I don't get this. Why do listings appear as 1 bed / 1 bath when they are clearly studios? (Excluding real lofts) Are the agents trying to get their listings to appear on searches with a criteria of "1 bed/1 bath" even though the apartments are clearly studios? Do they think buyers will see their fabulous studio and say "Gee whiz, I wanted a one bedroom, but this studio is more than enough room for me, the Mrs. and Snuffles!"
Come on.

Sorry - meant to include an example:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/674781-coop-145-east-15th-street-gramercy-park-new-york

Uh, yeah, agents list it so it'll pop up under "1 br" searches. Sometimes it's the same square footage as a true 1 br, though the prices is usually lower because - well, it's not a true 1 br.

Not sure what the legalities are, though most jr 1br's are listed as such in the description, and the location of the bathroom (inside the bedroom) is another givaway, as noted in the example you provided.

"Junior 1 bedroom." What a joke. Only in New York City could brokers get away with that. Imagine looking for a house and seeing a description of a "lovely junior 3 bedroom/ 2 bath colonial."
How about just calling it what it is. A studio.

Or a "junior three/convertible four" center hall colonial. Because people in the suburbs who really need four bedrooms could of course convert that dining room off the front foyer into a bedroom.

Guilty!

I did this at 205 Third, and the reason was exactly what you guessed: we wanted to make sure that brokerless customers, who were solely using a computer search and weren't familiar with the building, would see the listing pop up and consider it as an alternative to other apartments that they were looking at that might be one-bedrooms.

Generally when we do this (I am speaking only for my firm here, not for the real estate community as a whole) it is a square footage call -- in the case of a "jumbo studio" or an "oversized studio," I would only do it if the property were > 500 sf.

Listing, which closed Monday, is here:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/641792-coop-205-third-avenue-gramercy-park-new-york

we did indeed attract shoppers who intrigued by the possibility of converting the unit to a 1-BR -- which can be done, since the windowed alcove is 10' by 10'. And it has been done in other apartments in that line in that building. However, the eventual buyer's plans are to leave it open.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

"I would only do it if the property were > 500 sf"

And other brokers would only do if it the property were > 300 sf, or maybe >200sf, or perhaps just a mite larger than a bread box.

It's called lying.

Ali, I'm sorry, but a STUDIO is a STUDIO is a STUDIO.

Calling it a one bedroom is a classic bait and switch, which is not only unethical, but ILLEGAL in many cases.

These outright lies are what give your profession a black mark.

Buyers aren't stupid. If they're open to converting a studio into a "one-bedroom", they'll look at your listing.

Well, a lot of buyers ARE stupid. I mean, they're just people. But the broker's lie is still a lie.

And by the way, the vast majority of buyers don't necessarily screen by number of bedrooms. No one wants to miss a good deal -- so usually virtually all buyers will eventually just do a search based on price alone. If your STUDIO is priced appropriately to comparable one-bedrooms, they'll see the listing. No need to lie about it.

Matt, in both our listing and the Corcoran listing the OP gave as an example these are easily, legally convertible apartments, whose text description indicates they haven't been converted.

How's that lying?

ali

If it's not converted, it's a STUDIO.

I could also advertise an empty warehouse down on Houston Street as a ten bedroom "maisonette" -- simply because it can be "converted" into such.

Would THAT be lying?

I could also advertise a two-bedroom apartment in a prewar building with original floorplan as having an "open kitchen" with FOUR bedrooms -- because the apartment next door is also for sale and the buyer could "easily" combine the two.

At what point does it start being a lie?

But there's no advertising in the text that these AREN'T studios. Our listing says "studio" in the first sentence. The Corcoran listing pretty clearly indicates "Junior One" in the first sentence.

ali

And Matt, you're just being silly now. If Apartment A has two bedrooms, and it can be combined with Apartment B which has two bedrooms, the agent puts up two listings: Apartment A as a 2-BR, and Apartment AB as a 4-BR, with "Potential Combination" in the first sentence.

I really don't think it's too much to ask potential buyers -- who, remember are technically buying shares in a corporation plus a proprietary lease on a certain space -- to read the first text sentence of a real estate advertisement in order to get a description of that space.

ali

I'm sorry, Ali, but your justifying an outright lie is very disappointing.

YOU might think it's "silly" to advertise an empty warehouse as a "maisonette" because you apparently have your own yardstick as to how far one can go before it's considered a lie.

But once you've crossed the line into falsehood, it's a slippery slope. The next agent will think it's not "lying" to advertise a two-bedroom as a four bedroom because it can be "converted" with the next apartment.

Another agent thinks it's an "open kitchen" based solely on the POTENTIAL for an absent wall.

And still another sees a "maisonette" in an empty warehouse, and advertises it as such. Perception is reality after all, right?

I don't see how it is a bait and switch. It isn't to get them in the door with a non available apt and then show them something else. It is basically to be included in search results. The description of the apartment does not say 1 bedroom and the listings include pictures.

When I searched, I definitely didn't search by price alone. I searched by price and number of rooms. If something came up in my search that didn't meet what I was looking for, I went on to the next. Pretty simple.

Ive seen people use the windowed kitchen as an excuse to call the studio a 1br. I think in manhattan RE you have to learn from experience and understand that people will try and get away with whatever they can.

Matt, the customers' perceptions are distorted by being outside the brokerage community.

In my computer system, "studio," "alcove studio," and "Junior One" are all SEPARATE categories, so if I'm talking through the computer system to another agent, we both know exactly what we're talking about.

ali

typical broker, justifying unethical behavior, nothing to see here.

>Are the agents trying to get their listings to appear on searches with a criteria
>of "1 bed/1 bath" even though the apartments are clearly studios?

>Guilty!

Right, it's a judgement call, so of course not everyone's going to agree.

E.g., take the sample building -- http://www.columbia.edu/cgi-bin/dlo?obj=ldpd_YR_1437_MH_001_004&size=large -- which is as typical as they come.

Looking at three C- D- and E-line studios, I'd call the C an alcove studio, as the alcove is a bit too small to wall off. The D is a plain studio, as there's no possible way to get a BR out of it. The E is a junior one, as the alcove is 10'x10' and many buyers would wall it off.

I don't see how it is unethical. It's like when people were putting key tag words to come up in internet searches. The only way I see it as unethical is to say it is a 1 bedroom for search purposes, say it is a one bedroom in the description, provide no picture or floorplan and get the prospective buyer to come out and see it.

It prospective buyers are tricked by having a studio apartment come up in a search for a 1BR, they shouldn't be buying an apt.

n any case this alcove studio - or J1 - has 2.5 rooms, not a 3.5 rooms as advertised

"the customers' perceptions are distorted by being outside the brokerage community...so if I'm talking through the computer system to another agent, we both know exactly what we're talking about."

But the problem is, customers do their own research today before they speak with a broker. I would venture to say most people do. So me, the "distorted customer" gets inaccurate information when I search listings on Streeteasy, despite what the insiders in the Manhattan brokerage community know. And someone intentionally put that information in that way. That's what's troubling.

This is probably the least egregious thing brokers do in the "grey" area.
If listings had no floorplan attached, I could see the beef.
ANd in this particular case, the apt is one wall (or french doors) away from being a small 1 bedroom.

Square footage is a much greater determiner of price than number of rooms."Normal" 1 bedrooms can range between 600 and 1200 square feet.

Lie is too strong a word in this case. Grey marketing rules the day.

There are worse things that continue in the industry far ahead on the list.

well, midage guy, let me try this metaphor on you.

I have a computer system that allows me four choices: studio, alcove studio, Junior One, 1-BR.

So let's call those four boxes "white," "light gray," "dark gray" and "black."

Then I know that streeteasy (say -- there are other aggregators I worry about too, like Trulia) is going to pick up my listing. StreetEasy has two boxes: studios and 1-BRs, i.e., "white" and "black".

Matt is arguing that I'm lying by calling "black" "white" ... but in my world, I'm just trying to figure out where to put "light gray" (or "dark gray") so that people can find it.

If I'm being overly aggressive by calling "dark gray" "black" (and I can see how that would annoy you; I live in NYC and I have bought studios too!) realize that my alternative is to call "dark gray" "white."

Which, I promise you, is going to annoy other people outside the brokerage community, including my seller, who will think I'm not doing all I can for him/her, and other searchers on aggregators, who are going to call me and say, "aw, I missed out on that jumbo studio, why didn't you put it where I could find it? Do you have any more? Are you tilting the playing field so that only people with brokers can find what they want?"

ali

LOL I guess we agree unless we want to argue over gray or grey. :)

I think the professional wide angle cameras used on some of the pics cause more "false' impressions than anything else.
THink picture of a MCdonalds quarter pounder and the actual quarter pounder.

Matt - you're being a dick. As a buyer, I like Ali's approach.

front_porch - with all due respect, I think the issue is the gradations "light gray" and "dark gray" for something that should be classified as "white." Perhaps the problem is with a computer system that even has three different categories for the same thing - a studio.

And let me toss one your way on annoying people outside the brokerage community. Suppose in your example another seller of the same apartment/floorplan as your "jumbo" studio whose broker is with another firm calls his broker and says, "why didn't YOU list my apartment as a one bedroom like the Schmidlap's broker did?"

Wouldn't it just be easier if we called a studio a studio?

And everyone's a bit spoiled.

Do any of you recall looking for an apartment(rent or buy) 10/15 years ago?

NY Times ads of text only. Brokers losing interest in dealing with you after showing maybe 5 units.
Compare having to make an appointment, waste 1 to 2 hours in viewing and travel time,etc. with an extra 2 mouse clicks......jeeze

oh, midageguy, we definitely get that problem. Even more of a problem is square footage, because the trend is for sellers to want us to claim as high as we can (a number that may even be justified by a fifty-year-old offering plan) and buyers want, not unreasonably, for floorplan to reflect "footprint," so that a 20-by-30 box is listed as 600 sf.

The point I'm trying to make is that many of us (including I think the Corcoran broker in your example here) are trying to convey the subtleties of our listings so that buyers can pre-screen without, as truthskr10 notes, having to go see everything in person.

I am not claiming that I wake up every day and fight crime, but I do attempt to do my job honorably, and I think a lot of people in the profession do.

I'm with Ali on this one.

A big ole alcove (eg 10 x 10) studio 500sf+ should be in the same general "box" as a one bedroom. And in fact I've seen a few spacious light-filled 700sf L-shaped studios that I liked waaaay better than comparable one bedrooms. I suspect many 1 br shoppers would find them appealing.

And like truthskr said, don't be so spoiled. North Koreans are starving.

And Matt, your Stickley is fake, so we already know you're not really that concerned with literal definitions.

As a recent post suggested, just hang up a metal ball curtain and, bam, you have yourself a bedroom.

I hate people lying in ads. If you don't state in the ad that its "convertible" from a studio to a 1bd, or 1 to a 2 bd - or WORSE, say its a 2bd 2bth when it has ONE bath on laundry in unit when its shared - I fucking go ballistic. i have cursed out brokers and walked out of apartments in a huff. I fucking HATE it. Brokers lie, all the time.

this is exactly why the UD Manhattan tracking tools breaks down apt size using bathrooms. the source db has tons of: 2brs/1bth, 3brs/1.5bths, 3/brs/2bth, etc. If there is a space in an apt that can in some way possibly be converted to a bedroom, even if its not a legal bedroom, the broker (or the seller pressuring the broker) may inflate the bedroom count.

Buyers tend to think its ok if the convertible space meets the following criteria:

a) more than say 110-115sft - t take away from the living room space (dining rooms tend to be ok as a sacrifice for another br)

So yes, large alcove studios can get away with and large JR4s can get away with it.

yes very fair...in most cases its the seller that demands a listing reach as wide an audience as possible - so if their property can possibly be converted, they will work with a broker that is willing to list and market the apt the way they want it to be marketed. If a broker says no, the seller will find that will say yes

not sure what happened to my post from 13 min ago, formatted wrong and didnt display what I wrote..it should read:

Buyers tend to think its ok if the convertible space meets the following criteria: a) more than 110-115sft - under 100sft wont fly, b) has its own window, c) has its own hvac unit, d) has its own closet space, and d) does not take away from LR space (dining rooms tend to be ok to be sacrificed for another br)

I do not think there is any thing wrong in listing an alcove studio as 1br as long as alcove area has a window and one can create a 100 sq ft room including closet. Of course, one should not lose the window in the living room and still have at least 180-200 real sq ft in the living room ex kitchen. That is why square footage is listed - inflating sq footage is a completely different story.

"I do not think there is any thing wrong in listing an alcove studio as 1br as long as 1br [h]as a window and one can create a 100 sq ft room including closet."

WHAT?????? You must have had one too many cocktails when you wrote that. Square footage at least carries the mandatory disclaimer that the brokerage firms' attorneys made them include years ago (following a number of lawsuits realtors lost). Good Streeteasy blog on this topic: http://tinyurl.com/cyjhs49

But a listing should be based on what actually exists in the apartment today, not what can be created tomorrow, or what one can envision for the apartment. Also, notice that most of these creative liberties are taken with downtown properties, where a one bedroom for anything less that $700,000 would definitely get a buyer to pull out a listing.

I have to say, I respect front_porch for admitting why s/he engages in the practice. Some of these other explanations, total nonsense.

And Urbandigs - presumably that is why a broker has a license - because s/he operates according to certain standards and ethics, and has the ability to say to a client, "this is a studio, and I will list it as a studio for this price, with these features. It is not a one bedroom, and if I list it that way it would not be truthful, and I won't do that." Because at the end of the day, misrepresentations in the sale of apartments, cars, or securities/investments is just plain wrong. And ethical people in the business just don't do it.

midageguy - in regards to "presumably that is why a broker has a license - because s/he operates according to certain standards and ethics" - i hear you but you are assuming the world is perfect, when in reality, it is not. In a commission based industry where agents compete with each other for business, you never know what agents may be willing to do to increase dollar volume. I agree, it is wrong, but that doesnt mean it doesnt occur in the marketplace

One of the reasons why I have been lobbying rebny to greatly increase their "policing" role of this industry, to punish those that commit ethics violations and data integrity breaches. In fact, I proposed a # of architectural changes in the rls data-sharing structure that would allow rebny to be able to police data integrity breaches much more efficiently. Time will tell if changes occur.

ps: my dev team and I data mined over 25m broker status updates for 100s of thousands of listings records going back 7 years when we built the ud system. We saw every data breach imaginable. You must understand, the data is only as good as the agent that enters and maintains it in the RLS. The firms do have some levels of quality controls, but not nearly enough. There is simply not enough incentive to hire more people whose only job is data quality. This is also why a site like Streeteasy was able to be developed and succeed - as before, the nytimes broker generated advertisements was in essence, the default mls for manhattan. Now, streeteasy is often viewed as the mls in the capacity that an mls is a aggregation of all shared data for a local marketplace. And I know SE spent loads of time and money cleansing and sanitizing data, to adapt to the issues embedded in RLS/ACRIS. Rather than assume that a broker should operate at a certain level of standards, my view is another entity must police and enforce violations that the industry commits.

urbandigs, who will pay for the cost of that entity?

imo, rebny should be the entity to police data breaches and issue violations and these tasks should be added to an existing employee who already is familiar with the RLS and dealing with member firms.

And why is NYC so different, that it cannot have a standardized system or interfacing specificaion for data. Gee I wonder!

It's arbitrage. Given equal square footing the one bedroom typically goes for more, so the brokers try to obscure the sutdio status. Caveat(Domus) Emptor

I'd list this 648 sqft studio as a one bedroom without hesitation.

It's all about the square feet.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/634202-condo-382-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york

midageguy, thanx for the compliment. I'm female. I came to real estate from publishing (I founded and ran the real estate section of the Post) and I think a lot of my standards come from being trained by an old friend, a boutique broker who has been in the business for nearly 30 years. In my experience, if do you want to work with a broker downtown, if you can find someone who was a member of the old Downtown Brokers' Association (the industry entity that existed before REBNY) they'll be really good.

An underlying problem is that $500,000 apartments aren't commodities. Technological refinements aside (and yay digs for trying!) the experience of living in a straight studio is different from the experience of living in an alcove studio. Really! I call this one from personal experience: in my time in NY I've lived in three different studios (one for several years with my husband) over a total of fourteen years.

Further, co-ops are different from each other. The experience of living in the Quaker Ridge isn't the same as living in Gramercy Park Towers, despite the fact that those are mid-sized white brick buildings within three blocks of each other, built within a year of each other, so the layouts and neighborhood experience might seem similar.

So while the industry is trying to be more and more computer-focused (which is generally a good thing) and more and more accessible to outsiders (definitely a good thing to those of us who remember waiting for the Village Voice to come out to see what apartments were available) try to remember as a buyer that every studio is indeed a little bit different, and the "better" brokers are trying to convey, to the extent that they can, what's differentiated about the particular 500-sf-box that they happen to be selling.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

gcondo - rebny is actually making an attempt to do that, but its still got some ways to go. I hope to get more info on progress soon as they take control of rolex distribution process and implement a rets-compliant interface standard..i believe it will cost the vendors a good amount of money to upgrade to this new standard once its implemented in the future.

This apartment is also listed as a 3.5 rooms. How is that justified?

>imo, rebny should be the entity to police data breaches and issue violations and these tasks should be added to an existing employee who already is familiar with the RLS and dealing with member firms.

Problem is REBNY is an even bigger joke than the SEC has become.

"I'd list this 648 sqft studio as a one bedroom without hesitation.

It's all about the square feet.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/634202-condo-382-central-park-west-upper-west-side-new-york "

***

This is a STUDIO. If you want to be specific, call it an "alcove studio".

If it were a ONE BEDROOM, it would have a wall -- with a door -- closing it off from the rest of the apartment, which it clearly does not. It doesn't even have the kind of window layout that would allow you to do this.

In related news, Ali has a bridge to sell you that spans Brooklyn and Manhattan. It's not necessarily for sale, but has the *potential* to be for sale one day.

"This is a STUDIO. If you want to be specific, call it an "alcove studio"."

The apartment has the closet space, sqft and appropriate layout to be a one bedroom simply by putting in a dividing wall. You aren't going to find many studios with an 11'x13' "alcove".

The dividing wall doesn't need a door it has a foyer leading into the bedroom, perfect 1 bd layout.

That 'studio' is effectively a one bedroom. There are plenty of 'true one bedrooms' sold today in newer buildings in manhattan that wouldn't accommodate a couple as well as that alcove studio. It's just missing some wallboard and possibly has some heating/cooling issues. An investor or homeowner is smart to buy it for the extraordinarily low, non tax abated monthlies.

"That 'studio' is effectively a one bedroom."

No it's not.

It's an alcove studio.

Perhaps nicely-laid out. Perhaps even generously sized. But still -- a STUDIO.

Matt, how can you tell?

Also note that there are plenty of condos and renals advertised as 'alcove studios' that aren't much different from modest straight studios. The livability and occupancy potential of a studio varies by its size and layout, whether it has a separate kitchen and by the number/size of closets.

Matt, I live in an alcove studio. It can be described as a junior one because windows and two hvac units easilly accommodates a privacy wall. Some sellers in the line have added a wall and sold as a one bedroom. What's interesting is that many one bedrooms in newer buildings are no bigger. In fact many have less closet space. But I can assure you one cost of buying a one bedroom is higher common charges and unabated property taxes. I'd rather live more cheaply in a spacious alcove studio. Or live in an alcove studio on the UWS than in a one bedroom in Upstate Manhattan, but that's just my preference.

Nice list, PMG. I would add to it: building amenities. If you're trying to live in a relatively small space with another person, a nice lounge or roof deck in the building can function as extra living room, and make all the difference.

ali

PMG, I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm saying that there's a difference between an one-bedroom and a atudio, and it has nothing to do with size.

pardon the typos I'm on a crappy work computer.

Does this listing that comes up as a studio under search attract the right clientele?

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/670306-coop-377-west-11th-street-west-village-new-york

{Exaggerated square footage should be the focus of RE community ire}

urbandigs: "imo, rebny should be the entity to police data breaches and issue violations and these tasks should be added to an existing employee who already is familiar with the RLS and dealing with member firms."

Do you really think it's that simple in terms of the cost associated with validating the data, issuing the violations, dealing with the appeals process, etc... 'add these tasks to an existing employee'!!!???

Truthskr, at least the owner no longer describes the space as "rarely available'

LOL Hburg

PMG, ya I think 2 years on the market is more "medium well available."

Maybe the Matts of the world only clicking studio expecting none over $1mm and all those square foot hunters are clicking 1 bed plus.

>urbandigs: "imo, rebny should be the entity to police data breaches and issue violations and these tasks should be added to an existing employee who already is familiar with the RLS and dealing with member firms."

>Do you really think it's that simple in terms of the cost associated with validating the data, issuing the violations, dealing with the appeals process, etc... 'add these tasks to an existing employee'!!!???

Why is the SEC mostly uneffective as the REBNY would be but the police review board reasonably effective?
Because there are civilians on it.

can't believe I wrote uneffective......ineffective, or just plain safe non effective. :)

of course not..but there are simple solutions that can be implemented in the core of the rls sharing system that pushes integrity breaches forward to a) the approporiate person at an oversight entity, b) manager of the firm, and c) the agent at the firm on a weekly or monthly basis. Thats a start. That right there will help tremendously. If the agent doesnt pay a violation, the firm does. There already is an ethics committee that is in place and handles violations, appeals, etc. Yes, its way more than just what I wrote, but we need something in place that is more stringent than simply locking out the agent from their internal listings mgmt system when they dont update their listings in a timely manner. It needs to be thought out but first there needs to be motivation to actually implement such backend structural changes. Otherwise, its just a "lets forget about it" mentality

W67 why don't you make your wife happy and move into a POS studio?