East Village and Williamsburg in 10 Years?

There are a lot of great places to eat in the east village. I think the pricing is insane but much of that has to do with bloomberg's zoning decisions. very little product in the east village.

Max on b is the best

East Village is a pain in the ass to get into and out of.

Williamsburg is and always will be a toilet.

Matt, yes, Washington heights is a superior location. convenient in every way

Marco , max is great. the soha outpost is too. we had brunch at frank Sunday. also great. the whole area is full of good food. but xunta decamped, Williamsburg ironically.

The Red Head is amazing. Great food and drink and not too expensive.
I think the East Village can continue to thrive but there should be some effort to make it more accessible. I read that 8th street crosstown bus was in line for cancellation...that makes absolutely no sense when there are no trains east of 1st avenue and some of the other buses (such as the one that runs up Avenue C to Bellvue) are extremely unreliable.
Really like the East Village though, one of the last truly diverse areas in Manhattan. Probably would have moved there if I wasn't obsessed with convenient subways (wouldn't do Sutton Place either).

there are many factors that have contributed to the east village being what it is. inconvenience is definitely one of those things. but the east village is quite large and in terms of living is still kind of a block by block situation, so there are nice locations not that far from union square transportation. it might be a trade off, for me, but others might actually prefer it.

a great space in the east village, and sadly few ever become available (at a price remotely sane), might just get me to move.

aboutready, sadly sadly sadly.

Why is sadly the most used word in your vocabulary?

East Village in 10 years will continue to improve as a neighborhood. Better goods and services, less riff-raff.
Williamsburg in 10 years...how can I put this...any day it's gonna improve...any day now. the EDGE, still unsold refuses to lower it's asks.

Interesting that you guys are so pro-EV. I've lived there for a long time and there are many things I love about it, but lately it has seemed sort of run down and empty. Walk down Avenue A and you'll see a ton of empty storefronts (and I can remember all the coffeeshops, restaurants and stores that used to be in them). The economy has definitely hit this place hard. But on the flip side, the nabe is at a crossroads - prices have edged up enough that the sort of people who used to live here before can't afford it any more and they're being replaced with an entirely different crowd.

So I think it will be interesting to see how this plays out ten years down the road. If those former-tenements will come down and the EV will become much more family-oriented or if the tanking market will keep the place cheap and the heroin addicts supplied.

2Dollar, despite the East Village's recent troubles, I think it's well-positioned to do well in the long-term. The major difference (IMHO) between it and Williamsburg is the quality of its older housing stock. Yes, there are many tenements and walk-ups, but in many cases those buildings have good bones or have been well maintained. It's the one thing that could continue to push it towards the West Village in terms of desirability and aesthetics. Many have lamented the reduced grit that the area was always known for (and I miss it a bit myself), but that trend probably favors property values in the long run. As for Williamsburg, I think it's also well-positioned, despite the inventory situation - yes, the restaurants are great, but almost everything else is in place for the neighborhood as well. The only major concerns are public green space (to be addressed somewhat with Bushwick Inlet Park, hopefully sooner than later) and transportation congestion (again, the extension of the V train over the bridge should help things a bit).

I live in the EV and while there are a few vacant stores on Ave A, the neighborhood seems to be thriving. Weekends are packed all the time with the young party crowd, and the new playground in Tompkins as well as the renovated Y on 14th and 1st are big hits with the family set. I love Max as well! Such good italian and so cheap! Definitely the best thing about it is the lack of the new glass/steel lux highrises a la Chelsea style....I love the look of old New York and the EV still has it. The only "negative" I have heard is from families who are looking for 2 bedrooms/apparently there arent many. I have no knowledge of the truth of this, but just what Ive heard.

2 dollar, you're blowing my mind. you must mean "white family oriented" because the EV is one of the most residential parts of the city with tons of families and has always been. UGLY NEW CONSTRUCTION made of steel and glass that completely clashes with the existing infrastructure is an eyesore and an insult, and is not wanted in this neighborhood by the vast majority of the existing population. mom and pop stores getting replaced by chain stores is a tragedy and is destroying the history and character of the east village. alphabet city is lined with BANKS now b/c they're the only ones who can afford the robber baron landlord prices who do nothing but sell the soul out of the place for every dollar they can get. alphabet city is basically getting staving off real estate rape on a daily basis right now. all those empty store fronts were mom and pops who were priced out. don't you get it? the reason there is almost no inventory in the east village and prices are at a premium is because it's charm, residential qualities, history, authenticity, edge, and small town feel make it a highly desirable home. then people like you move in and could care less about the history of the place and you just want everything to change to cater to your yuppie sensibilities. people like you have no culture whatsoever and you are turning not only the east village but all of manhattan into a giant strip mall. then once the whole place is sanitized, commercialized and basically devoid of its soul, you say "oh there's no edge here anymore" and move on to pillage the next authentic nabe. first you lose the authenticty, then you lose even the image of authenticty when the whole things gets out of control and gains momentum. the same exact thing is happening in williamsburg and will continue to happen throughout of all brooklyn and already happened in soho if new residents don't make some effort to actually understand and assimiliate into the existing structure and culture rather than mowing it down and rebuilding it to their liking. it's like the people who destroy farmland all over the world to make a quick buck instead of using sustainable practices to conserve our land. it's the consumerist maniac attitude pushed by greedy MNC's and corrupt governments all over the world that says "forget the future, ignore the past, me me me" that is destroying not only the east village but the planet at large. i recommend "selling the lower east side" for more information on this topic. have a nice day.

Bjw, that was very interesting, thanks.

Glamma, umm... Wow, you're hilarious. So I'm to blame for the banks and yuppies? Hey it's cute how you've totally misunderstood me with your college essay. I've been in this neighborhood for twenty years, long enough to see that the East Village you fantasize about no longer exists. I'm sort of curious why an enraged anti-capitalist would be on a message board about real estate purchases... Then again, whatever you have to say, well I've probably heard it all before. Listen, my only word of advice is that some day you have to grow up and move on from that little studio you moved into after college. It's an adult thing to want to buy a home, to put your money into a worthwhile investment. People can get stuck in their cheap little rentals and never push on to their next stage of life. Don't let it happen to you.

Here's one of the recent articles that made me think about the empty commercial spaces. I've known a few of these business owners and it's not solely high rents, but the lack of customers that has driven some of these places out of business.

There Are 21 Empty Storefronts Along Avenue A
http://evgrieve.com/2010/01/there-are-21-empty-storefronts-along.html

glamma, well said. i've seen too many interesting neighbs turn into yuppie heavens.

glamma, it's obviously a sensitive topic, but I think that rant was a wee-bit over the top and your anger is misdirected. There's a lot of empty rhetoric on the internet about this stuff, and I think we'd all be better served by trying to put all our heads together to make this work, rather than point fingers and draw battle lines.

I'd also like to point out that no where was I advocating for any change to the East Village, yuppie-consumerist anti-Mom and Pop or otherwise, I am simply asking what people predict will happen to the neighborhood in the next ten years. Because change is inevitable.

Most of you seemed to understand that.

one of the long term challenges with Evillage will always be... the projects. Gentrification always becomes much more difficult anywhere near it, and as you move further east, there is a LOT of it.

sorry 2 dollar, yes i did come on too strong, it is a sensitive topic. i don't live in a studio btw, i live in a 2br that i bought, and when i did rent it was a 1000 sf loft in 2002. i am an enraged anti-capitalist, but i'm also a native new yorker who is extremely interested in real estate. you are a fan of new development in the east village and if you think the empty storefronts are there because the east village is "run down" you are wrong. these landlords do everything they can to get out the old guys and jack up the rents, pure and simple. what do you think it means when the empty storefronts put up signs that say "LOST OUR LEASE." the same thing happens with tenants, for the same reason; landlords control the very demographics of the city more than anything else, a lot of the people that move to the east village these days WOULD rather have a GAP on avenue B than an independent bookstore, and yes their preferences take a heavy toll on the existing businesses.
extremely funny for you to post the EV thread where it was unanimously agreed that this situation is due to the greed of the landlords, including by ME where i commented on on Jan 11th. I'll happily post for all.

19 COMMENTS:

Curt said...
Yes but now that Bloomberg is nixing Salt these should be rented soon. Mark my words Salt today Pepper tomorrow. All the spice of the city is being drained from us.
JANUARY 11, 2010 8:15 AM

Anonymous said...
Landlords have to be warehousing. There's no other explanation. I can't believe anyone thinks that Ray's tiny closet space is worth $4,000 a month, let alone the 5K this management lady claims someone will pay for the space. We all have eyes to see and read with and we know what's going on with the economy, crazy management lady.

methinks landlords are hoarding places in anticipation of the next financial boom. Good luck with that plan.
JANUARY 11, 2010 9:18 AM

Anonymous said...
The commercial r/e disaster is now upon us. Watch out below...
JANUARY 11, 2010 10:36 AM

dmbream said...
RE: Bowery Lane Bicycles

"I hope these landlords realize that some cash is better than no cash."

That's what I say. Sign some short term leases, right?

Apart from anecdotes, any historical reference on the typical number of vacancies on these respective avenues?

Grieve-

Feel like bundling up and doing the same exercise up 1st Ave?

;-)
JANUARY 11, 2010 12:16 PM

EV Grieve said...
@curt. I think Bloomy will target condiments next. How I miss mustard...
JANUARY 11, 2010 12:21 PM

EV Grieve said...
@dmbream

Good question on the historical reference. Some of these storefronts on A have been shuttered for years — particularly the ones between 3rd and 2nd operated by the NYCHA.

And there are several empty shops on First too. Probably not 21, though....
JANUARY 11, 2010 12:24 PM

Goggla said...
Ray is apparently renting month-to-month without a lease...not good for him, but this arrangement could benefit other short-term businesses. I wonder why more of this isn't going on just to pull in some cash.
JANUARY 11, 2010 12:33 PM

Melanie said...
It looks like the EV strip has been abandoned.
JANUARY 11, 2010 12:55 PM

Mykola Dementiuk said...
All the mom and pop shops that could have been....sigh :((( Devastated by the greedy need for money.
JANUARY 11, 2010 2:34 PM

geoff matters said...
"the ones between 3rd and 2nd operated by the NYCHA"

The first 4 pictured storefronts are NYCHA properties, and my understanding is that they are supposed to be operated for the benefit of the community. How does demanding rents which make it impossible for most businesses to afford those spaces benefit the community?
JANUARY 11, 2010 3:55 PM

Anonymous said...
Seems like the "Upright Citizen's Brigade" has been moving into the Two Boots space for at least a year now. What's the story?
JANUARY 11, 2010 6:23 PM

Jill said...
I am sad about the A&H store, which was a candy store, and the last one on Avenue A that I know of (definition of candy store? visit my brain in the 1970's). I wasn't sure it was closed because sometimes it would have odd hours, but yes, recently, I haven't seen it open at all.
JANUARY 11, 2010 7:53 PM

EV Grieve said...
@ anon 6:23 pm... Work started on the theater in July...and you're right: Not much progress is noticeable from the street level...
JANUARY 11, 2010 8:24 PM

Anonymous said...
Jill, A&H has been closed for two years now. I live across the street, so I was there many times for late-night trips for more beer (I was much younger then :p). The whole building now looks completely dilapidated.

Don't worry about the owners, though -- they have a new candy store over on Ave B between 6th and 7th. Last time I walked by, anyway.
JANUARY 11, 2010 10:52 PM

Lisa said...
I don't think I would recognize Ave. A if I walked down it today. And I only left in 2005. I was over on Essex in December, and it felt quite foreign.
JANUARY 12, 2010 11:19 AM

glamma said...
wow thanks EV Grieve for the sober reminder. the landlords obviously do NOT have all the leverage at the moment. this POS Chupa is thekind of person who is directly responsible for the loss of character and sabor in the EV.. how does she sleep at night? what a waste of life. i hope she is reading this!
JANUARY 12, 2010 3:07 PM

Anonymous said...
Those vacant store fronts in the NYCHA building, First Houses, suggests that NYCHA wants to sell the whole damn parcel to a developer, or wanted to before the Bubble burst. NYCHA operates behind an opaque veil of secrecy. NYCHA has been shuttering, then warehousing, apartments when people move out, especially in Manhattan, according to the best intelligence gathered by housing advocates. including Borough President Scott Stinger, but there are no records to substantiate any rumors.

The contiguous, vacant storefronts in a nycha building on Avenue A suggests that the proported plans to sell NYCHA property to developers could be more fact than fantasy.

Does anybody know if apartments at First Houses are being warehoused or are all units currently rented and occupied?
JANUARY 12, 2010 5:40 PM

chris flash said...
Great job documenting the empty Avenue A storefronts....seeing them laid out this way powerfully makes the point!

I remember when stores along First Avenue, Avenue A + Avenue B were all small locally-owned businesses, as recently as the late 80s - early 90s. Nothing sexy or fancy or corporate: just things that residents wanted and NEEDED, like hardware stores; buttons, sewing and notions; affordable cafés, restaurants and delis; record shops; small clubs; cheap clothing outlets....

These businesses were an essential part of the fabric holding the Lower East Side's delicate economy together. Once these locations were rented to transient tenants willing to pay inflated rents (until they too failed to keep up), residential rents went up accordingly. We all know the compounding effect this has had.

By the way: has anyone considered just HOW banks can afford to rent corner storefronts at double digit rents (over $10-20-30k per month?) Because federal law allows them to lend TEN TIMES more money than they actually have on deposit. This is called "fractional reserve banking." This means that they're not getting a mere 5-6% on their loans; they're reaping 50-60% on money they're lending out that they don't even HAVE!!

If any of US engaged in this sort of activity, we'd be prosecuted for FRAUD!!

Just as we can rid ourselves of businesses that are killing our neighborhood by boycotting, we can do the same to the banks that push our neighborhood businesses out -- if depositors remove enough cash, the banks get fucked because they must maintain a certain portion of cash on hand at all times because they are lending out more than they have on deposit. This alone can caused them to be shut down by the FDIC.

Boycott: Try it, you'll like it!!
JANUARY 13, 2010 2:12 AM

Anonymous said...
To the anonymous commenter regarding the NYCHA vacant storefronts:

I know one store owner who was going to expand into one of those spaces but when the economy tanked, he pulled back. One or two others have had new occupants in the past 2 years so I don't think they're warehousing as you suspect. One problem a potential renter mentioned to me is that they don't allow food preparation on the premises, so restaurants and food shops aren't interested. There was a coffee shop on the corner 3 & A spot, but they specifically weren't allowed to make any food there (sandwiches, eggs, etc.), they could only sell it.

Otherwise, there are so many other available spaces on Ave A (as this piece illustrates), that potential renters have plenty of better looking options. Frankly many of those have been unoccupied for such a long time that it's clear Avenue A isn't a great retail area. You have much higher disposable incomes and spending in places like Williamsburg.
JANUARY 14, 2010 1:14 AM

I've lived in the EV for 15+ years and agree with most of the above (though glamma this is obviously a very sensitive issue for you) but who doesn't miss "the old days"? There are actually a lot of things that are BETTER now in the EV IMO (despite the recession). Heroin and crack are pretty much gone (though you can still find non-life-destroying goodies if you choose). The hipster crowd has moved on (LES?) leaving the EV a little more neighborhoody and chill. TSP is largely urine and defication free not to mention the great dog run. "Tell me this town aint got no heart / maybe the dark is from your eyes."

But I really do miss Brownies - not the music venue - the OTHER one, anyone remember it? Bonus points for "the rules" or the name of the doorman or bartender.

if you want today's east village it's more like bushwick.
in 10 years, i expect to have my 2000 sq ft with 2 patios and a yard in WB to be worth bundles. i will still probably live here tho and will enjoy a spectacular waterfront, the mccarren pool and fantastic restaurants and shopping.

"But I really do miss Brownies - not the music venue - the OTHER one, anyone remember it? Bonus points for "the rules" or the name of the doorman or bartender. "

Ha, yes! No, I was just a tag along. I didn't know the key people.

Christ, Brownies... Why did all those poor people there always seem to have a cold?