So have to do the condo application (for purchase) and am asked to provide about 18 different documents, including four different reference letters. They also want six copies. Also a number of fees: $500 damage deposit (refundable); $400 move in fee; $300 application fee; $125 credit check fee.

The amount of information requested is both a pain in the ass, and frankly I don't think other condo owners have any business knowing every detail of my life. Fine if they want some proof I have a job and can pay monthlies, but I don't think they need more financial information then the bank asked for. And reference letters are so stupid. Just a pain in the ass and embarrassing to have to ask friends to write meaningless letters.

Have looked at past posts and some hint at there being legal limits to what the board can request. Can anyone point to what the governing laws for this are? Can I just give them that and tell them to shove it? Or is this an instance where you take your medicine and just do it?

Thanks!

Why does the credit check cost so much? Can't you get one for about $8 online? I checked my own credit this way a few months ago and it only cost me *one* dollar. (Plus an e-mail to confirm my cancellation of the ongoing credit monitoring service they wanted to sell me, but still, cheap.)

talk to the seller. if you like the apartment, frankly, it does not seem to be much. fees do not seem unusual as the managing agent has to cover his expenses and make a small profit. one thing you can do it not provide a full financial picture of assets - just adequate for them to feel comfortable. again, you seller can help with this.

as far as I know, the only way a condo can reject the sale is by exercising its right of first refusal. The application process is bullshyt and there to enrich a managing agent, because this is not a coop and the contract cannot be rejected. Ask your lawyer if you can challenge this. let us know what happens.

Isnt all this one reason people say coops are less desireable for them than cobdosL. If condos start having packages like this they start looking a lot more like coops in terms of purchase hurdles. Are the rules in an offering plan or something for a condo? I wouldnt think there are actual laws dictating what a condo can set as rules in this regard. I know very little about condos. Would be great to read from others how these procedures are set for condos.

Seller can call the board and managing agent to ask if every buyer went through the process. If that is what the condo does with all sales, you can either spend on a lawyer to enforce the contract and work nicely with the seller to reduce the paperwork requirements. Suck up the fees. Move in fee is very common. So is the application fee. This is how managing agents pay for their expenses and make a little money. Reference letter are the easiest. Write them yourself and send to your friends who can fax then back to you. No more than a few hours of work. Every does it in NYC unless you are buying a townhouse.

Sorry typo
Seller can call the board and managing agent to ask if every buyer went through the process. If that is what the condo does with all sales, you can either spend on a lawyer to enforce the contract OR work nicely with the seller to reduce the paperwork requirements. Suck up the fees. Move in fee is very common. So is the application fee. This is how managing agents pay for their expenses and make a little money. Reference letter are the easiest. Write them yourself and send to your friends who can fax then back to you. No more than a few hours of work. Every does it in NYC unless you are buying a townhouse.

CONDO application packages are total bullshit.

The only things -- legally -- that a condo association (they're not really a "board") can ask of any applicant are your name and current address.

THAT'S IT.

No credit report.

No reference letters.

NOTHING ELSE.

It amuses me to no end how much these "condo" people so self-righteously criticize the "invasive" nature of co-ops, themselves avoiding personal scrutiny by buying into a condo building, then turning right around and playing "let's pretend" as if they were a real co-op themselves.

seller can tell them that they do not have the right to do this and they are unlikely to lie once the discussion has legal tone. what do people think about the fees - I do not think that is unusual in anyway. I have see rental buildings charge that.

Thanks for replies. Fees don't bother me that much. Just a little ironic that they charge $300 to go over a meaningless package. And the credit report - as mentioned I have one I can give you. I am essentially paying for a service that I don't want and is a waste of time.

Beyond the fee though is the invasiveness of the process and the fact that I am asked to hand over detailed information - social, all financial information, other background info to a bunch of total strangers. So I hand over all these personal details and then Bob from 4D takes it home and throws it on his table, maybe looks at it and then throws it in the trash? Serious privacy issues if you ask me. And that what irks me.

I get that this is part of the co-op process, but this is not a co-op and it is different. So NYCMatt you say legally you only need to give A, B, C. But where do you get that from? If that was the case I could say, Dear Board, according to law X I am required to provide the following information.... As a matter of courtesy I have also provided a proof of my income. I look forward to you waiving your right of first refusal.

So really question is can Condo Boards just ask for whatever they want?

Thanks!

Ottawa, your broker should have conveyed to you some sense of the process of which buildings would actively be a pain in the tail vs. which buildings have fairly "easy" applications.

That said, these fees aren't bad at all. I think at this point it's close to $4000 to put in a rental application at the Orion, though some of those are refundable.

Since you were taken aback by this, you should google "FIRPTA" which is usually the other big surprise for foreigners.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

This sounds exactly like what I had to go through to purchase my condo and I every buyer (other than the sponsor sales) went through the same process. I agree it is BS since no way a condo is actually going to use its right of first refusal, but they do have that right and thus the right to vet candidates. Sorry - you need to provide the info.

"Condo boards and managing agents are just as invasive as coops."

Wrong.

Condo "boards" are only as "invasive" as applicants ALLOW them to be.

"but they do have that right and thus the right to vet candidates. Sorry - you need to provide the info."

No, they don't have that right, and no, you do NOT need to provide ANY info..

I would run like the wind. Talk to your lawyer, and if she can't help, get another one. Forget about the broker helping.
Having just sold/selling our co-op apartments in Manhattan, I vowed never again to put myself through the co-op approval process. The reason condos increasingly command the premium over coops is that young people today refuse to go through this type of nonsense. Unlike previous generations, they refuse to let a bunch of blue hairs who got their apartment when the building converted from a rental (and who probably couldn't afford to buy it today, let alone meet the " stringent board requirements") tell them whether they are "the right kind" to be their neighbor. Many times it is latent discrimination. IMHO, this is a building that is trying, improperly, to exert control over who can buy. And they will be just as difficult when/if you go to sell to your buyer.

truth - i understand. my point, perhaps too subtle, was that if OP is buying a condo and paying a premium she should not be going through this type of nonsense, normally reserved for a coop. a "condo application package" is an oxymoron.

Thank you, midageguy. Not only is it an oxymoron, it's illegal.

Thanks - Am complaining more about the pain in the ass part of it. And that it is needlessly invasive and should not be part of the condo process. It is pointless. I could submit them reference letters that say I am a douche and bank statements that say I have no money and what can they do? Buy the place themselves? It is just a completely pointless process that does not happen elsewhere. And problem is that you don't want to get in a fight over principal after going through the whole process, but nor do I really want my neighbours accessing all of my personal information when it has no purpose. Maybe it's just me but it strikes me as fundamentally bizarre to hand over all your life details for no reason. If they need proof of income, sure no problem, but my bank statements? What country, which ones? I could give them anything. Just stupid.

I think if I wanted I could just give the fees (fair enough - except the credit one) and then a letter saying blow me. They then have thirty days to exercise their refusal. They don't actually have recourse. They going to try and block the sale? Just pointless and dumb.

And Ali, I know what FIRTPA is. But I also know the difference between a condo and a coop. And this is not a rental. The role of the condo board in sales is basically to rubberstamp sales.

And this is not an issue that will kill the deal - just annoys me as I don't like doing needless things because everyone else accepts doing needless things. I mean this city is full of smart people? Why do they put up with stupid crap like this?

"I think if I wanted I could just give the fees (fair enough - except the credit one) and then a letter saying blow me. They then have thirty days to exercise their refusal. They don't actually have recourse. They going to try and block the sale?"

Not sure why you're getting all upset about this. Why don't you just do as you've said above, and then proceed as you would like, knowing there's no reason for "stupid crap like this"? Call their bluff, and save yourself some gray hairs. No need to get all bent out of shape.

Its a discussion board Lucy. I would think that this is a good place to vent and possibly seek some feedback. Appreciate the concern, but I am not exactly losing sleep over this. If on the other hand I call their bluff and they do try and do something, that could lead to graying hair.

But Ottawa, some buildings are worse than others. I've sold condos to people who didn't have to go through this folderol -- it really is very building-dependent.

Could one by pass the application process by acquiring the condominium in the name of a corporation or LLC?

Matt - Once again, you are wrong. They do have the right - it is in the bylaws. If a potential purchaser won't share the information the board requests, the sale won't go through. If you (or the OP) doesn't believe me - try not providing the information and see what happens to your sale.

I should clarify - some condo boards require more information than others. Mine required a lot of documentation. Others may require more, many require less. But to say that a potential seller can simply refuse to provide information is just plain wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/11/realestate/your-home-the-right-of-refusal-in-condos.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

As an alternative, however, most condo governing documents give the board a right of first refusal when an apartment is being sold.

''A right of first refusal basically means that the condominium association itself has the right to become the purchaser of apartments being sold in the building,'' said Richard Siegler, a Manhattan co-op and condo lawyer. Mr. Siegler explained that the primary reason a condominium board would want such a right is to ensure a community of ''friendly, qualified, congenial residents.''

''In other words, the right of first refusal gives the board the ability to weed out a buyer who is really undesirable,'' Mr. Siegler said. ''And they do that by buying the apartment themselves.''

He pointed out that while condos do not have the same ability as co-ops to delve into a buyer's personal and financial background, some condo bylaws require the seller to provide some information about the buyer.

''Knowing something about a buyer's income and assets would be key,'' Mr Siegler said. He added that if the seller would not provide the information, the board could essentially block the sale by refusing to issue a waiver of its right of first refusal.

If what downtown writes above is accurate, what law is mattnyc saying bars this? Matt said a lot of times above ats this is illegal. I still dont understand what law is being broken.

I remember reading that unlike coops if an owner defaults and is forced to sell, the condo is not first in line for the overdue maintenance. If that happens and there's no monies left to pay the condo, then the remaining owners are on the hook for the defaulting maintenance. Perhaps that's the reason why condo boards are now asking for more financial data. Don't know if this is an issue for NYC condos.

hburg, legal tone is effectively reading the law in a friendly manner and saying that I have a contract and will appreciate being told where they are coming from legally.

"And this is not an issue that will kill the deal - just annoys me as I don't like doing needless things because everyone else accepts doing needless things. I mean this city is full of smart people? Why do they put up with stupid crap like this?"

Ottawa, smart people have figured out to suck it up, divulge a reasonable basis amount (letter from the company which say comp last year was greater than $xx rather than actual comp or just state the base salary if it is big enough, bank account with enough money to pay for 2 year maintenance and taxes), write a few letters and get your friends to sign it, and get it over with rather than protest purely on principle. It is not easy to find an apartment you like (location, price, floor, light, winning the bid etc) which is why people suck it up. There are better uses for your energy such as decorating the apartment, reno etc.

Is it smart or stupid? I personally wouldn't want to buy into a condo with these rules. The price premium is due to the ease of trading. Buying a condo with these ridiculous demands would give you the worst of both worlds: pretentious, foolish neighbors, and the inability to actually, legally enforce house rules. OP, this should be your warning: this is not the building for you; they will annoy you to no end.

I agree wait till you want to sell your condo. if you think you are annoyed now you'll even be more frustrated the longer your there. Love to know what company is managing this condo building as well for they are probably micro managers and will charge you every time they find out when your flushing your toilet. What are the taxes and maintenance in this building? I have a feeling they are higher than normal per sq ft.

"Matt - Once again, you are wrong. They do have the right - it is in the bylaws. "

They can put anything they want in their bylaws.

Doesn't make it legal.

As a member of a condo board for 10 years, I can tell you why this is done. The condo cannot reject you unless they buy your apartment. However, there have been numerous problems with new buyers defaulting on monthly maintenance. If you get all the financials on a new buyer, you have a lot of information helpful in getting your money.

When the condo was first formed, we had two buyers who did not pay maintenance for 2 years. When we started imposing fines for non-payment, one moved out and filed for bankruptcy. The other separated from his wife and filed for divorce. The husband skipped town and the wife stayed in the apartment although her name was not on the deed. She did not pay maintenance because she said she was not an owner. She also did extensive damages to the hallway and compactor room to the tune of $10,000. The other 98 owners were stuck with covering the shortfall for two years maintenance on 2 apartments along with these damages. In both cases, the bank took over the properties since the owners also did not pay their mortgages. After the banks recouped their monies from the sale, the condo got absolutely nothing.

We got smart and implemented all these things. The next owner who pulled this and did not try to work with us was hauled into court for foreclosure proceedings. The court gave them a set date for paying the back maintenance and our legal fees. When they didn't comply, the court ordered foreclosure on a set date if this wasn't resolved. We notified all their banks about this ruling. The back maintenance was immediately paid in full.

Most condos do not have the money to buy the apartment if it suspects the buyer will be a problem. So, one way that the condo can protect itself is to demand all sorts of documentation and references. The condo can keep on asking for more information until they are satisfied that the buyer is okay. Those who have something to hide usually back out of the deal. However, having someone delve into the application and look for potential problems costs the condo money. That's why all the fees.

FYI - most condos now require they be notified of any changes to your mortgage or the addition of a home equity. ACRIS provides some safeguards since your mortgage changes get logged in by the city.

As for move-in/out fees, that's pretty standard in any established condo. You wouldn't believe the damages caused by moving (and renovations).

Ask yourself, would you want to have to pay a sizable assessment or maintenance increase to cover for your neighbors who don't pay their maintenance or cause extensive damages to the common areas? The doormen have to be paid by someone. Your apartment looses value if the hallways are shabby or the elevators look seedy or go out of service frequently.

Remember, whether you have a condo or cooperative, you don't own a house. Your part of some degree of communal living. By the way, the courts uphold these condo mandates.

MAtt - IF you are so certain that if a condo board asks for financial or other information it is illegal, please direct me to a statute in either NYC or NYS that supports your position. Otherwise, please go back to morning side and work on your next incorrect or meaningless post. Thank you.

300 Mercer - self-preservation should not be confused for intelligence. More general point is that it does not matter what I give them, good or bad. Their recourse remains the same regardless: right of first refusal. So if Bob from 4D does not like the way my financials look, based on whatever his particular expertise might be, it simply does not matter.

jelj13 - thanks for input from someone who has some experience with this. While I understand why you think you do ask for this, I still don't see the why. The power you think you should wield also frankly worries me as an owner. First, no condo is going to have every owner paying their dues. Not a realistic expectation. When I buy a condo I understand that I will suck up costs for a variety of matters. None payment of dues is entirely foreseeable. The idea that you and your board feel that you have the right to keep demanding more information from prospective buyers until you collectively - in your own opinions - deem it sufficient is worrying. As an owner I would see this as more of a liability issue. I understand joint ownership; I don't expect to control everything and will suck up costs. Sounds like you want to impose your rules and decide who is worthy to live in your building.

I just don't get it because it all doesn't matter. The board can ask for whatever. Then they have 30 days to act upon their right of first refusal. This does not need to be reasonable or explained. It is a right. So I suspect that maybe this would be exercised if unit was being sold for an unreasonably low amount. But the maintenance angle - bullshit. Has a board ever acted on its right of first refusal because it - again in its unprofessional opinion - did not like? As if.

Any case, interesting that so many seem to think this is normal. Guess it revolves around the fact that NYC is last bastion of co-ops and people seem to think this is normal. Do you have privacy laws in this country? Seriously.

"By the way, the courts uphold these condo mandates."

Bullshit.

Which courts?

I looked and I can't find anything that explicitly imposes any limits on what they could require.

Condo Act: 339.v 2. The by-laws may also provide for the following:
(a) Provisions governing the alienation, conveyance, sale, leasing,
purchase, ownership and occupancy of units, provided, however, that the
by-laws shall contain no provision restricting the alienation,
conveyance, sale, leasing, purchase, ownership and occupancy of units
because of race, creed, color or national origin.

So you could establish rules that discriminate on other grounds: like financial. But more this just says nothing and then you turn to the by-laws. SO I looked at by-laws and says something to the effect of: seller needs to provide board with the name, address, etc of the buyer AND ANY OTHER INFORMATION IT DEEMS NECESSARY.

So basically it says that it can ask for anything. BUT - what it does not say is anything about an application package. It can ask the seller to provide information about the sale, but no where says anything about an application package or needing to pass it. Just that it can request some information and then has thirty days to buy the place.

Am sure that if you pushed the point it would be pretty clear that the scope of the board to request information would be limited to information about the conditions of the sale - as opposed to information about the individual buying, but would be a pain.

Its not only about a Condo's right of first refusal. A potential buyer needs a lot of info from a managing agent. You cannot get a mortgage without the HOA or managing agent filing out and signing a bank's condo mortgage questionnaire and that is just one example. Good luck getting them to do anything if you dont pay reasonable fees and provide the application.

The by-laws specify that the seller provides requested information by registered mail. That starts clock ticking. Board would not be able to reject it provided information was there. - that is my reading at least. So they can make up requirements, but unless they have clearly stated in the by laws they can't just keep asking for more info.

Ottawa - did I read you right? You are buying a condo and actually expect your cost to include nonpayment of maintenance from some of the owners? I would only want to pay my fair share and certainly would not want to have to pick up someone's share so they can continue to live there for two years. That's nuts.

lovetocook, in theory I agree with you, but Ottawa is simply being practical. A coop can foreclose much easier for non-payment of maintenance than a condo can for non-payment of common charges. In the case of a condo, the building is subordinated to the bank holding the mortgage and the funds might not be there to pay off the amount owed after all is said and done. In my building we are dealing with an owner that hasn't paid in a very long time- but we won't likely see a dime on past due amounts if we foreclose since the owner is likely underwater on their mortgage. Someone has to cover those expenses- and I wish it wasn't myself and the other owners, but that is likely the scenario.

Can someone explain for me: as I see it, if a prospective purchaser gets turned down, because board is exercising it's god given right of first refusal, other than assessing each owner, pro rata, their share of the apt, *for arguments sake, 2.3 million: how will the board pay for this apt at the agreed upon price? Bylaws usually give them the right to assess each owner pro rata. there are those, perhaps, studio apt owners, albeit with less pro rata shares, but isn't it possible that they would essentially bankrupt some of these existing owners?
If I owned a condo, i'd be scared crapless that some board of 5 men could impose this on the rest of the building, Can this happen? how else would they pay for a 2.3 million apt, on which they exercised their right of first refusal. Sounds way more dangerous than a coop, unless, I am totally totally misunderstanding the law. those condo owners sign some durable power of atty, and the few condo board members seem to have absurd ability to bankrupt half a building (theoretically speaking, of course). OK, WHAT AM I MISSING HERE? Clearly it's not in their interests. but......

"So, one way that the condo can protect itself is to demand all sorts of documentation and references. The condo can keep on asking for more information until they are satisfied that the buyer is okay."

This sounds just like what in your condo's board's DNA and you think when you want to sell your buyer won't be subject to this as well. If they don't like your buyer they can keep asking for more and more information. I'd pass on this building many red flags right from the start.

They can't just ask for whatever. In bylaws it needs to say what is required. Then you submit them what is required by the method proscribed in the by-laws. In my case, the seller provides information by registered mail. They can't then request more info. They can try, but thirty day period starts. Then - to answer - gaongang they can call a special meeting of owners and vote on whether they want to buy the place through a special assessment for the purchase based on the same terms. So could not really really be forced on you unless a majority of the owners wanted it. In short this would never happen, unless there was some extreme situation.

But in general I believe the more that the board tries to act like a co-op, the more they open themselves up for a lawsuit. I mean if I decided to only submit minimal information and they tried to block me I would go live in a hotel and then sue them. After I won all the other owners would have to pay for my expenses and the legal fees the board would accumulate. It is just dumb in my opinion as they are powerless and if you think you can prevent someone from selling their place because you don't like their finances or references you are wrong. (but seems you can ask)

If you don't want to provide the information and think you can get away with it, then just don't provide it. Then come back here in a few weeks and let us know how it works out. You will be looking for a new apartment. You need to the condo board and the managing agent to cooperate with you at the closing (even more so if you are getting a mortgage).

even if you were a convicted axe murderer a condo board can not turn you down. What they can do it just continue to ask for more information until you go away. Kind of Sounds like what they are doing to you.

You're right huntersburg I don't want to live any Condo building that will accept people like me as a resident.

I don't understand why the OP doesn't just provide the information. I went through it when I purchased my condo and agree it is stupid - NFW the condo board is actually going to exercise its right of first refusal. Having said that, I wasn't going to take the time to fight about it (and certainly wasn't going to threaten legal action or think of ending up in court as others have suggested).