rooms vs bedroom

Every room that is NOT a bathroom should be a room. Often agents count a big foyer or an unenclosed dining space as half a room.

So, my prewar apartment has a Living/Dining room (1) + a Kitchen (1) + a Master Bedroom (1).

That would make normally make it a 3-room apartment. If it had two more bedrooms, it would be a five-room apartment.

However, my place also has a dining foyer that's open (.5) so many agents would call it a "3.5 room apartment."

My dining foyer is so large that it could be closed off into a full bedroom (which would make it 1), so many agents call my layout a "Junior 4." (The "Junior" indicates that it hasn't been converted yet.)

Does that help?

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

"My dining foyer is so large that it could be closed off into a full bedroom (which would make it 1), so many agents call my layout a "Junior 4.""

Really.

Your dining foyer has a window and its own closet?

A room does not need a closet to be called a bedroom. As I understand it a bedroom needs a window, and must be 80 sq ft. Many dining foyers could qualify, but most are under 80 sq ft but that doesn't stop people from calling the room a bedroom.

Right. Because it's so nice to have the front door opening directly into your "bedroom".

There are plenty of Junior 4's that can be converted to a 2 bedroom either for 2 young professionals to split, or for a young child. Some layouts can be awkward, but some are just fine.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/635303-coop-530-east-72nd-street-lenox-hill-new-york

So where does the second "professional" keep her clothes?

In the dresser or wardrobe

Ah.

And in an 8x11 "room" that is big enough to fit only a twin-sized bed and perhaps a nightstand, where might this dresser or wardrobe go? Terrace?

Indeed, nothing says "professional living" quite like being shunted into sleeping alcove off the kitchen!

I would think it would beat living in mom and dad's basement on LI which is what many young professionals are forced to do today.

My first year in NYC I lived in a 3 bedroom 600 sq ft apt that had 0 closets. Yeah, it sucked, and I was glad to move, but my 8x10 bedroom was enough to fit a full size bed, and an IKEA wardrobe.

If you're living in a kitchen alcove, you're not a "young professional".

You're just young.

Not sure if you meant that as an insult. I do think it is insulting to young first year professionals that are trying to make it in the city. If you have no money, you aren't professional? If you have no money you are broke, big difference.

I lived with an NYU law grad who was clerking for an appellate judge, and someone working in finance (non I banking) as a first year. We were young that is for sure. We were also highly educated, and on professional tracks. On first year salaries, no help from rich parents, some student debt, and little savings we didnt have the illusion of having our own 12x18 bedrooms. It is amazing what you can get by with when there is no other choice.

This is the building we lived it. Rents are actually much higher now. Ha.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/716713-rental-243-henry-street-two-bridges-new-york

I should add that splitting a Junior 4 would have seemed like a palatial estate compared to the apt that I had.

You mean first year professionals WHO are trying to make it in the city?

Rather than trying to live in the most expensive parts of the city, they could also look in more affordable neighborhoods for apartments that wouldn't' force them to live in a kitchen alcove like an 19th Century housemaid.

Ha. YOU are funny. Not the things that you say, but YOU.

FYI, 243 Henry St. Far from the most expensive part of the city.

If you're looking in Manhattan south of 96th Street, you're looking in "the most expensive" parts of the city.

Ha. We looked at it differently. We were in Manhattan at a price less than many parts of Bklyn, cheaper than LIC, and about on par with Astoria. We didn't have to worry about a cab not taking us to the boroughs if we were out late having drinks. It sure didn't feel like the most expensive part of the city. Everything below 96th street being considered the same part of the city is a strange position to take. You could expand your point though....if you are anywhere on Earth you are in the most expensive part of the universe.

OMG, I can't believe Matt shares my obsessive who/that fixation.... Makes me scared for my future LOL!

Problem is that this whole metropolitan area is expensive on a young professional starting salary of, say, $50k. $1,000 per month gets you nothing of your own, even in the boroughs or NJ. Given that sharing is the only practical solution for those without parental help, I think there's some lifestyle benefit to sharing with more roommates in a nicer area v. fewer roommates in a lesser area.

I'm not saying that "everything south of 96th" is the "same part of the city".

I'm saying that ALL of the neighborhoods south of 96th Street are, in fact, THE MOST EXPENSIVE PARTS of the city.

"I'm saying that ALL of the neighborhoods south of 96th Street are, in fact, THE MOST EXPENSIVE PARTS of the city."

That's silly. The price differences between various neighborhoods south of 96th street are at least as big as the price differences between the cheapest neighborhoods in those areas and those in other parts of the city. (i.e., TriBeCa or the West Village are as more expensive compared to Chinatown as Chinatown is compared to many parts of Brooklyn.)

"That's silly."

No.

By and large, it's accurate.

Well it really is silly since we were discussing living in an area that clearly is not the most expensive part of the city. It is far cheaper to live on Henry street than in many parts of the city including parts of Manhattan, Brooklyn, Harlem, and Queens (sorry I know nothing about SI). Grouping all Manhattan below 96th as one part of the city for purposes of comparing pricing and affordability is silly.

NYCMatt : You can't make sweeping characterizations using phrases like "all neighborhoods" and then try to back them up with qualifiers like "by and large" (hint: that means "not all"). Well, you can. And you do. But it's still silly.

Back to the original topic...my apartment is a 1 bedroom with a large recreation room on the lower floor of a duplex. The recreation room, despite it's size of 500+ sq ft is considered only half a room according to the offering plan.

>jordyn
about 5 hours ago
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NYCMatt : You can't make sweeping characterizations using phrases like "all neighborhoods" and then try to back them up with qualifiers like "by and large" (hint: that means "not all"). Well, you can. And you do. But it's still silly.

NYCMatt was the one who was upset that everyone else's bathtub can be glazed in 1 day, whereas his takes 3 days ... and he doesn't want you to generalize.

As Ali mentioned, it can get interesting to count rooms when you are talking about open living room/ dining spaces because the sizes of this spaces can vary widely. Some of the spaces are square or rectangular, but very large and have enough space for true distinct areas while other spaces barely have room for a very small table for eating. Is it really just one large room when it serves multiple functions? But when you look when the spaces when the space has been enclosed from the living room, it very often looks like one large room. It's the problem of living in NYC. Apartments are just too expensive for most people and you have to be creative with your space options. If the second bedroom, nursey or office is directly next to the kitchen with no corridor, it should be called a real room even if it has a window and a small built-in closet although in actuality it can function as a real room. I wasn't able to understand from the OP's question which room(s) in the offering plan might be questionable, but Ali has detailed the likely possibilities.

correction- it should not be called a real room

sem, your rec room might not be a legal room at all, depending on how far below grade it is and where the windows are placed. Probably doesn't matter to you in terms of daily use, but if you have flooding/leak issues, your insurance company might deny the claim on the grounds that it's basement space.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali, if the co-op's offering plan says it's a room and includes it in the description of spaces, then isn't the co-op on the hook for any flooding/leak issues? I think most Proprietary Leases require the co-op to cover perils that would be covered under a typical master insurance policy or something like that.

In my brief history with insurance companies, it seems like the offering plan prevails. If you have a floor that's different than what is described in the offering plan, denied. If you have built-ins not described in the offering plan (in one case they were original, just not described), denied. If you have (as we have) built on roof space, any leak originating from the access point is denied and any leak from the roof underneath is heavily scrutinized and/or denied.

In this case, if the co-op's insurance tried to claim that the space is not legal, but the co-op sold it anyway and there are shares allocated to it, I'd think the co-op would be bound to pay for the repair costs.

You do raise a good point, though, that shareholders whose apartment is significantly different than when the co-op was first sold do have additional insurance needs that a basic carrier may not cover. E.g., our apartment now has a skylight that wasn't there originally. If this skylight blew in and flooded the entire building (which it could), neither our building's insurance nor a basic condo/co-op owner's policy will cover this.

Hey Ali,

The rec room space is a cellar space- so obviously below grade and certainly designated as a non-living space. As to the legal classification, I'll be honest- I am not certain...but the condo's offering plan does state 3.5 rooms. It's been almost 6 years now since the C of O was issued to the building and not a hint of water down there- knock on wood.

Just picked myself off my bathroom floor. No, not a bedroom by a long stretch. There is probably a special place in hell for all real estate types who try to pawn off closets and bathrooms as bedrooms. Maybe there should be some type of public shaming ceremony for such opportunists comparable to tarring and feathering. nyrentalbible.com