DUMBO worse off than other areas of Brooklyn?

When I think of DUMBO, I'm not thinking about these buildings. I'm thinking One Main, Shelby and 70 Washington. These buildings have been very successful to date.

DUMBO has actually been more stable than much of nearby Brooklyn. There has been a lot of construction, but JCondo sold out before the crash, and the others resorted to some renting, with only some price chops. There isn't a lot of new inventory hitting now, most of it hit already.

Vinegar Hill is another story.. thats been having major problems for years (see 99 gold). That stuff is going to be down for a while... its missing most of what people pay DUMBO dollars for.... not being next to the projects (dumbo residents thank vinegar hill for being hte buffer), the park (already finished in the prime areas), the cobbestone shopping areas (main/washington), the yuppie bastards (filling up jcondo and 70 washington) and even a 3-4 block trip to thhe A train for some of those.

J Condo, 70 Washington and One Main are all so new and soul-less. I was interested in the converted warehouses.

babsie, J Condo I can understand but 70 Wash and One Main soul-less? Have you ever been in either building?

Two classic buildings. Both have a soul that has improved with time.

> I was interested in the converted warehouses.

Uh, 70 Washington and 1 Main are converted warehouses/factories.

They're two of the building exteriors that make DUMBO DUMBO. I don't love the job they did inside 70 Wash, but thats the case with pretty much anything coming to market. 1 Main is the best / most expensive old building conversion in the area, and for a reason. Its also probably the most filmed/photographed building in the area.

My guess is this guy doesn't actually know where DUMBO is....

Eddie, I can't believe that we agree on something. You actually made a sensible statement that wasn't manic.

I'm impressed.

Well, maybe because we're finally talking about something you aren't shilling for...

;-)

good one. bump

"DUMBO has actually been more stable than much of nearby Brooklyn."

Sounds like EddieWilson is doing the shilling now. Interesting how he craps on every neighborhood except for the one he lives in.

Yes, I'm looking for DUMBO prices to double this year.
Get a grip.... you have no idea what you're talking about.

The Heights/Cobble Hill/Carrol Gardens will be the most stable in Brooklyn, more so than DUMBO. The neighborhoods I mentioned would have issues are LIC and the Flatbush corridor. DUMBO was just lucky that the inventory hit before the main part of the crash.

Also, you'll notice that today I noted Upper East and FiDi as longer-term bets...

So what exactly am I shilling for again?

I think those apartments the original poster mentioned have sold. "Unavailable" is the terminology that Streeteasy uses when a property goes off the market. Streeteasy doesn't speak to anyone, their system simply goes to that Web address, sees that the property is no longer listed there, and then Streeteasy marks it as unavailable. In 4 months, once the papers have been processed, the sales will appear on ACRIS (what does that stand for?) and then Streeteasy will mark them as Sold. Of course, the owners could have decided not to sell, or something else, but usually it means it's sold.

"The Heights/Cobble Hill/Carrol Gardens will be the most stable in Brooklyn, more so than DUMBO."

Eddie, isn't this exactly what we were arguing about a few weeks ago?

fratello, these haven't sold. The linked listing in the OP reads "Temporarily off the Market." That's the broker's doing. The other three read "No Longer Available," but two of them are over 6 months old (they'd have cloded by now) and none of them are listed "In Contract." There are obviously closings in the building, as there's a sales price for 517's April closing.

Automated City Register Information System

> Eddie, isn't this exactly what we were arguing about a few weeks ago?

Reread the thread... I said the margin might close, but DUMBO will keep its PSF advantage over 'em. And, I'm talking more about CH/CG. Long term, I'd definitely put the bet there, I think BH is sort of maxed out.

I also said I hated DUMBO....

actually, the bigger point is, I'd short *any* of Brooklyn right now...

Do me a favor Eddie and short the Toren. There is no doubt in my mind you are a contrary indicator.

The more you dump on the Toren and the Flatbush Corridor, the more amendments I get declaring price increases. Keep up the good work.

I went into contract 2.5 months ago and my apartment has appreciated $16,000. Another words, individuals are buying same layout as mine for more money on lower floors. Not saying this is an earth shattering amount but sure better than a decrease.

By the way, where does Mr. Wilson reside?

Junk, I really think as much as Eddie is likely whatever you think of him, your "appreciation" is merely a marketing expense for the developer, so I wouldn't pat myself on the back for $16K.

Marketing expense? What are you talking about? Let me repeat, the exact same apartment underneath me sold for thousands more than I paid for mine. That isn't marketing. Are you an Eddie Wilson clone? Not patting myself on the back. I said it wasn't earth shattering. Sometimes I wonder what rocks some of you guys crawl out from under. Weird.

> Junk, I really think as much as Eddie is likely whatever you think of him, your "appreciation" is
> merely a marketing expense for the developer, so I wouldn't pat myself on the back for $16K.

Why is it any surprise that the place that uses that idiotic trick is the same place that suckered JunkMan into buying there? Guess he got what he deserved...

Sorry, that last sentence was mean... I take that back.

But I still have to laugh about JunkMan buying the same shtick twice...

Any neighborhood that is not grounded with occupants living there for a good length of time is suspect to go down dramatically. LIC for instance, even Williamsburg, but to a lesser extent. The owners for these areas have little equity. If prices come down, the equity for some owners become negative and the best move is to keep the banks away until the sheriff comes. Why pay inflated prices even if you can afford it?

that is a good point. The high potential underwater factor can hurt if things do turn sour....

We need an update on DUMBO. How about some opinion from EddieWilson / nyc10022?

There has'nt been a better time to buy in DUMBO, now is the time to buy in DUMBO. Buy now or be priced out forever in DUMBO, catch that falling knife and buy that depreciating asset in DUMBO. LMBBAO

took me a while to figure out what lmbbao means. shouldn't you be more politically correct and be
LMPSAAAO ... Big -> Plus Sized, and the other B replaced by AA, I'm sure you can figure that out.

Dumbo is interesting because it's an unusually high concentration of condos, but it's a relatively small area, so a bit of a niche market in some regards. Pricing there got a little out of control some time ago, I'm guessing due to the relative proximity to Wall St, and many young and wealthier types being drawn to its hipness factor (not sure about this, just my speculation). They did a good job keepnig major chains out of the area, but I don't think real estate will hold its value as well as some of the more established Brooklyn neighborhoods.

mutombonyc, are you going to post that on every single thread? It's getting tired, big guy.

bjw2103, when the topic calls for it I will post it. Did not mean to make you tired. But its funny how Karma's a bitch.

I know Dumbo well and I remember when Gleason's Gym was the only PRIME thing happening there.

Am i missing something on dumbo? I went out ther for dinner and drinks and there was literally almost nothing going on. A scattering of places here and there but a far cry from say williamsburg or brooklyn heights.

mutombonyc, it wasn't a particularly insightful comment, and no, it didn't make me tired, but it IS tired (as in, it's getting old). Not sure how your point about karma is relevant to anything here.

Special_K, I tend to agree with you about the area. It's fairly quiet, though it can get pretty busy on those long summer days, especially by the park area. I think it's nice for certain people, but yes, a lot of people go there are have the same reaction you did. Williamsburg and Carroll Gardens have far more active social scenes.

DUMBO is a wasteland. There's nothing going on there.

Williamsburg is more active, but the social scene is comprised of mostly annoying hipsters. If you're one of them, you'll love it, but for everyone else, williamsburg is a miserable place to be.

dumbo is MUCH smaller than all the areas mentioned... but I believe it actually has a much higher ratio of restaurants and bars than BH/CH, and probably a few notches higher than WB.

You're talking about what I believe is around 1,000 residents... not sure how much volume of stuff one would expect.

But I have the figure the gallery to people, club to people, bar to people, restaurants to people rations are very darn high.

nyc10022, how many bars are there in Dumbo? To my knowledge, very very few. Williamsburg has much more going on in terms of galleries, bars, resturants, etc. I don't think it's even close, even in terms of "ratios," which is a nice new twist on rationalization. You did live in Dumbo at one point, no?

I have not lived right there, but I have spent a good amount of time there (had a "friend").

As for bars, the one under Rice, the one on J, rebar, Superfine come to mind. The latter two are very large...

Also remember that Galapagos left Williamsburg and moved to DUMBO. Its also another bar, but I think the bigger thing is its a club that holds hundreds in an area with 1000 people. Also, St. Anns.

Hell, I think there are more bars and clubs than all of BH...

In terms of galleries, I think you're just wrong there. I had heard at one point that half the space in Walentas buildings is reservered for galleries.... and there are a LOT of buildings.

I'm not talking ratios, I'm talking absolutely.... DUMBO is gallery central.

nyc10022, that's really all there is in terms of bars, though isn't it? NY Mag only lists 4, one of which is a restaurant. As for galleries, there's no doubt Dumbo has a nice art scene with quite a few galleries (and yes, Galapagos did move because of the cheaper rent), but Williamsburg has A LOT - the gallery list on FreeWilliamsburg is quite long and not even comprehensive. I think you're wrong on that count.

As a slight aside, your defending of Dumbo is just another coincidence in terms of eerie similarities to EddieWilson, right? ;)

> Galapagos did move because of the cheaper rent

Because it got subsidized. Thats why there is a lot.

As for DUMBO, I think I'm just a devil's advocate.... I know the city pretty well, having been here for, well, lets just say a lot of years. I actually had a relative who worked in DUMBO 20 years back...

> NY Mag only lists 4, one of which is a restaurant.

That reminds me... there is that DUMBO general store bar that is now a mexican place sometimes. That got like a full page writeup in NYMag. I think a lot of them are combos... that seems to be the thing in dumbo. I've eaten at superfine, which is technically a restaurant, but there is a big bar scene as the night goes on. I think it comes from there just being a lot of big spaces, so combos work more, as opposed to neighborhoods in manhattan where you turn 100 square feet into a bar.

Back to the bigger point, DUMBO is a small relatively isolated (for NYC spot). Which I think can be considered a downside for some, but seems to also be a big positive for others. In terms of "stuff", some things are clearly missing, but some things there is just an overabundance of. Not sure how much more "stuff" would be expected of a place thats really just a few blocks.

bjw, do you include what's on the dumbo side of the street that goes to the water (cadman west)? I'm always iffy on calling grimaldi's dumbo, but there is the strip there, too, 5 front is a highly rated place. Its not BH, and noone says "fulton ferry' anymore.

And eagle warehouse was marketing its apartments as DUMBO... so you might want to throw that into the mix, especially since they're connecting the areas a bit better now.

Fair enough, nyc10022. I know the General Store pretty well - it's a bit crazy how that place has changed over the years. I was there in 2005 and it was a dingy, deserted place. I went again this past summer and it was crowded, renovated, and pretty fun. As for the "combo" idea, I think that's just more prevalent in Brooklyn to begin with. Not too many places in Manhattan like Floyd's (with an indoor bocce court), Public Assembly (which took over the Galapagos space), or the Gutter (bar/bowling alley). But yes, Dumbo is quite small, which is why I said earlier it's got a niche demographic. Some will "get it"; others won't. I hear you on the name game for the Grimaldi's area. It's not really Dumbo per se, but you're right, people look at you funny when you say "Fulton Ferry," so I use Dumbo by default. It's kind of been adopted into the neighborhood and I imagine that process will only continue from the BQE to the Navy Yard, which seem like more "natural" boundaries.

> As for the "combo" idea, I think that's just more prevalent in Brooklyn to begin with.

Absolutely. As I said, its about having space.

Floyd's doesn't have food though... you order in pizza or Chip Shop (which I like). And a boccee court to me is like calling a bar a combo because it has pinball. ;-)

"It's not really Dumbo per se, but you're right, people look at you funny when you say "Fulton Ferry," so I use Dumbo by default. It's kind of been adopted into the neighborhood and I imagine that process will only continue from the BQE to the Navy Yard, which seem like more "natural" boundaries."

Absolutely. Especially since they are renovating the stuff on the street on the water. And knocked down the building under the bridge. If Dock Street gets built, that will seal it... they'll call it dumbo.

> But yes, Dumbo is quite small, which is why I said earlier it's got a niche demographic.

I'm not with you on the logic there - you are connecting two unrelated things. Lots of things are small, with a very wide demographic.

Hell, yuppies who want to think they are arty and want more room.... sounds like one of the widest demographics in this town to me.

Its a small area with wide appeal... hence its hurdling the other areas in price points.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply Floyd's had food - I was just going with the "more space" theme. The point was, it's hard to find a similar place in Manhattan.

"Absolutely. Especially since they are renovating the stuff on the street on the water. And knocked down the building under the bridge. If Dock Street gets built, that will seal it... they'll call it dumbo."

I agree - I don't even think it's an if, but a when.

"I'm not with you on the logic there - you are connecting two unrelated things. Lots of things are small, with a very wide demographic.

Hell, yuppies who want to think they are arty and want more room.... sounds like one of the widest demographics in this town to me.

Its a small area with wide appeal... hence its hurdling the other areas in price points."

I'm not saying it's a niche just because it's small, but I think it's a niche because it's fairly quiet (aside from the trains on the bridge), and has cultivated a pretty specific kind of culture, AND it's pretty small. As you said, it's too small to have a bit of every amenity, and the Walentas guys have targeted groups and tenants, which only furthers that notion. It's not for everyone - just read what Special_K wrote above; it's not an uncommon reaction. Those who like it though, tend to really love it.

> the Walentas guys have targeted groups and tenants, which only furthers that notion.

Shall we ignore the fact that no building had more ads in the Times or NY Mag than 70 Washington.... Walentas' 70 Washington. There might have been a narrower range early on in the neighborhood, but thats been an outdated notion since the big buildings all hit. Similar stories for the towers that came in.

DUMBO is a great place to live with so many great art-related and family-oriented events going on specially in the summer and hey, let's not forget about Mr.yellow-thong man sunbathing religiously at the Fulton Ferry Satate Park...what an asset to the neighborhood ! SEriously, We now have a farmers market, world class parks (PLURAL) and great neighborhood charactger! Another plus: we're now considered a landmark neighborhood so, undoubtly, great things are happenbing here. Walentas wants to come up with a massive buidling on Dock st but city officials and locals oppose it so I doubt he'll be allowed to build as big as he wants to considering that the structure will be right next to the historical Brooklyn Bridge. Dumbo rocks!

Families, single women (per the times article)... to add to the single men leaning from before all the development.

Sounds pretty "niche" to me...

;-)

oh what a shock, nyc10022 has a comment on the thread he started commenting on as EddieWilson

wow, you really are obsessed with me...

"There might have been a narrower range early on in the neighborhood, but thats been an outdated notion since the big buildings all hit. Similar stories for the towers that came in."

No, you're confusing things here. They targeted specific RETAIL tenants - the residential tenants they let take care of themselves, largely assuming they would follow the retail they were bringing in. That is precisely how you attract a "niche" market. And having people of both sexes and different household sizes does NOT mean it's not a niche. That's silly.

Still the most expensive neighborhood in Brooklyn

> And having people of both sexes and different household sizes does NOT mean it's not a niche.

We're running out of niches then. ;-)

Exactly what niche do you think DUMBO is focused on?

colosir, that has a lot to do with the mix here - it's overwhelmingly condos.

"Exactly what niche do you think DUMBO is focused on?"

I think it's for people who don't need every amenity within walking distance, like quiet, sometimes deserted-feeling streets, like high-rise condos, and who have a strong dislike for big chain retail. I would also say you'd find people here who aren't overly dependent on the subway - there's only one stop for one line (the F) in the entire neighborhood, and it's a bit of an unpleasant walk to the A/C on High St. That "nichey" enough for you? Again, not knocking it, but it's important to see the neighborhood as it is. Those who love the things I described will truly love it, and I think that's great.

Yeah, sorry... that just sounds completely fabricated to me. We'll have to agree to disagree.

They're had a lot of success of getting yuppies of all types in there, and kept prices by far the highest in the borough... I think its the only area that sold all its apartments.

"Completely fabricated"? Are you telling me Dumbo is loud and bustling? It doesn't have a lot of high-rise condos? There's a lot of big-chain retail? Lots of subway options? Come on.

BJW, are you actually defending your description of a race of folks who don't like amenities?

Sorry, I just think you are making a huge stretch here. I don't agree with the assessment at all... they went VERY wide in their marketing, and seem to be one of the few neighborhoods successful in doing so. They've got familes, singles, a little of everything... and a high demand as shown by prices and sales. I've never heard anyone mistake that for "niche" before...

btw, people who "like high-rise condos" is also wrong.... you have some towers, but then you also have low-rise blocks as well. Its a historic district now. Plus some 3 story stuff as well.

I think its a little wacky to note the size of building as part of "niche" when its got one of the widest ranges of anywhere.

Unless there is the niche of people who like small, big, and medium buildings and are male or female and have or don't have kids.

:-)

nyc10022, I'm not saying they don't like amenities (not sure why you used the word "race" there, but ok), but rather that, unlike some Manhattanites (and many of the new yuppie crowd that gets stereotyped on other sites), they don't need every little need taken care of in their neighborhood. Sure there are families and single people there, but I think it's clear why this neighborhood would appeal to people with a different set of tastes and mentality. I think they did their homework and knew this set also tends to be fairly well off.

Most of the housing stock IS high-rise condos, sorry. It's a small area with a high concentration of these, so for people who don't like towers in their neighborhood, it won't be particularly appealing. With all this defense of Dumbo (and I'm not even really criticizing it here), it's just amazing you're still denying you're just EddieWilson using another screenname!

> not sure why you used the word "race" there, but ok),

joke...

> but rather that, unlike some Manhattanites (and many of the new yuppie crowd that gets stereotyped
> on other sites), they don't need every little need taken care of in their neighborhood

Thing is, I think they got them, too. Maybe they suckered 'em, maybe they said its coming, who knows.... but a friend who was one of the first legal residents in DUMBO made it clear to me that they got the stock manhattan yuppies in... (at least the brooklyn-accepting ones). His thought is that its gotten the range of pretty much everyone who hits the "prime" neighborhoods. I've seen DUMBO folks in as wide a range as folks I've seen move to CH and BH and BH and CG and even FG, once you subtract the income factor. And some folks who I've never seen similar in those places - the more manhattan-centric ones.

Maybe they sold 'em a bill of goods, who knows... but they managed to get 'em.

btw, if you consider "niche", what in brooklyn do you think isn't niche?

pretty much every other area of "prime" is generally described as stroller-central, and not much else. I can't say my demographic anecdotes differ much from that...

btw, if you consider "niche", what in brooklyn do you think isn't niche?

pretty much every other area of "prime" is generally described as stroller-central, and not much else. I can't say my demographic anecdotes differ much from that...

> Most of the housing stock IS high-rise condos, sorry

You are sorry but not correct.

There are 2 high-rises, and thats it...

A few of the buildings are 3-5-7 stories...

here is the data...

http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/reports/DUMBO_Designation_Report.pdf

historic district cuts out the 2 towers on the edge of the neighborhood, otherwise pretty much catches the majority of the neighborhood.

I went in 20 pages, and I found a 12/16 stories for 1 main in there... and thats it... the majority of stories were 7 or under...

I can't imagine how anyone could honestly call that "mostly high rises".

nyc10022, I don't know if they "suckered 'em too." It's hard to get data on this obviously, but most people I know like that a) haven't even heard of Dumbo, or b) have a pretty strong anti-outer borough bent. My impression is, you're going off impression as well (hence the "I think"), and though I'm sure there are several examples, this thread is really about what's going to happen from now on. I don't see the young and wealthy crowd attaching the same hipness cachet to Dumbo, which is why the niche (I think) will really be even stronger here.

I know there aren't many actual high-rise buildings, but there are LOTS of condos in them. In a tiny geographical area, that makes for a significant chunk of the homes there.

As for other Brooklyn neighborhoods, you can certainly go hood by hood and pick a favorite demographic. I think the simple fact that some are larger and more varied in terms of retail and amenities will open up the demo. Downtown and Fort Greene come to mind. I think Williamsburg is very close (people are starting to see that the hipster myth is a bit unfounded). But you're right, Brooklyn Heights is a niche as well, Red Hook, Prospect Heights to a certain extent.

This has been a really good discussion by the way!

Even if we're the only two posting anymore :)

> I think Williamsburg is very close (people are starting to see that the
> hipster myth is a bit unfounded).

I think WB is as niche as it gets. I can't think of a place that automatically gets more people to disqualify themselves in conversation... and, as it has spread out, the relative transportation has gotten fairly poor. You can be fairly far from a subway, and a lousy set of choices at that.

I don't know what people you think are starting to see that the hipster myth is unfounded... that reputation is as strong as ever.... and I'm seeing more and more people shying away.

> But you're right, Brooklyn Heights is a niche as well, Red Hook, Prospect Heights to
> a certain extent.

Yes... but, outside of Red Hook, none anywhere near as much as Williamsburg.

I can't think of any neighborhood that has turned off more New Yorkers...

"I don't know what people you think are starting to see that the hipster myth is unfounded... that reputation is as strong as ever.... and I'm seeing more and more people shying away."

With all due respect, it's pretty clear you have no idea here. The variety of people in Williamsburg is pretty impressive actually. People are drawn by the music scene (certainly one of the best in the city, if not the country), art galleries, restaurants, shopping, nightlife, parks. It's probably the one Brooklyn neighborhood that draws a sizeable Manhattanite crowd on any given day/night. That makes for considerable variety in itself, but you have singles, families, a diverse set of foreigners (there was a NYT article about this quite recently actually), not to mention established Polish, Italian, and Latino populations. Living there, I can also tell you these people also work in a wide set of industries. Will you see the occasional hipster? Sure, but they no longer define the neighborhood. Sorry.

Interestingly enough, stumbled across this after my last post:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/realestate/21livi.html

This is the other article I referred to:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/22/nyregion/22williamsburg.html

> With all due respect, it's pretty clear you have no idea here.

Do you live there?

And note I'm talking about the reputation, not the actual. If it keeps away buyers, it is real... and I'm seeing it as strong as ever amongst the manhattanites and even recent brooklynites I know..

> not to mention established Polish, Italian, and Latino populations.

Who I'm assuming are not likely buyers for the real estate in question, so not really relevant for the discussion, I'd think. Otherwise, I'd start noting the projects in Ft. Greene. ;-)

"Do you live there?"

Yes, as stated above. These are things I'm seeing and experiencing on a daily basis. As for the reputation, that's my whole point - people are becoming aware of the reality and seeing past the old myths. It's certainly not keeping buyers away - yes, volume has slowed, but, as you well know, that's due to other things, otherwise it would be a localized phenomenon.

"Who I'm assuming are not likely buyers for the real estate in question, so not really relevant for the discussion, I'd think. Otherwise, I'd start noting the projects in Ft. Greene. ;-)"

That is a fairly racist statement - these people do not live in projects (there aren't any here), and they certainly have been part of the buying crowd. Definitely relevant to the discussion.

Sorry, I missed that. I'm just wondering if you had a vested interest here.

> It's certainly not keeping buyers away - yes, volume has slowed, but, as you well know, that's due
> to other things, otherwise it would be a localized phenomenon

I guess we'll know for sure in a number of months.

"That is a fairly racist statement - these people do not live in projects (there aren't any here), and they certainly have been part of the buying crowd. Definitely relevant to the discussion. "

You misunderstood my statement. I'm talking about the Ft. Green projects and their diversity relating to DUMBO. We're not talking about diversity of neighborhood, we're talking about diversity of buyers. The presence of others groups who won't be buyers of the housing stock in question won't affect the demand for that stock. To me, the niche or not has nothing to do with the neighbors...

"Sorry, I missed that. I'm just wondering if you had a vested interest here."

It depends on what you mean by "vested interest," but it certainly doesn't discredit what I've said here. As I've said before, I bought here because I saw those things, not the other way around. You may not believe that, but it's all relative to your degree of cynicism I think.

"You misunderstood my statement. I'm talking about the Ft. Green projects and their diversity relating to DUMBO. We're not talking about diversity of neighborhood, we're talking about diversity of buyers. The presence of others groups who won't be buyers of the housing stock in question won't affect the demand for that stock. To me, the niche or not has nothing to do with the neighbors..."

I don't get this - of course niche has to do with the neighbors. You're buying there and have to live with them! They are not the only factor in buying, but they certainly are accounted for in the equation. Furthermore, it's essentially impossible to know who's a potential buyer or not. The diversity of the neighborhood is certainly correlated to the diversity of buyers.

OK, then dumbo is extremely diverse because you have folks from the projects shopping on the same block as the richies...

> They are not the only factor in buying, but they certainly are accounted for in the equation.

But could of course be a negative one.... it could restrict the pool of buyers to even smaller a niche.

"OK, then dumbo is extremely diverse because you have folks from the projects shopping on the same block as the richies..."

I know that's meant as tongue-in-cheek, but again, you're equating people of certain ethnicities (Poles, Italians, Latinos) to people living in the projects. Those are unrelated, as far as I know. People living in public housing are almost by definition not able to buy. I'm also not sure why you're calling folks from the projects (in downtown Brooklyn and Ft Greene) Dumbo residents.

"But could of course be a negative one.... it could restrict the pool of buyers to even smaller a niche."

Yup - if the people living there fit a relatively smaller demographic, it should emphasize the niche market. That's what I mean about Dumbo.

> know that's meant as tongue-in-cheek, but again, you're equating people of certain ethnicities
> Poles, Italians, Latinos) to people living in the projects.

I'm not doing that... I'm just making the parallel of folks in neighborhood who are not in the same "market". Same if this were a suburb we were talking about, with houses having one demographic, and small apartments having another demographic. I picked projects specifically as an EXTREME demographic difference to call out the point, I'm not saying the Poles/Italians/Latinos are in that demographic at all. I just picked a more extreme example for the logic point.

> Yup - if the people living there fit a relatively smaller demographic, it should emphasize the niche
> market.

You are sort of contradicting yourself here. If the people making it diverse are not IN the market... then they're not going to stop it from being a "niche market". People not in the market don't make it any more diverse a market (even if they make it more diverse a neighborhood), whether they are folks in the projects who you say can't afford, or the old polish folks who just happen to not be in the WB condo market either.

Yes, the project dwellers or the old polish folks make the neighborhood more diverse... but we're talking economics here (see the thread) and the desirability of apartments in these neighborhoods. THe diversity itself can have an effect on the desirability of the neighborhood, but the presence of those folks in of itself doesn't add or subtract to the market itself. They're simply not in that market.

> I'm also not sure why you're calling folks from the projects (in downtown Brooklyn and Ft Greene)
> Dumbo residents

The dumbo F stop is a couple hundred feet from the projects... I can't imagine how that isn't considered part of the "neighborhood".

If anything - if we're back on pricing here - I believe the existence of additional housing not in the market but that could become that - when the old polish guy dies - will actually mean even more price pressure.

For all the talk about the negatives of dumbo being land-locked, you have to figure that also means an inventory positive.... there isn't much more possibility for adding inventory in DUMBO, as there is in WB.

I can't imagine the projects getting gentrified.

"You are sort of contradicting yourself here. If the people making it diverse are not IN the market... then they're not going to stop it from being a "niche market". People not in the market don't make it any more diverse a market (even if they make it more diverse a neighborhood), whether they are folks in the projects who you say can't afford, or the old polish folks who just happen to not be in the WB condo market either."

I just don't follow - you're making plenty of assumptions here. People aren't in the same markets because they're Polish? Why do you assume they're mostly old (they're not - plenty of families)? The whole argument falls flat because of these unfounded assumptions. People living in the projects are a completely different situation because we're immediately identifying their socio-economic status. Ethnicity does no such thing.

"The dumbo F stop is a couple hundred feet from the projects... I can't imagine how that isn't considered part of the "neighborhood"."

True, but you brought up Fort Greene, which is why I was initially confused!

"People living in the projects are a completely different situation because we're immediately identifying their socio-economic status."

Another assumption... projects actually have "market-rate" tenants mixed in. There are folks with highe incomes than what you are assuming.

In terms of WB, if you want to argue that the "local" residents are in the market for those condos... we'll never end this argument. But, I'm simply looking at the makeup of the buyers in the apartments. I'm not saying Latinos and old Polish folks can't... just noting that what I've see is... they just aren't.

I will also say that some of them (noted in your ethnic descriptions living in those neighborhoods) are related to me... and, no, they won't be buying new condos this decade either. ;-)

> True, but you brought up Fort Greene, which is why I was initially confused

I believe technically the projects are in Ft. Greene, the larger mass of 'em is usually attributed there as far as I know. They just happen to cut right into the DUMBO area, not sure whose lines you want to go with (and I know vinegar hill is thrown in). I know that the defintion of WB has increased DRAMATICALLY since even 5-10 years ago.

"Another assumption... projects actually have "market-rate" tenants mixed in. There are folks with highe incomes than what you are assuming."

You're grabbing at straws here - it is NOT an (incorrect) assumption to state that public housing project residents are in a lower socio-economic class. The market-rate tenants you cite are preciously few (I've only heard of this in the Harborview projects in the West 50s), whereas there are clearly defined income limits for applying to live in these complexes.

"In terms of WB, if you want to argue that the "local" residents are in the market for those condos... we'll never end this argument. But, I'm simply looking at the makeup of the buyers in the apartments. I'm not saying Latinos and old Polish folks can't... just noting that what I've see is... they just aren't."

Indeed, this is turning into another version of that old Carnegie Hill discussion. I'll ask you though - what have you "seen"? Are you really coming to open houses or going to closings for condos in Williamsburg? It just seems like you're going off a lot of easy (and inaccurate) assumptions.

"I believe technically the projects are in Ft. Greene, the larger mass of 'em is usually attributed there as far as I know. They just happen to cut right into the DUMBO area, not sure whose lines you want to go with (and I know vinegar hill is thrown in). I know that the defintion of WB has increased DRAMATICALLY since even 5-10 years ago."

Fair enough on the projects. I've been speaking about northside WB here. WB is obviously a huge area (even prior to the "expansion"), but I think most people are speaking about the northside on this board.

> You're grabbing at straws here - it is NOT an (incorrect) assumption to state that public housing
> project residents are in a lower socio-economic class.

Not so much different than the assumption that the older residents in areas going through gentrification are also of a lower socio economic clas... the stats bear that out.

> I'll ask you though - what have you "seen"

I have gone to open houses, yes, but thats not my data... I know several developers in WB... the info comes from them.

"Not so much different than the assumption that the older residents in areas going through gentrification are also of a lower socio economic clas... the stats bear that out."

Where are the stats? Link? I'm not sure those data are out there.

"I know several developers in WB... the info comes from them."

I'll have to take you at your word on this, but it's not what I've seen. Which developers do you know?

> Where are the stats? Link? I'm not sure those data are out there.

New York Times demographic shift shift by neighborhood... well posted on this board about 2 weeks ago. You don't think WB has a considerably different economic makeup than 10-20 years ago?

> I'll have to take you at your word on this, but it's not what I've seen.
> Which developers do you know?

Can't out myself... but lets just say real estate is the family business.

BTW, I'm surprised you are surprised.... didn't the article on asians/indians in Brooklyn/LIC fairly well cover this?

"New York Times demographic shift shift by neighborhood... well posted on this board about 2 weeks ago. You don't think WB has a considerably different economic makeup than 10-20 years ago?"

Link please? Did a search - nothing came up. On the latter point, of course there's a different economic makeup, but I think you're still assuming that somehow the locals did not benefit from this in any way.

"BTW, I'm surprised you are surprised.... didn't the article on asians/indians in Brooklyn/LIC fairly well cover this?"

What's the point here? Wasn't that article about the Toren?

Still pretty high prices at places like 70 Washington and 100 Jay.

When I think DUMBO, I think the trains and multiple lanes of traffic zooming overhead so loud that you have to shout for the person next to you to hear what you are saying. As NYT would have it, Dumbo is so August.

Is Gleason's Gym still open?

i'm over 40 and bought in williamsburg a couple of years ago. most of the owners in my condo are 30+ minimum and there's tons of families. i like it here. i think the majority of the williamsburg bashers aren't residents. one thing that williamsburg will always have is easy proximity to all of manhattan. it's better than any other brooklyn neighborhood. of course, the above posts about so many people coming to williamsburg to go for music, food, bars, shops, galleries and even hair salons (even foreigners know about the salons, see any city search listing for proof of this) is correct. i love personally being able to go out to great places in my immediate area. obviously, as a married person with a kid, I'm so not a hipster, so clearly we are out here. the families are growing like crazy. in the last month alone, a charter school and a montessori school have opened - it's a changing area.

re dumbo - i didn't buy there because of the two bridges and the BQE which make the hood unbearably loud. also, i wouldn't want to live so close that crazy huge project. some of the buildings are nice though.