or rent for $2800....including abatements for a whopping 4.2% cap rate. I guess its not cheaper to buy than rent in Willamsburg huh?

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/444327-condo-440-kent-avenue-williamsburg-brooklyn

" It debunks your hardline views, and apparently that's tough for you to swallow. Tough cookies."

I guess I just raised you a building vs. one typo of a rental listing...debunking you back and then some.

Rhino, you're pretty emotional considering the topic, and quite stubborn. Comparing to 446 Kent is, as most people in Williamsburg would tell you, like comparing East 82rd with East 116th. Not so good. I'm not doing any "victory laps" especially since I'm not involved in this transaction in the slightest. You're "convinced" it's an error because you don't know what you're talking about but like to mouth off anyway. You don't want to believe it? Fine, just move on to another thread and live in a cocoon where data points that don't jive with your world view don't exist. Good luck.

It doesnt really matter that 446 is less desirable. I have a hard time believing that apartments sell for 13x rent in a luxury condo in one part of Williamsburg and 20x rent in another part. Why dont you move on....reread your thread. You are the only one here who believes your datapoint or finds it interesting.

You are right, it is likely that you found the only condo in the five boroughs that traded at 13x rent in a 20x+ market.

Did you make it outside today Rhino? I tell ya, it was the most glorious weekend day in the last 3 months! On the way back from the meer rink we picked up a big filet of fresh salmon and almost passed out before we got to eat it. Talk about a bunch of ice skating salmon eating Canadians! Anyway, I started a fire and now the girls are drinking tea and watching The Sound of Music (OMG). I'll jump in for the good numbers but thought I might poke into SE in the meantime and see what's happening. I see bjw found a quickie that put you in tilt mode again and it got me thinking how important it is to exercise and eat well. I tell ya, if things are getting me down there's nothing like a tough workout followed by a good home cooked meal. I never found mixing expletives with harmless mammals very helpful. Peace brother.

I've made all these posts in the last 45 minutes...but thanks for your concern. Don't you have a self congratulatory missive to craft? I'll be happy to see things trade at 13x rent when they do...until then you all can pretend that something in Billyberg sold for $600k and rented for $5k a month...when everything else here there and everywhere is trading 16-18-20x+. At least you bought a fireplace. That should save you when you realize a 2/2 isnt enough space for two kids.

Signing out of this magic condo thread, so save the retort.

spin, very funny. it was a glorious day, wasn't it? although i confess i would do just about anything to avoid watching the sound of music. whatever makes the girls happy.

i actually spent a number of hours in soho today. sadly the daughter can only wear jeans sold by hollister or A&F (sizing issues, not style) and i thought the hollister store in soho (had never been there before) would be more user-friendly than the A&F store on 5th and 56th. i was wrong, but it was a VERY interesting experience.

Help me out. My mother in law's apt which I pay for just got a foreclosure notice. Apparently the 'owners' have been keeping my rent checks but not sending then to countrywide oooops I meant bofa. Mortgage of $875k. FYI thats a 300x+ curent Mkt rental. Hmmmmm 3 shortsales already active in bldg. Holy crap I am in on ground zero in this fiasco. FYI it's not NYC but a major city nonetheless.

I thought with banker's bonuses at record levels this 'short/foreclosure' is supposed to be all behind us? Me thinkz not, maybe they shouldn't be any bonuses until the banks come clean with their balance shit numbers.

this should be a bad 80s song.

oh we gave you so much, oh fasb.
we love you to pieces, free money.
little regulation, just go be.
are you gods, you bet thee.

Jesus Rhino, chill out. You think it's a "typo" now? Your due diligence was such that you couldn't be bothered to click on one link to see that it was actually rented before declaring "we don't know it rented" and you're comparing an overpriced building in a very different area to state your case? Look, my point was never that everyone should go out and buy everything in sight. I found an interesting data point and you've apparently decided that it's a "typo." You're the only one who seems to think that's the case. Now you can go back to berating someone else who likes something or is talking about anything - those situations really seem to offend you.

spinnaker, hilarious. And yes, it was a beautiful day - if anyone's in Brooklyn, they're doing the flea at the Williamsburgh Savings Bank (in Fort Greene, despite the name). It's a beautiful place to have it, even if you don't get anything.

one fine day doesn't make a summer.

BJW maybe you found an outlier. Sorry it offends you that I doubt something traded at 13x rent in a five borough condo market that seems to be soundly over 20x. Yes we know the Corcoran site reported it as RENTED...but when something is this far off market, the way my mind works is more to doubt it than to believe such a huge outlier exists. The best data in Williamsburg appears to be new devs that rent and offer the same units... Again, whether that other building is overpriced or not, that should not really skew a rent buy ratio from 13x to 20x. I am curious enough now to check another development or two. If they also offer at 20x rent...then yeah, I'd have to guess that there is something fishy about the rental you found. Sorry.

125 North 10, which is closer to yours, seems to offer at 18-20x rent...granted on only one active rental of a small one bed. The smallest unit for sale is larger than the one for rent...870sqft offered for $650k....but it still gets us to $750/ft like the buildings asking average. I guess the other interesting thing I found is that there are 140 new developments in Williamsburg alone...which is nuts.

MARKET DATA
43 active sales listings: $742 per ft² (avg)
1 active rentals listings: $42 per ft² (avg)
20 previous sales listings: $826 per ft² (avg)
28 recorded sales: $799 per ft² (avg)