One Brooklyn Bridge Park - Hurricane Damage

OBBP is a rich persons purchase. Its on a land lease, and zone A, you can bet that the common charges and taxes are going to skyrocket. They already have increased significantly as the park is getting developed, and now with insurance claims on flooding, its only going to go up. I would only purchase there if you have the deep pockets that dont care if the prices go up and you can easily sustain any increase. It is a beautiful building, but like a Ferrari, its not for everyone. The upkeep will be costly.

angeloz, have any facts to support your contentions? While most buildings in the City increased common charges this year between 3-8%, there was NO increase in OBBP's common charges. The development of the park and OBBP's common charges and taxes have nothing to do with each other. Indeed, neither CCs nor taxes have increased significantly as the park has developed. What has happened as the park has developed is that unit values have appreciated significantly.

pinkpanther, the building did indeed sustain significant damage to its physical plant due to substantial flooding of its basement. Its too early to know for sure, but there is no current expectation of either an increase in common charges or the imposition of a special assessment. It is anticipated that the building's insurance will cover the vast majority of the damages. OBBP's financial condition is excellent and it should be able to manage a certain level of storm related expense without necessitating these these measures.

I would also not that throughout the storm and its aftermath the building's staff and management company have been truly exceptional and have helped make a difficult situation much more bearable. It truly is a great building.

I am interested as to what lender you are using and what insurance requirements they are imposing. The building has a master flood policy that covers both the building and all units. So the only requirements they could impose are for homeowners' insurance, which does not cover flood damage.

We are having catastrophic weather events on a regular basis these last years & flood insurance may not always be available as the seas rise ~ caveat emptor.

the CC may not go up until the new policy will be written. then you'll feel the pain. a lot of it.

gatornyc, thanks for letting us know OBB is financially sound, and there's no CC or Tax increase at all.

however, Sandy is making OBB to pay a fair share............

Isn't that bldg. partially standing INSIDE the water by design? That should have prepared this bldg. better for Sandy...but what do I know...

Agreed, angeloz.

Based on what I have been told by friends in the building:

Sandy has been catastrophic for OBBP and has made life difficult for the residents with many still unable to return to their homes 12 days after the storm. While the onsite building staff have been completely committed to the restoration of the building, and this restoration process is well underway, there is still a long way to go.

DAMAGE from Sandy to OBBP:
- The entire buildings main electrical switchgear was submerged during the tidal surge. Consequently, salt waters degraded the system
- The heat pump was severely damaged
- The buildings Fire Protection System was put out of service due to the panel being submerged in the tidal surge

RESTORATION to OBBP:
- The current building boilers can be saved so an entirely new physical plant will not be installed. All electrical components will be replaced within the system. Potential long term damage unknown
- Electrical services have been temporarily restored to the elevators and some mechanical areas
- Elevator use is limited. The balance of the elevators is being monitored and an overall assessment of necessary repairs to the elevators will be submitted
- The Fire Protection system was offline and OBBP is awaiting the final proposal for necessary replacements
- Restoration crews continue to remove damaged and submerged sheetrock and replace as needed

In summary, OBBP is working with a public adjuster to facilitate the insurance claim process. While much of the damage and consequential restoration costs should be covered by the insurance, it is unknown how this will fully affect the costs of future OBBP insurance policies.

The ongoing significant impact on daily life to the residents is something one should consider as part of the risk of living so close to the waters edge (Zone A), especially when Hurricanes may become a more frequent event to the geography.

panther: Gator is a biased owner. He's been lashing out at everyone who speaks up the numerous pitfalls of OBBP for years (check the old threads: he's on each and ever yone of them). Now you what him to admit he's on the wrong side of BQE?
W. common charges/maintenance fees rising in most buildings city-wide, you may wonder how OBBP has pulled off the magic of having zero increase: The sponsor still holds tens of units after selling for 5+ years and thus strategically keeps the cc artificially low, in spite of a normal course where costs can only shoot up as more tenants move in, using more service and utilities. This is not unique to OBBP though: owners in many new developments saw their costs skyrocket once the sponsor got out of it.

Yep. This is clearly a building for one-percenters who have virtually unlimited personal funds to afford when their monthlies double, then triple ... and beyond.

Buybye, I am an owner and have always been upfront about it so people are aware of any potential bias. As for your contention that I've been lashing out at everyone, this is simply wrong. I've always stated that OBBP has its advantages and disadvantages and have acknowledge that it isn't for everyone (no building is). If I've "lashed out" at anyone its been at posters who have unfairly criticized and lashed out at OBBP without facts, with patently incorrect information, with their own undisclosed agendas, etc. My posts speak for themselves and I am very comfortable with them. As always, it seems that anyone can deride OBBP with impunity, but when an owner tries to set the record straight they are automatically unreliably biased.

I am also very comfortable with the financial situation of the building. You are correct that there are sponsors that keep CCs artificially low to make units look more attractive, but I am abundantly familiar with the details of the building's financial and know that this is not the case with OBBP. We were able to not increase CCs this year because the building has been well managed and financially prudent. The building is 85% occupied and costs will not change based on additional occupancy. Utilities will not increase as all common areas are already fully lit, heated, etc. The building is already staffed for full occupancy. Insurance for the building does not change based on occupancy nor does the land lease payment. Our maintenance contracts for the physical plant also do not change. I could go on. Indeed, the residents take control of the Board this coming spring and I know that CCs will not change because the sponsor is no longer in control. So NYCMatt monthlies will not double or triple (facts please). Ab_11218 is correct that flood insurance premiums may increase, which could contribute to an increase in CCs in the future but even an substantial increase in flood insurance premium would not result in a lot of pain as it is only about 4% of the building's yearly costs.

Bear in mind the lack of credibility of the detractors of OBBP on this board. Some of the posters on this thread were the same people who said that the building would go under. It didn't. That units would have to be firesaled. They weren't They said that the units were overpriced, but most units have steadily, and often substantially appreciated over the past several years (based on recent closings my unit has appreciated 50% in 2.5 years; I'm sure there are some people who may have listened to the detractors on this board who are now kicking themselves for doing so). They said that Brooklyn Bridge Park wouldn't be built, but it has been albeit more slowly than expected due to economic conditions (Pier 5 will open before year's end, work is progressing on Pier 2 and 4 and the Pier 2/3 uplands which will open Fall 2013, and work has started on the rest of Pier 6; I think that will be 85% of the Park). People can decide for themselves who they want to listen to.

There has been a tremendous amount of misinformation about the building on this board and that is the negative of an anonymous message board. Again I've always disclosed that I was an owner in the building so people knew exactly where I was coming from. Most of the people on this board who have derided OBBP have never even been to OBBP let alone have actual factual information about the building. Anyone can have an opinion, but that doesn't mean that opinion is worth much. These boards have become almost worthless because of posters who don't actually know much about what they speak and because they are inhabited principally by trolls and posters with their own hidden agendas. People coming to these boards for valid information should bear this in mind.

Lastly, nyc212, I'm not sure what you are referring to but OOBP is not partially standing inside the water. As for the building's preparedness, I would note that Irene did not cause any impact on the building (no flooding, no damage, no loss of power, etc). And while Superstorm Sandy certainly had a significant impact it must be viewed in context as it was the worst storm in recorded history in NYC. Weather is becoming more severe but the expectation that Sandy will become anything close to a regular event seems misplaced. In addition, OBBP is MUCH better off than many buildings in Lower Manhattan (Fidi, BPC, etc.) and other areas of Brooklyn (DUMBO, Red Hook).

Sorry to all for the long post/diatribe.

I'm glad that you are O.K. gator. Really.

Thanks Truth, much appreciated. Hope you are well too.

If I were a potential buyer, I'd take advantage of this situation and try to get a lower bid accepted. If 14' surges really do become more frequent (highly unlikely), it seems unlikely that we'd abandon much of the city. The gov will step in a build a surge barrier as many other coastal cities have done (and which is already being discussed by policy makers). In the mean time, the building could add some flood prevention measures which may create an assessment, but would increase value of the building.

All's good, gator. Thanks.

Thank you button-down & gatornyc - the info you put forth concurs with what I have heard. It does seem like there has been a considerable amount of damage. Fortunately, I have the ability to wait a couple of months before proceeding in hopes that the amount of the damage will be quantified. I expect that a lot of those with "contracts out" will delay signing until such information is known.

Happy to hear that the staff of the building handled the crisis well. The friendly nature of the staff was one of the reasons I finally decided to buy in the building.

Having owned many properties in Manhattan (currently FIDI) I am excited by a potential move to Brooklyn.

Some facts - OBBP has $109 million of flood insurance coverage, $2,000 deductible, and $362k yearly premium. The flood insurance cost for a 900 sq ft unit comes out to $40/mo.

Was just visiting in the building and heard some insurance assessors talking about flood damage in a couple of units? Does anyone know what kind of damage, if any, was sustained to condos from the tidal surge?

Gator - You lost every bit of credibility (as if you had any in the first place), when you failed to mention any of those substantial damages the building sustained. So there's limited elevator service & heating, potential electric & fire danger, and it's still uninhabitable for MANY residents? Best luck w. sleeping on the couch of a friend away from your "financially sound" building and dealing w. the insurance company for months!
Thank you Button-down for the invaluable info. Bummer it came second-handly but not from actual owners on this thread...

Look, nobody hates the developer RAL, of OBBP more than me.

But RAL has enough non-related to OBBP aggravation and worries these days to suit me just fine.
His mafia contractor who worked on the building is going to be sentenced in December for assorted felonious mafia activity. The contractor's brother was murdered by Sammy The Bull and the contractor refuses to rat out RAL or anybody else.

The building is well-insured, and if nyc_observer isn't telling the truth, your RE attorney will find out while doing due dilly on the Building.

The Building is still standing and the resultant problems from the hurricane can be repaired.
If you want to buy there, now is your chance to purchase with a good negotiation chip.
The value has most certainly gone down.
Look at lower Manhattan RE and you will see the same situation.

gator is a good guy and if he's not on the Condo's Board, he should be.
Nobody will fight for the Building as gator will and nobody is more qualified to know the legalities
of any such circumstance.

So, if you don't want to purchase there, nobody will force you.

But please, we are in a post-disaster situation of huge proportions, throughout NYC.
Let's try to have at least a bit of compassion for the OBBP residents, however wealthy they are.
And--that's the Truth.

Having said that:
Hey, Ral you PRICK:
How did you like living without electricity, you scumbag?!

Did you run to your house in Conn., you coward?
Was the electricity working there, you piece of sub-human garbage?

How is your "pancreatic cancer", which you "have been dying from" since 1999, you piece of shit?

buybye, what are you talking about? pinkpanther already knew much about the damage. His original post stated that he knew that the "building has sustained a lot of damage including destroyed electrical switchgear, a damaged boiler and significant sheetrock damage." All of things are true. He asked for perspective following such damages and I provided mine. Indeed, I specifically stated "the building did indeed sustain significant damage to its physical plant due to substantial flooding of its basement." Pinkpanther appreciated my post stating "Thank you . . . gatornyc - the info you put forth concurs with what I have heard." I could care less what you think of my post.

I would note that one aspect of buttondown's information was incorrect namely that "many [residents are] still unable to return to their homes 12 days after the storm." All of the units have been accessible and habitable at all times. Indeed, I estimate that of the approximately 75% percent of our residents who did not relocate prior to Sandy about 2/3 stayed in their units after the storm. The residential units NEVER lost power (unlike millions of others in NY/NJ/CT), not even for one day. We did lose water, HVAC and elevator service. Partial elevator service (2 of the 5 primary elevators) was restored on Sat., Nov. 3 (in 5 days), and full elevator service was restored on Nov. 5 (in 7 days). Water was restored today. The residents who decided to relocate temporarily after the storm did so because of the unquestionable inconveniences/difficulties imposed by the situation, not because the units were uninhabitable to which all of the residents who did stay can attest.

In sum, we never lost power, elevator service was restored in one week and water was restored in just over two weeks. All you have to do is do a little reading of the news reports and curbed.com to learn that no other building that sustained the type of damage OBBP did has been able to restore utilities as quickly as OBBP. This is a testament to our staff, management company and residents. You make it sound like OBBP is the only building that sustained damage when in fact of all of the damaged buildings OBBP has responded as well as any building and better than 95% of them. You've contributed nothing but vitriol and misinformation to this thread (or others involving OBBP). Please stop. If you or anyone else has a specific question about OBBP I'll do my best to answer it.

As Sandy proved you don't have to live on the water to be seriously impacted by a hurricane like Sandy. As we all know many of the millions of the people who lost power, heat and/or water because of the storm live inland. Very few areas were immune to Sandy. Many lost utilities for far longer than OBBP did (again we never lost power). Consequently, I disagree that the value of OBBP or other properties along the waterfront or in Lower Manhattan have or will decline in value.

BTW, nycobserver's numbers are spot on. Our flood insurance premium could double and it would be a $40 month impact on a 900 sq. ft. unit or the price of a movie for two. And it won't come close to doubling.

And for Truth, thanks for the kind words. I do wish, however, that you would keep your vendetta with RAL off this and other OBBP threads. The building is 85% sold and the building is really now the unit owners and the sponsor just isn't relevant anymore to this or most other building issues.

gator: It has been a long time since I have mentioned RAL on any OBBP discussion thread or any other.

So, I just did. If RAL isn't relevant to OBBP anymore, why would you care?

Wish DENIED!
Go rub your magic genie lamp, you still have two wishes left.
Put them to good use.

gatornyc, what's the current cc level? assuming obp has a tax abatement so the re tax is like nothing for 15 years (?)

"Water was restored TODAY. The residents who decided to relocate because of ...inconveniences..., not because the units were uninhabitable"
Yeah, we all have to agree: a building w/o water for two full weeks is mere inconvenience, totally inhabitable... Now that I get your perception dolce vita, no further comments needed. Thank you!

Whatever, can't even try to be nice and considerate of the residents.
RAL's eldest son is the managing agent (as far as I know, unless that has changed. You can google him but he does not list the Buildings he manages on his website. Imagine that.)

The younger son may or may not live there. His spoiled ass isn't living there now, that's for sure.

I think that when I mentioned the Gambino associate who did work on the Building for RAL, that was a sore point.
For all I know, that mafia guy may decide to change his mind and testify about all of the corners that were cut during construction.

When a convicted/already served prison time felon mafioso has more dignity than RAL, you know the level of scum that is connected there.

A wasted wish, indeed. Two more to go, I'm betting that the next wish is that buybye loses his typing skills.

caonima, our CCs are $1.02/sq. ft. give a take a few cents for variables such as units with terraces or other variables. Very competitive considering that we have land lease payments and must carry flood insurance. We do have a J-51 exemption and abatement so taxes will remain very low for years.

buybye, you're right one's perception can be very relevant, but I think it is yours that needs adjusting. A building that does not have water, but has power, can certainly be habitable particularly when the building has several large Poland Spring water deliveries made to the building and delivered to units, made staff showers available for use by residents (New York Sports Club and Equinox also made there showers available to residents at no charge), etc. These and other measures were taken to minimize the unquestionable inconvenience caused by the lack of water.

We've all seen uninhabitable buildings and homes on the news such as red tagged and other buildings in Lower Manhattan (which have informed their residents that it may still be 2-6 months before their buildings are habitable) and homes in Breezy Point, Belle Harbor, Hoboken, along the NJ shore and South Shore of Long Island. What about all the homes on Long Island, Westchester and New Jersey that are STILL without power and, therefore, usually without water or heat. In contrast, OBBP is certainly habitable.

Truth, we were getting along so well again. I made one small request that we focus on the actual issues on hand and you go off on it again. Indeed, as you noted "we are in a post-disaster situation of huge proportions, throughout NYC. Let's try to have at least a bit of compassion." That's all I was asking.

buybye, read this thread to get some perspective: http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2012/11/11/curbeds_uptothesecond_guide_to_zone_a_building_rebirth.php#more

I was focusing on the actual issues at hand, gator.
You made a wish and wasted it on something that should not matter to you.
You weren't asking for something I already was doing, you were wishing for something else that
should not have mattered to you.

I have very good reading comprehension skills.

truth, the profit is so high in nyc RE, so the gambinos didn't need to cut corner at all. besides, if they had this project for money laundry purpose, they didn't need to cut corner either

caonima doesn't get the drift of how it works.
RAL is greedy and doesn't like to pay for things like sufficient fireproofing. See: Attorney General file: "Franklin Tower" , TriBeCa.
The mafia contractors get paid by RAL and don't care about what they don't install properly.
RAL is so greedy, he didn't want to pay a mafia contractor.
He was eventually persuaded to pay.

There are so many other non-mafia people RAL has done wrong by.
As I speak to more of them I hear what he did and it doesn't surprise me.
Many times those people say: "I wish he was dead.", or some variation of wishful thinking.
The problem with wishful thinkers is that they don't accomplish anything by mere force of wishing.
It's a temporary feel-good outlet.
I'd rather kill RAL by a thousand little cuts.
When he gets nervous or upset he breaks out in shingles.

The other issue OP may need to worry about if he decides to buy with a mortgage, what bank will give him a mortgage on high risk building.

pencap, Wells Fargo and Bank of America are preferred lenders and many other lenders have been issuing mortgages for purchases. The lenders require flood insurance for the individual unit, but the building's master flood policy provides such coverage.

thanks gator for speaking the obvious--the issue is: will banks continue to lend? will insurers continue to insure?

they are anything but contractually obligated to continue--my bet is they will either cease lending/insuring such properties, charge a huge premium if they continue, and/or seek taxpayer subsidy to offset their exposure--few of these options speak to anything but lesser relative values for properties such as yours.

cheerlead as you wish--the economics are simple---your building has potential to experience serious economic hardship, possibly regularly---this will be reflected in relatively higher operating cost, and attendant lower property values

considering a place liveable that has no water but electricity is just crazy. i'll take water over electricity any day. just put a generator on your imaginary terrace and there you go ;)

Caonima: SE listings show that J-51 will expire on 2020. It means, for new purchasers, you'll have RE tax at current level for only 2-3 years, before it will be creeping up 20% each year starting as soon as 2015-2016.
I recall OBBP has another "payment in lieu of tax" assessed for the park/land lease, which also increases 3% annually(don't have time to dig about this though, please don't quote me). So you may need to combine both.

Gator - You are misleading on this topic again. "very low for YEARS"? Why can't you simply give out these hard numbers?
Per your consistent style, I can figure you argue again: 2-3 years are plural. Grammatically, correct. But given the current status of the building & pending repair/insurance issue, even those already in contract wouldn't be able to close before 2013. And then, a property owner needs to live in place at least 2 years to qualify for captain gain tax exemption at resale... BAM, and the tax increase hits you.

"I'd rather kill RAL by a thousand little cuts. "

Mr Truth, you dare to publicly announce death threat to a gambino enterprise. does it mean you are from another powerful mafia family?

Oh, I bet you are enjoying using Poland Spring to flush toilet. Or, you might go to Equinox every couple of hours to pee & poo, in addition to shower... That is before I realized both NYSC & Equinox are 8 blocks away on the edge of Brooklyn Heights/Downtown Brooklyn (you made it sound like they are located on site in the building)...

Thank you for the link to Curbed. OBBP isn't on the list b/c it's located in an OUTER-borough, and not in the attention grabbing Brooklyn Heights. Same case for Long Island City, where many buildings sustained huge damage but go unmentioned...
How desperate you are so as to take Breezy Point as a comparable? However, if it makes you feel any better, I'm cool w. it.

I was in OBBP over the weekend and saw/heard insurance assessors with residents. They were talking about Hurricane damage to a condo unit there and the consequntial costs. Does anyone know how, if at all, any units were damaged? Did any flood water from the tidal surge enter any of the town homes or condos on lower floors?

I saw some flood water in the commercial spaces and garage the day after Sandy. Any word on whether vehicles were damaged and any conseqential toxic gasoline/oil/fumes damage to sheetrock/walls/foundation? How does this affect the commercial space leases that were in progress?

Very entertaining thread! Please keep it up.

buybye, this is probably my last response to your posts because you bring no information to this discussion you just want to criticize and attempt to pick apart my posts.

I did not mislead anyone. The information on Streeteasy on OBBP's J-51 is incorrect or, at minimum, incomplete. OBBP has both a J-51 tax abatement and an exemption. The exemption is in effect for 15 years (not sure of when or if it phases out). The abatement is in place for 20 years and I believe it is phased out by 20% every two years between years 10-20. I believe that both went into effect in 2008 so the exemption is in place until 2023. As for the abatement I believe it starts phasing out in 2018 (so current RE taxes will remain the same for about 6 years not 2-3 years) and is fully phased out in 2028 (16 years). So between the impact of the exemption and the abatement "taxes will remain very low for years." Before you accuse someone of misleading people you should make sure your facts are correct.

Also, the PILOT payments OBBP residents pay are the equivalent of RE taxes but are paid directly to Brooklyn Bridge Park. The J-51 applies to the PILOT payments. The PILOTs do not increase by 3% a year. The 3% a year pertains to OBBP's land lease payment, which does increase by 3% a year.

And buybye you don't flush a toilet with Poland Spring water. That's why you fill your tub! The building provided Poland Spring water for drinking, cooking, etc. As for showers, as I mentioned there also were showers made available on the second floor of OBBP (staff showers). And how exactly did I make it sound like NY Sports and Equinox were on site? Any one with any knowledge of OBBP would know that they are not (you're showing your colors buybye). The loss of water was was certainly challenging and very inconvenient, but it doesn't change the fact that all units were habitable at all times, that many residents chose to stay in their units, and that OBBP was able to restore services as quickly or before essentially all of the almost 200 similarly impacted buildings.

Everyone gets that you have an issue with me (for whatever reason) and don't like OBBP, but that doesn't give you the right to use incorrect facts and spout uninformed opinions.

Yikes, lenders are not going to stop lending in Zone A areas particularly for hi-rise buildings as opposed to single-family property. Lenders have not stopped lending in Baton Rouge, Miami or other areas devastated by hurricanes and its not going to happen here. Same goes for insurers who because of state regulation usually have to leave stop writing coverage in an entire state if they refuse to write coverage for certain areas. These questions get asked because we have never been hit by a storm like this. And that is exactly why insurers won't stop writing coverage here. They'll likely continue collecting premium for many years before having to pay out on losses like this again here. So I'll take your bet.

button-down, I am not aware of damage to any residential unit and do not think it would be possible. The townhomes start on the second floor which is about 30 feet from ground level. There was no flood at the point closest to the piers and at least 15 feet above ground level as you move up towards Furman Street. Flood waters were nowhere near this level and I can't see any scenario by which flood waters could have entered any owner's unit.

As for the commercial lease, the wine store did not sustain damage and the pet boarding/grooming/supply business also did not experience flood damage but did lose power. I do not believe that either lease would be impacted. Regarding the garage, I spoke to the garage manager after Sandy and he told me that the garage did not sustain any damage and all cars were moved up to the entrance level to the second level so no cars were damaged.

J-51 abatement expires in 2020 on every listing (upper right corner below Common Charges & Monthly Taxes):
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/695587-condo-360-furman-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/731655-condo-360-furman-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn
See it w. your own eyes.
On a separate note, still wondering what you fill your tub with in a building w/o water... But never mind. Seems that only those 100 houses burnt to ground in Breezy Point are uninhabitable in your book.

And no, I don't have issue but compassion for you. Not only b/c the "inconvenience" you're experiencing after a (hopefully) once in a life time hurricane, but b/c of your constant siege mentality.

I've seen it with my own eyes in the offering plan, documents from the NYC Dept of Finance, etc. You have only Streeteasy that just added this information to its building listings and Streeteasy is wrong. Do believe everything that's written on a website?

And wow buybye, perseverate much? You fill your tubs BEFORE the storm as part of basic storm preparations. Where are you from?! How do you not aware of or understand this simple step that helps alleviate one of the main problems for not having water?

Also, as I've stated, many homes were uninhabitable after the storm both in coastal areas AND inland. These were homes without power and consequently usually without heat and water. That's certainly uninhabitable in my book. Try reading my posts again. But I don't think that a building that doesn't have water is inhabitable particularly if you've taken the prudent step of filling your tub and drinking water is being delivered to your unit. Difficult and inconvenient, absolutely. Uninhabitable, no. Frankly, it's no comparison to the many homes and buildings that had and continue to have no power (and again therefore most often no heat and water). That's my opinion. You disagree. Enough said.

How many tubs do you have to provide enough water from late Oct thru yesterday??? Do you rationize your water use or frequency to pee? Did you predict that water outage would last for half a month? And tubful of stagnant stillwater in an apt for two weeks? I have to say I've been fortunate not to be put up w. this neither in the 10 years living in the City nor in any other places in my life. But wow, living in Zone A is a life-enriching experience!

OK, I trust your offering plan. So in a couple of years:
1. Tax abatement will be phased out;
2. Tax exemption would expire;
3. PILOT will reach 30-40% higher that the baseline.
Boy is it a killer w. all the above combined!
This is the most complicated tax combo I've heard of. Can't blame SE having a hard time understanding and stating it correctly. :)

Two tubs can go a long way. And yes you ration your water use. You don't flush every time you pee (you shouldn't as a matter of course -- its a tremendous waste of water). If a tub full of "stagnant" water bothers you in a situation like this than you're pretty damn sensitive. Are you really not aware of this fundamental storm preparation measure or do you just denigrate everything?

And you just don't seem to get the point that so many of the people that have had to deal with the loss of power, water, heat, etc. for a extended period of time as a result of Sandy were not in Zone A. This was hardly just a Zone A problem no matter how hard you try to make it. All of Long Island was severely impacted, all of Manhattan below 34th street when Con Ed cut the power, many inland areas of NJ, Westchester, Rockland. Why is this so difficult to understand? By your logic anyone who has been without power, etc. for an extended period of time should relocate. How'e that going to work?

To address your last question: your failure to evacuate actually committed a crime, not to speak civil liability! The fact that it is unenforced doesn't give you right to brag about your ignorance & miserability.

Excerpt: Criminal Law

Some states have passed legislation providing for criminal sanctions for failing to obey an evacuation order. One such state is New York. Under New York law, in the event of a disaster or other like catastrophe, the chief executive, or mayor, can declare a state of emergency and order a mandatory evacuation. See N.Y. Exec. Law § 24(1)(b). The statute also provides that "any person who knowingly violates any local emergency order of a chief executive...is guilty of a class B misdemeanor." Id. § 24(5). A person charged with a class B misdemeanor may face jail-time of up to three months.§ 70.15(2).

Think twice next time before you thoughtfully fill up those 2 tubs: by law, it's not an option for Zone A residients (only).

"Although a person refusing to evacuate may be civilly liable, the rescuer, on the other hand, will not be subject to liability in an emergency situation. First, by failing to evacuate, the person in danger has assumed the risk of any loss, injury or damage that may occur. He or she, therefore, cannot take any action against the state or emergency responders for failure to rescue or for any damages that may occur as a result of an attempted rescue. Moreover, many states have adopted emergency management acts that give responders immunity in emergency situations.

Under these theories, states and emergency responders are reiterating their message that they will not be held responsible for one’s choice not to evacuate when told to do so. On the contrary, it is the person who refuses to evacuate that may be responsible, both criminally and civilly, for their decisions.

Thanks gatornyc for your note about the damage to units. I like pinkpanther was thinking about purchasing a unit at OBBP but the flooding issues give me serious cause for concern, so am unlikely to go this direction now. Time to start looking elsewhere on higher ground!

You can't respond to my arguments so you go on another tangent? I'm well aware of the law buybye. Interesting that you only threw this out now. What you don't know, of course, is that both the FDNY and NYPD were fully aware that many OBBP residents had decided not to evacuate. The building communicated that information to them. Regardless this has nothing to do with the propriety of filling a tub or whether a building without water is uninhabitable.

Perhaps you misunderstood my question. It wasn't about relocating in response to a storm. It was in response to your contention that the potential costs and inconveniences of living in Zone A made Zone A undesirable. I was pointing out that MANY outside of Zone A experienced the same inconveniences of living without power, water, etc. as those in Zone A did.

You've taken this discussion so far away from the original poster's question and issues at hand that I'm done with this thread. You are welcome to have the last word if you want it.

LOL, didn't you said it's your last response about ten posts ago? Anyway, 2nd wish granted, which is a progress already. Now only one more left. Put it to better use.

failure to evacuate when directed by local government and emergency services is shameful.
so what if you made nypd and nyfd aware you were refusing to comply with the evacuation order.

reminds me of the dopes on 60 mins bragging all heroic about how they swam their kids out of belle harbor. Idiots. If one of their children or a responder had drowned because of their idiotic misguided "pride"/machismo; it would be a stupid tragedy.

Anyone who defies an evacuation order is a reckless, selfish, idiot.

If you buy/live in a place subject to evacuation, evacuate when told to, or buy/live elsewhere.

Issuing an evacuation order is easy enough for the authorities. The actual process may not be so easy for those affected. Did the city provide shelter for the 375,000 people ordered to evacuate? Where to and how are people supposed to evacuaete, specially those without nearby relatives or cars?

I think the evacuation order is given so that politicians are off the hook in case something does happen. In case of BBP, staying there certainly turned out to be much less of an inconvenience than going to a shelter (despite the loss of water and only partial elevator service).

>failure to evacuate when directed by local government and emergency services is shameful.

Bloomberg

>Anyone who defies an evacuation order is a reckless, selfish, idiot.

Christie

if one can afford to pay 7 figures to live in bbp, and one is educated enough to understand flood potential, and has chosen to live with that risk incl that one may be ordered to evacuate occasionally; well then one should evacuate when ordered---take a hotel for a week or two--or li9ve elsewhwere

such is what buying in bbp is about--buy or dont, but dont cherry pick evacuation orders if youve chosen to buy and a surge hits.

hello global warming.

I suppose "cheery pick evacuation order" is another way of saying "use the avaialble information and your own judgement" to see if evacuation is warranted in a particular situation.

Zone A designation is based on proximity to the water and / or elevation. It does not distinguish according to the type of building. It may actually be dangerous to remain in a one-family house not constructed for this kind of weather, but in a building designed to withstand winds much higher than those brought by Sandy, evacuating or not may come down to a matter of convenience.

As far as I know, nobody of the thousands of people in zone A who decided to stay has actually been charged with a misdemeanor, so it seems officials themselves weren't all that seriuous about the "mandatory" nature of the evacuation order (despite what was stated publicly, obviously).

no, to cherry pick the evac order is to decide what is a sensible inconvenience for YOU, without consideration of OTHERS who will be put at risk based on your selfish approach.

if one doesnt like evacuation orders, which seek to consider what is best for ALL who will be exposed to flood dangers, buy/live on high ground.

And that no one got hurt or prosecuted this time around, based on the selfish behavior of some, is anything but the point.

oh, this thread is still going on.
gator and polisson stayed home and they say they are O.K. with it.
That's that.

I can now use thread-space for the story of The RAL Free Parking-Space Deal, Available To Females Only.
It really is the best RAL story I've ever heard. Doesn't even include me in it.
Heard it from the mafioso contractor.

angray would be very entertained.

Now, for a musical interlude: The Pink Panther theme:

da da da DUM
da dum
da da da da da dum
da da da DUMMMMMMMM......

yikes, your statements (e.g., "who will be put at risk") are inaccurate or deserve more careful wording. Who exactly was put in what kind of risk by people staying at BBP?

Arguably, taking to the roads and using scarce resources during a disaster (shelter space, hotel rooms, public transit, gasoline, road / bridge capacity) would have been selfish behavior in this case, as it would have negatively impacted those truly in need of those resources while staying at BBP did not.

That's right.
gator and polisson hunkered down.
That building isn't directly on the Ocean, as is Atlantic Beach, the Rockaways, Coney Island, Breezy Point
and other places.

Having said that: You can bet that RAL headed for the hills. Left his building on lower Broadway to fend for itself.
He's a wimp.

"Where to and how are people supposed to evacuaete, specially those without nearby relatives or cars?"

I read about this happening in new Orleans. An order to evacuate, with no means of evacuation provided. And they wonder why people stayed in their homes!

to those who refused to evac 1 bpp:

the judgement of our emergency responders and our government was that, in case of serious danger, people at 1 bbp evacuate. apparently you think you know better. were this about whether you choose to smoke or not, i'd say do as you wish.

In this case it's not just immediately about you. there are others (first-responders, rescuers, duh) you put at risk by not evacuating. luckily, for you and those you forced to be party to your refusal to comply with evacuation order, no one was injured or killed. if, next time, people die or are seriously injured based on your self-serving better "judgement", that will be on you, and prosecution would sensibly be aggressive.

if you own at 1bbp, expect to be subject to evac orders from time to time. if you wont be willing to comply, live/buy elsewhere. and if you can afford to live at 1bbp, dont whine that the govt must provide you alternative housing, while you sit out the storm.

First responders? The water never reached the front door. Residents could have walked out if they needed to. It'd actually cause undue stress on the over-crowded shelters.

to be proven wrong, you'll need to be party to death/injury of people other than yourself. id rather those people not be killed/injured, so i hope you keeping getting away with your arrogance.

Next time, days before the hurricane they can go across the bridge to RAL's building, demand the use of his "five or six" cars (RAL doesn't know how many cars he owns, according to his puff-ball Real Deal interview) and drive to RAL's Conn. house.
Then they can squat there in luxury while RAL figures out where to go because he has no friends left to take him in for the duration.

The "it was habitable... there just wasn't any water" logic is ridiculously funny.

Gator has shown is slant for quite some time...

Showers and restrooms in the building (staff locker room and gym) were available for use on Oct 31.

yikes, I would never, ever put a first responder at risk. I know many first responders and several are friends. I have too much respect for them to ever put them in harm's way.

You simply do not understand that all Zone A areas are not the same. Polisson is absolutely correct in stating "Zone A designation is based on proximity to the water and / or elevation. It does not distinguish according to the type of building. It may actually be dangerous to remain in a one-family house not constructed for this kind of weather, but in a building designed to withstand winds much higher than those brought by Sandy, evacuating or not may come down to a matter of convenience."

The topography of the land around OBBP is fundamentally different than coastal areas in south Brooklyn and along the NJ shore or the south shore of Long Island. Unlike the land around OBBP, in so many of those areas once water comes in much of it is trapped as the tide goes out and the streets remain inundated with water and very dangerous. At OBBP, due to the topography of the land, all the water that comes in with the surge leaves as as the tide goes out (except for that trapped in the basement). Also, people need to be rescued from single family homes and low rises because they are put at risk of drowning from high flood waters (which is why they are often rescued from second floors or roofs) or because fire fighters can't reach the building due to flooded streets. There is no such risk at OBBP.

SWE, your slant is just as clear but at least I've always been up front with mine (though I don't think my opinions are slanted as I work hard to remain objective). You've been proven wrong on almost everything you predicted about OBBP. And as usual you misinterpret what is said. There was no plumbed water in the units but there certainly was water in the building. Again, the building provided Poland Spring water for drinking and cooking, showers and restrooms were made available, and most every resident who stayed filled their tubs to have water available to operate toilets, etc. Frankly, under these circumstances an argument that a building is not habitable is specious.

For all those families at OBBP with babies, toddlers, and young children (of which there are many), I very much doubt they found the conditions at OBBP 'habitable', no matter what your technical definition of the word is.

button-down, have you spoken to a single one of them? I've spoken to many of my neighbors and while they found it understandably inconvenient and challenging at times, they all found the building habitable. Many had options to stay with family or friends, but decided to stay in their units as the inconvenience was manageable. If anyone's definition of habitable is technical, it is yours.

I could show you many emails from residents to the management company expressing their appreciation and thanks for how well the situation was handled and how much was done to make a challenging situation much less so. The residents remarked about how much they appreciated living at OBBP with such a terrific staff. Not everyone is as sensitive as you and don't wilt at every challenge.

Yes, I have ... a few including my extended family who live at OBBP. They have two babies and so had to move out because they felt the conditions were 'unihabitable' with young infants to care for. If I were in their situation, I would certainly be sensitive to the health and well being of my babies.

I am sure you have not spoken to all but a very small fraction of your neighbors; this may constitute 'many' in your opinion but may be you should try a more extensive sampling of residents to have more confidence in your statements.

And yes, I have seen post-Sandy notes from emergency condo board meetings and consequential e-mails to residents describing the 'catastrophic' situation at OBBP.

button_down, trust me (though I'm sure you won't) you have no idea of the access I have to residents and how many I have spoken to. I know the definition of "many" and it has been MANY.

As for your extended family with young children, I certainly respect, even if I disagree with, their opinion that the condition were "uninhabitable." I also know that many families with young children in the building were of the opinion that OBBP was absolutely habitable after the storm.

And if you have seen the post-Sandy emails to residents then you know that any use of the word catastrophic was in relation to the damage sustained to the buildings physical plant, not the living conditions, which is what I presume you were implying by your oblique reference to the catastophic "situation" at OBBP. Neither the condo board or the management company ever referred to the living conditions at OBBP as catastrophic or the building as uninhabitable. Indeed, NYC has never determined OBBP to be uninhabitable unlike other buildings that sustained extensive damage.

So, when RAL was living in L.I. and had his office out there:
His female tenant needed a parking space in the office building's parking lot.
RAL offered her a "free parking space deal", if she would exchange said parking space for having sex with RAL.

She must have really needed that parking space. So, she just closed her eyes and thought of the free parking space.

When the female tenant found a young boyfriend, he would visit her at her office and use the parking space.
This made RAL angry because, I guess he assumed that she actually enjoyed having sex with him.
He also forgot that Mrs. RAL was living in their home a few miles away.

RAL gave the female tenant some bad attitude over her young boyfriend, who was 30 years younger than RAL and was a strong handsome young man.

One day, the tenant's boyfriend heard about RAL's attitude.
The boyfriend drove to the office and waited in the parking lot for RAL to arrive.

RAL arrived, got out of his car and the boyfriend approached to confront RAL.
RAL took off running.
He couldn't make it to the door of the building to get inside to his office.
Round and round, the boyfriend chased RAL around his own property.

RAL finally got a chance to run inside, where he locked himself in a vacant office.
He called his friend, the mafioso contractor to rescue him.
The mafioso contractor finally showed up and talked the irate boyfriend out of kicking RAL's ass.

The tenant's lease was going to be up in a few months and the mafioso friend told the boyfriend to park in the space whenever he wanted, until the female tenant moved her office out of RAL's building.
This continued to irritate RAL but was better than getting his ass kicked.

I wrote and produced a short video of the "Free Parking Space" episode.
It starts with RAL giving the female tenant shit about her boyfriend.
Next scene is RAL driving into the parking lot, while the boyfriend is waiting for him.
As RAL spots the boyfriend approaching, I set the scene's audio to "Le Freak", by Nile Rogers.
When RAL starts to run, and then is hiding in the vacant office; I overdubbed the scene to "No Way Out", by the Allman Brothers.

"Well there's one way out,
just can't go out that door
there's one way out,
just can't go out that door
There's a man down there
must be your man --
I don't know..."

One day when I have time I'm going to write some more about the cowardly RAL and set the scenes to more great music.
That episode and my short video of it has been hailed as a masterpiece by those who have seen it.

I may send a DVD of it to Mrs.RAL.
It shouldn't bother her too much, as she's aware of RAL's infidelities.
She doesn't seem to care as long as he continues to buy her jewelry and they continue to pretend that they are blissfully wed.
She's an enabler.
She actually called me on the phone once and left a message on my answering machine, while I was sitting there with a newspaper columnist.
I let her ramble on, it was too good to pick up the phone and stop her from making a fool of herself.

button-down, I apologize for the tone of my last couple of posts responding to yours. I confused you with buybye.

I am curious about your decision to reconsider buying at OBBP. Sandy clearly showed that almost no area in the tri-sate area is immune from a storm like Sandy, which some have referred to not as a 100-year storm but a 1,000 year storm, whether on high ground or low. I can tell you that OBBP is already looking into and will almost certainly implement additional measures to protect its physical plant in the event there is another Sandy.

" I confused you with buybye."

Oh, gator that's a lol!

now we know Truth was the boyfriend of RAL's female tenant

Thanks for the note gatornyc ... my main reason for reconsideration of buying at OBBP is three-fold:

1. The consequential cost effects of Sandy on OBBP monthlies remain to be quantified, and thus, this is enough to make me pause and see how all this falls out in the wash
2. The potential future increases in property values of OBBP could well be thwarted by this storm, if not decrease. The desirability to be this close to the waters edge is now a general point of discussion for New Yorkers, especially for buildings in Zone A, and moreover, for a building such as OBBP which is so close to the waters edge. I think it is inevitable that demand for such a locale will decrease for this reason, potentially not making OBBP such a good investment for my money ... but may be memories are short?
3. I am happy the building is already evaluating what additional measures to implement to protect the physical plant and any other infrastructure ... but at what cost will this come to the owners? Even though the probabiliity of such storms hitting NY is relatively low, it is also predicted by weather experts that we should expect to see more of these weater patterns. It make me nervous to think of a 20 foot surge instead of a 14 foot surge coming towards the building and all the havoc it could cause to life at OBBP. I acknoweldge this needs to be a personal benefit-risk balance to each individual buying at OBBP, but almost surely more people will now net out on the negative side of this as opposed to prior to Sandy. This is evidenced by the fact that a few units that had contracts out prior to Sandy have already been lost since the storm (could also be for other reasons but it is worth watching what happens with sales/contracts over the coming weeks)

>caonima - you are so insane if you think that Truth is a guy. Way off.

Though I do wonder why she (Truth) thinks it's a good thing to film the results of a a woman prostituting herself for a parking space.

In other worlds it was the "casting couch" - but a parking space?

Obviously RAL (never heard of him before) is a total sleaze, but she slept with him to get a PARKING SPACE????
She seems as sleazy as he is.

I filmed the "RAL Free Parking Space Deal --Available for Females Only" because it is a good representation of
RAL's arrogance. It's also very funny.

Out in L.I. the office buildings have their own parking lots as there aren't secure places to park nearby.
The female tenant needed a space which wasn't available until RAL heard that she was asking.
Then RAL freed-up one of the extra spaces he keeps in the lot.
That the female took him up on the "Free" deal was her own choice.
The fun started when the female tenant's boyfriend became irate over RAL's treatment of the girlfriend.
She didn't sign up for a lifetime arrangement to provide RAL with sex in exchange for the space.

But the sight of non-athletic RAL running for his life, his bespoke suit-jacket flapping, slipping and sliding in his fancy shoes, trying to make it to the door of the building while being chased around the parking lot by the boyfriend is hilarious.
When he got the chance to run into the building, he had to hide out in an vacant office and call the mafioso
contractor friend to rescue him. That took a while and RAL was shitting himself until the mafioso guy arrived. He didn't emerge from the vacant office until the mafioso contractor called him to tell him it was safe. "One Way Out" is a song of good length with an instrumental. I edited the chase scene perfectly to match the music.
Even to those who don't know him and have never met him, the video is funny, creative and well produced.

button_down seems to be well-informed of the current state-of-affairs at OBBP.
Why shouldn't button_down take time to see how things turn out at OBBP before reconsidering making a purchase there?
No need to rush.

ok, then Truth is the female tenant or the daughter of the female tenant?

or more dramatically, Truth is PAL's ANOTHER female tenant, that also explains Truth's furry, as very similar to what we see in the CIA head/general Betray_us case

caonima:
I'm not the guy who chased RAL around the parking lot.

I'm the person who saw an article in the newspaper about the Attorney General's Office ruling that RAL pay one million dollars in restitution to the owners of Franklin Tower.
When I asked RAL :
"You didn't install sufficient fire-proofing in that building?!"
RAL replied: "Eh, they didn't have a fire there, anyway."

After that, the leaking a/c system, leaking windows, bricks falling off the facade and the other violations were just part and parcel of RAL's building conversion corner-cutting.

Then I found out that RAL forged an pre-inspection document that was supposed to be signed by the mafioso contractor. The mafioso contractor was hospitalized being treated for(real)cancer, and RAL took the opportunity to speed things up and forge the signature so he could say the building construction was "Completed".

How he did that was not funny and therefore would not make a good topic for a video.

RAL would never be confused with anybody's PAL, caonima.

I was never RAL's tenant.

I'm not furry at all.
However, RAL is the furriest man you will ever see.

if you own at 1bbp, expect to be subject to evac orders from time to time. if you wont be willing to comply, live/buy elsewhere.

damn, i thought i had discovered another Betray_us like case........

A wise quote from a friend with a waterfront home; "If you own a home on the water, expect to get your feet wet occasionally".

I heard from a friend that lives at 37 Bridge that no significant damage to the building or their apartment. Some good news in DUMBO.

"I heard from a friend that lives at 37 Bridge that no significant damage to the building or their apartment. Some good news in DUMBO."

Doesn't mean their insurance premiums won't go way up and lenders will require additional coverage.

Well I think if the insurance premiums go up on these large buildings the actual exposure to each unit owner will not be catastrophic. I own a home in Florida near the water, I know from Insurance premiums going up. But we are not moving further West...we deal with it.

yikes is going to be appointed as: "Evacuation Czar".

KeithB will be appointed: "Hurricane Zen Master General"