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I am trying to understand the "household income" requirement for HDFC coops. If I am under the cap and buy an HDFC and then my girlfriend moves in with me after I buy it, what happens? Would they evict me?
Also, I'm freelance so my income can fluctuate year-to-year, so I might be a bit under the cap one year and way over the next.
Ali, Thanks again. We will come to market the weekend after the holidays as you suggest. I think your advice makes sense, and we will go this route - price aspirationally and see what happens. It's your nabe, so incredibly low inventory as you know. The variable is the value of the reno which is very high end (and convenient in terms of storage, new plumbing and electric), but it may not be entirely apparent from the listing or fully appreciated.
@aael, when are you planning to come to market? I would skip next weekend because of the Passover/Easter holidays, but I think you could price aspirationally the weekend after that, give it 2-3 weeks, and then do a price chop if you need to.
Because comps with older renovations that went into contract earlier in the year might be correctly priced, or they might be low -- I can't tell without more info.
Thanks Ali. That's helpful. In terms of judging the list price, if comps of similar units (perhaps others were just not as newly renovated) were in contract within 30-45 days, would you consider those correctly priced? There is one in building next door that is same size just lower floor and not as newly renovated for example so figuring out how much higher we can go. We're not in a rush but don't want to miss the spring buyers and get stuck in the summer.
Usually when I do an OH by appointment, that is dictated by the building, not by me.
Other than that, I think it depends on the niche in the market. With "starter" listings, I found that an open door OH attracts a lot of people who are new to their search, not yet ready to buy.
For something like you describe, however, the demand is going to be there -- and there's going to be a lot of it. (I have buyers who would spend $3mm uptown, and other buyers who would spend $4mm downtown, and there's nothing in particular to show them). I might ask your broker to do a "brokers' open," just as a dry run, and then a regular OH, and see what bidders you get.
For the pros, what do you see as the pros and cons of an OH versus an OH by appointment? Assume we are talking about a family sized unit in a midsize doorman building in Manhattan in mint condition.
Maybe I'm missing it, but what building?
Hello, can anyone provide some feedback on this building? The maintenance is rather high since the building has no amenities. What is the history of increases? How is the stuff? What is the sublet policy? How many sponsor units? Any information you can provide will be helpful and highly appreciated. Thank you
Latest on this site, a new condo: http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/03/11/ground_zero_mosque_developer_beefs_up_jean_nouvel_condos.php
Hasan - Guilty
Remember this idiot?
Won't be long before large corporations move headquarters east.
Afterall, aren't corporations in play to 'MAXIMIZE SHAREHOLDER VALUE'?
Again, took FOUR YEARS for manhattan RE market to bottom after 1997 market crash.
And our stock crash was bigger... and our RE bubble MUCH bigger.
HimWhoKnows, do you have an education? Your terrible writing style, grammatically incorrect screen name and constantly misusing the variances between their, there and they're is reflective of someone who, at best, has an 8th grade education.
Funny that you should attempt to throw your weight around on an anonymous discussion board.
NY lags because Wall Street lags. Wall Street lags because capital expenditures of other industries drive capital raising activities. So Wall Street doesn't turn up until other industries' fortunes get good enough for them to want to invest in their business.
LICComment, what do you think about all of the school problems in LIC? Does that pretty much mean parents can't raise a family there and when the hipsters come of age they will be sellers and move out: lots of overhang
I think she's on vacation again.
Hey, 10011, where were your parent's ashes spread?
Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Long Island City, ... wasn't there some person in politics who said that all politics is local, but not the water table, that's part of the shared environment? Tipper Gore? Yes, that's who.
When will apt23's predictions about the "Bo" scandal in China, or about the Euro come true?
to my surprise, many readers here not only know there's a China, but even know there's a Mr. Bo in China
but you guys need to know, the reason Bo got sacked is because he tries to limit corruption and promote a milder capitalism, instead of the current extremism preliminary capitalism in china. that's why the corrupted rich leaders heat him so much.
thus, Bo's lost will encourage much more corruption and green lights for fortune transfer, we'll see more rich chinese buying up NY RE
Reallynow, do you like nazism, communism, child prostitutes, re bubbles, and cheating on SATs to get into Harvard?
Really now, you'd like to go back to 2007?
Why am I even bothering with a nazi? Carry on with your child prostitution ring. Hope you make a lot of money.
Apt23 that you wrote "exaggerations" are "not productive", is puzzling. If your sky-is-following take on well, everything, is not exageration then what is it?
Only about 2 months until Riversider's prediction comes true ... or not.
Afraid of my own success and ambition, hungry for cat nip and a clean litter box.
Now there's an ethnicity!!!
A Chinese pussy
If you are what you eat....I'm half Chinese.
So which asset class has outperformed?
"I'm not sure you can even call this a double-dip, because I'm not sure we ever got out of the first dip," says Radar Logic Chief Executive Michael Feder. "Last year I think buyers moved in because prices were so low, but we've seen such a massive inflow of supply because of foreclosures and the big inventory of foreclosures to come. It's really affecting the comfort that buyers have in the prices they're paying."
Thanks! and by the way, "thanks" still means "thanks" or at least I think it still does..
Financeguy might like this
If older people are deregulated, the result is a disaster. Many apartments would need serious renovation and landlords wouldn't even have the money these days to do the renovations en mass, but they'd be displacing too many elderly almost out of spite.
The fact that RS is unavailable to the upper middle class (NY style i.e., over 200k income and 2k rent), probably made the bubble worse than it might have been.
The usual end to a bubble is that potential buyers realize they can get a better deal elsewhere, eg by renting at half the cost.
But even if a buyer recognized that RE prices were out of whack, many affluent families/potential long term tenants saw no realistic rental alternatives and so bought even if they had misgivings about prices. (Didn't CC describe doing this?)
The reason they had no realistic rental alternative is that the market for long term, affluent rentals doesn't work. We don't have a good (non-RS) lease form that does what participants want: (1) Tenant has option but not obligation to stay long term, (2) Landlord, as financing source, pays for capital improvements and assumes risk of major repairs and RE market shifts (better neighborhoods, secular price rises, bubbles, etc) and (3) Rents rise to reflect increased costs including average repairs, but not windfall profits resulting from tenant being committed to a particular apt or general RE market price increases (4) Landlord can remove tenant for non-payment or other good cause, (5) Tenant has an effective remedy (other than moving) for lower than promised quality/maintenance. (The market does do reasonably well in sectors dominated by short term tenants, where rapid turnover gives landlords the right incentive to maintain quality -- e.g., one-BRs for the yuppie singles crowd -- and tenants aren't worried about having to change apts at age 13 or 75.)
RS -- imperfectly -- ameliorates all three problems at least to an acceptable degree.
If they'd had a plausible RS alternative, many might have rented instead of paying silly prices. That might not have been enough to counter all the "RE prices can only go up" hype, but it would have exerted a significant downward pressure.
As to the differences between long term commercial leases and RS:
The key point is the similarity: both are attempts to solve a key problem in rentals, namely how to protect the tenant's need for an option to stay long term, while ensuring that landlords receive an adequate return on capital even as market conditions change, and provide a quality product at a profitable but not extortionate price. Residential leases have the additional problem that normally the landlord, rather than the tenant, is in the best position to assume the risk of unexpected changes in expenses and to do maintenance/improvements in a cost effective way, and to assume the risk of market changes if the tenant needs to move unexpectedly. (Landlords can diversify these risks and make them predictable, therefore cheaper, while tenants ordinarily cannot).
The hardest part of the problem is the interaction between maintenance/improvements and market fluctuations: if tenants are responsible for improvements, they (1) will fear that if they spend money to make the unit better, the landlord will then up their rent and they'll end up paying twice and (2) need to have access to the credit markets without using the apartment as collateral. As a result, landlords usually take this on. But then long term contracts are not attractive to tenants, since the landlord will be inclined to skimp on promised quality once the tenant is locked in.
So the default is short term contracts, but that's a problem, since many people actually want the option of remaining in their home long term. If they act that way -- e.g., by fixing up the apt -- however, they signal to the landlord that it has become a partial monopolist and can jack up the rent without driving them out.
So tenants and landlords act short term even if they want long term. This is the market failure: potential long term tenants and potential long term landlords fail to make a deal.
Coops -- in which the tenants collectively become the landlord, in order to gain economies of scale and diversification while reducing the likelihood of landlord exploitation of incumbent tenants -- are one possible solution to the problem, but they require that tenants have access to the credit markets (which is why they've usually been available only to the relatively well-off). They also have heavy transaction costs, so they don't work as well for medium term tenancies.
RS is another attempt to solve the market failure. Primarily for middle class families who are looking for an option (but not an obligation) to stay long term and for landlords that'd be happy to have long term tenants if they could figure out how to charge them. It is no help to the poor, who need a subsidy that RS doesn't offer.
Instead of negotiating an individual escalation clause as in commercial (and putting the costs of repairs, etc. on the tenant), and instead of creating a tenant owned landlord as in coop, here the escalation clause is negotiated (1) collectively, (2) politically and (3) after the fact. That may seem weird, but each of the parts are actually quite common, and in any event, it clearly works: we have a wider variety of rental housing than most US cities.
In RS, the escalation clause is negotiated politically, collectively, and after the fact. None of three are that unusual, taken separately. After the fact is common in ordinary "supply" contracts under the UCC, banker's bonus contracts, union contracts, etc. Political is common both in minimum standards (minimum wage, FICA, health and safety, zoning) and beyond (all regulated industries -- which at the time of RC included electricity, trucking, RRs, gas lines, telephones, water, airlines, nuclear, police, sewage, fire, insurance, banking, most of education, agricultural commodities, gold, radio and TV airwaves, etc.). Collectively is quite common both formally (unions, corporations, professional standards, regulated industries) and informally (all oligopolies).
In any event, unlike the market rules it replaced, RS does seem to work, in the sense that matters: NYC has a vibrant rental market including for tenants who in most other US cities would not be able to find suitable rental housing.
30yrs: Don't know if the analysis on this thread has been rigorous or in depth, but in any event it was about RS, not RC.
That said, I think you are misrepresenting the pre-vacancy-decontrol RC rules. You seem to be describing the initial enactment of RC in the 1940s(?) when, presumably, some people who had signed short-term leases suddenly discovered that the new statute was changing their terms (was there really no warning that this was a political possibility? I don't know anything about how RC came to be passed).
But for 30 years or so after that, when RC apartments turned over, the new tenant signed a lease. Or so I'm told by people who think they did it. Are they misremembering?
And today paper talks about people who are getting past the statute of limitations and may get their home free and clear despite not making payments for 5 years.
W 81, I figured out the difference between our numbers. We both did same math, only difference is I have inflation in the period apartments drop by 20%. You assume that inflation only begins after the drop. The inflation didn't go away just because the apartment price went down. Given that actually took more like 2 years, maybe I should be adding two years of it.
That puts the breakeven at 15-16 years at 4%, 11-12 at 5%
But, I agree with you, it is not that big a difference, and the point is made either way.
emma63: Sorry I missed your question. I think somewhereelse explained the calculation pretty well. I should have explained the starting points (100 and 80 respectively) when I posted the numbers.
somewhereelse: I think you're comparing numbers from different years. I'm not sure, and again, it doesn't really matter. The takeaway message is the same either way.
Ah, no worries... those numbers are just the "index" of prices.
100% is the starting point. 80% is where housing prices are after a 20% decline.
We then took the 100% base and grew it at 2% to show what just inflation would do.
Then we took the 80% and grew it at 4-5% a year.
To see where it crossed, as the "break-even" point.
Thank you. I did understand that, I just wasn't sure what the specific numbers represented (100.00 102.00 104.04). Again, apologies if this is something everyone but me knows, just trying to learn.
Any new comps from West81 or others? UWS?
215 West 88th Street (Merrion Condo), low floor "G" units with sponsor renovations. 73.4% increase from the 2009 low, for a unit one floor closer to the street.
---------- Recorded Sales ----------|---------- Previous Listings ----------
09/09/2014 #3G $2,774,731 11.2% | . $2,495,000 3 beds 2 baths 1,676 SF
08/18/2009 #4G $1,600,000 -15.6% |↓ $1,895,000 3 beds 2 baths 1,676 SF
Correction: The Sellers' acquisition date for 90 RSD #11F was 2006, not 2005. The 2005 estate-sale buyers resold without renovating.
90 Riverside Drive #11F: Inward-facing classic six in a prime coop, with a pleasantly neutral renovation that hits all the key requirements without any frills. Resold 62.1% above 2005 estate-condition acquisition price and 16.2% above ask. Daunting price for a viewless RSD six. The low point for this line was the sale of #15F for $1.53MM in late 2008. That one needed renovation, but it also had significantly better light.
03/01/2005 Previous Sale recorded $1,800,000
02/23/2006 Previous Sale recorded $1,860,000
06/06/2014 Listed by Brown Harris Stevens $2,595,000
06/30/2014 Listing entered contract $2,595,000
09/10/2014 Sale recorded $3,015,000
41 West 82nd Street #1C: Modestly proportioned 3BR/2BA on the ground floor of a well-run 38-unit coop in the middle of a prime block. Renovated prior to 2012 sale, with a few subsequent cosmetic enhancements. Resold 38.6% above 2012 acquisition price, and 15.6% above ask. More evidence of tight supply in the $1.5-2.5MM range - especially units in move-in condition with sought-after school assignments.
10/07/2011 Previously Listed by Jan Asher, LREB $1,695,000
11/18/2011 Delisted by Jan Asher, LREB. Last priced at $1,445,000
12/01/2011 Previously Listed by Fenwick Keats Real Estate $1,445,000
05/07/2012 Fenwick Keats Real Estate Listing sold Last priced at $1,350,000
06/13/2012 Previous Sale recorded $1,334,926
05/16/2014 Listed by Douglas Elliman $1,600,000
06/04/2014 Listing entered contract
09/15/2014 Sale recorded $1,850,000
This far into the bull market ... still bullish over the next 12 months?
tell us about your family.
Here's to you C0C0. You and your family.
that's not new either, is it?
do you have any new material?
No, unfortunately it seems to be occurring for many generations in your family.
What if we tax consumption rather than income?
Phasing out the mortgage tax deduction is not the answer.
The middle class needs LESS taxes, not more.
The only fair solution is to make ALL housing payments (rent/mortgage/maintenance/condo association dues) tax deductable. Period.
bob420: Your thinking is correct, as is illustrated by the information NWT provided. Coops and condos are taxed on the same basic methodology. What's more, condos are more likely to benefit from abatements like 421a, which would make coop taxes look very high compared to certain new developments. Aside from that, there shouldn't be major differences, on the whole.
And to my point about property owners carrying an unjust amount of the burden during the recession -
Clearly our property values where off at least 20% in 2009 and 2010 so why did total property tax receipts go up by so much those years? My rents were down, oil expense off the charts, vacancy at all time highs for me, bad debt at all time highs, length of time to evict nonpaying tenants went from 5 months to 12 months etc etc - and still the City raised our taxes.
Now that the recession is nearing it's end/ended the City should stop squeezing us so hard. We picked up the slack - we did our part - we took one for the team - thank us and then show your appreciation by reducing the amount of taxes we pay.
From the Indepedendent Budget Office for 2012
Single family homes account for 49% of market value and pay 15% of all property taxes.
Multifamily rental building are 24% of value and pay 40% of all of the taxes.
Here's a short article about the issue from 2011.
Dollar is way up, maybe this changes the picture?
So you're suggesting that the Times RE people are stupid, rather than corrupt? Possible. Or it could be both.
With Eyn you don't really have corrupt as an option, so you're pretty much left with stupid.
Anyway, I don't know why Eyn is wasting his time helping Europeans buy in NY. He should be helping New Yorkers buy in Tokyo where their dollars are worth 82 times as much. I also hear that Harare is nice this time of year and the USD does crazy far in Zimbabwe.
> I don't know who's stupider: Mr. Eyn for saying it or the NYT for publishing it.
or the foreigner that feels the need for an address in manhattan and hence pays for our services: thank you snob!
NYT: For Europeans, with the euro trading at 1.34 to the dollar, “their money is worth 34 percent more now; it is a very safe bet for them,” Mr. Eyn said.
I don't know who's stupider: Mr. Eyn for saying it or the NYT for publishing it.
Any foreign buying weakness because of the Dollar's strength?
NYRENewbie, Manhattan real estate today is all about Orson Welles.
stevejhx, your posts are always "out of this world". Thanks for bringing a smile to my face. Wasn't Whitley Striber a New Yorker, way ahead of the curve in showing his apartment to aliens?
Yes, cliff, this will be Orson Welles' "Bidding Wars of the World" again.
You though it was scary over the radio!
I'm not sure about Martian buyers, but many brokers I've dealt showed signs of being from some other planet.
Thanks Primer. I have been told that it will take several days since it is not a demolition and retiling of a single area but, rather, of a couple of patches. And, obviously, we need someone someone who can do "surgical strikes" and not damage the existing tile if possible. I've been told that I should find someone who specializes in restoration work rather than a "normal" tile person so I don't think that would work. It's not that the tile is so precious or anything, but it is the original and it would be a shame not to fix it now that we can. Any ballpark sense of what it might cost?
That is a very tough question as it might not be an easy task and then to find someone at a reasonable price? Your best bet is to find a contractor that is already working in the building as it really is not worth it for most contractors to come in for a one day project.
We are lucky enough to have a prewar bathroom (circa 1928) that still has all of the original fixtures in place and in wonderful condition. Unfortunately, there are about 40 tiles that had been replaced by a previous owner. The good news is that we have been able to obtain the same vintage tile from a neighbor who just completed a gut renovation.
We would like to restore the bathroom using these vintage tiles which means that we need someone with the talent to carefully remove existing "modern" tile and install the vintage. Does anyone have a suggestion for a tile person with the ability to do this type of restoration at a "fair" price in NYC? Any idea of what a "fair" price might be for this work? Thank you
Thx Snezan! Not familiar with elliman's EDGE tool, but definitely curious to see what other innovations lie in hiding out there. I know there are a few!
seems similar to our EDGE buyer's tool. I didn't want to pay for it but it looks like a great site Urbandigs!
Kyle, wow, thank you for the amazingly kind words on the UD toolkit! Its wonderful to hear and see the tools start to be adopted by the industry. Its been a looooong journey indeed! Great stuff still to come. Stay Tuned.
Many thanks again for the great review. Love your tone on transparency, as we feel the same way!! Let the innovations continue to help both the consumer and professional!
Have been exploring www.urbandigs.com -- the completely re-engineered site that Noah Rosenblatt has been developing forever. It launched a couple of months ago I think, and in a word, its incredible. The site is, quite simply, a stunning achievement. There wasn’t much of a learning curve. It was 95% intuitive, and I quickly figured out the rest.
You can generate comp data with a few clicks and using all sorts of metrics that you customize. The site will tell you what an apartment within a particular building is worth based on building comps taking into account things like differences in floors, views and renovations. You can compare apartment values in a building to the neighborhood as a whole--or any number of neighborhoods. And you can see what the market is doing overall in seconds. Reports are available that you tailor with a couple of clicks and you can see 6 month, 1 year, multi year trends in sales, inventory, days on market, etc.
Graphically the site is impressive in how easy to use it is and how easy it is to find the tools and what you are looking for. Plus, it all works--fast.
We've come a LONG WAY since Urban Digs real estate inventory chart on 2009! This is an entirely new level of transparency in the RE market place. If the primary reason for market inefficiency is unequal access to information, this site has to potential to seriously improve the NY RE market. If Streeteasy was the opening shot in the war against the self-serving ways big brokerages used to operate, then this site is the nail in the coffin for the old ways. Consumers win.
So I had the 'pleasure' of walking by this place this weekend. Who let this horrid building get put up? Alpine NJ mcmansion taste.
hehe. I was thinking the same thing seeing it on Curbed this weekend.
worse than that....it sold for $3.2m when the house next door sold for 2m (or there abouts) and was totally livable with tenants etc.
don't know what they are smoking but if they were stupid enough to pay 3.2m then they are stupid enough to think its worth 6m
and yes I'm a little jealous as I offered 1.5m and was turned down.......but if asked again today....I still think 1.5-1.7m is appropriate, its a full gut renovation so no way this sells for more than the 3.2m the last sale went for.....
Why on earth is this property on the market for $6.2M? It sold last year for $3.2M and no work was done to the house. It needs a totally renovation. Crazy.