2 Bedroom apartment in Harlem

My favorite scenario would be Apt 606 or Penthouse 7 in The Hamilton on 145th. I find that block near the park and pathmark/NYSC/Sbux particularly charming and convenient (ABCD/M3). I love the views from Penthouse 7 and the fact that it is on the PH floor, but 606 is much more space and the second bedroom is rent-able.
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it seems to me that you are able to find a small but livable 2 bedroom. why buying a 1 bedroom then? i get it, the neighborhood is better. imho buying a smaller place that you might need in 5 years is not efficient. why not waiting till a 2 bedroom on your price range shows up in Hamilton Heights? prices are not going up, rents either... you will lose $ by getting anxious and grabbing the 1st thing you can afford. if prices go down ... say 10% you are underwater. i'd find a nice rent stabilized close to your school and save for a good downpayment while $ keep on dropping.

hey, the story with the Beacon, who told you that it was cause mortgages fell through? i heard that it was the prices not being as enticing as similar lottery winners used to get (about 1 third of market prices) and almost no maintenance. lottery winners got great deals say, 7 years ago, that included the possibility of flipping almost right away for a profit. that was not the case lately. neither the price discount was so juicy nor the maintenance ultra low nor the possibility to sell almost right away... so many walked away from their lottery winning tickets.

notadmin, we have a 2 bedroom in our price range in hamilton heights. apartment 606 is listed at 399k and a friend of mine who is a broker said he would recommend negotiating 10% off of it. the only reason we like PH7 is because it has empire state views and it's on a penthouse floor. neither of these things are of utmost importance, as a 634 sq ft space is not practical for us. mostly, we're struggling with the fact that Beacon Towers is less money down AND cheaper, so more affordable in the long run, but apartment 606 on 145th street is also 2 BR and slightly less affordable, but in a better, more convenient location. it would be harder for us to come up with down payment, though completely do-able. with beacon towers, we would have lower monthly and less up-front cost.

let's toss the 1 br out as it's not big enough and the views will not help you with the amount of space.

now you're left with 2 similar apartments with 12% price difference. one is located next to everything and seems to be a safe location, the other has nothing around and is in a marginal location. in real estate, it's always location, location, location. there's a reason why there's a price difference and that reason will be there forever. when you'll be ready to sell, you'll have a lot more people willing to go to 145th then 138th.

the real issue with 145th is the income restriction. it seems very strange that there's the same restriction on a 1 Br and 2 Br, they usually differ. otherwise, go for location and size or just rent for another year or two, get a larger down payment and buy then. you're looking in an area that has/will take the biggest hit in terms of prices.

the other outstanding issue is that you're going into this with your boyfriend/partner and that can present additional risks as you have almost no income.

"the other outstanding issue is that you're going into this with your boyfriend/partner and that can present additional risks as you have almost no income."

yep, but you still make payments as if you had (i'm taking for granted here that you have a small stipend). if you split, the house is his? where do you go? my view is that it's better for you guys to wait till you have your own income, a downpayment, ... and get full acknowledgment that a lot of your $ goes to fund this purchase if you split. issue here is that the mentality of super stretching ("will sublet one of the 2 bedrooms to help pay the mtg" for ex) might have made some sense during the bubble. but now you are literally paid not to move a finger and wait.

are you 100% sure you stay in nyc after you finish your phd?

kd - our main reason at the time for not going beacon was related to how long it would take to close. we had a firm date at which we would have to vacate the place where we were living. In hindsight though, I do agree that beacon's prices should have been dropped. We were looking at an affordable unit that was only dropped 5-10% below its initial offering, which was in early 2008 I think. They did start to drop the market rate units to more realistic pricse. Also the maintenance was very high.

We ended up purchasing a 2bedroom in a duplex condo near striver's row. It's not a new building. I like this area better, Beacon is somewhat isolated for now. It's really the only newer building on that street, so it sticks out like a sore thumb. I don't think its a dangerous area, but I wouldn't blame you for feeling unsafe.

We got a 2bed because we will have kids relatively soon, and do not have to relocate for awhile. We looked at some similar affordable buildings near madison and 119th(?) I think which were nice. They have the 190K restriction but prices did not work for us.

ab: we aren't worried about my income. firstly, we will rent out the second bedroom as we wish in order to help absorb our costs. secondly, i have a trust fund for school, etc., which will pay for my half for now, and i also make a few hundred dollars per week off the books teaching private lessons.

i agree with throwing the 1 bedroom out. the income restriction at 145th is for either the 1 bed or 2 bed, and it's 192k/year

we don't really want to wait a year or two, because the market has already started to become active again and the first time homebuyer incentives will have expired.

notadmin: it's a Doctor of Music (DM) degree, and I am originally from NYC. As a musician, I will not be leaving NYC until it is for paid engagements. I have not posted here in order to hear whether or not we should buy an apartment together. I wanted to hear thoughts on area and prices. the logistics of the situation is a discussion we have spent several hours on. no need for it here. My initial post contains all the facts of the situation.

"notadmin: it's a Doctor of Music (DM) degree, and I am originally from NYC. As a musician, I will not be leaving NYC until it is for paid engagements."

oh i see. somehow i took for granted it was a phd in science with a stipend and the whole tenure track. do DM candidates get a stipend like other phd candidates (this is just to satisfy my curiosity)

good luck!

Central 145th is a better location and that area has pretty much so already crossed the line of doubt over 'will it change.' I remember looking at several places there when I was looking to buy in 2008/2009 and liking it very much, although I ended up finding a condo over on Riverside. While I do still prefer my apartment, my block, my building, and my my maintenance fees....I think that area is a bit more developed and has more going for it right now.

If you're not worried about the market going down much more (anyone's guess at point, and don't place too much emphasis on the people on Street Easy), then I'd go for the 2br on 145th. Sounds nice.

Coops, even in harlem, make it hard to rent out to anyone, ever. I personally would never rent in a coop bldg. chew on that.

"Coops, even in harlem, make it hard to rent out to anyone, ever."

neither those that are HDFC? i've seen some rental adds of those.

I´ll appreciate if you guys tell me why is central 145th better than 138th and Lenox. Is it safer? I think 138th is nice and residential...

"My boyfriend and I are looking to purchase an apartment together. "

MISTAKE NUMBER ONE. Do not buy property with a "boyfriend". Unless you're married, this is a very bad idea. Ask any lawyer if you don't believe me.

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"He has a full time job and makes approximately 100k/year ... Our price range is in the 300s."

How much is "approximately 100K"? $140K? 125K? 95K?

Assuming he makes exactly $100K/year (and as a board member I don't care about his being a "rising star" blah blah blah -- just look around you, there are plenty of people who were "rising stars" who are now trying to get by on $430/week unemployment checks. I care only about what he's making TODAY), at BEST you can afford $250K.

You can't afford any of the properties you listed.

My advice: stay where you are with your boyfriend. When you have a husband (and a job), then you can start thinking of buying.

NYCMatt - Judgemental much? The poster is asking for advice on neighborhood not whether she should buy.

While in many cases it's not a good idea to buy with a boyfriend, I know lot of people for whom this wasn't true. I also know people who were super judgemental about people who bought/did things with boyfriends - and 10 years later the couple that was just dating is together and the couple that was married is divorced. Of course, there is some legal protection to being married, but there are ways to protect yourself even still. The poster isn't asking your opinion on this.

Also, she has a trust fund which gives her some liquidity until she is out of school and finds a job. So $300k may not be too much.

Kennethd - My advice is to stick to the neighborhood you feel more comfortable in. In developing neighorhoods even a few blocks can make a difference.

Matt: "MISTAKE NUMBER ONE. Do not buy property with a "boyfriend". Unless you're married, this is a very bad idea. Ask any lawyer if you don't believe me."

hopeful buyer previously said: I have not posted here in order to hear whether or not we should buy an apartment together. I wanted to hear thoughts on area and prices.
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Matt, i like that you tell it like it is. hopeful buyer is from the area anyway, so in case they split, the new address is not going to be "under the bridge" as it could be for a phd candidate from abroad without a w2 and with only a tiny stipend nobody accepts as income. and without family members to provide a temporary couch/roof... that was what i took for granted (a phd candidate from abroad as most of them are by now). anyway, the other party is gonna have you more "by the b*lls" with this arrangement, but that's a common risk in most "arrangements" unfortunately. as i see it, it's gonna be his house and he's subletting space (to you) to help pay his mortgage.

"as i see it, it's gonna be his house and he's subletting space (to you) to help pay his mortgage."

Good luck trying to get this past a co-op board.

If he can't pay the mortgage on his own, my vote would be a "no".

Matt, Why do you assume that kennethd is a woman who can (or who even wants) to get married? If kennethd is a man, your advice that he wait until he can has a husband might well mean never buying. Sheesh!!

If kennethd is a man, my advice still stands.

Being gay myself, I know the lingo.

If you're still calling him your "boyfriend", you're not ready to jointly buy property.

Male couples who are committed ("married") call their significant other their "husband" or "partner".

kenneth, did your guy offer to pay the mortgage so that you can live rent free and save those $ for your own rainy day?

Well then, you would be wrong, as we are long-term partners, but your judgment made it impossible to see past the term "boyfriend"

Second of all, he can afford all of the apartments we have been looking into without my help.

I guess we will just go about our business then. I figured I might get some helpful answers but wow, rude people around here.

sorry this wasn't productive for you. for the most part, most of us are bearish in terms of where prices and rents are heading. but i guess you have the sense of urgency of those that believe the mkt is recovering fast. the tax credit is great for a cheap house (say, 80k-100k... in the midwest) but in expensive areas it doesn't represent so much (it'd be 2.5% discount on sth priced at $350k).

it wouldn't surprise me if prices go down 10% next year (especially in the areas you are looking). that's enough to eat you tax credit, your downpayment and to pay for 1 year of rent. we will only know a year from now. good luck!

btw, i have no idea how/if assets get divided if you are not married and split. could you put your name in the deed (even though not in the mtg) given that you are going to pay your fair share of the mtg?

Since I assume your combined income will see a significant increase once you graduate, why not wait until then and buy something better?

"Second of all, he can afford all of the apartments we have been looking into without my help."

Not on a $100K salary he can't.

"Well then, you would be wrong, as we are long-term partners, but your judgment made it impossible to see past the term "boyfriend""

I'm sorry, Kenneth. I'm all for gay marriage, monogamy, and building a family, but I've been around the block in the Gayborhood for far too long to believe in the viability of "long-term" relationships in which at least one of the parties refers to his partner only as his "boyfriend".

I sincerely hope my "judgement" about your relationship is off-base.

rude is a better word.

Kenneth, now it's time to get over yourself.

what does that even mean? get over what? tell me, what am i getting over? i'd love to know.

OP, please keep in mind that a coop will, most likely, not allow you to sublet a bedroom in your apartment. You can definitely do it without asking permission, but if you get caught, there could be penalties and bad blood. only immediate relatives are allowed to occupy the apartment with you.

when you're looking to purchase, please do not even consider having a roomate.

ab, apparently that's not the case in most places in harlem. every building we've toured (many), we've mentioned it to the broker or checked the co-op website for its regulations and most places have given positive responses. i can see it being a different case in a neighborhood such as the UWS, UES, etc., but in Harlem it hasn't been a problem.

"we aren't worried about my income. firstly, we will rent out the second bedroom as we wish in order to help absorb our costs. secondly, i have a trust fund for school, etc., which will pay for my half for now, and i also make a few hundred dollars per week off the books teaching private lessons."

I would love to be a fly on the wall watching the lucky co-op board who gets THIS board package ...

"ab, apparently that's not the case in most places in harlem. "

oh boy. realwhores will tell you anything to get your $. don't sign anything till you get written confirmation that subletting is allowed without restrictions. i get it that you both are really happy with the idea of buying, hope it works for you both. just be careful. in bronx rooming houses are common even in the grand concourse. $125 to $150 per week per room. that doesn't mean you are allowed to do it.

i would check what the proprietary lease states before taking their word for it. most stipulate what i said above. have it in writing that they are not following the proprietary lease rule.

you should also consider that the current board may not follow this rule, but the new board may. i've seen lots of "old" boards removed via vote in past 5 years.

If I were you, I'd stick to a building close to 2/3 express line. I would stay away from any building that is not sold yet more than 90%. I would stay away from buildings that are known to have buyers pull out of contracts like 5th Ave condo or Grace Court. I'm not familiar with Beacon, but if there is controversy, stay away.

I thought I saw a listing for 2br/1bath around 850 sq ft coop at the renaissance coop on 116th st. For $250k. I bet you could put in a bid for $225k and get it.

"every building we've toured (many), we've mentioned it to the broker or checked the co-op website for its regulations and most places have given positive responses. "

Again, brokers will say anything to get the sale. I've toured open houses in my own building and heard brokers give flat-out wrong information about our building to prospective buyers -- brokers who've actually sold apartments in our building, no less.

And regardless of what the "building" posts on its website, until you get it in writing in the proprietary lease, you can't bank on any response, no matter how "positive" they sound.

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"95% financing"

After the past 16 months, I can't believe people are still even uttering this phrase, much less considering it as a good buying strategy.

Look, Kenneth, I'm not trying to be rude. Really. But in case you haven't noticed, there are people who "started their lives together" 20 years ago and who have substantial career tenure who are losing their incomes and facing foreclosure right now. This is not the time for " two young people just starting their lives together" to over-extend themselves into properties they really can't afford.

From what you've posted, you've suggested that it will be a struggle to come up with anything but a 5% down payment. What about your post-closing liquidity?

Let's assume you'll try to buy Apartment 5A at Beacon Towers. Assuming it's the same size as Apartment 3A that I saw online, the monthly maintenance is $744.00.

Financing 95% of $342K would give you a mortgage payment of $1980.12 for a 30-year fixed-rate of 5.5% (this includes a $135.38 PMI charge, since you're financing more than 80%).

Your combined mortgage and maintenance would be $2724.12. Even if the board doesn't require it, you really SHOULD have at least six months' worth of mortgage and maintenance in the bank after closing. That would be nearly $16,500 -- nearly the same as your 5% down payment.

I appreciate the desire for "two young people just starting their lives together" to want to build a life and buy a home. I just don't see why you're so anxious to over-extend yourselves and rush into a purchase before you've even accumulated an appropriate down payment. And assuming that you could rent out the second bedroom as part of your affordability equation is unwise at best, and is prohibited by most co-op boards regardless of the neighborhood (and regardless of what the broker tells you).

OK, I'm done being Mean Mommy.

Yeah, no you CANNOT rent unfettered in MOST bldgs in harlem, period. Don't believe the brokers, dummy! You have to get confirmation in writing from the board. They may wink and nod, but trust me, its the same in harlem as everywhere else. Board approval is usually much EASIER, but still required.

As for Matt's negativity on the boyfriend thing - I have to agree. you and you lover need something in writing between yourselves, or better yet go to CT and get married and then register said marriage in NY. Because when you break up (and someday you will), your "rent" will in fact turn out to have been RENT, and your lover will own the apartment you will be out on the street.

I have seen this happen many a time with the gays. And like Matt I am one of them too...

"I have seen this happen many a time with the gays."

Even sadder still, I know of a gay couple together for 25 years, where one of the guys was left out in the cold after the death of his partner because everything was in HIS partner's name.

Yep -- you guessed it. The homophobic relatives got legal possession of the apartment they bought "together", and he was given 30 days to vacate.

EXACTLY!!!! kenneth, if your guy respects you and wants the best for you, you shouldn't even have to ask him to include you in the DEED. i wouldn't have the nerve to ask you to pay rent if you are not included.

besides, you should (or him) inherit his part in case of death (mutual beneficiaries). i also heard of cases in which the family absolutely disregards the rights of the partner, just cause they CAN get away with it.

"you and you lover need something in writing between yourselves, or better yet go to CT and get married and then register said marriage in NY"

if you do, could you get health insurance through his job? that could be great for you as a musician. (great savings along the way if so).

"Yep -- you guessed it. The homophobic relatives got legal possession of the apartment they bought "together", and he was given 30 days to vacate."

That doesn't make the relatives homophobic... just financilly greedy. The same thing happens frequently in heterosexual relationships when there is no will.

I have not read the whole post but have you considered The Rennaisance, 130 Lenox Avenue. This is on 116th, nice building, much nicer area and same prices you are looking at.

I skimmed thro the posts I see someone mentioned the 250k apt at the Rennaisance. I was curious so went to try to look at this and the emails bounce and you can't contact the sellers so my guess is that it's not available anymore..

Mimi, I do think 145th may be a tad safer than 138th and Lenox but it's mostly because it's a more trafficked area. You're thinking of Strivers', I believe? It's a lovely area but a bit deserted at night, in my experience. But for anything like that, I would check the crime stats (my impression re: 145th v. 130s could be wrong), and then just go experience the block at different times and see how you feel about it. kennethd, I'm not sure about the finances of your proposed purchase but if you want to do it, you and your partner should be denominated joint tenants with a right of survivorship on the deed. And I do highly recommend the Hamilton Heights neighborhood around 145th. Good luck!

kennethd - I know your boyfriend is using his income to get the mortgage, but I figured I would chime in.

We had some difficulties when we tried to get a mortgage. I am PhD student and am paid via stipend with no W2s. BOA would not allow my income at all, while Wells Fargo said that it would not be a problem. BOA also was saying that my job was "temporary". Just be careful of this situation. BOA had my documents for a long time before they actually looked at them and realized my income would be a problem. We ended up only using my wife's income, and we were very close to the line on a freddie/fannie mortgage. They actually have changed the rules since we first applied, and if we applied now, we would not qualify.

Also, a preapproval is really not worth anything, and takes like 20 seconds to get.

and yes, brokers will say pretty much anything. Especially ones who are trying to sell a new building.

OP, did you look at these?
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/469071-coop-502-west-141st-street-hamilton-heights-new-york
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/450512-coop-507-west-140th-street-hamilton-heights-new-york

While the view is clearly not as spectacular as from the PH on 145th, they both have 2 BR's, though the 141st St one feels a bit more flimsy in general, but the 140th St one has 2 real BR...and an eat-in-kitchen...

...okay, I just realized that you looked at placed with less downpayment, so those two above might not be valid for you, since still 20% needed.

NYCMatt,

"Assuming he makes exactly $100K/year (and as a board member I don't care about his being a "rising star" blah blah blah -- just look around you, there are plenty of people who were "rising stars" who are now trying to get by on $430/week unemployment checks. I care only about what he's making TODAY), at BEST you can afford $250K."

Can you please elaborate on how are you estimating the $250K affordability based on a $100K income? I am 29 years old and I fall in the $110K income bracket myself. I was looking at 400-500K range for a large 1BR (700-850sf) with 100K in savings, but looking at your comments it seems I'll have to scale down my expectations or wait till I reach a certain income level.

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Pretzel