the hunt for a 2 bed apt continues

updated parameters:

price: $1.25M
maintenance: under $2200
size: around 1000 sq feet would be ideal, open to 900ish
baths: 1.5+ is ideal
layout: we dont mind making a 2nd bedroom out of a 1 bedroom but it needs to have a window and be bigger than 8x8, so it could be a decent nursery / bedroom. it would be ideal to not sacrifice a dining room / big living room for the bedroom though.
location: open to UES (50th-80th ideally, lex to 2nd) UWS (more open); just dont want to be on Riverside or West End or CPW or Park Ave or 5th Ave-- call it odd, but after growing up on Park Ave and not liking it, I like to be in close proximity to bodegas / nail salons / dry cleaners / coffee shops. my husband cares most about proximity to train (we ruled out Sutton place after a brief obsession with it for this reason)
Floor: we'd prefer between 3rd floor and 12th floor, but are open. Quiet is ideal, so maybe higher could be ok.
Type: we're open to co-op or condo. needs to have a doorman, elevator, and ideally be somewhat updated. We would prefer POST war buildings with air conditioning that is set through wall already.
Financials: up to 50% down is ok, though we'd rather <40%
Other: No pets. would *love* a washer / dryer; outdoor space like a roof deck or patio is ideal, gym / pool / garage would be cool but not needed. light is important to me. I tend to prefer apts with windows on more than 1 side.

Load you parameters, which are relatively specific, into the search engine. Every possible property defined will appear in a list almost magically. You can have this very site email you every time an apartment meeting your criteria comes on to the market. First, review every property on your initial search and save each individual listing that appeals to you. Start visiting them in the most efficient means possible. Make sure you are at the first open house of every new property that meets you criteria. Get your ducks in a row NOW. Have you act together to the point that if you locate the magic property you will be ready to put a bid in on that property that very day. That means you have to have a relationship with a RE agent who knows your deal and is ready for immediate action. The apartment you're looking for is relatively rare and is hunted by many. You would be lucky to find it first, Make an aggressive bid and have your RE agent rush the seller for a fast answer. Once you have the eye, you'll know it when you see it. The key is to lock it down before the 500 other buyers with your exact same criteria get a crack at it. My buddy in RE tells me that the "real" buyers always show up at the first open house, they're usually the first through the door, they never ask stupid questions. Nobody on SE can help you find you apartment, only you can do that.

yep, falcogold, I'm aware of how SE works, search often, have a great agent and know the process.

We're bidding on 160 e 65 apt 23E but given the timing and how many offers there are, there's a strong chance our hunt will continue. Of course no one on SE will find an apt for us-- I'm well aware of that; but this thread was built to track our search given that we've gotten great guidance and insight along the way so far.

It's that extra half-bath that's the killer. There are plenty of Jr. 4s with one bath that fit your criteria, but you want another bathroom and it feels like that bumps the price ~ $400K.

Anyway, not your preferred nabe but I kind of like the combo at 288 Lex for you.

ali

Ali, that's it exactly.

Post-wars junior-4s tend to have just one bath. The fancier ones when built had another half-bath, but those almost all have the full bath ensuite with the bedroom. E.g., E & F and the below-7th-floor Bs at 160 E 65th.

Too bad the two Cs at pre-war 439 E 51st don't work. Huge LR, FP, separate dining, two real bedrooms already, but no view and just one bath. Intended for rich couples who needed an occasional spare room, I guess.

looks like 160 e 65 apt 23E might happen. seems to solve the 1.5 bath + washer dryer issue.

you should check out John Adams building. They have decent sized junior 4s. see before and after conversions.
http://streeteasy.com/sale/947260
http://streeteasy.com/sale/1059965

That conversion in John Adams is beautiful.

great inspiration from the John Adams building. We've made it pretty far into 160 e 65, apt 23E and it looks promising.
The seller's broker wants to meet us, so we're going back there tonight.

We're now wondering whether we'd be better off putting the wall up before moving in or waiting til we need it for a baby's nursery. Also wondering about putting in new floors. I guess I can put this in renovations just wondering if anyone had any thoughts?

Keeping fingers crossed for you re 23e. Question re floor is taste-specific; floor looks like it is in good shape, but if you don't like parquet, you would not be alone. As to putting up wall now or later, I am a fan of doing all renovations you know you will want at some point prior to moving in if they work from budget perspective, but again, that is personal.

I believe many boards do not allow one to erect walls.

why wouldn't the board allow that? if we cant get approved for it, we're out. that's the whole point of this place for us-- making it a 2 br. Several other apartments in the line have converted into 2 bedrooms so I'd be shocked if that or the washer dryer is a problem.

I'm reposting my opinion of 23E from the orphaned thread (w/ minor edits). While you appear to be set on 23E, I think you'll be unhappy given your proposed changes:

Pros: 1) Decent amount of space for a 1BR.
2) Windowed kitchen.
3) Pretty good views, though if you wall off the dining area, you lose the best of it.
4) Building tower's setback from street (as well as neighboring buildings') open up and improve views up/down avenue and side streets.
Cons: 1) Kitchen and finishes are dated and will need replacing.
2) If you're dying for a 2BR, the alcove dining area would not make a good bedroom -- too narrow, and proportionally too much wall devoted to windows (though it does have it's own air handler). (too hot in the summer, too cold in the winter, and to effectively control it you'll need to add a separate thermostat, particularly for an infant's room)
3) Based on the floorplan shown, the half bath looks and feels like it's part of the kitchen, not a hallway. I'd prefer some separation. (compare with the 26F floorplan, which, to me, is a better layout).
4) Door to the full bath would make more sense opening onto the BR, not the front hallway. Of course, if you want to convert the alcove to a BR for anybody other than an infant or an intimate friend, it has to be off the hall.

I believe this is a law passed by the NYC. Building Dept., google it

Why would the board approve someone who needs to put up a wall?

A few things about the board and the wall. For starters, if you are attempting to convert a one bedroom to a two bedroom it can (not always) trigger a need for a building department inspection. Now it is not hard to just go ahead and do it anyway and if the DOB does not find out about it then it makes no difference. But the DOB has the right to stop you based on occupancy rules for the apartment and for the building itself. Two separate concerns related to the C of O. Still, in order to get workmen in the building to do the work you are going to need to tell the managing agent. And for a wall to be put up, which technically changes the apartment from a one to a two bedroom, then the board will need to get involved. I can tell you that it is highly unlikely you can get a board to commit upfront, before you purchase, that they will let you make the change. We lived in a very relaxed coop for 10 years and when the time came for us to try and put up a wall, it was so much hassle that we moved. I kid you not. They needed us to hire an architect and the architect said that we did not meet “the minimum requirements for light and air.” Turns out each bedroom has a requirement (leftover law from tenement days when people were forced to live in a dark room with no windows) for light and air access via windows and skylights. So you are taking a big risk by moving into a coop without knowing what your options are. I for one would not take the risk. Again, we moved out because of this very reason. You can always call it a den, or a large walk in closet and that might make it easier but people are not that dumb so the idea is that the board will play ball with you. The question then is how the managing agent or the board will respond to this. It could very well be that you move in and can do whatever you want. But you could also find yourself very limited – and very upset. I have lived in three coops and each one had the most ridiculous rules and nonsense. Our current building would not let us put on a new front door unless it had a certain molding. Despite this two board members put on new doors with no molding at all. This kind of bizarre application of rules is the norm, not the exception in coops. Coop board are made up of people who like to control things and meddle. I cannot reiterate enough how rare it is to see boards that can find the middle ground that is best for everyone. You usually get 1) the wild west –in which case you can expect roaches, leaks and lost mail because nothing is paid attention to. Or 2) you get hard core control freaks that drive you crazy over everything and bury you in rules or you get 3) total inconsistency like you are living in a novel by Kafka. Your best bet would be to buy an apartment with the existing layout you like. If you can get the seller to do the work before you buy it is another option. Make it part of the sale and pay them a small bonus to build the wall for you. Then they shoulder the pain in the butt factor and they do it since you offered them a little extra money. Good luck!

Aaron I appreciated your feedback before. The 2nd bed would be for an infant. We're fine with all that. The agent has explicitly cited several units in the building's same line with washer dryers in the pantry and 2nd bedrooms walled off. I can't imagine we'd have an issue getting it approved. This is all helpful context though

Taxi: Caveat Emptor. The agents are not in full command of the facts. I'm not saying tha they'll tell you anything to get the transaction done, though some on SE will allege that. My poilnt is that even agents with the best intentions do not control the boards and do not dictate the decisions the boards will make. Board members change; reviewing architects change; city regulations change; and priorities change. Unless you get a guarantee from the board prior to purchase, you are assuming this risk.

If you make this purchase you need to be comfortable living in that apartment as a 1BR. Are you?

I have no financial interest in this transaction, but it seems to me that this thread is taking an overly conservative tone, warning someone who (if I read correctly) doesn't even have kids yet that some co-op board in the future is going to kibosh the creation of a bedroom that seems to be within code, in terms of square footage and windows, in a building where other shareholders have made the same renovation.

I am not discounting Guy with Cat's point that boards can be nuts ... I am on my third co-op in the city and I have seen some things ... but at this point you guys are perhaps being a little ominous.

Of course OP, you are assuming a risk, but my advice would be to meet the listing agent, say "we love the building, and we love how the dining space could be a flexible space as we intend to stay here for many years. We are happy to serve on the board if that would help the co-op."

ali r.
{downtown broker}

I concur with Ali

thanks, front_porch & whitedesert. I'm no longer really taking this thread to heart. The listing agent has sold 8 or so apartments in the building and says everyone puts the wall up. She even gave me a company recommendation that she calls the "babywall people" who did a number of other units in the building. Also, it'll be windowed with a closet and large enough for code, so this all seems kind of irrational to me.

What about something like:

http://streeteasy.com/building/233-east-86-street-new_york/19a

The maintenance is a little above your range and the location is 6 streets above what you outlined but something like this more than ticks all your other boxes and 86th street is an express stop.

Just interested in what you make of this property and why you would not choose it (assuming you wouldn't).

Full disclosure: we live in this building in a one bedroom and love the building and location and the 2 bed layouts look great (not to mention the apartment long balconies).

This law by the building dept. is relatively recent. Ask this listing agent who obviously seems to have an interest in this deal if she will sign an agreement attesting to her paying you damages if you can't build the wall.
As for me, I have no interest.

19a at 233 E86th looks great. I cannot think of good answer to Chrism49's question.

"thanks for agreeing to come over and see the new place, and to help with the baby! We'll buy you dinner ... we can sit out on the balcony, and if it rains, we can eat on the piano."

I like 19a at 233 E 86, and we saw it and liked it. The renovation is nicely done. There's very little design-wise I don't like with the floors / kitchen / etc. The main issue for us was the maintenance and the lack of dining room table space. Also my husband is kind of into long / big living rooms. We also want to be further downtown but the express train does help. Long balcony is pretty unique though. We wanted a little more storage and were a little concerned that the smaller bedroom didnt quite allow that. But it made a short list for sure.

Thanks for the comments taxibutton, appreciate your perspective. Good luck with your search, I hope you find what you are looking for!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/realestate/18cov.html

streetsmart, interesting article, although I note it's 5 years old and hasn't seemed to slow the installation of walls as far as I'm aware. Still lots of apartments advertised as "flexible" 1, 2, and 3 bedrooms when they are actually studios, 1 & 2 bedrooms.

The article from streetsmart still applies. I lived in a condo (way past the date of that article) that reviewed all renovation plans. They would not permit walls going up without a building permit. Rentals that had them were forced to tear them down or get a permit. They found one case where a junior 4 was turned into a 3 bedroom rooming house without a living room.

Yes, and the vast majority of walls put up in coops are not temporary, and were put up with permits. The enforcement largely impacts temporary walls that created internal spaces in rentals, often minuscule, and often without windows (hence the fire hazard).

Do they have co-ops in Bburg?

What a stupid comment.

It was a question, not a comment.
But anyway, you seem angry - what is the latest with you?

What a stupid question.

I guess just general anger.

Guessing is just a way of conceding ignorance.

That is true. I can only observe you and guess. I can't be in your mind. Thank goodness.

looks as if this thread has gone off the rails a little. Just for an update, our bid was accepted but we pulled out of this apartment. Seeing apt 24E with the baby room conversion helped but the best light the ng in and out of the building a few times to see it, I rode the elevator with exclusively very old residents and just started to despise the cold lobby and its pretentious tapestry and kind of useless garden back alley. Those plus the need to hire an architect and campaign for the conversion and the selling agent's insistence it would be a non issue but unwillingness to guarantee anything, plus issues over even installing the W/D they talk about in the brokerspeak, made us realize we need to find a place thats already been converted and/or is a true 2 BR. The only full bathroom didn't have a bathtub. The kitchen needed a huge gut job. I just started hating it more and more and felt tremendous relief when we pulled the plug. My husband now is very interested in 288 Lexington (I'm not). I'm actually starting to lean towards selling our alcove 1 br in gramercy first, and maybe upping the budget a little? I'll keep you all posted as we continue looking.

oops, looks like a sentence or so got eaten there re: the best light going to the baby's room and leaving the living room less compelling. Here's 24E for reference. http://streeteasy.com/building/160-east-65-street-new_york/24e

Also: Thanks so much to all who've weighed in here. Especially NYCNovice, NWT & Aaron2 who's points were extremely helpful and provided a much needed reality check against the roller coaster this all can be.

@taxibutton - You strike me as a highly intelligent upwardly mobile young professional or entrepreneur who is likely married to someone like yourself. You may well find your income and savings starting to snowball at this point in your professional life such that if you can hold off for just another year, you might be amazed at how much more you can afford a year from now compared to what you can afford today. I know you don't want to rent, but if you consider selling your current apartment and putting that into diversified portfolio, the snowball will grow that much more quickly. In the interim, you might be amazed at what you can rent. New York is one of the few cities in the United States where it is actually cheaper to rent than buy. When fieldschester mocked you for building credit, he was likely reacting to your statement that your owning over the past eight years has been cheaper than renting. I obviously don't know what your particular numbers are, but it would be exceptional if you were the one person in New York who actually found an apartment that was cheaper to own than rent. I hated renting because I am so picky about my living space (I really care about my wall colors and finishes), but I am guessing that in your stage of life, your purchasing power is going to grow immensely in the next few years such that it might be worth considering. With that said, you are clearly going to make a good decision whatever you decide because you are approaching it with all the right questions and with an open mind, and again, thank you for letting us tag along on your search.

P.S. - I shouldn't be so glib/definitive about the rent vs. own calculation. There are obviously others (like Trulia) who will disagree on rent vs. buy analysis; we each have our own methodology, and in yours, it may actually be cheaper to buy than rent, depending on what costs you can quantify and choose to include, but you are likely to run into more disagreement if you say owning was far less expensive than renting over the past eight years in New York.

trust your agent -- - only if they will sign off on legal document guaranteeing a wall can be built

This might meet your parameters - no idea if it needs renovation but the size and price are good- http://streeteasy.com/building/305-east-40-street-new_york/14d

ph41, whatever happened to that guy from upstate that you always used to feud with?

TB, the maintenance is a little high but otherwise fits your needs. Price was just lowered by 100k. Hope the search is going well: http://streeteasy.com/building/136-east-56-street-new_york/phb

Hello Real Estate NY, yes I know the article is old, but just wanted to show that this issue has been around. And yes apartments are advertised as flex, 2 or 3, and one can still do a separation without erecting a wall. Also using the word flex makes the apt. more desirable. Also sorry to report, but I. I have noticed exaggerations in listings in many areas including square footage. I just saw a listing where it indicated a balcony , but it's a juliet balcony, one can't even put a chair in it. The listing is at 380 Rector Place.

thanks, all. NYC Novice - you've nailed me career wise! :) I work in tech. You may be right about waiting. I'm just not sure we want to hold off so long. I think renting might make sense for now.

re: rent vs buy calculation, my current place was <$2000 for the mortgage + maintenance and there's no way I wouldve found a 1 br in gramercy renting for that. Similar units in my building went for $2800-3000 in 2008, now I've seen them rent for around 3500-4000. So i'm certain I saved $ that way over time. But no point debating.

@taxibutton I have a 2 bedroom in Harlem co-op building not yet on the market. Income restriction asking 630k contact fernando@frankragusa.com

I seriously doubt @taxibutton would meet income restrictions, and even if she does now, I don't think that will be the case for very long. I do not know how those buildings work - are you allowed to stay in even if your income takes off after you buy?

NYCNovice, should you really be speaking for taxibutton?

She wasn't. That would be "taxibutton wouldn't meet income restrictions." More misrepresentation. Maybe yoga or meditation would allow you to find some inner decency.

Bburg, should you really be speaking for NYCNovice?
Do you do yoga? What is your favorite type?

The wheels on the bus...

Bburg, did your wheels come off?

Maybe she had another stroke.

Sorry for being MIA. We were away for a beach week and it was nice to reset after the 160 e 65th apt mayhem. I know it may seem like we're all over the place but I wanted to give you a general update for those that are following this hunt. Overall, we're now a bit divided between wanting to keep looking and wanting to just sell our current place (1 br in gramercy) and rent.I think we are getting a little fatigued with the hunt as we now have a much more strong understanding of the market (we've seen around 150-200 apts)...and we now know immediately why places dont work for us vs falling in love often. So we will keep looking and also keep considering maybe going the rental route. Since renting is so short term, we could even just stick to a 1 br for a 1 year lease. and for $4000 or so, you can get a pretty solid rental. I don't love the idea of having to move so much but it seems smarter in some ways. Thoughts?

@MrMidtownWest - not interested in that far uptown, thanks. re: income restrictions, I dont know what they would be as we have only felt pressure in the other direction! I found this article about it, and based on that I think that we likely would not fit within it. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/29/realestate/affordable-new-york-apartments-with-a-catch.html?_r=0

NYCNovice gets me so she can feel free to talk on my behalf as she's only been spot on so far! :) We're currently in the high 200s and I'd assume that may jump into the low 300s in the next year or sow/ consulting work / side projects and career growth so I would not be comfortable committing to staying under an income restriction-- both for practical reasons (we have to leave if we are beyond it?) and also just ethical ones (income restrictions were set up for important reasons).

also- I notice that my comment re: rent vs buy got cut off weirdly. Oh well. Fine with dropping that conversation. Fieldschester & Bburg - so many eyerolls. troll elsewhere pls?

Re: streetsmart -- yes, i'm also troubled by the relentless exaggeration phenomenon. Actually one young couple I know, also both in tech are now thinking of selling or renting out as they bought a place and only now get that they were duped on it's being a convertible 2. Sort of sad and also naive to buy and not really get second opinions on room size until after closing and hiring an architect and interior decorator. sigh.

Lz3- we saw that apt. We both had a negative reaction to the layout. I never thought I minded asymmetrical spaces but the oddness of the room shapes really does detract. Even if we could get over that, it's basically in need of a gut reno. All the areas you are not seeing are in very poor condition. And on top of that, the maintenance is high (my husband is more of a budget stickler than me). Also, this drama re: building services freaked me out a bit: http://streeteasy.com/talk/discussion/36562-building-at-136-east-56th-street

Nothing wrong with renting. I recently bought but it is hardly an economic no-brainer. So many things are easier as a renter, and lots of liquid reserves has its own comfort.
I think if you have looked at 200 apartments without buying one that you are either not serious or not in tune with the market.

KennyZ, we were serious. had a bid in on one place and pulled out when we realized the putting up of a wall was not so simple to make their "converted 2 bedroom, board approval guaranteed" and got into a bidding war on another and lost. Not sure we could be more serious than preparing board packages, getting pre-approvals etc.

@taxibutton - You remind me of a better version of myself 20 years ago. I started my career in SF in the late 90's and thanks to an excellent client, I ended up in tech for no reason other than right place/right time. It. Was. Awesome. I was raised with a "never rent" mentality and could afford to buy in SF at the time, but to buy an apartment comparable to what I was renting at the time would have required me to invest my entire life savings in something that was not what I wanted to represent my life savings, if that makes any sense. I could not believe that having saved as much as I had and doing as well professionally as I was doing I could not find anything in my budget that I could see myself in for any length of time. 20 years later I understand it much better than I did then. When you want to buy something in SF or NY, you are competing with everyone on the planet, and it is rough. I think you are in an event tougher position because you grew up in prime Manhattan, so you are simply trying to maintain what you are used to. I grew up in Detroit, so I can always go home and buy anything I want. Thanks for the update. I know you are serious about buying and I am dying to see how it turns out because I feel confident that if you do buy something, it will be the right fit for you. Were I to place money on the outcome, I would bet that you end up renting for a few years, but I am still keeping my fingers crossed for you that you find something you want to buy.

Detroit is so overrated.

How about 53rd and 8th? I actually think their 2 BR 1 Bath layout is very economical.

Yeah, because there aren't enough bathrooms. Like a 4 door, 3 wheel car. What else was skimped on?

thanks so much for your comment, NYCNovice. I'd love to meet you offline! SF in the 90s in tech sounds fascinating. I so appreciate your help here and support. I probably should just email you directly ha. Re: maintaining the level i grew up with-- on some level yes, absolutely, but on another level I hate Park and Fifth and feel like what I'm seeking is pretty down to earth. I/we prefer more commercial avenues / streets and less-than-white-glove buildings w/ less formality. But yes, we'd just like something that isn't so many levels below where I grew up. I guess that kind of set the bar high. My husband (who was born and raised in a much different socio-economic level in Europe) has similar 'grounded' and practical tastes so I tend to think / hope I haven't been too warped by the NYC upbringing. (Although, to mess with me / joke around, he often sings "uptown girl" when I'm behaving worthy of the title. While we were out of the city, we did a short term rental condo in a beach town in Delaware w/ some of my college friends who live in DC & baltimore and just having a huge 200-300 sq ft bedroom /bathroom suite had us on cloud 9. It's ludicrous how relaxing it was to have CHAIRS in a bedroom! and a huge bathroom we each had our own sink & I could take a bath while he showered! That plus the novelty of a washer drier in the unit and the convenience of a car had us sort of high on the idea of leaving the city for about 48 -72 hours. Then we both floated down from our shared suburban fantasy and started getting bored and missing NYC. But I keep finding myself browsing LA real estate where unlike SF it's not AS insane. I don't think I could or would ever choose to live anywhere else, but the oppressively high standards feel really hard to take. NYCNovice kind of nailed it with the line about "competing with everyone on the planet"....I don't know. Neither of us work at the *biggest* companies in tech or in hedge funds or law; it's just difficult to figure out how / when we'll ever be able to accumulate enough savings to really break into that true 2 bedroom bracket. Even with stock options and the like, it feels like we'll always be stretching because the bar is always getting higher and higher and there's so little inventory. So I guess we'll keep our minds open and try to stay flexible / keep an eye out while being savvy. And maybe that means renting for a bit or some compromises but hopefully we can at least get the sq footage we want. Sorry for the overshare, just thinking outloud about this market / what I'm seeing / how I'm feeling.

Belgariad - How can I search for the building you're talking about w/o an exact address? link? name? Not a fan of that neighborhood but would absolutely take a look if you can clarify. Please don't make me google streetmap stalk it out!

the development is called 53rd and Eighth : http://streeteasy.com/for-sale/nyc/building:17563.

It's definitely too close to Times Square for sure. But some of the units face west and reportedly has a view of the Hudson River and that to me is priceless. :)

Based on your parameters I think your maintenance is too high for the price. You'd have more flexibility if you were willing to pay more with less maintenance.
Also, I don't remember your family status but if you are planning kids soon a second full bathroom is very nice to have for a long term purchase.

Belgariad - I'm not sure which of those units you're thinking. They're all dramatically over 1.25M and for 700-800 sq ft? dislike location. no thx.

Hi TB - I know you are not crazy about the idea of being this far east, but this one might make your reconsider: http://streeteasy.com/building/455-east-51-street-new_york/4d

How do you know who is crazy and who is not crazy?

You'd have to do a gut reno, but it looks like it is priced right for that, and you could customize everything to your exact taste and likely stay within your budget. We live in this neighborhood and it is a real neighborhood where people know each other and there is a great diverse mix of longtime residents, young professionals, established professionals, young families, empty-nesters. Except I have in my mind that I think you said "no dogs" at some point; it is not a neighborhood for someone who doesn't want to be around dogs.

Was your area plowed by De Blasio?

I do not know who cleared the snow; it may have been the mayor or it may have been our neighborhood association, but our streets were clear. The neighborhood association and the staff of all the buildings are great; there is a lot of comaraderie and pride in the neighborhood.

Yay!

So, I woke up thinking about this listing. http://streeteasy.com/building/455-east-51-street-new_york/4d
It is a sickness, I know, but I really think it is a contender. It is an established building with a great history; very special building (we looked at a a few apartments in the building). Its location, architecture, courtyard and roofdeck need to be experienced first hand to appreciate how special the building is. What I love about the neighborhood is that as soon as you cross over 1st Avenue from midtown east proper, your blood pressure drops and you enter tranquility, but if you want restaurants, diners, nail salons, groceries, drug stores, etc. they are all right there on 1st. There is also something special about looking at all the midtown high rises from the tranquility of the lowrises if you look west, and then if you look east you have the river plus the skyline of whatever section of Queens you are looking at - is that LIC? I really don't know, but I find it interesting. There was a conversation a few months ago about whole building buyouts, and Beekman Terrace (455 East 51st) at one point was a real target; if you search New York Times archive you can get the full story. Were we still in the market, I would have been all over this listing. I recall thinking that the maintenance seemed a bit high and never got to due diligence phase to examine the financials, but I reasoned to myself that anytime there is a roofdeck the maintenance is going to be a bit higher than elsewhere, but that is an amenity that I think is worth it. Our building in SF has one and I go up there a lot, almost always to find that I have it all to myself. As a final note, the walk to the train from here is a peaceful one (if you take 51st or 52nd) or a restaurant-intensive one (if you take 53rd), so while it might be a bit further from the train than you are looking for, try the walk a few times to get a feel for it.

I have always liked the east 50's and thought apartments there were, for a long time, underpriced in relation to other areas (but no longer).

And this building may be charming, but the whole place is doll-sized - very small bedrooms, kitchen, living room cannot really function with a regular dining table. It may be pre-war, but it certainly is not what people think of when they think "PRE-WAR" grand sized rooms and gracious layouts.

I believe the OP said there was a preference for post-war buildings, where at least the bedrooms are a good size and there is central air.

As someone who bought what seems like it was intended as maids' quarters for the larger more elegant apartments in our prewar building, I see the point about doll sized, but we are working with a budget here that is going to require some compromise/imagination. I know OP expressed preference for post-war and central air, but having followed her search closely, I would still recommend taking a look at this one.

I switched computers from earlier this morning, and this one is logged in as MCR. I am retiring NYCNovice, but was keeping it in action for this thread alone to avoid confusion. That was a bust.

Service wings didn't have 16x20 living rooms with fireplaces.

I think your building's four-per-floor arrangement on floors 2-7 was originally intended for 8-and-higher also. The the developer figured the neighborhood was getting even fancier, so decided to see how two-per-floor woud fly on the higher floors. Those layouts are awkward, having to work around the chimney stacks for the lower floors, and have a make-do feel to them. E.g., the convoluted path from LR to DR, odd columns in the middle of walls, etc.

NWT - Interesting background. Thanks. You probably already know this, but the developer who did our building subsequently did 455 East 51st and The Camponile on East 52nd with different architects. Fun reading about the buildings and their residents in old NYT articles via The Times Machine.

455 had the same architect and builder as yours, and the same savvy product mix in a neighborhood that was still feeling its legs. 455 is only six stories, and so cheaper non-fireproof construction. Two big apartments at the front, with four smaller ones across the back, ranging from 1-3 BRs and with dining alcoves. Every apartment had a WBFP, so intended for the same demographic but with fewer or no kids. Same thinking as with yours.

Typing same time. 455 being only six stories is part of why it was a buyout contender back in 1985, being underbuilt.

Makes sense - when we zeroed in on the neighborhood a friend told us it was a mix of "newly weds and almost deads" or "newly married and almost buried." There is a family in our building that started out in C line, but then moved up to 9th floor when they had 2nd child.

Just spent half an hour on them and your building. *Again*. Your board does stick with the safe bets, which is comforting.

I do feel like we are in good hands; you may or may not recall in my hunt that I was focused as much on board composition as on physical space and location.

arg - went back downstairs to computer of this morning, so nycnovice alive again. I have a feeling that between various computers (2 handhelds, 2 desktops and 2 laptops) it is going to take my awhile to get them all back to MCR.

I would really like to hear Bburg's take on 455 East51st 4D and hope that if she weighs in, FC will leave her alone. She is in much better position than I to opine on what would make sense for someone contemplating a family and I believe she is somewhat familiar with the neighborhood.

Bhurg was banned from SE.

?

Oh thank goodness!

Ever thought of joining two 1br apartments together to get your 2br?

Its easier than most people think.

We started out with 2 studios to make a 1br and now have taken over the 3rd studio for a 2br 2bth apartment that to be honest....we couldn't have afforded when starting out.

More photos here - we purchased ours from SMC stone in Brooklyn.

I don't know if we just got an average piece last time (we've bought from them 3 times - kitchen and then 2 separate bathroom renovations) but the last time I didn't notice anything on installation but there appear to be some "small holes" in the surface after a few months.

I'd probably buy from them again as was probably a once off......but i'll be paying closer attention during install to the surface.

There are some photos of what we did here - http://www.collins.net.pr/Photo/House%20photos/135%20Henry%20St%2C%20Brooklyn/photo.htm

Another reason I like 455 E51st 4D; combination immediately above that is also on market (5DE) shows expansion potential. Not sure if there is a 4E or who lives there, but something I would explore if I were in the market.

Oh come on! The ONLY positive about doll size 4D is that it has views of the river, rather than of the close brick walls of so many of the smaller pre-war apartments in the East 50's.
And the 5DE combination has been on the market since 2010, with no takers.

Oh come on! The ONLY positive about doll size 4D is that it has views of the river, rather than of the close brick walls of so many of the smaller pre-war apartments in the East 50's.
And the 5DE combination has been on the market since 2010, with no takers.

@ph41 - That is because 5DE is absurdly priced. I can understand why many would not give 4D or the apartment that I ultimately purchased the time of day, but were I still in the market, I would have given it 4D serious consideration. Given your screen name, I am guessing that this is not a niche of the market that you understand well or have much experience with?

and 4D has two full baths - something that I did not see for under 1.2 when I was looking, even in gut reno condition.

I've lived in many different apartments, small and large, and have friends in similar circumstances. Sorry, a million dollars for that apartment seems way overprices, especially if it does need renovation. There are apartments out there with 2 full bedrooms and 2 full baths, in the $1.2-1.4 million range, but sometimes a larger apartment is a tradeoff for giving up a specific desired location. Sometimes you can't have it all.

Exactly. TB is in the process of figuring out what tradeoffs she wants to make. It looks like she is going in the direction of more square feet in less expensive neighborhoods, but her early targets were closer to 4D. Either way, I will be watching 4D out of sheer curiosity to see if/when it sells and at what price. I have not seen it so I have no idea if it is overpriced or not; the only thing I can say is that as someone who was in that market, it leapt out at me as one that deserved a look.

P.S. to ph41, when I play back your comments, they come out to me in total as "come on, the only thing that apartment has going for it is the view and the location." Again, not currently in the market so I don't have my finger on its pulse and cannot say whether this apartment is currently overpriced or not, but I do not think I am alone in valuing view and location in real estate transactions. :-)

@multi: Basically I think that you are totally entranced by a very tiny little section of the east 50's, further limited by the all consuming desire for a pre-war, despite some major drawbacks.

In actual point of fact, I don't think the East 50's are considered the best location in Manhattan. In fact, many consider that area something of a negative.

So, yes, 4D at least has a sliver of as river view. Is that really enough to overcome the MAJOR drawbacks of that apartment? I don't think so, but I will also be following it to see where the price lands.

And actually, the OP never put the East 50's on her list of desired locations. The hike to the subway is a major turnoff.