George Floyd #2

in = if -

@stache - I like your managing threads, but suspect I am not alone in wanting this one recede into the SE Dialogues Archives.

@30yrs - I got a fair piece into the book you recommended and here is my take: TOO DARK!!

Another update: I just went to AR's husband's FB page to get his take, as well as a number of others in the network's take, on the Title VII decision, but was dismayed to see that he has deactivated his FB account.

I don't log into FB that often, but my guess is that his deactivation is a stand against Zuckerberg's refusal to more actively censor the spread of bat sh*t crazy conspiracy theories on FB.

To tie all of this together, check out footage from Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation hearings and you will see seated right behind BK is a gentleman named Joel Kaplan (Joel's wife is sitting right next to Brett's wife Ashley).

Joel Kaplan is the head of Global Affairs at FB. As much as everybody I know loves him as an individual, my husband included, I am not a fan, and think he is among the those who only agree with Never Trumpers when there is nobody around of consequence to hear it because I have never heard him say anything publicly or in mixed company to suggest that he objects to DJT. He and BK are close, and I suspect he strategized with BK on how to play the confirmation hearings: "Yes, LIE! DENY! Flatter Trump!"

I could live with those FedSoc members who say they are not with DJT on stoking the racism if they spoke up publicly that such was their position. Instead, now, if pressed in front of the crew, each will say "Huh? I don't recall ever saying that I found Trump offensive or racist. I have no idea what is in the man's heart."

To be clear, I don't know if anyone has ever put Joel Kaplan on the spot like that or what he would say, but I do know he has been notably silent publicly, as has Sheryl Sandberg, who is one of Joel's best friends from college.

I note my disappointment in Sheryl Sandberg to highlight that it is not just Republicans and FedSoc members who are staying quiet because such is in their best financial interest; apparently it is the American way. That is what has scared me the most; even those I would have expected to be leading the dialogue on some of these issues are laying low because at the end of the day, I suspect America as a country does care about the economy more than it does about any particular minority's being treated equally under the law.

I fairly consistently get MCR as a "friend suggestion" on Facebook.

What? how is that possible? I would never have put you as a FB user. Friend me please! My FB posts are a lot more vanilla than they were before I cut ties with over 50% of my friends. Yours is a common name, so I do not know how to friend you.

@30yrs- I like the breadth of your FB posts as compared to your SE posts and commend you for staying on topic wrt to SE content.

Update to the nobody who cares: AR’s husband has revived his FB account and the network of interested parties are glad to have him back on that platform(as well as the occasional cameo from AR herself).

https://nypost.com/2020/10/28/luxury-manhattan-buildings-hire-guards-for-possible-election-day-unrest/

I know one team is prepared, and sadly it is not mine.

The rich are paranoid since they know full well that their money is stolen money taken from the blood of the poor.

“Behind every great fortune is a great crime” Balzac

The NY Post is like Trump, they love to incite violence. How did this paper ever do down so far.

correction,
do is go

Remember when all the buildings on 5th Avenue would board up their windows for the Puerto Rican/Dominican Day parades but got shamed out of that for being racist?

ss,
I think I agree if you are going for "most people think everyone else acts the same way they do" so if you meet someone who seems to trust everyone else right off the bat you can probably trust them too, but if you meet someone who always thinks everyone else is lying, cheating and stealing from them it's probably because they do that.

Yes, that is why I love AlanHart's reference to the super rich as "the criminal class." That is certainly the case with the those descended from the robber barrons, but I like to think that those amassing the more recent fortunes, the tech barrons if you will, are a better lot.

I haven't heard anything from my building but I wouldn't be surprised if they have something on standby. I hadn't thought much about violence after election day here in NYC.

MCR,
I guess you haven't heard about people resigning from Facebook, Google, Uber, etc for various ethical reasons.

Actually, I know quite a bit about that. It will be interesting to see how that all turns out. I am disappointed in Zuckerberg but still (naively I am sure) holding out hope that he will evolve away from the influence of the Peter Thiel-types and more towards the Bill Gates-types as he ages, but I admit he has a long way to go. I've never been a huge fan of Sergei Brin or Larry Page, but I don't fault them for exploiting labor. I don't know, it's hard to blame any of them when they are just exploiting our stupidity and narcissism. My favorite, however, is Elon Musk. I can't help but like him.

Uber, on the other hand - not cool. That guy was just awful. I haven't kept up on that one, but there were high hopes for the new CEO. I felt he was going to be a force for good (as I define it), but again, I haven't been following that one closely.

So you're fine with Musk's "We'll coup whoever we want"?

" I don't fault them for exploiting labor."
"it's hard to blame any of them when they are just exploiting our stupidity and narcissism."

I don't find the willful exploitation of ignorance or economic vulnerability to be an acceptable business model, though obviously they do, and it has paid off for them. Maybe that's whythey're billionaires with lots of negative press, and I'm not.

I feel like he lives in a different universe, according to his own rules, such that when he uses the pronoun "we," he is using it in the royal sense, meaning "me, myself and I." I just can't take anything he says in the political realm seriously and don't see him every siding with any group on a slate of issues.

"I don't find the willful exploitation of ignorance or economic vulnerability to be an acceptable business model, though obviously they do, and it has paid off for them. Maybe that's why they're billionaires with lots of negative press, and I'm not."

@Aaron - While I agree, my only recourse is to not patronize their businesses and cast my vote in any way that I feel can improve the laws and regulations. Unfortunately, as matters stand, the law is on their side. While I don't "like" them, I have to just turn away, because society as it stands has decided it is fine with all of it.

I have parted company with everyone I know who is on board with exploiting ignorance, so I guess I probably do fault all of them, but I fault "us," meaning society at large for creating a society that allows all of it. They accuse me of being paternalistic and saying "who are you to hold us to a standard beyond the laws we have all agreed to," and that is where their genius comes in: They now control the judiciary, so they can change the law, which is the only boundary they respect, per their whims.

Even if the election goes the way I hope it does, my values are still in for a world of hurt given the composition of the judiciary. Everything they have done is "legal" and that is the scariest thing of all.

Happy Thursday?

P.S. to Aaron: When I said "I don't fault them for exploiting labor," what I meant is that these tech companies are not running sweat shops, meaning they are not exploiting labor. They are exploiting ignorance and narcissism, but they are not fostering unsafe work conditions or low wages. That is why I distinguished Uber from the others.

One last thought: I come from a culture where the ethos is "Every man for himself; survival of the fittest; I have no responsibility to or for any other human being (including my own family members if it comes down to me vs. them)."

I have left that culture because it didn't feel "right" to me. However, I know that culture is alive and well in a large swath of the country, and the only way to navigate it and maintain my sanity is to steer clear of those who swear by that ethos, while casting my vote for what feels "right" to me.

As strongly as I feel that the ethos I have left is unacceptable, those who subscribe to it feel that my compelling them to consider the well-being of humans they don't know is unacceptable, and I have to grant them their right to believe what they believe and live accordingly. It is what I have come to recognize as an irreconcilable difference.

Well, when Musk says "We'll coup whoever we want" he is talking about the government who pays him billions of dollars in carefully maneuvered subsidies overthrowing a duly elected government who was going to oppose him getting cheap lithium for his batteries. Personally I find that hard to waive my hands over as an eccentricity.

He is an unabashed self-centered visionary and doesn't pretend to be anything else. I really can't justify liking him, but I follow him with keen interest nevertheless. I suppose if I viewed him as a real threat, that "like" might turn pretty quickly. Again, I found DJT entertaining and likeable and actually DVR'd The Apprentice, frequently fast-forwarding straight to the Board Room scense.

In fact, now that I think of it, that is how I used to view many of my former cronies. I didn't take them overly seriously and didn't feel threatened by them, but when the tide turned, my claws came out involuntarily and the hair on the back of my neck continues to stand up whenever I find myself in their vicinity. I feel like that guy in the Life of Pi; I just want to get to shore and have the tiger retreat back into my subconscious, but I will certainly never kid myself that the tiger is not in there.

“A man lying on a bed of roses can feel more pain than a man lying in horse manure“ Leo Tolstoy

The fact is that rich people are painfully boring and so many are in terrible pain. As Truman Capote used tell us, and he knew rich people very well and that is that they are frightened to death of losing their money as they know they could not live without it.
Of course so many decry rich people but if they should have the occasion to meet one they become in awe of them. Until people can get their thoughts in sync with their feelings, history will move very slowly.

I feel like I know interesting rich people and boring rich people. I think those whose riches are a byproduct of some passion tend to be more interesting than those for whom money was and remains the only goal, but I am sure there are exceptions in each group.

This echoes of this conversation have depressed me all day. What one person values, another finds deplorable; what one person finds interesting, another finds boring. My team lost in 2016 and I’ve hated every minute since, but I still accepted the result. I will do the same this go around if the election doesn’t yield my preferred result, but I remain profoundly ill at ease that others will not. And as for history, I really want to believe the arc of the universe bends towards justice (as I define it), but at this point I am more inclined to think that history is doomed to repeat itself until we go the way of the dinosaurs.

I wish I had the faith in the system that you do but it's been beaten out of me.

Agree with 30 years.

Churchill's quote that is now cliche comes to mind.

Truth be told, I don't have great faith in the system either given all the morally indefensible (per my morals) things that have been "legal" under it over the years (slavery being at the top of those), but I can't point to a better one.

MCR you can’t point to a better one because a better one comes with activism. A better one comes in the future. Are you afraid of losing the little you have?
In a feudal society, people couldn’t point to a better society either.

Over a year ago the president of the Anti Defamation League said we are now at the same historical point that Nazi Germany was in the early 1930’s.

I do believe that Trump if re-elected or steals the election will destroy whatever is left of our democracy. He may even send people to an internment camp. If he isn’t re elected there are others to take his place, Tom Cotton.

“ When they came for the communists, I said nothing because I wasn’t a communist
When they came for the trade unionists, I said nothing because I wasn’t a trade unionist
When they came for the Jews, I said nothing because i wasn’t a Jew
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak for me”

Donald Trump’s favorite book, Mien Kampf. (by Adolf Hitler)Used to keep it on his night stand, probably still does.

@streetsmart - I am as activist as I can be within the confines of the law. With respect to crossing over into violence, I have often wondered what I would have done were I a German during the Hitler years. I would like to think that at worst I would have been an unfortunate news story about an unhinged middle-aged woman who was shot while attempting something quite unlawful, while at best I would have been successful in my attempt. I am right there with you in your assessment of DJT and his enablers, and I certainly hope things do not take a darker turn such that the tiger discussed above escapes from her cage.

As a post script, I most recently toured the Holocaust Museum in 2017, and the parallels are bone chilling.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/30/business/retailers-election-protests.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&se

I wonder what the future of Soho retail is going to be. And if high end Soho retail is history what is going to happen to all those high priced Soho lofts?

Reverse of this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/01/realestate/co-op-maintenance-reduced-to-almost-nothing.html

With respect to those UES coops that have been selling off their doctors' offices in the past few years, I have wondered whether that is a function of the physicians' deciding the rental location is not good or of the coops being so far down in the hole that they have made the calculation that they need the $1M+ in capital to shore up their balance sheets in the short term? I suspect the latter. In our building, those who want to eliminate the staff also want to sell the super's apartment to shore up the balance sheet short term so they can make their escape.

Perhaps some of it has to do with sole practitioners becoming an endangered species?

PS Mrs Greens has been vacant for over 4 years. How much shareholder money got flushed down the toilet? Millions?
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20161124/west-village/mrs-green-hudson-street-closing-closed

http://www.lansco.com/exclusives/585-hudson-street/

This is another reason the "Business Judgement Rule" needs to go.

@30yrs - Excellent point re the independent physician model no longer being tenable.

Re that article, a quick look at the two 299 Bank St studios on the market have maintenance just over $1k/mo. So yes, a certain amount of the long-term value of the co-op was flushed over the past few years (I liken it to a company indiscriminately paying large dividends to the shareholders, without investing in marketing, advertising, and R&D to keep it's product line selling, and paying down outstanding debt). Would it be better if the commercial space was sold off with the owner becoming a regular shareholder (with possibly an outsize voice on the board, given that they may have a lot of shares)? 10 Plaza St in Bklyn sold their rental medical units separately to most of the then current tenants, and now they're ordinary shareholders. Nice cash infusion (to an already well run building), and a few more shareholders, none with undue influence.

Were I on the board of such a building the decision would be a function of what the space would command on the rental market vs the per share maintenance it would be paying if owned by a regular shareholder. I would try to avoid making a decision during any crisis (e.g., a pandemic) if I could afford to, and either way, this is an issue where I’d bring all the shareholders into the discussion even though the business judgment rule would allow the board to make the decision without consulting the shareholders (assuming the governing docs were conventional).

@30yrs - I am still waiting for the decision that so many agree is necessary that will revamp the business judgment rule as it has evolved in coops. I am beginning to put it in the same category as the Eastside Greenway and the next tranche of the 2nd Ave subway.

They could have also entered into a long term master lease with an up front payment in return for lower annual rent (or not) giving them no say in running the Coop.

MCR selling the super's apt can be problematic, depending on your corporation contract. We rented out our super's apt to a restaurant but our contract specifies the super has to have a place no greater than about a half block away to qualify as 'live in'. So we wound up buying another 1BR in the building for him, as opposed to renting one for him in a nearby building. It's a mess.

@stache - yes, that is part of our building’s current subcription to the collective bargaining agreement. All the current talk is in anticipation of whether we will be signing on for whatever comes out of the 2022 negotiations.

I wouldn't be surprised if in our new world of "disruptors" someone doesn't come up with a new approach to building services which eliminates union and even full time employees. Buildings are going to have to cut back on existing expenses as Real Estate Taxes and various compliance costs rise.

Then you wind up with a bunch of flunkies that don't care when your delivery goes missing, are openly rude etc.

Why some one claims to hate DJT often picks on others' English herself? Is it a war between two types of racists? LOL

@Anton - I believe every human being is sexist and racist and that the challenge is for each of us to fight the negative aspects (as I see them) of that in ourselves and in society. Affirmative action (such as using “she” as the gender neutral pronoun or allowing race to be a factor in decision-making) is one tool I personally use to do that. I could discuss this with you all day and answer all of your questions. If you are really interested, I suggest starting a new thread.

Ridiculous, AA, aka racism used to battle racism. Who will decide who gets what ? should a poor black person jump the line in front of a poor white person ?. Or maybe because Asians are a smaller percentage , we throw poor Asians under the bus first. "allowing race to be a factor in decision-making", yep thats what started racism in the first place. Does the illogic of AA even bother you mcr ?

@knewbie - I respect your position and am aware of the messiness of it all. What is not logical to one person is logical to another. I believe you and I have already discussed our disagreement on this issue, and I do not believe any further discussion will resolve that disagreement, though I am happy to continue discussing if you wish.

@knewbie - Look at the bright side, at least you get a moderate racist to help fight against the extreme racist

@Anton - I prefer the qualifier “self-aware” over “moderate,” but as noted elsewhere, I am not the boss of you or anyone else on here, so call me whatever you like. Yours truly, CAB

The bright side ?, Prop 16 which raised over $19 million to support affirmative action goes down in flames to opponents who only raised $1.5 million. Who woulda thunk that a true blue state with a progressive at the helm would see the evils of using skin color/ethnicity to determine who gets what. Glad to see Asians giving Trump +18% in voter support vs 2016. Dems are dying on the wrong hill with AA. Its time has long past. Latinos +6% for Trump vs 2016. Dems will continue to miss the boat on this, but politicians are not the brightest lot. Hopefully if any AA cases grace the doorway of SCOTUS, they will take note of the largest state in the union making a bold statement with the flushing of prop16.

On a darker note, looks like the party of Disparate Impact/Critical race theory will be occupying the white house for the next 4 years. Expect more division as they try to label and force even more.
questionable ideology on the unsuspecting

@knewbie - Check your sources. The stats you cite are not grounded in fact. I know you believe what you write, and I don’t blame you for your nonsense. You are no match for the machine but you are a useful cog.

Fairly amazing , an "extreme" racist/facist Republican candidate actually getting more non white votes then any republican since 1960. Seems to knock the narrative right on its a rear ? no ?
Trump won 43% of the Florida Jewish vote, a historic high as per the NYT. Overall, Trump received the highest portion of the Jewish vote for any Repub since 1988.

Dems are not that lost, they got their boy Biden in. They will change the narrative. If anything they learned the divisive race/gender based politics of its left wing brethren are a losing dying proposition at best. You can sell your narrative all you want, but few are buying. If Joe is smart he will put it in the dumpster. But reality says he's got some debts to pay to the looney left so maybe Eric Holder, the master of disparate impact, comes back for a repeat at DOJ. I think he's about the best pro out there for divisive AA nonsense.

Everyone told me the reason for the stock market run up just prior to the election was because the market liked the "surety." It seems pretty clear right now that was bull. So is the real reason that it realized nothing was really going to change?

@knewbie, as previously noted, I respect your perspective. If you don't mind continuing the conversation, I am curious as to whether you are a single issue voter, with that issue being affirmative action? In other words, do you support Dem platform on healthcare, the environment, etc but chose to vote Republican despite your support for the Dem platform in general solely because the DOJ is filing lawsuits that you hope will end affirmative action?

OR do you support the bulk of the Republican platform in general such that your perception that its focus on ending affirmative action was just another issue in its favor for you?

If the former (you would otherwise vote Dem but for affirmative action), how many other single issue voters do you know where that is their single issue? It sounds like you believe that is a driver for many people?

For my part, I know quite a few Never Trumpers where Trump's comments on race are what flipped them to vote for HRC in 2016 and for Biden in 2020.

Either way, it sounds like you believe our democracy is working and that the issue will get worked out? You believe it will ultimately shift to your preferences, and it well may, but one last question: Have you read any of the legal decisions? How much research have you done to support your conclusion that it doesn't work? Would you expect such a program to in one generation and then be done?

mcr, AA is one of a number of issues where I agree with conservatives. I know a few single issue voters but they are far a few between.

I do think the republic is and was always safe. The comparisons of Trump to Hitler/ Fascism were ridiculous to say the least. It reminded me of how bad Americans are at knowing their own history much less European history and what Fascism was really about. It was more the hysteria of those
who did not get what they wanted.

I've always told my friends who disagreed with me, lets talk actual policy, not feelings of hurt or words thrown out of context. It seems to me we have forgotten that sticks and stones may break your bones but...
I do understand how many would say a POTUS speaking that way is not what they want. And yes Trump is bombastic and a loudmouth, but unless it affects actual policy, I can deal with it. As an aside... I always thought Obama was one of the smoothest talking car salesmen ever to grace the planet . Maybe Obama was the one who finally turned me off to someone who always says the right thing at the right time yet when it came to actual policy..ouch

Re AA, the courts decisions ? sure I know them well..ie Burrough's Harvard decision. I guess her political bent was her deciding factor. What happened to the 14th amendment ? equal protection ? The civil rights act of 1964 ? In case we've forgotten what we fought so hard for in 64... "The Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin. Provisions of this civil rights act forbade discrimination on the basis of sex, as well as, race in hiring, promoting, and firing. The Act prohibited discrimination in public accommodations and federally funded programs."

And Yes, Harvard is federally funded (over 500 million in federal research funds for 2019.). And even if they were able to label themselves as private , why would CR 1964 be something they just toss aside ?

What is a much better alternative to AA? ...socioeconomic standards. If you are poor and come from a difficult social /economic background, then by all means lets give you a leg up. Its not divisive like AA and in that sense alone, healthier for a society. If we keep trying to use race to divide our selves, it will just get worse. AA is bizarre in that the AA cure is pretty much the same disease we are trying to cure. Here's a shocker...If you want to get people hopping mad, use their race/skin color against them.

Anyway, I appreciate your civil engagement mcr. I have no doubt or your intentions. We just disagree on the methods.

Knewbie - Thank you for sharing. I understand and respect where you are coming from on all points, even though I disagree.

On a separate note, this statement made me smile: "It reminded me of how bad Americans are at knowing their own history much less European history" because it recalled to me fondly some of the many conversations I have had with those whose countries of origin are different than mine on history.

Among those many conversations, my favorites were with one Chinese professor in particular who spent his formative years in rural China as a part of the Mao's Cultural Revolution. He had many pet peeves regarding Americans, but the string I liked to pull the most was his annoyance at how Americans are so obsessed with our one civil war in our paltry 400 year history. It was great fun to lead him deeper down that path, and it was many months before I got him to smile at himself at how he sounded when talking about Americans.

My time spent with those Chinese people I studied with, worked with, and lived among (in both the U.S. and in China) taught me quite a lot. Related to that point, I will add "which of us is the better student of history (U.S., European, World) to the list of issues on which you and I disagree.

MCR,
Perhaps my interpretation of your anecdote is totally misplaced but it sounds like a guy I know who would purposely call the Brazilian women we knew "Latin" just to set them off.

@30yrs - I’m sure I have no idea what caused you to associate my anecdote with the gentleman you reference. :)

PS @30yrs - How many Argentinians does the gentleman you reference know? My Argentinian friends are those with whom I have the most fun in these conversations along those lines.

But the Americans really ignore history, a hundred years ago, masks were already mandated during the California pandemic

I left the midwest to NYC 20 yrs ago to avoid religion, race, stupidity, belligerent nationalism, and extreme laziness. 15+ yrs in Manhattan & none of these issues really ever came up to the extent in the midwest.

One 5% IRR President and all of a sudden, it's like all the midwest has brought their grievances to NYC.

Btw, this trope of mentioning the black vote is obvious bc the vote was ~90% in favor of Biden & that part is never mentioned.

Finally, as an MD that practiced through Covid, I would add that no Prez has been more consequential in terms of policy than Trump imo. Many think of policy is a pro-active thing but it can also be due to lack of reaction and/or stifling of important info. The CDC data has been whitewashed the entire year. The hospital systems were told to go screw themselves. I've lost more MDs and nurses and medical professionals this year than in all years combined.

This is particularly brutal because I have MD friends around the world...and those in rich countries did not experience these types of failures. In fact, I cannot think of any other country, that at peak covid, told it's hospitals to bid against each other - we paid btwn 100x the pre-covid price for safety gear.

This is 100% Trump's fault as it was his decision. This is why the American death rate is 4x the average btw & that cannot be turned back.

Rough numbers, we should have ~75% less covid than we do now had we acted normally. And with many fewer shutdowns along the way! Soon, the daily toll will likely be a 9/11 a day. Osama would be jealous of Trump.

Also, Trump districts accounted for 36% of GDP in 2016. Now they are 29% of GDP. This idea that he had no impact and is all bluster is false. He has decimated cities and rural areas combined. And added more debt than any President...who could have guessed?

@anonymousbk, thanks for your medical work. The racist dotard even made tons of former Obama haters miss the Obama-Biden years.

anon, no doubt there were mistakes made but the issues surrounding covid are a a bit more complicated then one might think.....

“Whether we have one bidder or 51 bidders you’re going to have a price increase,” said Christopher Snyder, an economics professor at Dartmouth College. Snyder said that in a shortage, it is usually a “sign of health” for prices to go up and could actually encourage more suppliers to enter the market. Pricing flexibility only becomes a problem when state budgets are exhausted by the prices or the highest bidder is not the one who has the most need, he said.

From Knewbie: "Pricing flexibility only becomes a problem when state budgets are exhausted by the prices or the highest bidder is not the one who has the most need"

Response: Gee, if only we had some federal agency that could have coordinated the response such that those with the most need got the supplies. Or, if only there was some sort of statute that could have assisted with getting producers to enter various markets. Please do elaborate on your response to anonymousbk because as it stands, it strikes me that you just read an article somewhere and that you have only digested a fraction of the information that is available on this topic. With that said, I remain open to any expertise you have to share in this area.

Orange Al Yeganeh says "New York - No soup for you!"

mcr, we all digest articles we read and its not like anyone has some sort of vast over riding expertise. If you care to debate, I would be glad to but pls dispense with the fallacy of an arguing from authority, be it yourself or anyone else. 1+1=2 whether its from a 7 year old or a math phd from Harvard.

Its a simple argument to make..Fema should have done all the purchasing. But in reality Fema was already running short of ppe. It just could not source supply fast enough. What Fema did was remain as a secondary supplier and tried to full fill urgent requests by states, but also allowed hospitals and health care systems to find their own sources of distribution. States/hospitals paid more but no one was complaining that they could not pay the bill. The feds and states would have backed them up financially. You can debate the process but the logic was clear. Did it work better, maybe, maybe not.

Why couldn’t FEMA not source supply fast enough. Please go on.

My grammar is just atrocious. Rephrase: Why couldn’t FEMA source fast enough. Really looking for the regulatory citations here. Can’t wait for our resident expert Knewbie to enlighten us. Seriously, I am so thankful for these discussion boards because I never cease to learn from the brilliant minds on here.

Why couldn’t FEMA source fast enough

-beeeecauuuse ppe was in high demand ? what's yr point.

mcr, you know how toilet paper was hard to get during march/ april ? yes it was in high demand. Think of it that way. Hope this example helps

DJT refused all calls to invoke the Defense Production Act to ameliorate the supply issues. our system is extraordinary and had the federal government used all the tools that the system has available for exactly this sort if thing, everything could have gone very differently.

All - Apologies for being snippy. I am signing off for awhile because my shortness is a sign that I am allowing my annoyance at the efficacy of the disinformation initiatives waged by certain parties get to me.

@knewbie - If you are really interested (and it seems you are), see what comes up on Google search for DPA and COVID. I have not done that, but I suspect it will get you the information. However, if after some research my point is still not clear, please do not hesitate to let me know and I’ll try to find a good briefing paper that I can post a link to. There are many debates one can have about the COVID response; if subsequent research leaves you still thinking that suboptimal allocation is limited supplies is still one of them and was beyond anybody’s control, I will be all ears.

MCR, DPA is a tool and it was used at various times for various industries. I think your point is if DPA was used from day one (whatever that date was) for PPE, the PPE shortage problem would not have been as great. I previously had no clue where you were going. You should stop doing the "I am the teacher you are the student " type of questioning and just get to the point.

You seem to think DPA was some sort of magic wand. Unless you can show how a company like 3M was some how skirting their ability to maximize mask production for the US markets prior to DPA, your pro DPA argument is a guess at best. Realistically DPA is a tool that can and was used but unless you have some magical powers, using DPA to tell Hanes to produce PPE will not do an ounce of good if they do not have the machinery or plant set up to comply. The point being it is a selective tool

Many companies were already voluntarily changed their production to meet PPE demand. Allowing mkt prices to dictate also naturally brings in additional production. No one said it was beyond anyones control. It was more a matter of how much control you have and how much you want to exert. To no ones surprise , PPE production in the ensuing weeks ramped up greatly DPA or not .

So the point to debate is very simple...dont show me theories on what might have been because you really do not know. Show me examples in the PPE industry where lack of DPA decreased potential PPE production. In fact, what you will find is PPE production came in at amazing levels
in the ensuing weeks. Primarily due to market forces and many private companies stepping up. All without DPA. American industry and innovation is amazing. Unlike authoritarian regimes where its DPA 24/7. Did we need DPA to get our pharmaceutical industry up and running at the onset ? nope.

Now thats not to say DPA is not useful. i.e the meat industry, DPA allowed the government to go in and provide PPE and support during critical periods. DPA was only used in the meat industry when they began showing problems, not before.

No worries from my end on being snippy. As I mentioned, I have no doubt your intentions are golden. It is just your positions are misguided.

Knewbie: Let's add this to the list of issues on which we disagree. We will never agree on policy if we cannot agree on facts. You can get your facts from Laura Ingraham et al.; as for me, I am going to listen to the healthcare professionals such as anonymousbk et al. See https://getusppe.org/the-defense-production-act-and-ppe/ for one of an unending number of recent and continuing calls for action from the healthcare industry with respect to PPE and the DPA.

btw - As with another post where I felt compelled to correct you, please note that you opened this debate with an authoritative lecturing tone to anonymousbk, who I suspect knows more about this topic than you do, so please stop pretending that I am the one who is adopting an "I am the teacher" tone. I only come in to correct you when you adopt an "I am the teacher" tone yourself, which you did with streetsmart regarding Tiananmen Square (when in fact she was right), and as you did earlier in this thread when you made the comment about how little Americans understand history.

I am not trying to be harsh; I likewise think you are doing the best you can and that your intentions are in the right place. I know you believe what you write, and I support your continued efforts to inform yourself (and yes, I do believe I am more informed than you are, but that does not mean that I am). Carry on.

I can't find it now so perhaps I'm having a senior moment but I could swear early on there was a story on 60 Minutes about a PPE manufacturer who kept trying to contact the administration about providing masks so they could ramp up production but were roundly and repeatedly ignored.

That rings a bell with me too.

@30yrs and stache - Arguing facts these days is nearly impossible. Were you to present specific allegations backed up by affidavits from those with first hand knowledge, those inclined to a different point of view will find a way to write them off. Honestly, DJT’s “fake news” slogan/campaign has been his most effective and his greatest accomplishment.

1st sorry for the emotional nature of the post - but I think most MDs have reached their limit this year if they dealt with this (another friend just died).

2nd, the way the PPE thing ended up was strange. We had a situation where the US govt could have had massive bulk orders from China at 5% of the cost we ended up paying. Defense production act another possibility. In no scenario did it make sense to allow things to get bid up to 1000% margins! This is not a situation of a biz with a 30% gross margin pivoting to increase prices due to demand to justify a 35% gm. This was gouging (often by organized mob or variants of scam artists).

In addition to being a practicing MD, I also run and own several businesses (almost all in medicine) and know owners of med supply companies - they would have taken much lower bids but when there are 20 people emotionally fighting to pay you $5-10 for something that costs 10 cents, what is the supplier going to do? Btw, some of the good ones honored verbal or written negotiations, but most were not going to hold your shipment until the money was wired (understandably). So you could agree to a price and over 2 hrs talk to your bookkeeper to get funds ready to wire and the supplies had been sold to someone else at 2x your price in the 2 hr interval.

So we went into the black market. You wire $50k or $500k to a stranger and then hope they ship, not even sure what quality you are getting. But at the same time, you can see staff members wearing garbage bags instead of proper gear and see them wearing a handkerchief bc no N95s, so you felt the pressure to resolve the issue.

I had friends in Europe and Asia that offered to ship supplies that they received from their health depts for free btw. So the fact is, other countries were able to procure this stuff.

Also, our hospitals and medical systems always operated on the basis that the CDC functioned like an insurance arm - when the pandemic hit, we had always been trained from the beginning to think they would help us manage it. No one told us the plan would be after work, each of us go on the internet and scour for random strangers to buy masks from or PPE. I was able to procure some through friends that own a construction company. We were outbid by others but through friendship able to secure the order!

Had I known that I would one day be my own FEMA/CDC, I would have spent less time studying medicine and more time making friends with vendors.

This is not normal.

Now I am thinking, should I also be making friends with sandbag vendors for flooding? Iodine suppliers for water contamination, etc? If so, why did I pay millions of $ in federal taxes over the last decade?!

Finally, I like to ignore what people say and focus on what they do. But, in this case, while they were not giving us resources and people were dealing with patients, Trump was on TV talking about how much of a failure we are (btw President Xi during that time period offered to send us supplies, which is really mad if you think about it). If you want to know what they may have been saying (may bc it's not proven, but the timing and actions fits very accurately to the on-the-ground scenario), you can read this:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/09/jared-kushner-let-the-markets-decide-covid-19-fate

Although I don't assume this is definitively true, if it is not, it only points to the most incompetent leadership in modern history.

And if any President in the future, let's say Biden, sees a hurricane hit red-Texas and says, "sorry you guys get your resources together on your own because you didn't vote for me", I would say FU to him too. Either there is a real social contract or not. Many ancient civilizations had a way of dealing with traitors like this!

anonymousbk,
But some people made a lot of money and that's all that counts.

@anonymousbk - I am so sorry for what you are experiencing on the front lines. I only have two healthcare professionals in my inner circle (one an MD and the other a hospital administrator), and the only thing I can say is that I cannot wrap my head around what they have shared with me. It is too awful to be true. The stories are so awful that i am more inclined to chalk them up to mostly extreme incompetence; I do believe there is some degree of corruption/profiteering/revenge mixed in there, but even knowing some of the characters who are more than complicit in thisstuff to be greedy cheaters when it comes to increasing their personal material comfort, I cannot believe what transpired was intentional. However, the fact that we ate even contemplating that it was highlights the sad state of our country.

But to be clear: While maybe not intentional per se, what transpired was foreseeable under the free market ethos that these people swear by. I do believe DJt, Jared et al view the whole thing a bit like their own version of The Hunger Games. They just don’t care about people dying, and honestly, I don’t think they even pretend to. DJT does nothing to hide what he is. The problem is not that he is a callous racist; the problem is that his supporters don’t care/are too.

" Were you to present specific allegations backed up by affidavits from those with first hand knowledge"

-mcr, you send a link to a policy statement at best. No facts whatsoever. Yet you complain about facts and people believing what they want to believe. If you showed some logic on your thinking as to why DPA would have worked, even then I could deal with it. I dont agree with Anon, but I can at least see his logic flow and his attempt to make his case. You claim facts, but not one single post on this topic by you has any facts/backing , baffling.

In truth, I did not expect much. This topic has been batted around more then one would wish. You really did not have much of a chance on facts or a defensible position, because as you saw, there is just about zero in actual cases and facts to prove your point. But your mistake was to assume that a person taking the opposite position must be deluded in some way because you just hate that guy currently in the WH. As I mentioned before 1+1 =2 no matter who sez it be it a trump or Biden supporter. If you keep your feelings/emotions out of it, you will have a better chance at understanding both sides vs if it helps Trump, it must be wrong.

by the way mcr, in yr AA , Tiananmen and now DPA posts, you dont post any facts at all. But I figured that was just your style, wax eloquent and move on. It makes for good reading, but not really good for any type of debate

@knewbie - I have no interest in debating you; I said I was all ears for what you had to say, and, as expected, found it to be such nonsense that I I just added this to a list of issues in which you and I disagree. have no interest in convincing you or anyone else on here of anything. However, every once in awhile someone says something so absurd that I feel compelled to say something (such as your lecturing anonymousbk or streetsmart or anyone else on anything). The record if our dialogue soeaks for itself, and I am confident that a poll would not yield a result in your favor. With that said, I look forward to your sharing more of your brilliant insights on economics, history, what have you with all of us on the real estate forum.

PS - More power to anyone if they can understand what argument knewbie is trying to make. Maybe George could step in and translate? Otherwaise, as stated, I am going to continue listening tp the healthcare providers who are in the trenches and have first-hand knowledge of what they write.

And finally, I hope all the typos in my posts highlight how much I care about convincing anyone of anything. Only an idiot engages with an idiot, and I have proven myself to be an idiot more times than I can count on this forum.

Not sure that I can translate knewbie. Where is Anton?

Well said anonymousbk, the Dotard is indeed a traitor who never care about people's lives. And the even worse part is there are so many people still supporting this traitor.

Boom! There you have it.

anonymousbk,
Could you give us some insight into what we should expect over the next 6 months between any "2nd wave" vs vaccines? How bad are things going to get this Winter?

@30 yrs

I wish I could predict this but a large number of variables make it difficult. I don't think the vaccine will be available at scale until at least end of 2020 or beginning of 2021.

I don't expect the vaccines to dampen the current spread of the virus by the holidays this year. Right now we are on pace to have over 2000 deaths/d by then. A few doctors have calculated 4000 deaths/d by then. I would take these with a grain of salt as one superspreader event or lack thereof can cause drastic changes later.

And the faster the virus grows now, the longer the vaccination efforts will take to have true impact.

I'm optimistic that I will be eating at restaurants and traveling by spring or summer but many "ifs" in that guess. What I am hoping is that many vaccines get approved and run in tandem as that may reduce logistical bottlenecks. Nothing of this scale has ever been tested in public health at this speed.

And I am mainly speaking at a national level. In NYC, we are doing better than most of the country in this round, so I don't expect to see a repeat of April nor do the hospitals but we are prepared.

Hopefully, NYC continues putting pressure on anyone from the outside as this is the best bet to control it on our small island.

Practically, I am urging all family/friends to take care of dental and/or elective things that are bothering them sooner than later, because if we go back into the "gap" things could be slowed down again for months. Hopefully, not!

"Only an idiot engages with an idiot, and I have proven myself to be an idiot more times than I can count on this forum."

MCR, hilarious :). You and George w some real comedic material today LMAO

@ToRenoOrNor - It’s either laugh or cry these days, and I’ll take laugh any time it is available. George’s comment made me laugh out loud and then Anton came in over the top. Nice!