Is The Apthorp Kaput?

the market is so unsure of itself that nobody is bold enough to claim defeat just yet. at least that is what it seems.

Listings are still up on Elliman's website.

I saw some really desperate banner ads for it - I think on ny mag website but I forget.

the website is not gone; it's still there same as always.

It's back after the Observer article and after being completely gone for several days.
The building is a mess and anyone who knows anything about abatements, escalating maintenance costs, or who has read the engineering report carefully will head for the hills.
This whole thing has been a disaster from day one. RIP Apthorp.

Please share re: engineering reports.

The entire courtyard structure has to be replaced due to a faulty center beam.
Remember when the garage collapsed?
This is a huge project and guess who is going to end up paying for it.

The owner will pay for it. They bought the place as-is. The condo, should it ever become one, certainly won't.

Like I said, read the report.

Ill buy one of the bedrooms and make it my studio for 200k if they need the dough

Here is the LATEST APTHORP coverage...!

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/apthorp-conversion-drama-heats-up-for-dolly-lenz-and-africa-israel-investments-mann-realty-associates/comments

Formeraptenant: Thank you for the tips. Are you referring to the Sponsors' engineering report, the one commissioned by the Tenants' Association, or something else?

Read both. And then find out about the bids they're taking now to do a massive overhaul of the courtyard.

Saw some brokers feverishly pushing apts. there today, so they haven't met their goals yet, Dolly Lenz or no Dolly Lenz.
The apts. are still priced way too high and the planned "reconstruction," outlined to tenants today in a brusque memo, is going to take FOREVER. Meanwhile, the sq. footage is overestimated, the taxes are underestimated, the abatement they tell prospective buyers aint happenin,' there are a ton of rental tenants who aren't budging and the maintenance for buyers is going to go through the roof fast and furiously. And guess what else? Brangelina aint moving in.
Can you see why?

can anyone weigh in here on how the conversion or lack of conversion here will affect the market? If they make it to 25 sold by Sept. 15 will we suddenly have a wave of high ppsf comps to deal with which will allow current sellers across the city to believe the market has recovered? Conversely if it fails, will it mean that all that inventory will go back on the market for a new conversion proposal for next year with the possibility of depressing prices?

someone take a dump in front of the entrance... this thing is dead.... so much for the israeli/South Africa mafia....

even tho the realdeal reports 22 contracts -- though don't see any listing anywhere for any contracts

wow so if they don't get 25 sold by sept 15th, what happens then? will all those people who bought lose their money?

I hate that pharmacy too...overpriced and takes forever
How they stick around with duane reade's every two blocks is beyond me (although..DR is not exactly heaven, but hey...I've found no lines at the one on 78th and bway)

dreamer.. the unit buyers get money back.. it's the sponsors that's just baked into this thing.... that's what the rushmories would like... just to get their 10% back....

Thanks west67th, why is it so important to get 15% sold, why is 15% the cutoff?

luchias, otherwise the condo fails. the sponsor has to wait another year to file with the AG.

I'm not sure why I am ever repeating this speculation, but I heard second hand this morning quoting someone involved that the Apthorp has over 30 signed contracts and they expect to close in time to get AG approval. Word has it the advertisements will stop this week etc. etc.

I only think about this in the context of Apt23's question that if the plan goes through will this really change the minds of sellers/brokers as to where the market is?

If 30 apts are truly sold (I'm not betting on it) isn't that a sign of a recovery?

no, it's a sign the alcoholic has been given another drink and will have to postpone detox.

30 arms length trans. In a word 'no'.

Unless all 30 are done at $500 psf. But then they are toast with the follow up sales. Lmao. I feel like I need to go...... To the bathroom.

if the martians landed in times square, would that be a sign that there were extra-terrestrials? sure...but lets wait until they land.

water 123 Santa Claus is coming down my chimney on Christmas morning, too. Your skepticism is well-deserved. Everything has been hype and PR nonsense from the word go with this thing. Brangelina was moving in, Alec Baldwin, SJP and Mr. SJP, Bruce Willis and then last week, Matt Damon. The only ones they left out were the Pope and the Queen of England. What about Michelle and Barack? Don't they need a place, too? What no one ever mentions here is that a certain percentage of these sales must come from insiders and also people who plan to make this their primary residence. Everything is always about the number "25," but they could have 60 and still not have the right balance. Also, several of Leviev's relatives are the ones buying and they don't/won't count.

Any news on whether they have gone to contract with units?

Curious about what is going on there.

They've been so quiet, you know it's not good. If they had any decent news they'd be shooting their big mouths off.

The word now is that 90% of the reported sales have been to Orthodox families. And that several, if not many, have come in to buy several apts. on the spot, with no negotiating, barely bothering to even see the floorplans or apts. Surely the AG's office will investigate the possibility that some if not all of these people are shills?

there's no way that this will not go through with the 25. Dolly Lenz herself will buy a few just to make the number. formerapttenant-are you sure that there is a balance that has to be met? Why also would the attygeneral investigate unless somebody complains?

Skippy2222 wrote: "Why also would the attygeneral investigate unless somebody complains?"

The "somebody" will be the Tenants' Association. And if any of the buyers are connected in any way to Leviev, Mann, the brokers, the bankers, etc., the TA will see to it that the sale won't count toward the 15%. Also, multiple purchases by the same buyer (or multiple related buyers) only count as one.

Really, Orthodox Jewish families are automatically fake?

jerk

heard over 30 have been sold

Chogirl: I didn't take formerapttenant's remark as suggesting that Orthodox Jewish families are inherently more suspect than other buyers; nor, as a Jew, did I find the remark offensive.

In this particular narrow context, contracts with Orthodox buyers may be more vulnerable to challenge because of the sponsors' well-publicized religious affiliations. It may be politically incorrect to say so, and neither the AG's office nor anyone investigating the buyers will likely admit profiling, but I think this is a pretty obvious angle to pursue if the preponderance of buyers are from a narrow demographic that happens to also be the sponsors'.

Why would an Orthodox family want apartments with such floorplans? These are not family friendly apartments. Way too much wasted space, too few bedrooms, not really room for kosher kitchens. This smacks of false rumor to me.

Could they possibly get to the required number? Maybe. But I would assume there will be some serious scrutiny.

The really interesting development is the newly developer friendly stance of the AG. I've heard some grumblings recently that the AG is beginning to become very friendly towards developers. Could this have anything to do with fund raising needs in an election cycle?

Word is, look for the AG to start siding with developers and watch those campaign contributions roll in!

Actually the floorplans are ideal for Orthodox families because right now, they are breaking through in many parts of the building and creating duplexes, huge apartments. Makes sense.

Africa Israel Seeks to Restructure $5.5 Billion Debt (Update 1)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=email_en&sid=aaaYQwaEidMk

formeraptenant: a huge apartment doesn't make it ideal for a family, especially a large family. Look at the floorplans. Yes they are large but they don't have many bedrooms, they had much wasted space, they aren't family friendly in the sense of having eat-in-kitchens, separate kids wings, etc.

You want to see an Orthodox friendly floorplan? Go to 535 West End Ave. Tailor made. New construction. Amenities. Lots of closets. Expensive as hell, sure, but if I were Orthodox (I'm not), had multiple-multiple kids (I don't), and wanted a 5,000+ sq ft apartment and had $10 million to spend, I'd look at 535 WEA. Plus a tax abatement. Plus a kosher kitchen. Plus a building not in massive financial distress.

The Apthorp layouts are hindered by conversion with tenants in place. Can't move plumbing, restricted to bearing walls issues, etc.

Anyone claiming the layouts and building lend themselves to an Orthodox buyer is kidding themselves. 535 WEA lends itself to that kind of buyer. The Apthorp is a beautiful building with crappy ass floorplans.

I am not referring to floorplans for apartments currently featured with floorplans.
There are a slew of other apts. that have not come on the market yet, being combined to make huge, huge apts.

"Africa Israel Seeks to Restructure $5.5 Billion Debt (Update 1)http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=email_en&sid=aaaYQwaEidMk"

Newsflash: Turns out foreign investors can lose money on New York real estate as well. Let's try to keep this a secret so they will keep spending their money on one of a kind New York City no matter what the price!

Wow. Huge huge

that doesn't address anything I said. Unless they are magically able to move water and refuse lines in order to make normal lay-outs, I fail to see how the "huge, huge" could possibly compare with something like 535 WEA

Considering the CURRENT apartments with floorplans available ARE huge -- but cumbersome with lots of wasted space, I fail to see how combining two or even three of these would suddenly, magically, make a better floorplan.

And I'm sure the huge, huge will be the price as well as the taxes and maintenance. It's a sorry attempt to take something already crappy for this specific market (large families, kosher) and make it even HUGER CRAPPY.

Safire wouldn't like that use of language but it fits. It's hard enough to combine two apartments. Harder still in a solid pre-war without the ability to move mains.

But keep trying. "IDEAL" is something the marketing group would say...keep pitching those Orthodox families and pray that they never go over to 535 WEA...

What are the maintenance costs for these huge apartments?

Nobody'll know unless/until the condo becomes effective. The offering plan will give projections.

Somebody mentioned "reported sales" above. There haven't been any sales, and can't be yet. All we know is gossip about purchase agreements.

I don't know that the pre-WWI layouts would deter anybody who likes the Apthorp. The previous owner got $25K rents just by splitting big baths in two, combining maids' rooms, etc. It'll be interesting, if/when this goes through, to see how the renovated vs. unrenovated apartments sell.

Word is the sponsor is only selling unrenovated units at this point.

In relation to the question about combining units the challenge is actually easier at the Apthorp, if what I hear is true. Brokers are promising that folks combining and renovating in general will not have to work within the wet over dry requirements people have to normally deal with.

Pretty much gives an architect a blank slate to gut units and move things as they see fit. Riser location not a big deal.

There'll be lot of scope just recombining apartments that'd been split up over the years.

Riser location is a big deal. An added bath has to be adjacent to a plumbing riser. Otherwise you have to either raise the floor under your bath or lower the ceiling in the apartment below.

Apthorp has thick concrete slabs with the sub-floor built on top of 2x4's. You can easily route the plumbing through the floors without loosing floor-to-ceiling height.

Cost to do so is the extra pipe and labor to tie back to the riser. A pretty inexpensive feat in the scope of an overal gut renovation.

Problem is for the rent protected tenant's below who now might have a toilet over their bedroom or kitchen.

REjunkie: That plus a rent increase for the "Major Capital Improvement" of running the waste line across her bedroom ceiling.

hehe

Being able to channel into the structure below the subfloor would certainly be precedent-setting. That structure is part of the common elements, not part of the unit, but getting the board and engineering approvals wouldn't be impossible, I guess. I wouldn't undertake it myself, but no telling what somebody else might try.

easily route the plumbing through the common floor slabs?

I would be absolutely shocked if that is permitted. Wet over dry for a sponsor, sure. But once you close, you aren't a sponsor. They can't allow some apartments to have that ability post-close and some not. For how long? Who decides?

Yes, you can route water mains under the 2x4s in a gut but not the waste mains. Sorry charlie, those waste mains aren't being re-routed. You can add another bath directly adjacent but it still won't get you a decent floor plan.

Seems like an extraordinary amount of work and expense to get to something that will be a fortune to carry with rent-stabilized neighbors.

If the Apthorp genius marketing team is indeed going after the OU market, they'd better have a good response to 535WEA. There's no comparison. And no, I wouldn't live in 535 WEA either.

The RC/RS neighbors in the unsold units won't increase the CCs of the sold units. The first thing looked at in the offering plan is how the PCI is allocated. Any attempt by the sponsor to fudge the PCI of the units it'll continue to own would be seen through.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/08/31/business-industrials-ml-israel-crumbling-empire_6832021.html?partner=email

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09042009/news/regionalnews/w__side_celeb_palace_188120.htm

25 sold?!?

"The new buyers will be getting a bargain -- prices are down by about a third from the original offering prices. The longest-term tenants enjoy rent control and still pay less than $1,000."

Does that make sense?

Who cares what the discount is off of the original price? That has no relevance to market value.

I heard Gary Coleman is looking at a studio.

Wahtchu talkin' 'bout, Jerkstore?

I heard Gary's going into hiding from his husband beater wife.

what does a husband beater tee shirt look like?

I don't care how much the new condo owners aren't paying. If they're not paying now, they'll pay later.
The building is a mess, a poorly run disaster that is going to cost and cost and cost them.
They just got robbed.

I guess what will be most intersting to see is if someone goes to the AG and challenges the bona fides of the 25 "buyers".

30yrs: I think it's safe to say that there will be a challenge.

Since about 35% of sales seem to be to "cousins of Leviev," what do you think?

How does a challenge to the AG work? In who's interest is a challenge?

Too bad there is no way to verify all the rumors, filter thru the PR Machines, and word of mouth from brokers to know what is actually going on (besides the clear headaches ahead). 3,000' apartments for close to $2M? Bankruptcy? Straw buyers? Orthodox conspiracies? AG in the Developers pockets? Garry Coleman and links to "news" articles that verify that no one knows anything? The only information that seems credible is that unless the sponsor moves waste lines etc. its not going to happen (trying to be objective without being naïve here).

I was over there today and there were a ton of PDE brokers still trying to sell apts. kind of frantically.

So, not enough people want to give millions of dollars to live next door to Section 8 voucher neighbors? Perhaps if they removed the tenement-style window treatments that make the courtyard so utterly and totally depressing they would have been able sell these awkward apartments in a down market like this one. Instead, they let the people living there for almost nothing ruin their grandiose plans to ruin the building altogether.

Where did you find out how many Section-8 tenants there are?

All one has to do is look at the courtyard to see how many down-in-the-heels section 8 voucher recipients live in the building. the apartment with the pink sheets in the windows on the second or third floor to the left of the guard house as you exit the building is particularly apalling.

Those window treatments sound de-lovely & I can become a neighbor for only HOW MANY millions? Where do I sign?

Why do you think tenants with sheets in their windows are Section 8?
I remember a condo on First Avenue in the 50s (?Grand Beekman?) that sold out very quickly preconstruction, with the cheapest units going first, those for under $600,000. When it was completed and occupants moved in, I saw plenty of sheets in windows.

lowery, right, I see jerry-rigged curtains in new condos all the time. That's why some require a particular brand and color of blind.

Get_Real, thanks for the specifics. Of those four apartments -- 2KS, 3KS, 2M, 3M -- one is market at $6K, one is stabilized at $2K, and the other two are controlled at $2.4K and $1.7K. Those're 2007 figures, so add 8% or so. Not Section-8-eligible, and all four googleable as literary or theatrical types. Sound fine to me, and what make the Apthorp the Apthorp.

It is Sep 15th - any updates?

You would think people like curbed would be all over this. I'm sure people are trying to get info, but if no one is talking, then no one is talking.

I can't imagine the developers being the first to say, "We're screwed"; at least not to the press. It will probably take a little time for the info to trickle out.

I hope none of the staff get laid off because the project is a failure. A lot of the doormen and former elevator operators are wonderful guys. None of them deserve to be given the shaft due to a combination of poor market conditions and developers who clearly overpaid for a piece of crap, down-in-the-heals piece of real real estate that seems beyond rehabilitation, especially when it is inhabited during the conversion.

I don't think this can happen: since there are still RS/RC tenants, you can not do anything which is a "reduction of service". I remember the fist time I was in 2 Fifth Avenue and they had elevator operators for the automatic elevators pushing the buttons and thought to myself "now THIS is fucking idiotic".

on a lighter note:

happened to re-watch Heartburn with Meryl Streep & Jack Nicholson. great interior/exterior shots of Aprthorp from the mid 80's. highly recommend it.

CC, I LOVED that film but haven't seen it in years; thanx for the tip!

Since all of the contracts are "Friends of Leviev," there will be a cash-only requirement for new contracts as new mortgage requirements make it nearly impossible to get a bank loan on a new development when that many units are controlled by a single party.

Matt Damon moved into the Belnord about a month ago. The interesting thing is that he never even looked at the Apthorp, as was reported. More PDE/Dolly Lenz PR garbage. When the item appeared, Damon had already signed at the Belnord.
DUH. Are we surprised?

I spoke with a friend today who claims to know the happenings at the Apthorp. He says they sold over 30 apartments, and are all done!

Is it possible us small timers were all wrong?

SE says that there are 165 units at the Apthorp; certainly there are RC & RS units but even 30 units sold wouldn't seem to do the trick. Hmmm -

isn't it only 15% that have to sell?

Yes, in a non-eviction plan, the sponsor needs contracts on 15% of the units from distinct, unaffiliated buyers before submitting the declaration amendment.

The 500-pound gorilla in the corner is the likely bogusness of some of those contracts. But as 30yrs pointed out, that's only a problem if somebody stands up and says "Excuse me Mr. Cuomo; isn't that a gorilla in the corner?"

AHA - that 'splains it.

Perhaps someone has:

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/leviev-under-fire-by-investors-at-apthorp-africa-israel-group-broadwall-management-the-apthorp-feil-organization

I love it - the insiders' price for a $10MM apt is only $4.95MM. So if the tenants are rent stabilized or rent control tenants, that might be a little out of their price range. Or, if they're paying market rate rent on a large apartment, let's see, their income might be what, $200,000? $300,000? And what percentage of a person's income might carrying costs for a low, low, low insiders' price of $5MM represent? Any good number crunchers read this? Might that be around 100% of the annual gross income of someone who earns $300,000?

Dolly Lenz won't talk? Uh oh. What a mess! The whole thing is a farce. The building is an unbelievable mess and the plan a disaster. Anyone who planned on buying there should try to get their deposit back and run as fast as possible in the opposite direction.

Meantime, surprise, surprise. Money has trumped religion. Last year, Leviev's company sent tenants a memo declaring that no building work was to be done on the Jewish holidays. This year on Rosh Hashana and again today, the demolition and work continues apace.

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/apthorp-tenants-lawyer-filing-for-rent-reduction-as-residents-lodge-complaints-to-andrew-ratner

Do the people who are buying apartments in the Apthorp know that they will be moving into a construction site with the illegal and irresponsible dispersal of lead paint and asbestos? Do they know that the current magagement has forbidden government inspectors to enter the premises in order to take tests of air and water and asbestos and lead levels? The original intention of these owners was to clear the building and shut it down for 2 years in oerder to do all the proposed demolition and construction, but 70+ tenants are still there. They did not count on this but have just gone ahead with everything anyway, as if it was an empty building, jeopardizing everyone's health on a continuing basis, day after day. People who are planning on moving into the Apthorp should have all this information and not be blinded by PR and doubletalk from people who want to save a few bucks at everyones' expense.

Bump - somebody wanted info on the Apthorp.

Bump - 28 listings in contract.

Today the huge, inflated union rat was parked out front the majestic Apthorp gates. Now it's not just the tenants upset and concerned about the massive demolition there being done unsafely and illegally. The rat was there because of the workers' own fears about asbestos and the fact that they have no more protection than the tenants do, despite repeated placating from Andrew Ratner and the Feil Organization. Nothing changes and the site is no safer than 6 months agao and quite possibly even more dangerous.

This debacle has been ill-fated since Day 1 and the drama only gets weirder. Meanwhile, the attorney general continues to investigate all apt. sales due to rumors of highly improper deals being made and the Apthorp has still not been granted condo status and there is still talk of potential foreclosure any day now.

First closing. ~$1,200 psf. Should be interesting to watch the rest of it unfold (unwind?).

07/22/2010 #3B $2,859,500 (sale price) $6,608,000 (ask) 2 beds 2 baths 2,350 ft²

It's about time. In 2006 #3B was rent-controlled, with a tenant paying $2460. I guess she was bought out. The tiny PHA had a market-rate tenant paying $2500.

Another one. ~$1,300 psf. Higher floor. Time to get the popcorn and kick back take in the spectacle.

07/26/2010 #10L $3,889,715

If I recall correctly, the developer paid $2,000 /sq ft. Hard to imagine many more sales at $1300. Something tells me this will end up in the hands of the creditors.

Aren't these just the allegedly sham sales that were done just to get to the 15% threshold to make the plan effective?