Thinking of Washington Heights. or not.

Most people here are afrainof anything above 96th. WH, west of broadway, is very nice. Its an ok subway ride to midtown, pr if you drive and work in NJ or CT but to downtown would be forever.

If you are going to look all the way up there might as well check out harlem and hamilton hights in between.

I know quite a few professional musicians who live in WH and are very happy there.

I liked the Heights area by 168th St near the hospital. You get the advantage of the 1, A, and C line converging at one stop. Before moving our search to the UES, we really liked this apartment (http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/363417-coop-70-haven-av-washington-heights-new-york). It is first floor but is gorgeous on the inside.

About 30 years ago I lived briefly on Ft. Washington south of the hospital. It was OK then so certainly OK now.

I like Fort Washington Avenue, above the GW, and areas west of that too. There are some really nice Hudson views that can be had, as the area that I'm talking about is generally at a higher elevation than other parts of Manhattan. In the area I'm talking about, the subway is limited to the A train (the 1 is further east). You should be aware that the ride is long from midtown or further south. On a great day, it can be comfortably under 30 minutes from 57th. But they have been doing track work sometimes meaning getting off at 168 on weekends, as well as running local on weekends when they don't have a C train.

Thanks for the comments. I was wondering if I should wait a little longer for prices to come down more. We are both teachers...don't make that much $$.

I think the consensus is that they aren't flying back up anytime soon. Obviously, that isn't set in stone though.

With all the work being done on the subway on the weekends in Washington Heights, it can be a hassle. West of Broadway tends to be nicer than East of Broadway. Personally, I feel like Hudson Heights feels too much like White Plains (prior to the towers of the last 5 years or so) rather than Manhattan.

As far as selecting family sized apartments, I imagine chosing Washington Heights over Harlem might factor in depending on where the parents jobs are located, whether or not you have/need a car, etc. Much of Harlem is better situated for commuting to midtown or downtown, but Washington Heights might be a better commute if one works in NJ, parts of the Bronx, Westchester/Rockland, etc.

If you work downtown or midtown, try a trial commute from the area where you are targeting- you might be fine with it, but for a lot of people it's too far/long.

Empress, don't expect prices in Washington Heights to come down much, if at all. It's one of the few neighborhoods holding its value because it was never overpriced to begin with. I own a co-op up there myself and just had it re-appraised a month ago. Its value actually went up -- not much -- only 2% over the past two years -- but it still went UP, not down.

Matt, do you really think an appraisal reflects the actual value of your apartment?

Uh ... well that's the whole point of an appraisal ...

I understand that's the point, but it's a little bit like relying on a ratings agency to tell you how risky a mortgage backed-security is (since, after all, the point of ratings agencies is to assess risk). My sense was that appraisals pretty routinely overstate the value of things, in part because of a flawed incentive structure, where the people who don't appraise high enough tend not to get called back for more work (much as a ratings agency that provided lower ratings on an MBS wouldn't have gotten much repeat business).

NYCMatt, Are you aware of the criteria used by your appraiser? Tradionally, Appraisers have used historical data of comparables- which is a lagging indicator. I suspect that would be the case in this instance as well since I am seeing enough properties with signficant price cuts in the last month or two to argue against your point.

Some Appraisers have been modifying their process by taking current trends into account for the valuation process. As to JohnDoe's point about Mortgage Backed Securities (or for that matter CDO's), he is correct. The valuations for a long time were not being appraised on the current market value and when the correction came- in came the crash.

Whether NYCMatt is accurate or not about Washington Heights never being overpriced to begin with- is yet to be determined. I do believe that while the neighborhod cost far less than the rest of Manhattan (other than Inwood), that did not mean it wasn't overpriced. I don't remember the percentage increases year over year in Washington Heights, but I remember there was a few years in recent memory where prices increased astronomically each year. Perhaps some or even much of it was justified (I have no idea- just putting this out as a possibility) as Washington Heights changed over the years- but before buying an apartment in the neighborhood this should be weighed in the decision.

I've rented in WH for nearly six years and I am overjoyed to report that the weekend shuttle service due to track work on the A is finally over. That was my biggest complaint whenever friends asked how I like living in WH.

I've lived all over Manhattan with a quick stop in Dumbo and as part of a couple looking to settle down, WH is perfect for us. As much as I love the rush and buzz of Manhattan, I love coming home to the quiet small-townish feel of our section of WH and watching the seasons change during our walks along the Hudson or across the GWB. My husband teaches in the S Bronx and I write from home, so the commute is perfect. (I used to work for a non-profit in Soho and I will be honest, I detested the 45-minute commute. I would never consider the neighborhood if I worked downtown or in Brooklyn.)

My husband and I are also looking to buy and Washington Heights west of Fort Washington and north of 181 is our target area. There are plenty of lovely co-ops between Broadway and Ft Wash. I think most of the board is down on WH because the active posters are looking to spend more money than the WH crowd and many of the posters are unfamiliar with the truly gorgeous art deco gems, spacious interiors, and friendly neighbors.

That said, I'm all for waiting. Remember that owners have a vested interest in making you think that prices are/will not drop. WH went up with the bubble just like every other nabe and there is plenty of air still to be let out. But definitely come up and check out some open houses on Cabrini, Pinehurst, Haven, Chittenden - or even Bennett which isn't in my zone, but you may like the slightly lower prices.

Also, since you mentioned a family, you should try to stay above 181st, the current zoning will put you in the better elementary school (I don't recall the number at the moment). And check out the Manhattan Times to get familiar with neighborhood issues.

"NYCMatt, Are you aware of the criteria used by your appraiser?"

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am. It includes recent sales in the surrounding blocks, as well as recent sales within my own building.

Recent sales is still a lagging indicator. How long does it take from the time the deal goes from contract to closed- chances are at least a couple of months- probably longer depending on the coop boards. Obviously the economy deteriorated signficantly during that time. I honestly hope your appraiser was accurate, but obviously given the environment you can understand my doubts. Also even in the worse economic periods- there are always sections of an area that defy the trends (at least to some degree or another).

I do remember that Washington Heights had the highest percentage price increases for a few years in a row throughout all of Manhattan- I think it was Curbed.com or The Real Deal (or perhaps both- I am too lazy to look for it) that reported this. This is the reason for my concern and feel anyone looking for advice on buying in the neighborhood should be aware of this fact.

Three units sold in my building over the past three months. One offer was made in February -- two in April. My board is lightning-fast with processing applications -- I know since I'm on the board.

The economy may not be great, but it hasn't changed ALL that much in the past 30 days.

I have been renting in the Heights for three years now. I'm at 187th and Fort Washington, so right in the heart of the "Hudson Heights" section. I have been looking to buy an apartment ever since moving there, but the prices were very inflated when first arriving in 2006. So while a previous poster states that prices in the heights are not dropping much since the area wasn't inflated, I must respectfully disagree. In 2006, a typical 1 bedroom in Castle Village (arguably the best co-op in the nabe) had asking prices between $475 and $525. While there are still a few units asking prices near that, there are now numerous units asking below $400! One recent listing just came up the other day at $375. Another apartment I looked at a long time ago on 181st, when it was asking $345, is still on the market but now for $240. While these hundred-thousand-dollar price drops are small compared to the half-million-dollar drops seen in certain listings downtown, these are big 30-35% reductions. In my opinion these reductions show that the heights was just as inflated as anywhere else, and prices still have farther to fall. I walked passed a corcoran agent the other day standing outside a local co-op on an open house day. I heard him say into his phone..."Can you believe this listing is still active?" Apparently the inventory in the heights is not moving and prices will have to dip further to make it move. Personally, I may now choose to move downtown as places become more affordable!

LOL. I remember when HH apts in Castle Village and the Tudor-y buildings were really cheap. 50k for a 1-bed, and 200k for a 3-bed and this was in the late 90s when things had already started to change.

Circa 1998 - http://www.nytimes.com/1998/11/08/realestate/if-you-re-thinking-living-hudson-heights-high-above-hudson-crowd-ops.html?scp=1&sq=hudson%20heights%20%20%20%20musician&st=cse

I know it won't happen, but from a first-time buyer's perspective, I would love to see those prices come back!

I agree, for the most part, with lookingforhome. We moved to 157th St about two years ago and we're happy with our decision. Our place required a full reno so we payed below market but put over 100K but we have exactly the apartment we want. Something we never could have afforded downtown. We sensed a house bust but decided, on balance, we were getting a deal and don't regret our decision. We can comfoprtably raise our two children in this space and afford private school. We are not zoned for the school disctrict she is referring to. Which is very good.

Whether someone should move to the area is such a personal decision. Now that I am married with kids it was the perfect choice for me. The 1 is at the end of our block so we're able to get downtown with ease but do miss having every manner of store and food establishment right outside. Safety hasn't been an issue. Noise isn't but we also have citi quiet windows.

Good luck with your decision. Take you time and as advised by other, no need to rush. Things aren't flying off the shelf.

I'd take Brooklyn over WH aotbe. WH has come a long way, but still some fairly unsafe parts as you get away from the subway. Fairly dirty no matter where you go (dogsh*t central). Parking wars. Still some very loud music at night (and not in a cool way). Commute is quick, but its still a commute, especially when the stuff don't run right on weekends.

Some friends love it, but they don't have kids. I think BK is more more parent-friendly. Hell, the schools alone...

Will depend big time on where you have to get to in Manhattan, but overall, I'd give the nod to Brooklyn.

I have some friends who own and live in WH, and many of them love it there (although they all bought at the peak of the market). Indidentally, to follow the discussion in another thread, most of my friends in WH seem to be having pest problems in their bldgs... Not sure if this problem is typical in WH or not, though.

I personally find the train ride to WH horribly time consuming and, sometimes, potentially unsafe. Also, some of the safety concerns noted earlier in this thread might be prevalent in many areas of WH for many people--but I guess it all depends on where you are. I also don't really like it when your neighbors sit around outside their bldgs. and play music... I know some people like that, but I don't...

So, in those price ranges, I, too, may choose some areas in B'lyn or even Queens for its proximity to Midtown/Lower Manhattan, hip-ness, and general climate...

WH/Audubon Terr has some amazing buildings. The Grinnell is fabulous. I was there a few times for OHs. The downside is that there are income limitations (which begs the question of who is buying an 800k apt on 200k income). The upside is that the taxes on the Grinnell will remain low forever.

I whole-heartedly agree with ynotie re pricing. I've seen a few listings change brokers, but what they need to do is lower prices.

Changing subjects, I think safety truly depends on the train. I have heard horror stories about the 1, but I live off of the A and have taken it at all hours without a problem (except a very smelly but harmless homeless guy). Eavesdropping on the Broadway musicians and actors seated around me makes the ride seem a lot faster if I miss the last express train. Also, people don't sit outside in the part of Washington Heights where I live. It all depends on your micro-neighborhood.

I do wonder if there will be a pull-back in gentrification. When we first moved into our building, it was about 75% Spanish-speaking. I bet it is down to 30% now with a huge influx of annoying bohos like myself. But with falling rents, I wonder if the students and tech folks who have flooded the building will head back downtown.

I would highly recommend also Inwood west of Broadway. There are a number a beautiful co-ops, surrounded by a number of parks and gardens. Payson Avenue is fantastic. Also Park Terrase Gardens and some buildings on Indian Road, Seaman Avenue and others. And unlike WH there is also an express bus to East side - just 15-20 minutes to mid 70's.

We were looking there for a while - and have happy friends up there -- and it should be noted that there's great green space the further up you get (we were looking in Hudson Heights [W. 181st to W. 190th, west of Ft. Washington). Inwood Park is nice (although kinda crowded and the dogsh*t thing can be a problem, I'm told), the Cloister, the bike path that runs from Inwood to Battery Park City (around all of Manhattan, in fact).

And prices are coming down and, in my opinion, will fall further. Boutique realtors (Simone Song, Stein-Perry) have a lot of influence on pricing in Hudson Heights, and even they are bringing apartments to market at significantly lower asks than a year ago. And still, stuff is just sitting there ... HH does have a great primary school, too. Check indieschools.org. It's right in the middle of the nabe on Cabrini just above W. 187th.

I think prices in HH shot up more than could be justified. Maybe not Washington Heights as a whole, but certainly that area. It got popular. If you go to Inwood, there are BIG, nice places for less than $400K.

But, yeah, major drawback for us was the subway. Better have some time on your hands and love the A. None of our friends up there have a regular commute.

I've def. seen a demographic shift by us. Still a strong dominican influence but an enormous decline in african americans. My sense, at least in our building, is the idea is to realize the profit and buy elsewhere for cheap. Most of the people in my building purchased their apartments for virtually nothing and now stand to make quite a bit even with a property drop. We now, like lookingforhome, have more asians/white than hispanic or african american. Will be interesting over the next few years if the area can pull in more services like coffee shops and higher end food establishments.

I wouldn't worry so much why WH is not discussed much in streeteasy. Maybe if streeteasy had a Spanish language interface you'd see more posts about the neighborhood. Who knows. Here's a directory from nyc.gov and Community Board 12's section on that website that lists all the agencies and services in that district. The ones I am always interested in are where the homeless shelters are, where the police and fire stations are located, if there is a hospital nearby, where the library and post offices are since I use them a lot.

I lived for years by a ConEdison substation and around the corner from a fire house, and the noise that came from both places was astounding. Of course the fire engine has to turn on its siren as it leaves the house, but I learned the hard way that I could choose to not live by one in my next apartment. Same with living in an area with a substation which requires a lot of maintenance including jackhammering the street in the middle of the night dozens of times a year. This was in Chelsea. Anyway hope this helps and good luck with your search --

http://www.nyc.gov/html/mancb12/downloads/pdf/directory_2008.pdf

"But, yeah, major drawback for us was the subway. Better have some time on your hands and love the A. None of our friends up there have a regular commute."

You could say that about any neighborhood, and any train. Upper East Side: "Better have some time on your hands and love the 6." Carroll Gardens: "Better have some time on your hands and love the F." Etc.

The fact of the matter is, I've lived in Brooklyn Heights, and I've lived in Washington Heights, and hands-down the more convenient commute was Washington Heights. When the A is running properly, the ride from 181st Street to Midtown takes less than 15 minutes. Even when it's running local, the ride is lengthened by only about 10 more minutes. Compared to Brooklyn Heights -- only one stop into Brooklyn, mind you -- the commute was a minimum of 30 minutes. And don't kid yourself -- yes, the A train construction with shuttle busses is annoying on the weekends, but Brooklyn has its own basket of subway horrors on the weekends, too.

Don't agree with the above post. Being dependent on just one subway line is not something one can say about EVERY neighborhood. When I lived in FiDi I could take the 1,9,N,W,R,2, or 3 easily, and with not too much trouble the ACE. When I was in HK I could take the NRW to work or two short bus trips. Now that I am in Harlem, I can take the 2/3 and transfer to the NRW or take the 456 to work, and coming home two of the limited buses up 5th take about the same amount of time.

Hell, once when the subway stopped working on all lines because of rain, I took the metro north from 125th and walked from GC.

Clearly, I have lived in places with more than one option.

Oh, and if I really wanted the 456 or JMZ from Fidi, forgot about that.

You could say that about any neighborhood, and any train. Upper East Side: "Better have some time on your hands and love the 6."

Or, more accurately, the 4 if you want to parallel express. And the A can be quick during rush hour, but the 45 will still be quicker... more importantly.

Weekends, forget about it.

Being stuck on the local from the UES isn't great, but being local coming from 170 is suicide-inducing.

And at least $15 will get you there in a cab...

> Compared to Brooklyn Heights -- only one stop into Brooklyn, mind you -- the commute was a minimum
> of 30 minutes.

Only if you rig the comparison.

A train from Cadman - same A train you love in WH - is a 12 minute ride to 34, and 14 to 42. I actually timed it a bit ago. Thats definitely faster than the WH trip.

Or, try the 2,3. Don't know exactly, but I know its under 20.

"Being dependent on just one subway line is not something one can say about EVERY neighborhood."

Washington Heights has both the A/C and the 1 train.

"A train from Cadman - same A train you love in WH - is a 12 minute ride to 34, and 14 to 42. I actually timed it a bit ago. Thats definitely faster than the WH trip."

Well, my Midtown stop was 59th Street, which takes 12 minutes from 175th Street on the A train. A train from Cadman to 59th Street took at minimum 20 minutes.

jason, I agree with you. Inwood is better located than Washington Heights, because of two trains A and 1,an express bus BXM 1(just 15 minutes to Upper East side) and Metro North just 5-10 minutes away(depends what part of Inwood you are located).

Um ... both the A and the 1 run through Washington Heights, too. Plus, starting at 168th Street, you have the C.

Another cool thing about Inwood is you are pretty much guaranteed your seat if you get on the A on 207th Street. During the morning rush, the train is usually standing room at 190th and packed by 168th/145th.

> Well, my Midtown stop was 59th Street, which takes 12 minutes from 175th Street on the A train. A
> train from Cadman to 59th Street took at minimum 20 minutes.

Which all still VERY much contradicts your "the commute was a minimum of 30 minutes", no?

"Um ... both the A and the 1 run through Washington Heights, too. Plus, starting at 168th Street, you have the C. "

BH has A (and C) and 2 and 3 (express!) and a few others... NR, right? Hell, borough hall gets you half the world...

NYCMatt, if your goal is to get to the UWS, sure, Washington Heights might have the subway advantage over Brooklyn Heights, depending on how the trains are running that day. Anywhere else? No. The big advantage BH has over WH is options (and better access to all parts of lower Manhattan and the UES).

I agree that all one-line dependent neighbhorhoods have a similar problem, which is why the advice to the OP is 'mind your commute.'

But c'mon, you have to really game the comparison to say that WH is more convenient - in the abstract - than BH.

I work in FiDi. Getting to WH every day would royally suck. I wouldn't make the same argument if I worked at Columbia.

reddog2669, I agree about the guaranteed seat. But the biggest difference is the express BXM 1 bus. From Washington Height it is going to take you forever to go to the East Side. And also the Metro North.
Inwood is such a gem(hidden for now:)

> But c'mon, you have to really game the comparison to say that WH is more convenient - in the
> abstract - than BH.

Including fudging the numbers... ;-)

Yeah, a harlemite hear must agree. BH is certainly more convenient to more parts of Manhattan than WH. Hell, I think I might be able to get to BK faster from my house on 4/5 than I could get to 187th and Broadway.

I don't recommend moving to washington heights your really better off moving further up in inwood because the heights is really bad except for a few spots you may as well be living in downtown beirut.

Blau_Punkt

Obviously, there are quite a few posts from folks who have never even been to Washington Heights.

My final word is that with no rush to buy, why not rent in the area for a bit? My husband and I moved uptown for more space - I never expected to stay and had to be dragged on to the subway to even come see the apartment. However, I fell in love with the neighborhood and now can't imagine leaving.

I have been to washington heights and I know what I am talking about. The area is not worth living in, again there are a few nice spots closer to the Hudson but overall the place should be avoided. Maybe in another 20 years or so it may be livable but not now.

Just say no to washington heights

Blau_Punkt

I lived in Washington Heights for 5 years (by the 181st A stop) , then moved to Brooklyn Heights last year. So I know both areas quite well.

Brooklyn Heights has been a godsend transportation-wise. My commute to midtown (Grand Central) is shorter than WH was. And anywhere south of Midtown is a gazillion times better. And having access to the 2, 3, 4, 5, F, R, W, A, C kicks the crap out of the terrible A line. WH is only better for the Upper West Side.

Inaccessibility was my main problem with WH. Otherwise I loved it and I miss it. It's a beautiful neighborhood, especially around Fort Tryon Park and on the west side. It's definitely one of Manhattan's hidden gems. Anywhere west of Broadway is fine, but "Hudson Heights" north of 181st and south of the park is the nicest part. I miss the great soothing walks I used to take

Food is another problem: bad groceries and underwhelming restaurants outside Dominican cuisine. I did most of my grocery shopping at Whole Foods in Columbus Circle, which is convenient. But if you can handle this and the transportation issues it's a great neighborhood to consider.

Well I think it is crazy for anyone to move to washington heights. If you are going to move that far up why not go a little further and live outside of the war zone. Sorry but that's just the way it is.

Blau_Punkt

Blau_Punkt, FYI, Downtown Beirut is a ritzy, high-end, upscale area. And safer than any New York neighborhood. I should know, I lived there for nine years. It's home to numerous high-end boutiques (Cartier, Dolce & Gabbana, Fendi etc.) and some of the world's nicest hotels, including a Four Seasons. And it has some of the highest real estate prices in the world.

From the FBI crime stats available at http://topics.nytimes.com/top/classifieds/realestate/locations/newyork/newyorkcity/manhattan/index.html

Crime [zip code 10039 - Washington heights]
Total crime risk 47
Personal crime risk 74
Murder risk 90
Rape risk 48
Assault risk 78
Property crime risk 37
Burglary risk 32
Larceny risk 52
Motor vehicie theft risk 19

[10040 - Washington Hieghts]
Crime
Total crime risk 45
Personal crime risk 92
Murder risk 143
Rape risk 81
Assault risk 25
Property crime risk 19
Burglary risk 8
Larceny risk 16
Motor vehicie theft risk 23

Now compare that to meatpacking - 10011
Crime
Total crime risk 141
Personal crime risk 218
Murder risk 140
Rape risk 85
Assault risk 221
Property crime risk 118
Burglary risk 97
Larceny risk 98
Motor vehicie theft risk 111

Lincoln Square - 10023
Crime
Total crime risk 134
Personal crime risk 226
Murder risk 121
Rape risk 88
Assault risk 149
Property crime risk 95
Burglary risk 49
Larceny risk 84
Motor vehicie theft risk 109

Tribeca - 10007
Crime
Total crime risk 117
Personal crime risk 162
Murder risk 151
Rape risk 43
Assault risk 207
Property crime risk 113
Burglary risk 47
Larceny risk 197
Motor vehicie theft risk 78

The "good" part off Washington heights UNAMBIGUOUSLY has a much lower crime rate than other, more expensive areas. Blua-punkt is a complete moron.

100= U.S. average

Jason10006 said The "good" part off Washington heights UNAMBIGUOUSLY has a much lower crime rate than other, more expensive areas. Blua-punkt is a complete moron.

No Jason10006 you are a moron. Stats only go so far they don't always tell the real story. You are just talking out of your ass. Piss off.

Blau_Punkt. you're quite funny. not sure why you hate a neighborhood? isn't just not living in it enough? i don't like a large part of the US but i really can't imagine hitting message boards to make extreme remarks. why bother? calling washington heights a war zone makes me think you're as current as 1968 when the LES, EV, Times Square, Hells Kitchen, and most of Brooklyn were war zones. are you really so provincial that a mixed neighborhood scares you?

Mixed neighborhood, that doesn't bother me in the least. I'm all for diversity. However I have been in my neighborhood for over 30 years and looking south I can see what the heights are like. Again some nice spots but overall it is horrible. The quality of life is horrendous especially during the summer. Believe what you like but I feel sorry for anyone who moves to that place.

And beyond that I say "I am the Blau_Punkt and have spoken."

you're a not funny or clever version of The What from Brownstoner.
can you get more amusing and then return?

"Food is another problem: bad groceries and underwhelming restaurants outside Dominican cuisine."

I hear you on that. But FreshDirect was a godsend. :)

"No Jason10006 you are a moron. Stats only go so far they don't always tell the real story. You are just talking out of your ass. Piss off."

What part of you are much less likely to to murdered, robbed, raped, stolen from or assualted in 10039 compared to Meatpacking or Tribeca is left out of my story? What is the rest of the story? You are safer in 10039 than in 10007. Period. The crime stats are clear and unambiguous. All you have is bile. If you want to give us some evidence that the areas west of Broadway in WH are "war zones" please do. Otherwise, you are making a fool of yourself.

I am Blau_Punkt.

I have seen alot in my years here.

That should be enough.

Blau_Punkt has spoken.

Thankyou for your time.

This has been Blau_Punkt.

Blau_Punkt. You may have seen a lot but have you ever noticed that a lot is two words, my friend? Thank you for your time.

Blau_Punkt, are you the famous copy editor known as Blue Point among people in the publishing?

If you can't afford a good apt elsewhere, why not WH?

However, it's really not pretty, the streets are full of trash, and it is noisy. If you don't really have to live there, I am not sure why you would... But, again, many of the apartments are big there, and if you can only afford such apartments in WH, I would understand.

With this said, I also hear about MASSIVE infestations in those older apt bldgs. in WH. So, you might want to consider that...

"think now might be a good time to buy an apartment we can grow into. It seems like Washington Heights has good deals for large spaces. However it's not real popular on this website. Why?"

it's a good time to wait, 2011/2 might be a good time to buy (once rates are much higher so that prices go down to a point in which buying makes more sense than renting). save as much as possible meanwhile. that was my original plan back in the day. now i don't even plan to buy. lol.

that said, get in a car and drive around. you'll see first the retail. every sidewalk is a succession of "beauty saloons", 99 cent stores, bodegas (good luck finding anything fresh there), laundry mats and "income tax help" type of store. if it looks ugly during the day, take a car again and drive around through the night. take a look at the buildings. they are old, badly maintained and my guess is that only priced out new comers are paying market rates. then the music. plenty of high volume reggaeton, day and night. i'd pass.

Its nice west of broadway.

Older buidlings "you hear" have infestation...in WH. But not in hells kitchen or murray hill or the village? oh but, they have them even in Lenox Hill...i hear.

empress, right now you are being literally paid to wait (as long as you can be patient...). do not buy at all while rents keep on falling, so it pays for you to know both markets (the for rent and for sale).

keep on looking and getting info so that you don't make mistakes (easy to avoid ones at least) when you take the plunge. going to open houses for fun doesn't hurt, to get to know what kind of things are important to you.

nyc212: "it's really not pretty, the streets are full of trash, and it is noisy."

Depends on the part of the neighborhood. You can say that about ANY Manhattan neighborhood, especially the Upper East Side and TriBeCa.

West of Broadway overall is quite nice -- clean, quiet, with beautiful architecture. East of Broadway, I'll concede, in many cases, is definitely the wrong side of the tracks.

Amdin, interesting observations. I would say they are somewhat accurate for the hight 170s/180s in the noise and low end shops but not so much in lower washington heights. What you describe sounds sort of like NYC in the seventies. I get your basic point but that description above is way, way extreme. As far as infestation I have not heard of that.

Just as a comparision we moved from Bank St. because of very disgusting rent controlled first floor tenants caused an infestation problem for the entire building. Most NYers/city dewllers know it's not an area that is prone as much as the shit luck of having a tenant/owner who is unclean and you're off.

On balance, I still think Washington Heights is not a bad area. We rented in the area before buying and ended up buying because we saw no reason to go back downtown. We def. miss certain things but the space, for us, can't be beat.

"What you describe sounds sort of like NYC in the seventies"

i was born in the late seventies, so i'll take your word for it. it definitely looks like stuck in time, stuck in general. same thing with the area around broadway between 125th and 150ths.

there's a little bit of life coming from the 145th corridor but it's just a few nicer blocks. besides from that it really looks like populated by old people in poverty that got stuck there and few young people that went there cause they were priced out. there's few nice blocks in convent though, but it's just not enough to sustain an improvement in retail. just my view.

Again, people need to justify their investments and we won't come up w/ a consensus here.

For me, at least, if anyone starts saying WH is pretty, nice, and CLEAN, I know not to pay attention to him/her anymore...

Admin, you make some good points.

I think we were all hoping that the crazy housing prices would hasten the gentrification process Uptown. While it still will likely happen, it doesn't look like WaHi will become the new Chelsea anytime soon.

As far as retail options, I'll admit the change is slow. Most of the "upscale" people who've moved to WaHi seem to still spend most of their money downtown (in my building alone, my super has commented that on trash day, he's never seen so many shopping bags from Bloomie's, Bergdorf's, Barney's, Banana Republic, etc. as he has over the past two years).

It'll take a while. But as more buildings go co-op, and more "upscale" people move in, the customer base for the crappy 99-cent stores (where interestingly enough, nothing is ever just 99 cents) will gradually erode, and those stores will give way to better establishments.

nyc212 -- since you've apparently never actually been to Washington Heights, this might help enlighten you: http://www.brorson.com/neighborhood/index.html

Admin, you are describing west Harlem and Hamilton heights, NOT Washington heights, which is all - ALL above 155th.

oops.

Again, people need to justify their investments and we won't come up w/ a consensus here.

Well, everyone else here and in the city of New York has a consensus that Washington Heights is NORTH of 155th. So I don't understand admin's response.

Washington Heights west of Broadway is clean relative to say, Hells Kitchen or the LES, which are much higher rent areas. TOP wanted cheap rent. Its not as clean as BPC or Lenox Hill, but those is more expensive still.

So no one says WH as a whole is "clean" relative to NYC as a whole. But west of Broadway it is in fact as "clean" as more some of the more expensive places lower down Manhattan. If you don't want to live in Astoria or Brooklyn, or think Inwood is too far, you can look in WH. But I don't think anyone here has said "its just like 75th and Columbus!"

nyc121, I don't think it's a matter of justifying investments. real estate is interesting. nyc is interesting. this is an anon blog. the banter/peoples perceptions is what's interesting. i think we all know we'll never change the other persons mind.

admin, i was born in the seventies too. i grew up in manhattan in an area that is now very trendy but was sketchy well into the early 90s. what you describe reminds me of early childhood memories of cracked out trannies or pimps coming at the family. nyc just isn't like that anymore. maybe because i grew up here washington heights doesn't strike me as any nosier or dirtier than a lot of the "cooler" parts of the city which i have lived in. i tend to agree with jason. WH is like the east village. some parts are great, others are not so great.

jason10006: "So no one says WH as a whole is "clean" relative to NYC as a whole. "

Actually, *I* says.

You've apparently never been up here --- or lived up here -- so I'm afraid your opinion on this topic is irrelevant.

Unless you work Uptown/Bronx/Westchester/North Jersey, Brooklyn or Queens will provide you much more for you buck. There is that fear of leaving the "island" and that is why people will move to Inwood and travel over an hour to Downtown jobs.

ab, I've taken the "1" train (all local, all the time) from 181st Street to Chambers Street. NEVER takes longer than 30 minutes. Perhaps it would take an hour to get to downtown NEWARK, but not downtown Manhattan.

I take the 4/5 from Fulton to Grand Central and it takes 25 min. My commute in Manhattan is less than 1/2 the mileage but takes the same time. Let's not take those middle of the night scenarios into play, but consider a typical rush hour situation. I can always say that it takes me only 35 min to get my job, but that happens once every few months.

I regularly commuted from 181st Street to Chambers Street on the "1" train -- during rush hour both ways -- and it never took longer than 30 minutes.

Happy now?

All of the folks who are convinced that WH is a dirty, infested hellhole should simply stay away.

I will happily enjoy not waiting for a table at the sushi joint, not worrying about the Balthazar bread running out at Frank's Market, volunteering with my neighbors at our CSA, mixing with all types of folks and loving my huge and inexpensive pre-war apt in my favorite corner of NYC.

If you need a Banana Republic to make a neighborhood worth it for you, you are not my kind of neighbor.

"If you need a Banana Republic to make a neighborhood worth it for you, you are not my kind of neighbor."

What's wrong with wanting a Banana Republic in WaHi, if only to save an hour-long round trip on the subway?

lookingforhome, i enjoyed your pep rally for your neighborhood.

"Again, people need to justify their investments and we won't come up w/ a consensus here."

there's some of that. but also each has it own preferences, tastes, risk aversions. the last one can change when you have kids (for the female at least). people tend to put up with a lot when they are students or just graduated, but not so much later on. so it pays to anticipate that with a kid one might not want to put up with unconventional things (pets, dirt, noise, insecurity, crappy retail only and the like).

pets should be pests.

Here's another point if you are ready to start a family. The school (PS 187) while the best in the neighborhood, is lacking compared to the rest of the schools in the state. Do a search on SchoolDigger.com. They take the scores, not the parent rating and let you know where the school stands. I've seen schools that have been placed on "probation" due to failing scores and the parents were raving about how good those schools are.

Figure out if you will save enough money in your purchase to send your child to a private school. The other choice is to move prior to your child starting school.

NYCMatt, I'm a New Yorker who likes more independent stores and fewer mall-ifying shops like Banana Republic (my friends call it Garanimals for Adults). You might as well ask for an Outback Steakhouse and an Olive Garden. If I wanted to live in a mall, I'd move to NJ.
I shop local, support small businesses and buy handmade/re-purposed/re-cycled whenever possible.

Admin, I have no investment to uptalk - WH (like most NYC) is overpriced and I rent, for now.

lookingforhome, I'm a New Yorker who also prefers more independent stores and doesn't like the "mall" atmosphere that has overtaken many neighborhoods like SoHo.

However, I also place a premium on quality, and let's face it, most of the stores in WaHi sell crap. And as far as clothing stores -- if you're white and professional, forget it. If you're a street thug, however, you'll have no problem finding t-shirts with vulgar phrases and sequined hoodies.

For the record, I don't do Olive Garden, Outback, or any other "chain" restaurants.

NYCMatt, seriously? Really? Only white people are professional and shop at BR? You really want to commit to that statement?

Your hubris and assumptions are ridiculous. Don't assume you know anyone's color on the internet.

Lookingforhome, do you understand logic and argument?

I didn't say "only white people are professional and shop at BR". I said, if you are white and professional, there are NO CLOTHING STORES for you (at least for work attire) in Washington Heights.

Please prove me wrong on this -- I'd really like to find a place to shop when I'm there.

"NYCMatt, seriously? Really? Only white people are professional and shop at BR? You really want to commit to that statement?

Your hubris and assumptions are ridiculous. Don't assume you know anyone's color on the internet."

lol, this should have been in a seinfeld episode. so funny. can you people please at least read each other posts before going into a rant? even if it's supposed to be in the name of equality and fairness, these attacks are wrong when are totally uncalled for. lookingforhome, just the fact that he used AND implies that there are whites that are not professional.

admin. i don't think it's a pep rally for the neighborhood. if i go start a thread that is very critical of the financial district or the east village/LES or williamsburg it would get similar attention and reactions. what i think you're missing is that it is the residents of washington heights, like myself, who give balanced views on the area. if you read i think i did a fairly extenive rundown of the negatives of living uptown, in addition to the positives. but i could also do that for chelsea and the west village which are the two other places i have owned in. i see picking washington heights as a "what doy uo want for your money" decision. if you're very wealthy you don't have to weight things as much than if you're middle to upper middle class. by every measure we do very well but in nyc we would be getting kille i f we tried to buy 1500 sq ft downtown. uptown we have a beautiful place and send our kids to private school and are still in the city and have no money anxiety. that would not be the case if we bought downtown. i suspect we'd be praying for no one to lose their job or get a bad bonus or so on. it's far easier to take some joking and criticism of a neightborhood than to worry that you could go under.

I am black and agree that there are few clothing stores for white-collar professionals above 110th...but it was silly to ad "white people", as though black people and latinos and asians do not dress like "professionals." In other words, if you are BLACK and professional, LATINO and professional, ASIAN and professional, South Asian and professional, Native American and Professional, or Vulcan and professional, there are few clothing options.

Why mention white people at all? Especially when I see white people in Harlem who wear ghastly jean half-shorts, black shoes, wife beaters and fuchsia shirts.

NYCMatt, there is no way that a *local* 1 train from 181 to Chambers took only 30 minutes.

I have taken the 1 train from Christopher to 116th many times, and it takes ~25 minutes.

According to hopstop.com the trip from 181st to Chambers takes ~50 minutes:
http://www.hopstop.com?action=route&route_id=2e7809dfd82ezqaa

If you switch to the express on 96th, then it may take 5-10 minutes less.

As Jason said, there was no reason to write "WHITE and professional" ANY professional would have a difficult time purchasing clothing in the Heights. But who cares? As Matt has posted many many times, it takes about 15 minutes to get on a train and find your pick of chain clothing stores.

I left the East Village when the number of Gaps started to outnumber the interesting boutiques. I would hate for the same thing to happen to WH. Low retail rents allow for creativity. Sure, right now the retail in the nabe is dominated by shops for teenagers but if the gentrification continues (questionable in these economic times), the creative class will open up interesting stores before the march of NYCMatt's beloved boring mass merchandisers figure out that there are folks with money up here.

Pirot- I live in Inwood and I have timed the trip from 215th to the Wall Street Stop on the 2 (so obviously I changed at 96th). I made the trip in 45 minutes. I did not include the wait time at 215 but did include it at 96th (I got lucky and the train came rather quickly). I would not commute that distance everyday (when you add on getting to and from the subway, wait times etc it is too long for me) but to say the 30 mins from 181 to Chambers is impossible is not correct.

no one said that 30 min is impossible. just very rare unless you get to work before 8 am and leave after 7 pm.

Interesting how much discussion on commute time in relation to uptown. The worst commute I ever had was when i lived in the west village and worked on Park and 59th. That regularly took over 40 minutes and forget it if it rained/snowed. In fact, i think I read somehwere that the average NYer has about a 30 min commute. Maybe NY magazine?

No way. I take the 2/3 express from 116th to our downtown office fairly regularly, and even the express takes 30 minutes, not counting waiting time.

I used to take the 1 from rector, and it took 1/2 an hour to get to my friend's place in the UWS. No way WH takes 1/2 an hour. Hopstop is not the only site that says otherwise - the MTA website and Google maps also say otherwise.

From 181st/broadway to 7 world trade center it takes 39-41 minutes...and that assumes no waiting time or walking time in WH.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=181st%20and%20broadway%2010039&rls=com.microsoft:*&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl