Recently I've seen several apartments which appeared to me to be in neglected condition, much more than normal wear and tear. These apartments were being shown with leaky faucets, broken baseboards, broken window shades left hanging and in one case, the bricks on the outside terrace were broken in two places leaving small exposed gaps. Not being very mechanically inclined, I'm wondering what else... [more]
Recently I've seen several apartments which appeared to me to be in neglected condition, much more than normal wear and tear. These apartments were being shown with leaky faucets, broken baseboards, broken window shades left hanging and in one case, the bricks on the outside terrace were broken in two places leaving small exposed gaps. Not being very mechanically inclined, I'm wondering what else is going on in these apartments beyond these obvious signs of neglect.
(1) What does an apartment being shown in neglected condition tell you besides the possibility of a reduced purchase price? I realize that in some cases, the owner is either too ill, elderly or in a poor financial state to be able to maintain the apartment.
(2) What should I look for to make sure that nothing material is going on beneath the exterior surfaces in these apartments?
(3) How common is it to bring an inspector to inspect an apartment before an offer is made? I was thinking that an inspector might be more impartial than bringing a contractor who might be more interested in a renovation job.
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Response by aboutready
over 15 years ago
Posts: 16354
Member since: Oct 2007
Lobster, I would bring an inspector after making your offer. It is a decent negotiating tool. If conditions are shown to be worse than were apparent you don't go to contract without a price reduction or other concessions.
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Response by LENOXav
over 15 years ago
Posts: 150
Member since: May 2010
One of the benefits of dealing with a 'neglected' unit, wrecks included, is to negotiate an accordingly much lower price.
No need to wonder about hidden conditions, just bring in your Home Inspector and Contractor and/or Architect!
Take into account what All have to say and proceed from there.
Excellent Opportunity to start with the very basics, and put your personal imprint on creating your new home exactly as you see fit, within the guidelines of the Building involved [and, Board!], and City regulations, of course.
Not every Unit is triple-mint, and even in brand new developments, you need to punch list your way in, to note and correct problems.
All kinds of situations exist, resulting in units coming to market in different conditions!
Your Attorney can include contingencies of the sort that need be in your Contract in a Time Frame to your liking -- you just need to have Seller accept, and proceed accordingly from there . . . .
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Response by kharby2
over 15 years ago
Posts: 279
Member since: Oct 2009
The seller could be in serious financial trouble and your first offer should be low enough to make a knowledgeable buyer squirm just a little bit.
Nothing you describe here is a big deal to fix, not even the exterior brickwork. I've done that kind of repair myself.
But did the toilet flush well, or poorly, or does it show cracks or broken edges where it connects to the floor? Is the sink uncracked porcelain, or is it dinged up stainless steel? Did you look under the kitchen sink and find modern pipes, or did you find old pipes with signs of water leakage (pipes stained, damp, or black wood)? Is the tub in good shape, or is it cracked or, OMG, peeling? These are the areas that could really cost you.
If there is a listing broker involved, IMHO shame on that person. It just wastes everyone's time to show slovenly apartments. Fix it and then show it. It's the broker's responsibility to help the seller understand what kind of impression a broken window shade makes. These are inexpensive things to deal with.
If this neglected apartment is in an otherwise fine building, I would only pay for an inspection for the reasons aboutready states. Some inspectors charge so much you would be better off just paying for the repairs, but you could use the inspector's report for leverage if you need it.
The risk you run is that you're paying for a very nice service for the seller (an inspection) if you don't buy the apartment. I have paid for several inspections by professional engineers (PEs) that didn't result in enough of a discount on the price, so I handed the report to the seller and walked away. I don't find it feels good to do that.
if an apt is a gut job, it's a gut job--and it prices accordingly--superficial primping can help a bit but is generally a waste of money--an inspector or trusted contractor should look at infrastructure details so renovation costs/difficulty can be included in valuation
that said, a quick and dirty white paint job makes a space feel bigger and allows better for visualization by buyers
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Response by lizyank
over 15 years ago
Posts: 907
Member since: Oct 2006
Lobster I think it depends on what the seller is trying to sell. When I sold my place downtown it was so obviously a complete wreck that any cosmetic fixes would have had no effect on the desirability or price (in fact I sold it before we even started the daunting task of cleaning it out, probably a good idea or I'd still be paying maintenance for paper plates from the 1970s. Selling the place to someone else kind of made it imperative to clean out.)
But if someone is selling an apartment as being in "move in" or close to move in condition and it isn't spruced up for showing someone isn't doing their job. The upside: could mean the selling broker is stupid or lazy? One of many possible downsides: the seller didn't listen to their broker's advice which means they probably won't listen regarding reasonable offers, chops etc.
But if its an "estate sale" broken window shades etc are to be expected and reflected in the price.
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Response by Truth
over 15 years ago
Posts: 5641
Member since: Dec 2009
Lobster: Agree with all above, and those broken bricks on the terrace indicate the managing agent and super are neglecting to maintain. That is a safety hazard. Not a good sign.
How's your hubby doing? Home Depot has rolled out the grills and summer merch.
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Response by romary
over 15 years ago
Posts: 443
Member since: Aug 2008
maybe the entire bldg needs repointing. caveat emptor.
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Response by front_porch
over 15 years ago
Posts: 5316
Member since: Mar 2008
All of the things you mention, um, are in my apartment. Those things are all so small and cosmetic it could simply be a matter that the owners are a couple who both work and don't have time to loom over the handyman.
So at that point, it's the selling broker's job to fix them, and I say the only thing it's a sign of is that the selling broker is not being anal enough.
You want to be looking for much larger problems -- cracks, sloped stairs or floors that are indicative of settling problems; water damage as indicated by retained moisture, whether from bulging tile or from a perma-wet spot in the bath (an inspector will bring in a cool little gadget called a "moisture meter"); common hallways that have more than normal wear-and-tear, which is a sign of either poor building maintenance and/or neighbors who aren't careful with the building.
ali r.
DG Neary Realty
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Response by lobster
over 15 years ago
Posts: 1147
Member since: May 2009
Whenever I view an apartment which appears to be in neglected condition, I think of the scene in the movie "Moonstruck" where Loretta's father is explaining the estimate for replacing pipes. The wife says "That's alot" and the husband says "Heart, I think we should listen to Mr. Castorini's advice". I always think that a big problem will emerge shortly in an apartment which looks neglected.
You all made very good points and I appreciate the thoughtful responses. Liz, the apartments that I saw were definitely not being marketed by the seller's broker as "in estate condition" and your point is a good one. I also think that both Truth and romary are correct that I should be wary of a building where the brickwork is in disrepair. My main concern was what to look for in apartments that would indicate that a big problem was going on and both front_porch and kharby2 answered that concern very well. Aboutready, your point about when to bring an inspector is excellent.
Truth, forget Home Depot or even Fairway. If we really want to have a good time as a couple, we head over to Costco or BJ's. Suddenly, I must buy a 128 ounce jar of light mayonaise or a 45 pack of paper towels. :)
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Lobster, I would bring an inspector after making your offer. It is a decent negotiating tool. If conditions are shown to be worse than were apparent you don't go to contract without a price reduction or other concessions.
One of the benefits of dealing with a 'neglected' unit, wrecks included, is to negotiate an accordingly much lower price.
No need to wonder about hidden conditions, just bring in your Home Inspector and Contractor and/or Architect!
Take into account what All have to say and proceed from there.
Excellent Opportunity to start with the very basics, and put your personal imprint on creating your new home exactly as you see fit, within the guidelines of the Building involved [and, Board!], and City regulations, of course.
Not every Unit is triple-mint, and even in brand new developments, you need to punch list your way in, to note and correct problems.
All kinds of situations exist, resulting in units coming to market in different conditions!
Your Attorney can include contingencies of the sort that need be in your Contract in a Time Frame to your liking -- you just need to have Seller accept, and proceed accordingly from there . . . .
The seller could be in serious financial trouble and your first offer should be low enough to make a knowledgeable buyer squirm just a little bit.
Nothing you describe here is a big deal to fix, not even the exterior brickwork. I've done that kind of repair myself.
But did the toilet flush well, or poorly, or does it show cracks or broken edges where it connects to the floor? Is the sink uncracked porcelain, or is it dinged up stainless steel? Did you look under the kitchen sink and find modern pipes, or did you find old pipes with signs of water leakage (pipes stained, damp, or black wood)? Is the tub in good shape, or is it cracked or, OMG, peeling? These are the areas that could really cost you.
If there is a listing broker involved, IMHO shame on that person. It just wastes everyone's time to show slovenly apartments. Fix it and then show it. It's the broker's responsibility to help the seller understand what kind of impression a broken window shade makes. These are inexpensive things to deal with.
If this neglected apartment is in an otherwise fine building, I would only pay for an inspection for the reasons aboutready states. Some inspectors charge so much you would be better off just paying for the repairs, but you could use the inspector's report for leverage if you need it.
The risk you run is that you're paying for a very nice service for the seller (an inspection) if you don't buy the apartment. I have paid for several inspections by professional engineers (PEs) that didn't result in enough of a discount on the price, so I handed the report to the seller and walked away. I don't find it feels good to do that.
Karla Harby, VP
Charles Rutenberg Realty
http://gothamcityhomes.posterous.com/
if an apt is a gut job, it's a gut job--and it prices accordingly--superficial primping can help a bit but is generally a waste of money--an inspector or trusted contractor should look at infrastructure details so renovation costs/difficulty can be included in valuation
that said, a quick and dirty white paint job makes a space feel bigger and allows better for visualization by buyers
Lobster I think it depends on what the seller is trying to sell. When I sold my place downtown it was so obviously a complete wreck that any cosmetic fixes would have had no effect on the desirability or price (in fact I sold it before we even started the daunting task of cleaning it out, probably a good idea or I'd still be paying maintenance for paper plates from the 1970s. Selling the place to someone else kind of made it imperative to clean out.)
But if someone is selling an apartment as being in "move in" or close to move in condition and it isn't spruced up for showing someone isn't doing their job. The upside: could mean the selling broker is stupid or lazy? One of many possible downsides: the seller didn't listen to their broker's advice which means they probably won't listen regarding reasonable offers, chops etc.
But if its an "estate sale" broken window shades etc are to be expected and reflected in the price.
Lobster: Agree with all above, and those broken bricks on the terrace indicate the managing agent and super are neglecting to maintain. That is a safety hazard. Not a good sign.
How's your hubby doing? Home Depot has rolled out the grills and summer merch.
maybe the entire bldg needs repointing. caveat emptor.
All of the things you mention, um, are in my apartment. Those things are all so small and cosmetic it could simply be a matter that the owners are a couple who both work and don't have time to loom over the handyman.
So at that point, it's the selling broker's job to fix them, and I say the only thing it's a sign of is that the selling broker is not being anal enough.
You want to be looking for much larger problems -- cracks, sloped stairs or floors that are indicative of settling problems; water damage as indicated by retained moisture, whether from bulging tile or from a perma-wet spot in the bath (an inspector will bring in a cool little gadget called a "moisture meter"); common hallways that have more than normal wear-and-tear, which is a sign of either poor building maintenance and/or neighbors who aren't careful with the building.
ali r.
DG Neary Realty
Whenever I view an apartment which appears to be in neglected condition, I think of the scene in the movie "Moonstruck" where Loretta's father is explaining the estimate for replacing pipes. The wife says "That's alot" and the husband says "Heart, I think we should listen to Mr. Castorini's advice". I always think that a big problem will emerge shortly in an apartment which looks neglected.
You all made very good points and I appreciate the thoughtful responses. Liz, the apartments that I saw were definitely not being marketed by the seller's broker as "in estate condition" and your point is a good one. I also think that both Truth and romary are correct that I should be wary of a building where the brickwork is in disrepair. My main concern was what to look for in apartments that would indicate that a big problem was going on and both front_porch and kharby2 answered that concern very well. Aboutready, your point about when to bring an inspector is excellent.
Truth, forget Home Depot or even Fairway. If we really want to have a good time as a couple, we head over to Costco or BJ's. Suddenly, I must buy a 128 ounce jar of light mayonaise or a 45 pack of paper towels. :)
lobster: Live it up!