Park Avenue on Sale

Nice unit, excellent floor plan. I wonder if this is an estate sale? A few things on the shelves and walls I wouldn't mind bidding on should they show up at Doyle...

Other than the kitchen, it's close enough to my taste that I could move in with almost no changes. Love the floors, and if it's a bit much, there's nothing there that a good large antique carpet couldn't soften. It looks to have been expensively and well done, and is very restrained compared to the other unit currently on offer (11). I'd keep the layout as is, and use the DR as a combo library/DR, though I love scenic wallpapers, so covering the DR with bookcases would pain me a bit. Combining the LR & MBR leaves you with a bathroom door opening right into the LR, which isn't very elegant, but given what 4B has done, there appear to be options for moving things around. I'm sure the next owner will strip it to the studs and paint everything in some expensive custom color ("hedgie's wife creamy white", perhaps). Sigh.

I could live mostly as it is - possibly remove those fake marble columns in the dining area.

Master bath entry could be where the sink it if one want to merge current master into living room for more light and better utilization of the entry lobby a part of which would get merged with new living room. Typically easy change for the bathroom entry.

Back of this apartment is really dark with not much distance from the building behind it. Hence more light into the living area.

Get rid of the tacky low-to-mid-level 'art' and finishes (the marble columns and painted floors are nauseating) and this could be a beautiful classic prewar. The junky furnishings unfortunately get in the way but I imagine someone with a good eye will see the potential and scoop it up. Low floor definitely hurts but isn't necessarily a deal-breaker for someone wanting a Park Ave address.

Also--lose the recessed lights in the living room. Raise that ceiling back to where it should be.

While we aren't moving, if this place were to be on 85-90th street, I would consider buying it but I suspect price would have been higher. You can probably buy this one $250k lower. This really just needs clean up and selected updates / reconfig to my liking (call it $300k). Floors can be lightly sanded, dark areas bleached and whole floor restained in some areas. I see some AC vents as well, not sure if I recognize them correctly. It is indeed a low floor looking at an uninteresting building.

Of couse, some one dying for Park Avenue address can buy this. No other issue except looking at brick walls and barely any natural light.

https://streeteasy.com/building/1060-park-avenue-new_york/3ab?from_map=1&utm_campaign=sale_listing&utm_medium=share&utm_source=web&lstt=OQbw8TogE1cCOrDhX0_UJ01cFjutXrwi-rN-Lktz3aWtdiblg7OB7uHrI_xIunyG2cOq2yvve6rptbzz

Or upgrade to this vs 1060 Park. I am sure the buyer can negotiate $200-300k renovation credit.

https://streeteasy.com/building/1105-park-avenue-new_york/3d?utm_campaign=sale_listing&utm_medium=share&utm_source=web&lstt=5svk8Kvl_cNLA6IAKCBCx19j50uStogPqUsUtvqRWc5icmSjz9kan-zkwzu8dJgh7s_FO-vo-dddcnn3

@300: Agree. I often walk by this building. While the LR and all BR face on to 58th St, there are two good-sized uninteresting buildings across the street to block some of the light, though you'll get a sliver of daylight in the afteroon, since the unit is almost on the corner of Park and the building cattycorner SW isn't terribly tall). But the kitchen, 'office', and DR face into a small light well, enclosed on 2 sides by tall black glass towers.

@pinecone: yes, unfortunate about dropping the ceilings and putting in the "ceiling acne (as George Izenour called it), but they had to put the AC ducts somewhere - HVAC design subsequently changed, and now could probably be done by sacrificing only the kitchen and entry hall ceiling heights, or not at all if the board will permit through-the-wall systems below the windows (which appear on upper floors).

Is this a high first floor, slightly above street?

Never mind, I found a photo -

Some years back I lived temporarily on Park on the 6th floor and could hear a slight rumble from the train below. What would the noise be like that much lower?

Wouldn't it depends on where you are on Park Avenue and which train is close to you?

Metro North runs under Park avenue its entire length until grand central station. When the subway from Queens crosses Park avenue it goes underneath the Metro North tracks

Thank you Value. I hadn't thought of Metro North, just subway.

I love literally everything about this one. Location and size is a dream. Maintenance is manageable for the size. Financing up to 50% is rough though and imagine getting approved would be really, really hard.

notice that there is a large monthly assessment, and because it it a full service building with only 21 apartments , it will frequently have large multi year assessments . Also, living one floor up from the lobby means that, if you face the back, the apartment is dark, if you face the front there is no privacy unless the shades are down. That is why it to sell such an apartment , you need a large discount of what the price would be on a higher floor.

Value, This one faces the side street not Park Avenue. What in your opinion will be the price difference vs one floor higher. I don't think privacy is all that different as you will still be looking at another building. Also, how do think of Townhouse premium despite parlor floor just above the street level? And all glass building low floor privacy?

Just look at what 7B and 9B sold for and you will see that the current asking price represents a large discount from what the same apartment on a high floor would sell for. Town houses are different. If the town house faces another row of town houses and has a town house behind it , it will sell for a lot more than if it faces an apartment building and has an apartment building behind it.

This makes sense.

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Town houses are different. If the town house faces another row of town houses and has a town house behind it , it will sell for a lot more than if it faces an apartment building and has an apartment building behind it.

- notice that there is a large monthly assessment, and because it it a full service building with only 21 apartments it will frequently have large multi year assessments.
A diligence item for sure, but still monthly cost comparable with some slightly smaller apartments in my current coop

Also, living one floor up from the lobby means that, if you face the back, the apartment is dark, if you face the front there is no privacy unless the shades are down. That is why it to sell such an apartment , you need a large discount of what the price would be on a higher floor.
- a trade off I am okay with, I am already on a low floor right above lobby elsewhere

This discount seems significantly larger than what I was able to get when I purchased my current apartment.

My principal complaint about the unit (other than that pitch black kitchen window) is that the main rooms principally overlook 58th St., which is, along with 59th, crazy with traffic at many hours heading toward the Queensboro bridge. Nothing that some expensive new windows couldn't fix, but it can be noisy. (maybe less, after congestion pricing?)

The apartment is the floor above street level, and privacy is no better/worse than any other 2nd floor apartment - possibly better as 58th slopes slightly downhill from Park right there, so you're a couple feet higher than you might be otherwise.
If you can't walk by, Google maps is your friend: https://www.google.com/maps/place/485+Park+Ave,+New+York,+NY+10022/@40.7621937,-73.9700299,3a,75y,64.81h,78.53t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sO2QEq_ZlEI0i1Mv9j86vkw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D11.467989160193568%26panoid%3DO2QEq_ZlEI0i1Mv9j86vkw%26yaw%3D64.80742979998283!7i16384!8i8192!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c258e567d62dc7:0xee8ff171749180a5!8m2!3d40.7622996!4d-73.9698344!16s%2Fg%2F11bw410fch?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDgyNC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Anyone have an idea why this listing is on the market so long? Seems fairly priced (assuming the "temporary" assessment ends in 2 months as they say)?

https://streeteasy.com/building/1105-park-avenue-new_york/3d?utm_campaign=sale_listing&utm_medium=share&utm_source=web&lstt=5svk8Kvl_cNLA6IAKCBCx19j50uStogPqUsUtvqRWc5icmSjz9kan-zkwzu8dJgh7s_FO-vo-dddcnn3

Are you familiar with where the windows look? Basically light-well around 25-30 feet in size till you hit brick wall. Do Google sattelite view. I am guessing they will take $200k lower if the board approves the price. I don't think a bad deal $200k lower if your plan is to do basic reno without any layout changes.

From what I can tell, it may only be 20-25 feet. 6D will clear the building on the east.

Ah. Even 6D doesn't see to clear the building on the east.
https://streeteasy.com/building/1105-park-avenue-new_york/6d?utm_campaign=sale_listing&utm_medium=share&utm_source=web&lstt=22eb18DQMim7oUJY6eIS3o5nfx2TU7rP1BsfHVulYM73dtG8N_ZZ5Vl01VbMOFtfwTD61JAQZYQQA3P6

The broker listing has 'ESTATE SALE CONDITION' in all caps, and a note that the photos have been doctored, so that's a good sized red flag -- it's likely that a major renovation will be needed -- Is 3D a bargain at $1.5m if you need to put another $500k into it? Also, that assessment warrants a good look at several years of building finances, or personal finances that can absorb assessments that are ~25% of maintenance (already high-ish). That said, it's a terrific floor plan as is (I might sacrifice the office bathroom for W/D space, and put in a little bar/pantry where the current W/D is). Even though limited/no views, every room, including the kitchen and bathrooms, has a window, something which is becoming vanishingly rare.

Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking of knocking down Dining/Living wall to get more light into bigger room. Seems from the dining room there might be more light. Thoughts?

Aaron,

If you don't care about the brick wall, it is indeed very good value with obvious compromise. I don't think 3D is bargain at current price but can be $200k lower with $400k reno without moving much of anything and nothing fancy besides may be a fridge.

Dogcat,
You have to go see it to make that decision. My gut is not much is going to change in terms of light and brick wall.

Here is another issue with 3D and many other lower floor apartments. Coop share allocation doesn't reflect enough of the lower value of the unit vs higher floor apartments.

@300: Agree about the views/light. It's always a red flag for me when every single light in an apartment is on for the photo shoot. It's a 'see it and decide for yourself' issue. And the point about share allocation is very valid: Do I get to pay less becuase I have a 'lesser' apartment than somebody on a higher floor? In 1105, the C line is the only one with windows that don't face the street or ave - although in all units, the DRs and kitchens face the light wells. E 89th is in the historic district, so it's unlikely a supertall is going up at 107 or 109 E 89, which would be a disaster for the C line.

@dogcat: I don't think losing that bit of wall between the LR & DR will change the light much. And you'll end up with a mishapen living room and unbalanced windows. And the neighbors' brick walls aren't going anywhere -- it's up to you to decide how much time you'll be looking out the window, or basking in the sunlight. At least there are other units in the building with a/c units installed below the windows, so it's likely the board would permit that modification, particularly at the 'back' of the building, so you won't lose more light because of in-window units -- but installing those can get pricey (brick work, sleeves, potentially scaffolding, etc.)

Well it seems there is a signed contract for 1105 so this is moot. Great layout and location though.

When the % of maintenance going to real estate taxes was smaller vs the other costs, I think allocation was still reasonable as you used the services (heat, doormen, super etc) as per sq footage except may be facade work where the cost is higher for higher floors. But with taxes becoming higher proportion of maintenace, 3D should be at least 15% discount to 6D. Current condo law addresses it by allocating shares of the building as per the initial price.

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And the point about share allocation is very valid: Do I get to pay less becuase I have a 'lesser' apartment than somebody on a higher floor?

Good point. Thanks. While we're at it.... thoughts on these?

https://streeteasy.com/building/120-east-79-street-new_york/14c

https://streeteasy.com/building/970-park-avenue-new_york/8n

https://streeteasy.com/building/993-park-avenue-new_york/4c

Dogcat, good locations but I am not impressed with these apartments for the price. Way too expensive.

Thanks. I hear ya. I have a constraint to be west of Lex on UES and inventory has been dry for a long time. Rent just got increased 35% so will buy for same $.

Dogcat, Where does the rent increase put your $ budget for buying for how many bedrooms and bathrooms? What percentage down are you assuming? The three you posted aren't really comparable.

>>>I have a constraint to be west of Lex on UES

What is driving this constraint? We had a whole thread on how UES is not in vogue, so curious to hear the other side.

>>>Rent just got increased 35% so will buy for same $.

Really? I thought mortgages were at 6% and cap rates were like 3%, roughly, so how could you buy for the same $$$? Curious to hear how you did this math :-) Maybe the cap rates are higher than 3% now?

Krolik, Not that many rentals west of Lex on UES. So cap rate calcs are hard. That area could be 3.5 cap at $1.5-$2mm price point. In addition, people only pay mortgage on say 60-65% of the purchase price if you are looking at West of Lex coop.

@300 so you are saying there is an impression of affordability because people don't consider the opportunity cost on their down payment capital? 3.5% cap is still super low compared to 6% mortgage.....

Yes. As for that opportunit cost, you may have a price gain on sale, protect yourself partially against inflation etc, not being forced to move etc; and that gain has not materialized in Manhattan for a while except for may be some areas downtown.

Krolik, What cap rate do you get for this? Call it $12k rent and $2.1mm sale price. Total monthlies including assessments and insurance etc $4.2k

https://streeteasy.com/building/park-avenue-court/sale/1775442?utm_campaign=sale_listing&utm_medium=share&utm_source=web&lstt=A-e7UB3V7I2MdyBei93deMjYlLojuJ-gYdbes1UEAV1AYzBniEJShEDY9BPPLNSoEVNrJInd03-Ge-Km

https://streeteasy.com/building/park-avenue-court/rental/4844806?utm_campaign=rental_listing&utm_medium=share&utm_source=web&lstt=jQgsjgzLiRAIkUNu44kMy1wzMPnuOTB63kSloIszbcQSodSpLIDeg7EVo5C-DWGVx4qkNXYRas4toeH9

Coming close to 4% depending on what discount assumptions you use for rent and sale price. I think the listing price is a little aspirational. Call it 1200 sqft factoring in some of the loft space. $1.85 will make it a very good deal. But I suspect it will trade at $2mm.

>>>Rent just got increased 35% so will buy for same $.

>> Really? I thought mortgages were at 6% and cap rates were like 3%, roughly, so how could you buy for the same $$$? Curious to hear how you did this math :-) Maybe the cap rates are higher than 3%
now?

If the rent has increased 35% and the sale price has not changed, then the cap rate will be greatly improved. it really depends on the time frame of the 35% rent increase and how the mortgage rate change during the same time frame. But the relentless rent increase and little change in the sale price definitely pushes more people towards buying than renting .

>>Krolik, What cap rate do you get for this? Call it $12k rent and $2.1mm sale price. Total monthlies including assessments and insurance etc $4.2k

A simple calculation for the cap rate will be (12-4.2)*12/2100*100=4.5%, quite good cap for buying to live in. The cap rate will be worse for investor due money loss with the tenant turn over, etc. From the listing, the tax is 1.5K and the common change 1.7K, and you think about total monthlies of 4.2K, leaves about 1.0k for the assessment and insurance, which is quite generous I guess it's building dependent, for the close to 1million coop apartment that I had in Queens, I only paid less than 1k for the insurance for the whole year, which is on top of the building insurance paid by the monthly common charge. I had one assessment for the last four years, about $7K.

For this apartment, the key question is that if it can really rent for $12k, reading the past rent history, it can only rent for close to $10K, unless the rent has increased a lot for the past year for this segment of housing. I won't count on the $12k rent.

Woodside, Overtime, I think $4.2k including repairs etc is reasonable estimate and Manhattan the facade assessments are just must higher that Queens.

On rent probably 11k. It does function as a third bedroom for a child and two if the parents wants to take second bedroom as an office for themselves. I am guessing they got more rent than what they asked last time and now the owners are paying the broker as per the rule change. $132,000 - $50k = $82k / $2.1mm. Still pushing close to 4%.

Btw, insurance cost per sq ft much higher in Manhattan vs Queens as insurance company estimate renovation costs to be much higher in Manhattan and they indeed are.

With increased rent to 10.1k/mo., 4k main/tax, 6% mortgage, and not opp cost (I am very conservative investor so I net 3% returns) my buy/rent model flips to purchasing with a 10yr hold. I can purchase and monthly cost < rent.

Also, this hedges inflation future rent increases

Dogcat, What would you pay for this Park Avenue Court apartment to rent and to buy?

No thoughts on the price, but I like that 970 Park 8N. That is the only one linked in this thread that would tempt me were I looking.

@krolik - If I recall correctly, dogcat has children in the vicinity, plus a dog for which proximity to the park will command a premium that I think is hard for non-dog-lovers to understand.

@300 - my rent is now > 10k/mo. I'd rather buy with 0% appreciation for the same $ versus perpetual rent increases.

@multicity - that is my number 1 also.

@Krolk - You are correct. Good memory!

I agree w/ mcr: 8N is the best layout of the 3 (but not without concerns).

What concerns other than price?

dogcat, I much prefer the Park Avenue court as long you as don't mind some space in form of loft bedroom. 14 foot ceilings as well and no brain damage of coop interview. Clearly very different apartments. Yes it is a little smaller. Hard to comment on the view without seeing it in person vs 8N.

Biggest flaw with 8N is tiny bathrooms and kitchen squeezed into a corner even though one can open it up. Then you are stuck with the infrastructure of a very old building with centra ac etc.

Then there is question of where the washer dryer will go in 8N and trouble to put it in.

Clearly this one has dining room which one could convert to a bedroom, if needed, vs the extra loft space / bedroom in Park Avenue Court.

@300 - Thanks for insights I didn’t think about (yet) on 8N. Where would a W/D go?? I viewed it today. Really great apt with super high ceilings and light. Layout is definitely not perfect. You have a good eye!

PAC is a bit close to 86th st/Lex for me tbh. Condo is very appealing with renting optionality. Monthly charges don't seem that high either.

I hear you about PAC. Even though the building entrance street is generally clear but there are clearly some undesirable elements close by and the street is higher foor traffic. I hope you can negotiate a good discount on 8N. At least they are 25% down payment coop (suggesting easier board) which is unusual for Park Ave pre-war.