Two Northside Piers

when is projected completion? and did you get a sense of which units would get views/be blocked by edge/northside piers 1?

i believe you that it might be an improvement to the first, in addition to being closer to the water. but then there's the delay and having your capital at risk to price fluctuation as time goes forward. even more so for the potential third tower.

Curbed has had multiple posts about the rat being set up in front of NSP. Apparently the first tower was built with union labor but the second is non-union. Given the disappointing sales of tower one and the huge decline in Toll Bros' fortunes, I'd be very surprised if construction quality was improving on tower 2.

interesting point. the psf does seem lower for tower 2 (check out the r-line studios on the lower floors going for just above $600/sqft). this could either be a function of lower quality. or it could be toll brothers pricing more aggressively w/o sacrificing quality. i guess time will tell...

Seems just as horrible as the first one; plus now you'll be living with a bunch of rent-to-own types who can just abandon the building at whim.

I was there two Sundays ago, nice ground floor showroom showing the kitchen and bath....they told me that was the model apartment. Anyway nice high end fixtures/appliances Meile and marble counter tops etc....but for $872,000 for a two BED/2 Bath...... I giggled when you she told me the second tower is non negotiable and firm! The first tower still has some units left so they might be willing to bend........
Problem is there are warehouses and factories all around especially right across the street plus they will not be developed for at least twenty years! Still looks like a maunfacturing area and won't change anytime soon.

McHale, I admit that I have yet to check out NS2, but I was so underwhelmed by NS1 that I think I've had my fill. And it's not so much about the buildings--I remember the appliances being top notch. As you note, it's the area. It's a HORRIBLE, DESOLATE, HELL HOLE. And I went there during the daytime, before the financial meltdown was in full swing.... With the economy in the tank and NYC tax revenue way down, crime is going to go way up...and my guess is that'll be especially true in a fringe area that looks like the perfect place to dump a body. Long term, of course it's a good bet, but at this point the term is looking so long that it stretches well past our lifetimes. They need to discount the prices accordingly. Can't believe they told you they wouldn't bend!

loftparade,this is subjective, of course, but I think calling NS location "desolate" is innacurate. It is an easy five minute walk from the cool area of Wmsburg, and, think about it, once more units are occupied in those two buildings it is inevitable that coffee shops and cleaners and so forth will locate in the commercial space which is nearby. "Hell-hole" -- are you forgetting it is on the water with many, many units with cool views. Your description would be utterly misleading to someone who was not familiar with the actual site.

loftparade, I'm with jimstreeteasy on this. I think it's a bit much to call it a "horrible, desolate hell hole." Kent Ave is fairly sparse right now, but it is not nearly as bad as you seem to think. There are already residents at the first tower, some existing walkups along the western side of the street (around North 6th and 7th, I believe), a couple great retail spots (Built by Wendy, Om Sweet Om, etc.), not to mention the parks (state park, Grand St park, and the recently opened pier). Once people start moving in to the Edge, 111 Kent, and 184 Kent, I think we'll really start to see the area transform. Yes, people can walk to everything on North 6, Bedford, Berry, etc., but they will also need services just outside their door, and there's certainly room for that stuff to come in. I agree it's not quite "there" just yet, but I'm convinced it will be within a few years. That said, I do think the vast majority of those units are overpriced, and some of those agents better wake up and realize they can't get away with being flip about negotiations.

Jimstreeteasy, by an "easy walk”, you must mean an “easy walk” if you’re packin’ heat! I wouldn't want to "mislead" people who are not familiar with the actual site. I encourage people to go there but admonish them to do it while the sun is out...

Bjw2103, I agree with you that the units are vastly overpriced and that the Brothers Toll must wake up and realize that they are in the midst of an epic decline in real estate prices and adjust their prices accordingly. Sure, in 2019 this area is going to be edgy cool and look sort of like the East Village circa 1999....and in 2029 this may just be a place where edgy families raise their edgy kids, like the present day East Village....and in 2039 this may just be an established area. But I refuse to pay East Village prices for a location that, at this retarded rate of development, is slated to become the present day East Village in 2029!

it's not desolate. there are restaurants all over one block east. on wythe and N.7th - one of my fav's - DOC wine bar. warm, italian, excellent wine-really wonderful. N. 6th street has so much between berry and wythe. only 2 blocks away. there's the big tops supermarket in fact in addition to bars and restaurants. oh, and the music hall of williamsburg that's open really late is also right there. if you can get food, clothes and entertainment within a couple of blocks i think that qualifies as services right out your door bjw2103.

i don't think that some of you know this area at all. this precinct is one of the safest in the city in fact. there's no projects, no low income housing - nothing bad at all.

and, loftparade - as a parent involved with the local parent's community - we are there already. the piers are zoned for PS17 which is a 5 star school in math and rated well with the DOE. in fact, i'd argue that it's a way better area than the east village because williamsburg does not have the crush of frat boys and bridge and tunnel idiots that puke in the streets screaming every weekend like in the east village.

personally, i don't care one way or another if people like the northside piers, but the characterization of the neighborhood is just wrong.

wisco, I completely agree - there's pretty much everything you need nearby. My point was mostly about Kent Ave itself. I think you'll see a fair amount of retail move in there once most of those buildings are well occupied, and you'll literally have many of those same services outside your door. These new devs will add quite a few people, so there will be opportunity there. I agree that it's a very safe area as well, though inevitably you'll see petrfitz comment here about toxic oil fields and machete gangs, but he's pretty laughable to begin with.

loftparade, the vision you have for the area in 2029 (that is, "edgy" families raising kids here) is happening right now. Seriously.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2009/02/toll_brothers_g_1.php

&

http://curbed.com/archives/2009/02/05/curbed_pricechopper_northside_piers_flirts_with_a_firesale.php

Thanks, mutombo. I'll admit, my apparent prescience on the overpricing of NSP was pretty lucky. I'm not surprised though; they've got their second building going up fast and still have ~70 units in the first tower that have been sitting for at least two years (I think) now. It's a smart move, though I'm not sure how sensitive potential buyers are to price cuts right now. People are just afraid of buying anything until the general economy gives us a little more confidence.

We all have to be MORE conscience how we spend our dollars.

From a tenant

Lets just say I didn't want to do this but I live in Northside Piers and we are quite frustrated with Toll Brothers. To prove that I live in the building, I'll put the project manager's names out there (John Gullixson, Mark Cordasco). To say that the residents are upset is an understatement. Here is a current list of issues which the sponsor just can't seem to fix.

The entrance to the building faces the river. At times the wind is so strong that when someone opens the door to come in with groceries it will create such a vacuum that all the elevators will shut off and stop working.

The water in the building comes out brown not only from the kitchen faucets but in the bathrooms as well. Numerous complaints have been made, tests have been ran with the DEP and DEP says that the water outside is perfectly clean. So either its an issue inside the building or DEP is lying (unlikely). The water pressure is awful and sometimes you have to wait upwards of ten minutes to get hot water in a building that is only half full!

The sponsor promised a 'fresh direct fridge', the fridge they brought is smaller than your average fridge. We thought it was going to be a walk in type fridge or else how do you store all the groceries for multiple residents? You can't even store one delivery worth of Fresh Direct.

The building hasn't implemented a key system so the building staff has no idea who has what keys. Contractors sometimes walk into occupied apartments without any notice.

The roofdeck the sponsor promised is abysmal. Out of the entire space that the roof deck compromises they took 70% of it and blocked it off with partitions for the pent house apartments. For a building of 200 apartments, there is literally maybe 350 square feet of space, I kid you not).

The gym isn't ready because Toll Brothers can't even get the TCO for the bottom floor right.

Thats just a scraping of the surface of bullshit from Toll Brothers.

If they want to sell these they have to get their act together.

Happy New Year!

mutombonyc. Getting on this message board late so don't know if you'll ever see this, but has the situation changed/improved since you posted?

Anyone in contract at NSP2? Any indication of when the first units will close?

bigfatphil,

I don't know if the situation improved, if I have to call it, I will say no.

I apologize for the late response.

Mutombo. What is the recourse for you as a tenant if Toll Brothers doesn't live up to their end of the bargain? If they say they will provide a larger refridgerator and they do not, is there anything you can do?

Does anyone know if Toll Brothers has a good/bad reputation with other highrises around the country. Someone mentioned that it takes 5 years to work out the kinks of a new building. I don't really want to buy at NS2 and then wait 5 years to be in a building I like.

Thanks

Mutombo, thanks for the response. Do you still live there?

Don't worry minocqua look into 70 berry street on North 10th

Let's clear some stuff up: I have lived in NSP1 for nearly a year now, and I have NEVER experienced any of the problems listed above. So, either that posting was fake, or these issues were resolved a long time ago (before I moved in).

phil, just to clarify - mutombo is not a resident there. He merely cut and paste an anonymous comment from Curbed. It dates from late 07 or early 08, so as cheeseburger said, it's apparently not that relevant anymore. I'd avoid putting too much stock in 2 year old Curbed comments and check things out for yourself - these are things that are pretty easy to verify on a visit or two.

Thank you, Cheeseburger. I'm pretty close to purchasing a unit in NS2. I would really love to be able to talk to you if for only for two to three minutes.

Please email me at northsidequestions@gmail.com and maybe we can set up a time to chat.

Minocqua are they lowering the price for you?

Which unit

Hi cheeseburger.. I would love to hear comments from a real occupant too. I am pretty close to purchasing too but they want me to sign contract in a few days. I feel it is rushing things a bit, especially since they are adding all sorts of clauses in their contract book such as not defining a proper closing date ( anytime thru may-july).
Plus, they are offering varying incentives such as a 10% reduction possibly. Anyone bargained beyond these margins for tower 2?

I hear you can't get cell phone service, either.

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/brooklyn-foreclosures-not-just-in-east-new-york

Hey, I'm happy to answer any questions about NSP1 (and give my best guess re: NSP2) on this board, but I'm not that interested in emailing outside of it.

hey cheeseburger... can u email me at new2nsp2@gmail.com please? thanks a lot!

Oops I just read what you said in your post a little more clearly, cheeseburger!
What would be your general living experience at NSP 1 in terms of
- maintenance paid
- general ambiance considering there may have been ongoing construction while you were there
- management's willingness to address building issues like leaks, cracks etc
- any issues whatsoever with amenities like heat/ water

And any other general experiences you may have had.

I understand. No problem at all. Here are my questions:

- How long have you lived in the building?
- How long do you see yourself staying?
- Do you rent or own?
- Do you ever use the doorman refridgerator that the complainer mentioned?
- Do you drink the tap water?
- Do you ever use the roof deck?

Thanks

CB:
Maintenance -- building has excellent financials, so common charges have actually been reduced across the board since I moved in, and even frozen for a two-month period (so I'm A-OK with that!).

Construction -- was over by the time I moved in, and I'm not bothered by the construction that is occuring on the surrounding buildings. It will be over eventually and I really think the waterfron will be a lovely site.

Management -- has always been quick to respond to any issue.

Heat/Water -- no major issues.

M:
I've lived in the building for almost a year. I own. I'm staying for a LONG time (10+ years). Doorman will usually put my frozen items in the refrigerator if I'm not at home. Other Fresh Direct items come from the truck so cold anyway, it doesn't matter if it takes me an hour to retreive them from the doorman. I always drink the tap water. And I rarely use the roof deck. I prefered the pier when it was open.

cheeseburger, who's your management company? Any insight as to what their fees are? Much appreciated.

Penmark is the management company. I don't know anything about their fees. Sorry.

Very helpful, thank you.

Thanks CB for the replies!

One other question about the tax abatement. If the abatement say $10/month and it is a 25-year abatement, does the property tax hold at $10/month for 20 years and increase 20% yearly AFTER 20 years?
Or does some form of increase happen yearly starting after the first year?

curious_buyer - yes, i believe so, it holds for 20 years and increase 20% yearly after 20 years

No, I think the abatement is steady for 25 years and then one big jump in year 26. It's not like the 15-yr abatement (which increases in years 11-15).

I'm currently in contract at NSP2. I got a 6.6% discount when I signed last year.

Hey Guys,

I am seriously considering getting a studio or one bedroom in two NSP. I was thinking of the edge too but their apartments are smaller and prices are higher. I have a few questions:

1. The Edge claim to have higher quality of construction (union workers, materials, etc.). However, does anybody really think that the quality of 'construction' will bother me or a potential renter? Can you really tell the difference? I mean NSP looks good enough for me.

2. I am thinking of occupying the apartment myself (who wouldn't want that), but might rent it out in a few years. How much do you guys estimate I could rent it out for? I was thinking of studio anywhere between $1700-$2000, and one bedroom anywhere between $2200-$2500. can you guys throw in your number?

3. amenities - is there a real difference in the level of amenities between NSP and the edge? forget the basketball court. How many times a year will you use it? once? twice? I think the most important is the gym, pool, sauna, jacuzzi, rooftop. How are they in NSP compared to the edge?

4. distance to the L train bedford stop - I walked the walk a few times, took me about 7 minutes. On google maps it says it is a 9 minute walk (0.5 miles). So it is not the best location in this sense. Do you think it will bother potential renters when comparing this building to a building 3 minutes from the bedford stop?

5. value - do you think apartments in either project will rise up in value when the economy gets better? I mean there is a third phase planned on both buildings. There is the domino sugar factory. There are tens of other projects in the area. how can prices possibly rise when the competition in the area is so tough?

Thanks for all the help guys!

Personally, construction quality most importantly involves the exterior walls and ceiling/floor; this is critical because it effects how much sound you hear from other units and they from you....this is an important issue to many people. windows are also important. I'd be surprised if nsp wasn't ok on these issues.

Common area finishes and internal unit finishes don't matter too much to me so long as the unit doesn't have some highly in-your-face "design" element.

I'm also thinking about a studio at 2NSP. I'm having trouble picturing which views are better though and how 2NSP is oriented in regards to 1NSP. Basically, where is the first Toll building in relation to 2NSP?

Would a studio facing north or south have better, more unobstructed views in the future? I'm looking at the D or J studio lines.

The 1st building is southeast of the 2nd building. It shouldn't get in the way of your views, but if they build the 3rd building (which will be to the southwest of the 2nd), southern views of Manhattan will likely be compromised.

Ok thx cheesburger. So the North view seems to be the way to go.

I am in contract for a J line unit. North is the way to go bro. Nice northern exposure, can catch some of the water view too. Now if only they'd build faster so I could take advantage of that tax credit set to expire in April and before mortgage rates start climbing. God damn it...

I was trying to figure out that J line layout. So, is the "den" actually going to be used as a bedroom but they can't call it that because it has no windows?. It's a real pity that the NSP buildings have so few balconies. The Edge really fought to get approval for more balconies I was told (by the Edge). The cost is 750 psf or higher if on higher floors. Does this J line have a clear view north. If so, it must be cool...

I was looking at the J line too, but wonder if a king size bed could fit in that 'den.' If so, I'd try and get one for sure. But I dunno?!? A bedroom right by the entrance to the apartment? Not my cup of tea. *BUT* the layout is nice if the king bed could fit. And yeah, if there's no window, they legally can't market or call it a bedroom.

Now I'm thinking a south view would be best. I'm thinking the D line will be the most popular, but the prices for D lines are insane!!

FYI, I went to check the place out this past weekend and I didn't have an appointment, so I couldn't view one...they were all booked up. Guess 2007 RE attitudes are back.

I forgot to ask another question that I think is key -- in that J line (or whatever line) is someone in an adjacent building looking in your glass fishing bowl (maybe someone from The Edge)?

I've physically been inside a J line unit since it's near the fringe of the shore line the Edge building is far enough away that you won't have anyone looking into your unit. If you're further back towards Brooklyn like the G line then the Edge building gets closer, and your Edge neighbors will be 50-75 feet away. I've also seen the size of the den. It would be tough to fit a king size bed in there but probably doable with a little pivoting. Living room is nice a big, bigger than most studios and even most 1 BDR.

You will not be able to fit a King size bed in the J den... you'll have to stand on your toes to get around it. The room is 7' 6" wide (90" total). A king is 76" x 80".

Thx for the answers about the king sized bed. I only planned on being able to get in there. I don't want/need to go around it or fit any other furniture. Just enough to keep my bed out of the living area.

I'm a big fan of studios and have lived in one for almost 10 years and that's why I asked. I think the J line has the potential to almost be a 1 bedroom. Larger studios with this type of layout in Manhattan, Brooklyn or Queens are rear.

Thanks again!

LIC_Queens, so you gonna buy?

Maybe. But I want them to drop the price a whole lot. And I want to be able to walk in and actually see the completed apartment.

WBfirsttime - a nice apt will get a high rent from either a 30ish single person with a real job or a couple. in a few years at 3K + - know several paying that now in less polished bldgs.

1bdrms in a nice wmsburg bldg are renting for >$3000/month. Is this true?

kiz, no. Some nicer 1BRs are going for high $2000s, but I have yet to see anything over $3000. That's nuts.

Thank you guys. I actually looked in the layouts a few times and have been to the building to take a closer look. I am seriously considering making an offer now...

I am thinking between the G, C, or B lines since they are the best one bedrooms in the building.

which line do you guys think is the best?

If I decide to buy cheap I might even go for the E line. What do you guys think of that one?

I like the C and the E line the best. Not fond of the B. I like the G, but I dunno, still prefer the C/E.

Has anyone been to the penthouses? How is the wind?

what do you buyers think is a reasonable ppsf?....personally i wouldnt buy there without some manhattan view (the brooklyn view is bleak bleak bleak)

jimstreeteasy, it should be lower than what they are currently offering(10% off list price and closing).
I say on the high end $600.

G line is nice if you are above the 9th floor.

can you get a nyc skyline view (or decent partial view) for 600psf?....

At 2 NSP? No.

700 psf at the low end.

silverxnt, do you really think that there's a big difference in the eastern view between 7 and 9?

I have been to both, a few times, and I think that looking into that top floor of the building (with brooklyn view blocked) is not so different than looking at the roof of that building and seeing partial brooklyn views (one NSP blocks south eastern view).

I think the major advantange of the G line is that it is a corner unit with a long living room which has a more spacious feeling due to the fact that it is surrounded by windows. You also get midtown manhattan views.

do you think that it is really critical to be on the 9-11 floor vs 7 or 8? I agree that 12 and above are the best, but prices there are significantly higher than 7-11 and that's b/c of the balcony and better brooklyn view...

how would you compare G to C or B, where you get a home office and southern exposure?

WB, it all depends on how important the view is to you. to me, if i'm going to be paying this much money for a G line condo, I'd better be able to see clear over the roof of that community housing building. with wraparound windows in a unit like that, it will definitely pay long term to have a nice clear view. that's my personal preference though, maybe the view isn't as big of a deal to you. the G line however does have a nice manhattan skyline as the northern exposure even as low as 7th floor so if you don't mind the brooklyn view or lack thereof due to the building blocking you on 8 and below, 7G's a good one, not to mentio the psf on G is better than most units, it's got tons of space. I haven't seen C or B so I can't really comment, but I can say that I'd pick the manhattan view over the brooklyn view any day.

Thanks Silverxnt. The only other concern about the G line is the very small badroom, and it's a shame, since the living room is very spacious. Do you think a small bedroom will bother future buyers in case I decide to resell?

WB,

The best line ay NSP is.......none of them. Get your head out of your tuckus. This crap is going nowhere. Try talking to someone who won't make $ off of your decision and walk away.

Has anyone looking to buy here ever taken the Bedford L train at 8AM?

Good luck with that.

WB,

We were looking at the same lines you are:

G line at the low floors seemed dark as the eastern windows were shaded by the low rise building combined with the northern exposure. You have to strain a bit to see Manhattan as the Edge does dominate the view. The long foyer/entrance is wasted space that you are paying maintenance on. The small BR did concern us but wasn't a major issue (it might be to others).

The C line den is way too small. Maybe it can be used as a work nook, but I can't see it as a BR. For us it would have just become a closet. Not worth paying extra maintenance

The B line is our favorite. Very efficient use of space. Decent maintenance. We did love the southern exposure and the southern view (which really won't be blocked if they build Tower 3). We prefer it to the northern view. The BR is a decent size as well as the LR.

Check out the F line. We didn't examine it, but the layout looks pretty good. There is a limited southern view but the main view would be eastern (if on a high enough floor)

positivecarry,

Any station one stop out of Manhattan is going to be crowded. Take the Vernon-Jackson stop on the #7 line. Or Queensboro Plaza stop on the N/W.

LIC,

Notice how you gave two options. Wiliamsburg only has one. I've lived it. Sucks.

Ask someone who lives there how they got to work when the subway went on strike a few years ago.

positive...Is that your basic issue -- the morning commute due to unpleasant crowds or having to wait two or three trains? Evening is more spread out over time so less critical? I read that more trains have been added since you lived there?

jim, the L train is way way better than it was even 2 years ago. One of the few instances where complaints actually effected a suitable response.

positivecarry, you're forgetting the J/Z and soon-to-be V. There's also the B62 and G, though those aren't as convenient obviously. But there are options.

how did anyone get to work during the strike?? I had to walk from the east village down to wall st. point being is that transit stikes affect everyone.

Anyone having trouble getting an appointment to view 2NP?

No. You can just walk over to their show room. It's open a lot of hours.

I've been twice and both time shave been told there are no appointments, but would I like to schedule one the following week. I have an unusual work schedule so I can't make an appointment a week in advance. Strange.

And I've gone when there was bad weather, thinking people would cancel and I could just hop right in their place.

Jeez, what is this 2006 again. :)

Does anyone have an idea of when Tower 2 will realistically be ready for occupancy?

Went to NSP2 this week, and they said Fall move in. Prob starting in September. NSP2 has not gotten the C/O from the city yet. Promenade is supposedly done and waiting to be handed back to the city.

Does anyone know what their current incentives are?

First time I was in NSP2 (two months ago) they said move-in in late spring. Then they said early summer, then late summer. Now you're telling me they're saying Fall? What is going on there? is that normal for new developments? How farther can they postpone it?

as for the incentives, they were emailing a 10% discount (and also told me in person). I don't think they are offering it anymore. Is that okay? If making an offer, should I take the listed price as the starting price or the 10% discount price as the starting price? and how low would you make an offer for a one bedroom apartment in the building?

What are your thoughts on the EDGE vs NSP2 I currently deciding between a studio which is convertible to a 1 br compare to the a 1 br at NSP2, similar price point and sq ft. NSP2 has more light, more windows to the outside (views of the building, street and the rental component court yard. The EDGE less light courtyard view. But layout seems a bit more spacious, no hall way. However, CC at the NSP2 is approximately 100 cheaper. Which one would u guys pick? How would you compare the two buildings? Built quality ?

At the Edge, the usable square footage is about 75% of what they quote. the alcove studio I saw, you would not be able to fit a full size bed and a night stand in the alcove area. And they would have to make the closet doors sliding because you wouldnt have enough space to open them outwards. the 1br i saw at the edge was very good sized. nice places, but th whole project is shrouded in such mystery and they wont negotiate on price so that leaves no choice but to wait until they finally have closings.

NSP2 squre footage is much more accurate. they will negotiate as well. Id rather do biz w/ Toll Brothers than the Edge because Toll has much more capital and access to it than the people at The Edge. Right now I'd rather go with NSP2, but depending on what happens w/ the Edge, i may end up there just for the golf simulator.

I'd have to agree with marco_m and I'd go with NSP2 over the Edge for the apartments you mentioned EDGEvsNSP2.

Actually the Edge studio was more spacious in comparison between the NSP2 1 br apartment, layout was kind of awkward and felt less spacious. What are your thoughts on the risk purchasing at NSP2? Closing deadline is so unclear sometime in the FALL? With the wait I will be forgoing the 8k tax credit and with interest rates going up doesn%u2019t really help. How does the NSP2 compare in comparison to the EDGE's amenities.

marco, how did you find out the usable sq footage of The Edge is 75% of what they quote? thanks

I personally measured.

marco, thanks for the good info.

For the ppl that got their appartments recently how much of a price cut did you guys got and any closing cost credits?

and what line was it for

On this list service and others I have found that the price per square foot at NSP ranges from 600-750. I wanted to know if people in the group are applying this metric to get an approximation of what an appartment should go for? For example a 1400 sq ft apartment should go for 840000-1050000, or an 1800 sq ft apartment should go for 1170000-1350000. NSP website list thse apartments for close to 1000 sq ft

Is NSP2 LEED certified and what is difference in cost savings to you as a tenant?

Does anyone know if NSP2 is still offering 10% off the list price? I heard that they aren't doing that anymore...

Today Curbed says they've lowered the prices on some units, but it seems like it may be temporary.

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/04/08/more_limited_time_only_price_cuts_at_northside_piers.php