Value of a terrace

Half the psf for indoor space.

It is NOT part of the interior square footage. I had a very similar situation with my unit, (1000+ int sft, + 650 sft terrace) and I got about $100+ per sft in total for the place which was on the 2nd floor.

What I mean is, a similar unit with just a balcony (5 x 10) but no terrace sold for about $825/sft on the 11th floor, and mine sold for about $925/sft...so maybe a bit more actually if you calculate the discount for mine being on a lower floor.

DEF NOT half the PSF that steve states. Thats insane. So that would mean that the exact same apt as yours without a terrace would sell for $800/sft, and yours would sell for $1,200/sft...not so. that values your terrace at about $640,000 (400 x 1600, or half the psf for interior space) and that is just not the case.

Add about $100 per sft ABOVE what a similar unit is selling for without the terrace and you will get a more realistic market value for the apt.

Let me put it in dollar terms.

YOUR EXAMPLE APT (1600sft + 500sft Terrace) = $1.76M @ 1,100/sft valuing the terrace at a generous $160K
SAME APT W/OUT TERRACE ON SAME FLOOR IN SAME CONDITION (1600 sft) = 1.6M @ 1,000/sft

mybays,
Take to consideration comps with terraces in the area.

As Urbandigs said -- Terrace is NOT part of the interior square footage -- but your maintenance will be much higher, because of the terrace.

elena
(broker)

I think it depends on how nice the terrace is.

e.g. http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/300906-condo-186-west-80th-street-upper-west-side-manhattan
Interior space is low 500 ft, external space is 500+ sq ft. I suspect this sold close to asking, but the terrace is nice with pretty open views. If it went for asking, the terrace is going for at least 50% internal sq footage.

If you look at previous posts on streeteasy, terrace space is valued at anywhere from 20-50% the ppsf of the interior space. Thus, for OP's example: 1600 sq ft x $1000/sq ft + 500 sq ft terrace x $200-500/sq ft = $1.7 mill to $1.85 mill (depending on how much value terrace adds - i.e., views, condition, privacy, irrigation system, landscaping, etc).

urbandigs:

I have to respectfully disagree.

There have been a couple of threads before reagrding this specific discussion. The questions one must ask before assessing a value to a terrace are -

1.) Set back or balcony? Set back MUCH preferable.

2.) Wrap or have to walk up a floor(s) to the roof? A wrap terrace one can look out on MUCH preferable.

3.) Off the main living space, or do you have to walk through a bedroom?

4.) Privacy - Top floor of the building, or can people look down on you from inside the building on higher floors?

5.) Width and depth - usable sitting space, or just for some plants in pots?

6.) Views - obstructed or open sky/city? Lot line concerns of adjacent buildings in the area?

7.) Light - Ground floor hemmed in by other buildings and essentially in the shade all the time?

8.) What floor - Multiple microclimates exists the higher you go, lessening the chance of plant growth. Also the higher you go, extreme wind conditions can be a significant factor.

9.) Condition - nice decking, planted mature trees/plants, irrigation/lighting systems, pergola/canopied area, sitting areas, water feature, nice furniture, legal grill, adequate dedicated water/hose and electrical access, etc.?

All these (and others, I'm sure) conspire to the value of a terrace. $100 per s.f. is an absolutely ridiculous estimate, without knowing all the specifics. In general, I agree that 20% - 50% of the price of the interior square footage is a good guide. And yes, urbandigs, IF the inside value of a unit is $1,000 psf normally, and IF a top floor penthouse set back terrace of generous proportions was on offer with no lot line concerns, gorgeous light and views, somewhere on the 5th-15th floor (ideal height for growing living things), in fabulous condition with mature plantings, it would certainly bring approximately $500 psf, no problem. On the other hand, if it was a dinky balcony, that would be another thing. And I admit taht terrace buyers are a small niche - but they do exist, and those taht do exist will always pay up for a significant terrace with all the great bells and whistles I've outlined above. Your valuation of $100 psf would be laughable in that context.

digs, I don't think that's what Steve meant -- because I think he was citing the rule that I was going to quote -- to put in another way, outdoor space is often estimated at 50% of the "usual" psf of indoor space.

So an apartment with 1,000 interior square feet and a 650-square-foot terrace would be valued as though it had 1,325 interior square feet.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

The proper terrace, especially of the penthouse variety, especially in a pre-war (they just don't make them anymore), especially with the real views IS an entity on and of its own. The "aaah!" factor is not easily translated into $ but it is a major, major, sometimes defining premium. Rightfully so.

Its like a view. Could be the back of another building...or the trees of Central Park, or the Hudson River, or the glass tower 3 blocks away. It all depends.

malraux

Your post was excellent. Wish I had you next to me when I had to make a decision on how much I should pay to switch up to 33rd Floor of new development in Brooklyn with a great view of downtown Manhattan from the 10th floor with no view and same apartment layout. I landed up paying $148K more. Urbandigs had an article about "Importance of views" that I used. You guys are great, keep up good work.

Malroux - thats fine. Terraces vary just like apartment features vary. Its an art, not a science, and of course you'll need to see pictures and know all the details before putting a valuation on it. But there are NO pics here, there are no floorplans here, and no details were given.

I speak from REAL LIFE experience, as I sold my own terrace apartment. I also know what terrace buyers are willing to pay for the amenity. This should not be so hard to find out. Do a search for TERRACE apts, not balcony, Im talking 350-400sft and PLUS terrace apartments. Most are on lower floors, your PH style example is wonderful but rare. So yes, a high floor terrace, with great views, etc will be worth sig more than my $100 number.

But Im talking generalities here. What you laugh at, is what someone in real life paid, so using a real example cant be laughed at. Do your own research. Fact is, more often than not, terraces are on lower floors, and buyers do what they can to downplay it (noise, dust, security concerns) when they bid and that dynamic has to play out. I would agree though for terraces that enjoy the rarer features such as high floor, setback, unobstructed views, quiet, landscaped, etc.. you can bump up the number a bit.

Arguing over a specific # is silly, and I would rather be conservative than aggressive. Its a matter of finding the perfect buyer for a terrace, and you overprice too much, it will be counterproductive and not bring in the traffic that is so crucial to sell the place for top dollar.

front_porch - hmm, ok, but I would still disagree. Take my place as an example. Apt 2M at 245 E 93rd

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/32035-condo-245-east-93rd-street-2m-yorkville-new-york

I landscaped the terrace wonderfully and that was the only renovation I did to the apartment. Spent about $10,000 and did almost everything on my own time. I sold for 935K, about 1,000 sft (my JR4 was slightly bigger than other JR4s) that comes out to about $935/sft. Now, you must understand that this was a 2nd floor apt, facing EAST on 2nd avenue between 93rd & 94th streets. I sold about 7 months before start of 2nd ave subway construction. At the time, JR4's of same size on higher floor with renovations were going for about 775K to 850K or so; higher for renovated and higher floor (like 22A, 25J, 11A which was totally MINT renovated).

Lets compare to a fully renovated 11A that sold for 830,000, some 3 months later.

11A at 1,000 sft sold for 830/sft --> 9 floors higher, renovated kitchen and bathrooms (spent about 50,000 I think the owners told me)
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=883117

2M at 1,000sft sold for %935/sft ---> 9 floors lower, with 600+ sft terrace, but no interior renovations

So, you can see the value placed on my terrace for this sale, which is probably more because I was 9 floors lower and had no interior renovations. So, perhaps $175/sft is a better guess.

digs,

You're a pro. I'm not going to scrap with you about values in your own building!

I'm just giving a general guide as to how I would suggest valuation of exterior square footage --

Now in my brain, I would first make some numbers adjustments before doing calculation estimates -- for example, 2M, which has a "listed" square footage of 1000 square feet -- I would actually call that 900 for valuation purposes. (The floorplan I am looking at seems to sit in a 34' by 26' footprint).

So I would say that apartment at 900 plus 330 (the 660 exterior square feet times .5) is 1230 "equivalent square feet," at a price of $935K, that meant it sold for $760 per square foot. I have trouble reading the dimensions on the floorplan on 11A, but I would call that 925 square feet -- it looks like that BR is a little squarer and that LR a little shorter than 2M, but basically equivalent, so I would think of it as 900 square feet again plus 25 for the balcony.

At $760 per square foot for 925 square feet, that would dictate a selling price of $703K --

plus a floor premium of $5K per floor for each of the nine floors ($45K) plus $75K for the kitchen and bath reno gets you to $823K ... which is nearly on the nose for the selling price of $830K.

But that's just the way I would think about it. Just because my thought process is different from yours doesn't mean I'm saying yours is wrong -- that's only the case with my husband!

Respectfully,

ali r.
{downtown broker}

ha! Love it Ali! Which firm are you in? Email me privately if you dont want to publish

urbandigs:

I was answering the question as a general approach (in fact, my quote was "...$100 per s.f. is an absolutely ridiculous estimate, without knowing all the specifics..."), which is why I provided the aspects of terraces that can add/detract from their perceived value.

I'm not 'laughing at anyone' per se, but only that the valuation of $100 p.s.f. for a terrace with all the bells and whistles I described would, yes indeed, be laughable (assuming the location of the unit to be appropriate, of course).

I, too, speak from real life experience, as I currently own three Manhattan units with terraces (two in the Village, one in the West Village), and have bought/sold six other units in the past that also had terraces. As I buy for investment, terraces are a specific amenity I search out in a potential unit, and I think I have developed a reasonably good and realistic methodology for assessing a sense of their value - so I believe that I have done my research. The units I currently own with terraces are all set back PH units, and each is well over 350-400 sf as you noted (one unit has a 600 sf terrace, another 800 sf, and I live in one with a 1,550 sf terrace). I think that each of these terraces, based on the aspects I described above, would easily bring in between 35% - 50% of whatever the 'normal' interior square footage would bring, no problem.

I do again add the caveat, however, that terrace buyers are a small niche, and those that do exist will always pay up for a significant terrace with all the great bells and whistles I've outlined above - BUT (and this is important) a seller may have to wait far longer than a normal non-terraced unit before you close the deal. That comes part and parcel with owning an amenity that is costly and only appeals to a subsection of all interested buyers!

Hey digs . . .

I'm with DG Neary, but I sent you a message from my personal email because I'm such a big fan!

ali r.
{downtown broker}

thanks for the comment malreauex..And clearly, you know from experience. Im curious to know if you would disclose what you paid for your units, and when, and possibly provide comps w/out terraces in same building at that time so we can compare the premium you paid to similar units with out the terrace?

What about an actual garden? What is the per sq ft of an actual private garden space in relationship to a unit selling? I would imagine things like size, light, quality of plantings add to it.

I figure that there are less than 0.5% of units in Manhattan that have a garden, and less than 0.1% have a garden larger than 1000 sq ft.

Digs any thoughts?

not sure. Size varies but typically I would say its between 450-550 sft or so. Landscaping a terrace is such a good investment. Its cheap and you can really go nutz with creativity if you have the space. I put a hammock, shed, bbq, planters, ivy on lattice wood, etc to make it like a suburban backyard. Others I saw that were great made it look like you were in Italy or Spain. Buyers are always woooed when a terrace is landscaped real nice.

Great risk / reward investment for your dollars and you get to enjoy it too.

While you guys are at it, how do you approximate price increases for river/city/park views?

Steve would answer that anything that he doesnt own is a 50% dedcution in sales price.

Hi urbandigs:

The request is a little difficult, but I can try (sort of)!

The largest unit, the one with the 1,500+ sf terrace, was purchased 2-1/2 years ago (new build condo) and physically closed on one year ago, so I don't want to provide the comp info (due to trying to protect my family's privacy) since that's where I live.

The other two units, however, were purchased about five and six years ago. Both are 2 bed/2-1/2 bath units. In the case of the first, it is a 1,800 sf interior/600 sf exterior unit. It was in good shape inside, with a terrace that had good bones but needed a bit of work. I paid around $1.9MM at the time. A comp unit (no terrace) two floors down had just previously sold at about $1.7MM, so this works out roughly to about (assuming a little extra for my unit being a few floors higher) to about a 30% psf equivalent for the terrace area, which made sense, because it needed some work. Now I would ask just under $3MM for the same unit.

In the second case, the unit is 1,900 sf interior/800 sf exterior. But when I bought it, the interior needed work. The terrace, however, was stunning as is. I paid about $1.95MM for this unit, because though a bit larger, the interior need some work, which cost me another $150,000 when all was said and done. At the time there was no equivalent 2 bed comp, but 1 bedrooms in good condition were selling around $975 psf. Today, I would be asking just under $3.2MM for this unit.

In both cases the math worked out for the terrace sf to be around 30% of the interior psf value when I bought, but would be closer to 40% today, I think.

I hope that helps (sort of)!

malraux,
you say you bought and sold other investments....have you done a 1031 with those investments? I'm looking to sell one condo investment I have and trade up taking out a little taxable boot. Is this a difficult process? What are your experiences? I've just bought and did a cash out refi but i want to pull out all my equity not 75% or 80%. Any advice would be helpful. Thx for your time.

Dear steveF:

The deferment is like getting an interest-free loan on the tax dollars you would have owed for a cash sale. More equity is retained, and that helps you move into properties of higher value each time you perform a Starker exchange.

The contract wording is super critical - your contract to sell or purchase real estate must contain the approved IRS wording that shows an intent to perform a 1031 exchange. In addition, you only have 45 days (and they mean it! - not 46!) from closing on the property you are selling to identify up to three replacements.

I have done Starker exchanges on two past occasions. It is not a difficult process, per se, but that assumes you have a top-notch intermediary who is absolutely familiar with all the IRS fine print details required for this type of exchange. I suggest that before you actually do the process for the first time, you do a couple of 'dry-runs' with your facilitator so that you really grasp the timing and flow of the process. Otherwise, it can be a stressful 45 days for the uninitiated.

There are ways to do a 1031 exchange that don't involve the three-property rule -- I just sat through a whole continuing ed class on this -- but like malraux pointed out the IRS is very strict about what qualifies, so you do want to go with an experienced team on that.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Thanks malraux and front_porch...I see I'm talking to the right people. Malraux, one last question, do you have an intermediary you have used and are happy with that you can recommend? Thanks again for your time and knowledge.

steveF: The person I used was the full time in-house specialist for a company I was consulting for, so I'm sorry to say I can't assist in this case. I apologize.

Please see if you can help me with this one.. it's related to the Terrace issue:

I'm contracted to buy a 5 bedroom, approx 2200 sq foot duplex in an UWS (upperr '90s near Broadway) condo conversion, fully renovated to my family's specications (based on blueprints prepared by our own architect). In addition to this apartment we are contracted to buy a 200 sq. ft. penthouse unit with an 800 sq. foot terrace. We intend to use this unit (which is also to be delivered fully renovated, to our specications, including full bath with shower, outdoor natural gas connection for our grill, finished decking on the terrace, retractable awnings, water, etc...) as our family "cabana".

The apartments are located in an UWS condo conversion. While they are 2 separate units, we're contracted to buy them as a package.

Combined maintenance for the two apartments is approx $1600. Monthl real estate tax is about the same.

Could anyone give me their feeling of what such a purchase would be worth today and going forward?

Thankks!!

uws_buyer:

As this is a new condo conversion, what are the psf comps in your building for other units without a terrace finished to the same gebneral condition as the unit you're buying? That would be a big assist in determining an overall value for the unit. It would also be helpful to know what floor the terrace is on, whether it occupies the entire top floor or only part of it (or if it is not on the top floor if people can look down on you), the approximate width/depth/shape, the views/light, and if there are any posible lot line issues.

And I have to ask - a 2,200 sf duplex, but with five bedrooms?!? Sheesh. Those bedrooms must be mighty small. By the time you add in a minimum of three bathrooms to cover those five bedrooms, I'm surprised there's any room left over at all for a good sized kitchen, living room, or closets!

UWS buyer:

Are these the Avonova you're talking about? It will make a difference where the building is and of course the level of finish. But you're in great shape with plenty of space, outdoor space and a condo.You can easily ask high 4's to 5. I'd reconsider the 5th bedroom unless it's a staff room though. You don't want to make it feel like you're squeezing in 5 bedrooms

Even in this market, demand is high for family sized apts. Just be sure that your renovation is not so specific that if you decide to sell, it'll feel like it needs to be redesigned.

Malraux, Nshipley: Thanks very much for your comments. To clarify:

The psf comps in the building are low. But the sponsor sees the duplex we're buying as the "plum" apartment, deserving of top dollar (for what this building will bear.) "As-is" units are going for 1000 psf or even less. We're contracted to pay almost $1350/sq ft for the 2200 sq. ft. duplex.. which is certainly NOT a bargain... but we're getting our dream apartmeent, fully gut renovated (electric, plumbing, gas fireplace, washer dryer with gas dryer with outside exhaust, etc.), built for ourselves and our 5 kids, and hope to spend our last 20+ years there if things work out. Having said this, we'd prefer not to feel we're acutely overpaying.

A link to the duplex unit's description:

http://www.puluwai.com/cgi-bin/wshow.cgi?oc=New%20York,%20NY,%2010025,%20USA&nid=18081357600289085368

I wish I could find a link for the PH, but can't bet my hands on one.

The PH unit/ Terrace we got a better price on.. It's a tiny studio space, but with a wonderful terrace. The PH is 2 floors above the duplex (i.e., it is not physically connected, but we are wiring it to the same phone, internet and entertainment system.) It's on the 15th floor, and there are no units or terraces above our level. There are 5 other penthouse units, I believe. The view from the terrace is south-facing from the sliding door, with walls on 3 sides, south west and east, very light, very open, with a partial Hudson River view to the west. There are no lot line issues (certainly not on our side of the building.)

When we signed the contract with the sponsor prices asked in the building were a lot higher than they are today. We have a chance to get out of the deal, or renegotiate it, so are trying to understand whether - given the current market situation and future outlook - we're acutely overpaying and making a big mistake.. or whether we'll likely be fine. I think that over the long-term we have nothing to worry about, but would love some reassurance, or alternatively, a loud wake-up call from our fellow streeteasy readers.

Again -- thanks so much!!

Does anyone have any advice they can provide, please? I have the option to get out of the contract if I choose to - should I seriously consider doing so?
Again, thanks.

I just did an advanced search on Streeteasy for 4+ bedroom condos on the UWS. There are 44 of them & more than half are priced north of 5 mil; just a few are in your 3 mil range. You're getting your dream apartment, fully renovted for yourself & your kids. If you can renogiate & get a better price, $$$t, that's a no-brainer but otherwise, hey, you're looking to stay there for the next 20 years. Maybe in your golden years you can sell the big apartment & you 2 lovebirds can live in that studio in the sky. Good luck!

p.s. That may be something else to negotiate, that you can break up the duplex & divest the studio, etc. should market forces change & as your personal circumstances change.

drdrd - Thanks for your comments! We actually negotiated to be allowed to split the duplex and sell off half of it if we choose to -- and we had the electric wiring done so that this would be simple to accomplish. (The studio in the sky would be pretty 'cozy' even for a couple of lovebirds.. especially in the colder seasons... but will make an amazing guest suite!)

p.s. the studio is a separate parcel of real estate, and we'd be able to sell that off separately (or keep it separately) anytime we chose to.

uws_buyer: I didn't notice your query because it was buried in a thread about terraces.

It looks as though you're buying inthe Sabrina. It's an intriguing building with a lot of potential, but also a lot of risk. Vverain and benny2 posted some astute observations about Sabrina on a recent thread about Upper West Side conversions:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/3728-condo-conversions-uws

Malraux's advice is, as usual, astute. I think nshipley's comments are off-target; she missed your reference to the upper 90s and thought you were talking about a very different building in a much more stable location. Suggesting that you could get close to $2K/sq.ft. in the Sabrina would reflect a lot of wishful thinking (she's a broker, BTW).

The going price in Sabrina is under $1K/sq.ft. Your unit would be worth more, but the building is what it is. Check the owner-occ percentage, watch out for future assessments, and also be aware that if any part of your apartment faces east from the south tower or south from the north tower, there's a risk of view loss if the northwest corner of 97th and Broadway gets developed. Good luck!

West81st - Thanks for your comment. I think I'm paying about a 30 percent premium over the going price in the building, but I'm getting exactly what my family's looking for, fully restored to its prewar glory and updated to the 21st century. Neither apartment can be affected by a view loss.

While we won't be able to flip this place for a windfall, it's not what we're looking for... though over time I sure hope it will hold value and keep up with inflation (and beyond!).. we're putting a big chunk of our life's work into this home.

If you think I'm nuts feel free to say so. Again, thanks.

Look, the reality is that if you truly feel your time horizon is 10 years+, than there is absolutely NO WAY to predict what either the market or your financial situation will be at that time. It's impossible. Be prepared (and I think you are) to realistically anticipate that the value of your place will most likely go down and stay down for a while, perhaps by 10%-20% (or even 30% in a worst case scenario) before the market changes course. If you are honest with yourself about these issues, are still (relatively) sanguine about the situation, and you feel that this really is 'the home of your dreams,' than you should go for it - but in this realistic and informed manner.

If we're discussing this as a purely mathematical 'rent vs. buy' calculation, and which is a better purely financial play, well, that's an entirely different issue. But I have to say that finding a five bedroom place south of 96th with ample terrace space that you really would be prepared to live in for 10+ years AS A RENTAL would probably qualify as a longshot, to be true.

Malraux: Your last post should be required reading for all buyers. BTW, even north of 96th Street (Sabrina is on 97th-98th), a ten-year high-end rental is going to be hard to find. You might get something roughly comparable up the block at Ariel for aa little over $10K/month at the moment, but I doubt any owner will want to lock in negative cash flow for more than a year or two. Anyway, I don't think new construction with glass-curtain walls is what uws_buyer is looking for.

uws_buyer: You aren't crazy. You're getting the home you want for a price you can afford. You seem to understand the risks of buying into any new conversion, and the risks that apply to Sabrina in particular. Those risks are the reason you're getting so much more apartment for your money than you would in an established condo or coop in a prime location. My biggest concern about your situation is that the annoyances and costs associated with the conversion may invade your haven and degrade your experience of living there. Talk to your attorney about worst-case scenarios, and if you can still live with the downside, go for it.

West81st - malraux -- thanks for the sanity check.

I hope uws_buyer didn't rush into anything. The prices for big units at Sabrina seem to be dropping pretty fast.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/342263-condo-240-west-98th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

West 81st - We're fast approaching our finally defined Oct 15 closing date. Due to the delay in closing my atty says we can still get our deposit back and back out of the deal.. but we've put months of effort and tens of thousands of dollars into making this total 2500 sq ft interior space (duplex plus separate small studio penthouse with 800 sq ft terrace) exactly what we wanted.

Of course I'm struggling with what to do.. the family's psyched and ready to move into our dream house, and I'm looking at the spectre of a market collapse.

The Sponsor has our deposit and is not disposed to any negotiation -- he'll benefit from the improvements we've made in his apts -- so yeah, I feel like I've painted myself into a corner.

But we've got a wonderful home, and if NYC doesn't fall apart around us we should enjoy it for the next 15-20 years or longer.

This is a tough spot, no question!

1.) If your true time frame is 15(+) years.
2.) If you're prepared financially (as well as one can be) to ride out the obvious looming downturn without having to resort to your home as a credit line.
3.) If you truly feel that this your family's 'dream home,' and not for investment.

than you're not in a tough spot at all. You should definitely go forward. Nobody on these boards (and I mean nobody!) can tell you where the market will be in fifteen, or ten, or even five years from now - the simple truth is, anything can (and probably) will happen. But if the specific points I've outlined above are correct, than it's an easy decision to close, as far as I'm concerned.

I particularly feel this way in your specific case with the requirement of a pre-war 4/5 bedroom home on the UWS south of 100th and about/under $3MM with significant outdoor space in a full service building. That's a very, VERY narrow range of condos/coops that will fit your bill. Would it have been better if you had committed to buy the place today rather than a while ago when you did? Could you have gotten a better price? Maybe so. Maybe not. But that's spilt milk.

I am pretty bearish in general, but I completely agree with malraux. Given your time horizon, requirements, and love for the space, all for a price you can comfortably afford, everything else is irrelevant.

I second (third?) that emotion!

uws_buyer: I hope the closing and move go smoothly, and wish you every happiness in your new home. Please keep us updated on your progress.

Thank you all for your cmments -- exactly what my wife has been telling me as I've been obsessively fretting!

so what was the final outcome uws_buyer?

Hi All -- we closed on both our gut renovated 5 BR duplex and small PH play/office space (with very small kitchen, 1 bath -- also fully gut reno'd -- and large river view terrace) 2 stories above in October, and moved in the following day. While we haven't gotten to enjoy the outdoor space much yet due to the weather, the family's settling into our new home well, and really enjoying it. And we can't wait for springtime so we can really begin to enjoy cooking and relaxing on the large terrace.

The building is a prewar condo conversion. So in addition to us outside buyers there are lots of inside (previously renter) buyers and a whole bunch who couldn't justify buying at all. It's very much a "family" building, and my wife and I enjoy that people here actually talk to one another. (I moved here from a 44th floor PH 2BR condo on the UES (now occupied by my mom), where I barely knew / spoke to my neighbors.) We now live in a FRIENDLY building! I love that!!

The building staff is as helpful and friendly as any I've seen... proactive service by doormen, porters and (freight) elevator operators makes us very happy. (The white glove service people in my east side condo helped spin the revolving door at the entrance, but you had to twist arms to get them to lift a shopping bag for you, let alone help you empty your vehicle when you came home from the weekend.)
As I said early on, we moved here because my wife and I we were newly wed, combining two families into a blended 7 member household of older teens and college kids, and needed space for all to come and go (and to all get along in comfort and with space) for years to come.

There is no question that we paid much more for this apartment by contracting when we did than we'd pay if we were going into the transaction today. Does that irk me? As a businessman of course it does. But as a family man, who made this decision with open eyes and with the expectation that I'd spend the rest of my life enjoying this home and the neighborhood (and therefore not obsessed with resale value), I'm not only losing no sleep over the whirlwind that is the market, but am enjoying the home and neighborhood very much. We needed this apartment when we needed it -- and are very fortunate to be able to afford it.There aren't many homes like this available today, even at the price point we paid for it. We love that everything is new, yet we live in a solid prewar full service UWS building convenient to everything that's important to us.

I'm now retired at age 51, supported by my wife, and enjoying my family and the UWS lifestyle.

This place isn't for everyone. People who want to live only with "owners" would be turned off to The Sabrina, and while the neighborhood suits us perfectly, many would argue fairly that the lifestyle is diffeent from what one finds 12 or more blocks farther down Broadway. We enjoy and are comfortable with the diversity of our neighbors, and actually prefer it.
So that's the update... thanks for asking.

Our heartfelt good wishes to all who are going through tough times right now.. it's horrible out there in many ways, especially for those with the least resources. Let's hope and pray that things turn around soon, and do our best to help those less fortunate to keep their heads above water in the meantime.

That sounds great...congratulations and all the best to you and your family!

Great post UWS!

Seems like you have a good head on your shoulders. You understand that you paid more 6 months ago than you would have paid today, but you remain focused on the positive experience of your new home.

Good for you. I hope you and your family enjoy your new home for many years to come.

I do not think the rule of thumb of half always applies. I sold an apt with a huge terrace (not balcony) on the water and it certainly enhanced the value by more than half of interior sq footage price. It made the apartment unique.

I miss malraux.

uws_buyer: Warm congratulations on your new home and expanded family. Thank you very much for updating us.

Sabrina has always looked better to me in person than it does on the Internet. I think the sponsor picked the sales/marketing company from his family Rolodex, figuring that the apartments would sell themselves in a hot market. As a result, a project with much to recommend it (and some obvious issues) wound up looking shabby and cheap, whether it is or not. I'm delighted that your reality there is brighter than those dark, gloomy pictures on the Web.

BTW, I apologize for not "sanitizing" the data on that other thread. Pure laziness on my part. I won't repeat the mistake.

uws_buyer:

I think its fair to say that Sabrina has received a lot of negative press here and it was refreshing to hear a positive counterpoint. I saw a couple of apartments there that I really liked. Best of luck to you.

If you are a developer and have a certain square footage to work with, why create terraces if you can only get 50% value?