Question: Prices for Prime Brooklyn

I am in that market, and I am seeing $400-$600k for 1-br, mid$500-up to a million for 2 br. A lot of factors influence those prices, but I have to say that anything halfway decent (large, good condition, near subways and amenities) on the low end of those ranges seems to moving into contract pretty quickly. I've only been watching things for 3 months or so, and only a couple have closed in that time but a bunch of them have gone into contract.

Interesting, with prime Brooklyn, I still see them at mid $500K to about $700K for one bedroom, and low 700s to over a million for two bedrooms.

I think cleanslate is right. 20 Henry, right down the block from me, just opened up and office on Clark and Henry and they are asking an incredible amount for a one bedroom around 746 square feet. Total cost was over $1000 psf with few amenities. I'm shocked how relatively high prices have stayed. I went to One Hansen just to look at their new price decreases and they are still very high per square foot by any standard.

Cleanslate has been out there looking and I think he would agree that prices haven't come down noticeably yet and I'll bet he is waiting for further drops when developers finally recognize NYC's increasing unemployment and its relationship to cost of home ownership.

Prices will come down. Be patient.

Many (and I mean, MANY) Brooklyn (private) sellers and developers are delusional. I have seen some old, dumpy, vermin-infested coops with absolutely no amenities in the $800 to $1,000/sf range. Also, there are some new constructions in HERRIBLE areas in Brooklyn in the $700/sf range... Even in the peak time, I can't imagine anyone paying that much for those properties.

I guess they are hoping to sell, still believing that their neighborhoods are "up and coming" because nobody has really told them how the market has become in Brooklyn. With SOME good new constructions slashing prices, though, I am sure those delusional sellers will eventually get the idea.

I have been following the area for about 6 months now. As of right now, the only good deals to be had are on very marginal blocks (i.e. 378 baltic, 433 warren) which have considerable sacrifices to be made in exchange for reasonable pricing.

I think that prices still have a way to come down. I will most likely bite when I can get a decently sized 2BR on a block like Henry & Kane street for ~$600psf.

For what its worth, park slope seems to have buildings with better pricing, but many that I have looked at seemed to need significant work done and/or had high maintenance and zero amenities.

I will also add that if you walk around the local RE brokers (at least in cobble hill) you will find that you can rent a very nice 2BR for around $2500 which is far cheaper than the cost to buy right now.

Agreed, new condos in particular are still massively overpriced. I've been looking at co-ops, and I deliberately filter out the $800k one-bedrooms because I think the sellers are delusional. There are some nice places out there, but if they are priced with any degree of sanity they are moving pretty quickly, it seems.

obviously the last year or so has been nutty, but traditionally, prices have declined as you moved from center of BHeights toward cobble hill and then caroll gardens. CH has definitely pick up on getting nicer, but train proximity is a factor... though schools are changing it a bit. So, I might figure to subtract 1% with each block further from Montague (and same goes the other way, to the fruit streets). Of course, closer to promenade is a pro in BH, and distance from BQE is a pro in CH.

But I figure CJ should be a little cheaper on average.

I think PS, outside of park-facing, will be closer to CH, a little lower even (more variety, but more at the low range).

BH, I think it really depends on the specific blocks. But the part down by 6th ave / dean... to me, I feel like I've seen stuff that would be 75% more expensive if in prime cobble hill. I think distance to projects or atlantic ave or major traffic sections can REALLY swing prices in Boerum.

^ agree. You really need to evaluate BH on a block by block basis. There are significant negatives associated with the proximity to the projects as well as high traffic areas like 3rd ave and atlantic ave.

The BQE is another significant negative. I have lived 1 block away from BQE in CH and the traffic noise throughout the night takes some getting used to. Additionally there is the occasional very loud car crash in the middle of the night. I would be cautious about getting into the condo's at Tiffany place or along Hicks street without carefully considering the negative environmental effects posed by the BQE. I would consider Henry street as the closest street to the BQE that is acceptable from a noise/fumes perspective.

Here's a decent floorthru on union street near the carroll F-train stop in CG
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/342500-condo-332-union-street-cobble-hill-brooklyn

By my estimation, the place seems somewhat small but I would be interested in it if it was closer to 500 than 600.

As a broker in this area, I agree with much of the above, but have some other thoughts as well. One of the reasons Cobble Hill (and lately, Carroll Gardens) are priced higher than much of Park Slope is their school districts. Families tend to buy in PS 29 or PS 58, and seem willing to pay the higher price to stave off private school tuition. If you're not looking for a specific school, you can usually find better deals outside those district lines. Take it into account for resale, too, as long as those schools remain desirable. Although, as we all know from streeteasy, you will not be able to resell your apartment in your lifetime...

junkman_r_u_serious - I love Tiffany Place, and the Brooklyn waterfront in general. It does attract a different buyer, though.

junkman_r_u_serious--just curious as to what sacrifices you'd have to make for 378 Baltic? 433 Warren I've seen and I'm guessing the fact that it's almost inside of a housing project is what you are talking about--like literally inside depending on where your windows face. 378 Baltic is down the block from housing projects as are plenty of other buildings in prime NYC nabes so is there something else?

Not a Tiffany Place fan. Much of it overlooks a parking lot on the "good" side, and all overlooks BQE. The renovations seems to be from a time just before they starting doing nice loft rebuilds, it feels like a 70s low end co-op apartment building to me. Yes, park will come in 20 years, but I think you are talking a lot of compromise. I'd rather be on the "right" side of the BQE near trains and then cross over if you need park access...

378 Baltic, is that really worth the price? It's pretty close to the housing projects, few amenities if there is even one, no washer/dryer in the unit and the quality is so-so. I'd rather pay 650K for one bedroom in a good neighborhood and for the convenience than pay 400K for a so-so unit in a so-so neighborhood cuz either way I'd feel they're both overpriced but I won't be able to enjoy the so-so unit.

You're better off going to Park Slope and start looking at the buildings near 4th Ave because most of them will tell you bluntly they are negotiable and most of them are good quality. I even heard past 12th street, there are a lot of new devts, but I stopped bothering going to any of them after I saw The Vue which is a joke for their overreaching price and for that neighborhood.

BTW, I checked out be@schermerhorn also. But just the fact that they do not have a washer/dryer in the unit is already against them. There's just too many buildings out there to choose from in Downtown Brooklyn with more than 100 units and not even 50% sold, none of which I am interested until they show some competitive price reduction.

cleanslate--ok so do you think 360 Baltic is worth the price? And I don't know of any condos (new or prewar) in that hood that have like gyms or any amenities really. How about 335 Warren St? I mean are you saying none of the developments in this nabe are worth anything or just 378 cause they all have similar proximity to train (under 2 blocks) and relatively low common charges for what you get -- which admittedly isn't a lot but not everyone wants to pay for all the bells and whistles.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/360-baltic-street-brooklyn
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/335-warren-street-brooklyn

It is on the same block as 378 Baltic and although the units have better quality, they are way overpriced. As I said you're better off negotiating with those buildings near 4th Ave in Park Slope. That's how I feel about it.

I'm not sure which building in Warren Street I've been but I remembered one near a subway and right at the thick of the projects. And I can honestly tell you that you are better off with your money buying a house in the Bronx for the same price in a way better neighborhood, with lots of space and possibly the same convenience to the public transportation.

I agree with slate.

I really wouldn't generally recommend anything in Cobble Hill / Carrol Gardens south of court street (even blocks between smith/court are fairly different than just one block away). Those are serious projects, and it really changes the neighborhood.

For the money, I think you end up with better value being in the better part of a "lesser" neighborhood than the worst part of a "hot" neighborhood. It will probably be safer as well.

Bronx definitely has some, but I don't know it as well. Consider even Sunset Park. MUCH cheaper.

Here's an interesting resale - in Boerum Hill, heading towards Atlantic Center. Great for transportation, services. Not a plush bldg, needs updating, but...
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/274975-condo-497-pacific-street-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn

(not my listing!)

I think you need to factor in a huge discount for being so close to the projects (Baltic/Warren). I wonder what the brokers say during open houses if you ask about it? I imagine they try and play it off like it's no big deal, but the reality is, there's nothing "luxury" about it.

The projects aren't desirable, but living near projects doesn't necessarily make the area a war zone. My main problem with Baltic street is that the street itself is very ugly, and I personally do not find the businesses on Hoyt street such as dry cleaner, bodega, etc to be the kind of places I would want to spend much time in.

As an example, take a walk in the area and walk on Baltic between Smith and Hoyt and then go over 2 blocks to Wyckoff between Smith and Hoyt. Effectively the same distance from the projects, but Wyckoff is a pretty tree lined street with nice looking brownstones rather than the treeless and industrial looking Baltic street. If you need to take any trains from Atlantic/Pacific to get to work, you will be walking along that ugly part of Baltic and the ugly part of Hoyt every day. These types of things are important to me, but it clearly does come down to personal preference.

For what it's worth, apparently 360 Baltic has sold out
http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/11/checking_in_on_25.php

I would spend my $900k elsewhere.

Whoah shocking .. and I'm not entirely sure believable as I was just there like last weekend and they had 3 of the 9 units (I think) still available. How could the sales velocity pick up that much in less than two weeks at close to asking price? Yeah .. I don't know.

> The projects aren't desirable, but living near projects doesn't necessarily make the area a war zone.

Doesn't need to be a war zone to be worth a lot less. I have generally found that the closer you get to those projects, the higher the crime goes and the less well-kept the blocks are. Prices also follow this trend.

nyc10022, I don't disagree. The only time my car has been keyed was when I was parked a block away from those same projects.

Here's a good example on 8th avenue in park slope in 'The President' which is a nice building. The kitchen looks a little dumpy but it is a block and a half from grand army plaza which is a much nicer location than the new developments on Baltic. This is on the 4th floor and the ask is 699. What looks like the same layout on the 8th floor sold in may for 785.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/358657-coop-90-eighth-avenue-park-slope-brooklyn

what's the consensus on the Satori at 340 Bond Street?

kimerama, that isn't the worst location in the world, but it's not particularly desirable either. I haven't seen these units, but I'm pretty sure they've already seen a reduction with zero (or very low) sales so far. It's close enough to Carroll Park and the F/G stop, not to mention all the stuff on Smith and Court, but I'd be wary of being that close to all the unsavory surroundings by the canal. That said, I'd thoroughly explore the area and see how comfortable you are with it. There are some projects further up on Bond and when you venture across the canal, 3rd Ave is quite the contrast.

bjw2103--Yeah I actually don't really like that hood no matter how nice the apartments. I prefer the area further up north. It's interesting to see what sits and what doesn't now and for what reasons.

Another example of pricing in the relative area. This isn't exactly prime brooklyn, but it is conveniently located to major transportation and is sufficiently far from undesirable things like the projects and canals full of industrial waste.

2 small bedrooms and 955sqft for 655 ask ($685psf).
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/346359-coop-422-state-street-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn

According to next-tag.com this same unit last sold in September 2004 for 520 ($544psf), or 20% below current ask.

interesting update:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/360-baltic-street-brooklyn

only two units actually closed (also checked ACRIS) and the remaining seven are now all for rent. guess they didn't sell out after all.

I guess the Brooklyn glut is here...

No one is signing new contracts in Brooklyn lately. They can all be in denial but imagine the amount of inventory that at some point or another they need to get rid of. Quite frankly, they really should negotiate now or lower the prices now than wait later when everybody is willing to negotiate. Not my problem though. :)

just dont consider williamsburg as part of Prime Brooklyn unless you consider toxic waste plums, roving gangs, unemployed hipsters and massive unbuilt capacity as amenities.

petrfitz, first time Williamsburg is being mentioned in this thread and you mentioned it.:) If we start counting Williamsburg as prime, then all of Brooklyn will be prime including Bed-Stuy. That's quite a low standard there.

Prime brooklyn as opposed to subprime manhattan (LES)?

Those "new" rentals at 360 baltic are priced in the stratosphere

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2008/12/rentals_at_360.php

These developers are clearly out of their minds. You can get an amazing place in real "prime" brooklyn for these prices.

Agree that the Brooklyn glut is here. Especially downtown Brooklyn (for those that can stomach living in the area). I have seen a lot of units in the better neighborhoods in Brooklyn become 'temporarily unavailable'. I guess people are either giving up or waiting out the holidays.

I know I'm in no hurry.

"Prime" brooklyn is so screwed.

I posted this in another thread, but I can't find anything I like in BK. My search is for "cheap" 1 BR's in Cobble Hill, BK Heights, Carroll Gardens, & Boerum Hill (although, not towards 4th ave) under 400K. I've been using the same search for a really long time, and there is just no decent inventory (Not interested in new construction). If Prime BK is screwed, you'd think I'd be able to find some bargains... not so.

I mean screwed in the next 3-5 years sense.

But, if you say you aren't finding bargains, I'm not sure how you're defining bargains. Tons of stuff down 20%.

Granted, a bargain about to become a bigger bargain is no bargain at all. So I agree in a sense.

oh great, nyc10022 agrees with you, broadwayron you should definitely take comfort from this guy's opinion.

vwear/tech_guy, thank you for adding so much to this discussion. You are the savior of mankind.

thanks EddieWilson for your valued opinions on life

Concord Village has 1 bdrooms for under $400K. You are in Brooklyn Heights, perhaps not "prime".

between downtown and dumbo... i wouldn't call it prime prime, but its definitely within the prime neighborhood set.

many good comments here...I used to live in Cobble Hill, between Court and Smith. In those days Smith had no high-end restaurants, gangs ran the street at night, nobody would shop at the Met Foods on Smith because it was too scary to go down there. (this was early 90s)

How times have changed. Still some things are worth remembering: the G train is what old-timers call "the train to nowhere." It only runs in Brooklyn and Queens. If you are thinking of a place close to a G/F stop, don't kid yourself that two trains stop there. Only one train that's useable stops there, the F.

Same thing goes for stops of the C/G. The G train, alas, is useless.

Also: Boerum Hill has many projects. They are no doubt better than they used to be, but there are many. Apartments close to the projects will fall in resale value as the recession drags on. Many people believe it will take 5 years or more before the US starts to see real economic growth return. So during the next several years incomes will fall and joblessness will rise. If history is any indicator, that means crime will increase in poor areas, ie in and around the projects in Boerum Hill.

As for Concord Village, I once dated a guy who lived there and thought the apartment had zero character (not much more than the guy unfortunately ;-(....) however if prices fell low enough I might be persuaded to think about living there, in spite of the high maintenance. It is a very practical location, and if you were on an upper floor the traffic from the bridge might not bother too much.

Still, Concord Village is far less valuable than prime Bklyn Heights and should never be confused with such.

I agree with the skepticism about Tiffany Place. I think its proximity to the BQE makes it kinda awful, but people seem split on this. I have a good friend, life-long Carroll Gardens resident, who really likes Tiffany and would buy there if the price hit the right point.

Overall, I think the pricing in prime Brooklyn is even nuttier than current Manhattan prices. There should be a price differentiation between Manh and Brooklyn on acct of the commute. Even in prime bklyn, a commute to the west village is a real 30 min and to midtown is a real 45 min., and that's just the train time. Walking to your final destination adds more, so for many Brooklynites, the daily commute is a real hour (I say "real" to diffentiate from broker-speak.)

Also the Slope is 15 min farther from the city than the Heights, hence the discount that some here noted already exists in ask prices. I personally love the Slope but part of its charm is its distance from the city. It is the farthest out of the prime nabes.

If you lived there you would not go to Manhattan museums on lazy Sundays very often -- not as often as you think you would -- nor to any other spots north of 42nd Street.

You would end up being sort of a quasi-suburbanite on weekends, but it would be better because Brooklyn has fewer cars and is more hip. Still, it wouldn't be like living in the city.

That was my experience anyhow during a 9-year stint as a brooklyn resident. I always *meant* to go to that cool thing in the east village after work, but if you go home first, once you get to brooklyn, you just can't force yourself to go back to the city on the same evening.

Anyhow, none of this is priced into current asking levels. Brooklyn is not the same as Manhattan. Once the market gets more rational, that difference will get priced in and Brooklyn levels will fall.

well said... a good overview.

Concord Village is not a consideration for me... that's about as prime as a McAngus burger is "prime". I don't want to buy in any project-esque building. I wouldn't have a real problem renting there, but I'd never buy. (I checked them out years ago, and absolutely hated them.)
I'm not considering downtown BK prime, either... yeah, it's close to the other areas, but it's worlds apart.

Nice input GraffitiGrammarian, thanks.

> yeah, it's close to the other areas, but it's worlds apart.

But also more expensive....

You might not love the hood, but you can't leave out the most expensive stuff, or you're misusing the word "prime".

Graffiti Grammarian - no way is it a 1 hour trip from prime Brooklyn neighborhoods to Manhattan, EVEN if you have to take the much-maligned G train. It's actually more like 30 minutes (give or take 5-10 minutes), door to door, including walking to and from the subway. I know this from experience living in Windsor Terrace, Williamsburg and Fort Greene. Use www.hopstop.com if you don't beleive me.

Many of us in Brooklyn have cars, so on the weekend, it's a quick little drive into downtown Manhattan (maybe 10 minutes, with no traffic), really no problem at all.

So I have no idea where you lives in your "9 year stint" in Brooklyn - Canarsie?

Sorry, typo - should be: where you lived, not lives.

"Graffiti Grammarian - no way is it a 1 hour trip from prime Brooklyn neighborhoods to Manhattan, EVEN if you have to take the much-maligned G train. It's actually more like 30 minutes (give or take 5-10 minutes), door to door, including walking to and from the subway"

Try the F line, which hits more of brooklyn prime than any other single train.

I know tons of folks in Cobble Hill with 1 hour commutes door to door... and they work in Times Square.

Its not that the F distance is big, its that the F pretty routinely stops in between stops.

And williamsburg? huh? Maybe if you work on the L line. If you add in the switch everyone has off the L, NOBODY makes it in 30.

Fort Green, if you're near flatbush. A/C? Then 30 minutes is just a lie.

"Many of us in Brooklyn have cars, so on the weekend, it's a quick little drive into downtown Manhattan (maybe 10 minutes, with no traffic), really no problem at all."

Yes, on paper. Now actually try it...
Ever tried to park downtown? Even on a weekend...

The "quick commute" line about Brooklyn is the oldest broker lie out there...

I am not a broker, just a long-time Brooklyn resident. I agree that the F line takes forever - when I lived in Windsor Terrace (Fort Hamilton Parkway stop), it was 40 minutes, door to door, to midtown. When I lived in Williamsburg, it was 30 minutes. Fort Greene was about 35. This is door to door, to my office in midtown. It did NOT take 1 hour. Again, use www.hopstop.com for an estimate of the door-to-door time, if you don't believe me.

As for driving, yes, I park in downtown Manhattan on the weekends, on a regular basis. Really not so hard, and the trip is literally 10 minutes from, e.g., Williamsburg.

first off, stop trusing hop stop. It once put me on the wrong train for rush hour to yankee stadium.
I don't need you and a web site to tell me how long trips I've taken have taken.

But, even for arguments sake, I picked an address in Cobble Hill 5 blocks from subway. I put in an address on 8th ave in the 50s, also 5 blocks from the subway.

It came up with 50 minutes...
And, looking up the times, it is not putting in for delays.

It works of train schedules, not actuals.

And, in terms of williamsburg, if you lived INSIDE the bedford stop, you're still talking 20 minutes to get to 8th ave, plus a switch, plus riding it, plus the walk when you get out.

Explain how that is 30 minutes again?

I am not "using" hop stop - I am referring to my personal experience of living in those neighborhoods (F line is the worst, but still only 40-45 min, door to door), and suggesting that site as a form of objective verification.

Regarding your 8th Ave / 50's destination, I can't speak to that, since I work on 6th Ave / 43rd. Do you commute to 8th Ave in the 50's?

I briefly lived on N. 7th betw Bedford and Driggs (yes, practically inside the Bedford stop) and it was about 25 minutes, door to door - L train to Union Sq., transfer to B/D/F to 42nd. Maybe my office is just very convenient, still I think 1 hour is, to put it mildly, a load of crap, since I lived in Brooklyn for about a decade, in 3 different neighborhoods.

> F line is the worst, but still only 40-45 min, door to door

I can introduce you to 20 cobble hill residents who will disagree... and thats one of the CLOSE neighborhoods.

> Do you commute to 8th Ave in the 50's?

No.

So, for Williamsburg, if you live inside one stop, and work in another, you are accurate, but somehow everyone else who doesn't (and can live 10 blocks from the subway easy) only has 5 more minutes?

Sorry, but thats just wrong...

> I lived in Brooklyn for about a decade, in 3 different neighborhoods.

Got you beat there, although I left 1.5 years back BECAUSE of the commute, but that doesn't really matter... facts are facts, and most of the world doesn't live in subway stations.

broadwayron:
Would you consider this place, on Schermerhorn between Court and Boerum Place? Not leafy green, but truly convenient to transportation, restaurants, Trader Joe's... Across the street from the Two Trees condo at 110 Livingston:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/365423-coop-96-schermerhorn-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn
I'm not a fan of the (easily undone) reno on this place. Remove the wall between the kitchen and the living room and you'll have an open, lofty space with 12' ceilings and so-so finishes. I have another listing in the B line in nicer condition, but on a lower floor. It's $150K more!
I love the building, and had friends there before I ever listed anything. Smart board management, no frills, but a rock solid prewar with no flip tax and a gorgeous roof deck...

$319k for a mediocre 1 bedroom in downtown brooklyn?

When it hits $200k, let us know.

Don't you think that maintenance is high at over $900? That is main reason the sales price is $399.

Junkman: Duly noted. Most of the co-ops in BH have outrageously high maintenance, with significant underlying mortgages. It's a plus when it comes to tax time, but a burden nonetheless. 96 Schermerhorn is not as bad as some (see 111 Hicks). Some buildings (I'm looking at you, 100 Remsen!) have more significant issues, such as an expiring land lease.

nyc10022:
broadwayron posted the following: "My search is for "cheap" 1 BR's in Cobble Hill, BK Heights, Carroll Gardens, & Boerum Hill (although, not towards 4th ave) under 400K. "
That's what I was replying to. Although if it hits $200K, I'll be sure to keep you in mind.

you're calling downtown Boerum Hill?

In the post above the BH I was referring to is Brooklyn Heights. As pertains to its co-ops. And their maintenance fees.

I gave the specific address. Although if you take streeteasy's word for it, 96 Schermerhorn is in Brooklyn Heights.

Yeah, I won't take that either..

110 livingston is clear downtown to me. It was a municipal building next to all the other municipal buildings...

...which are next to all the transporation...

Also, let's talk about building conversions for a moment. 96 Schermerhorn was formerly a law school. It features seriously high ceilings & solid concrete floors. An old-school (literally) lobby with marble and dark wood paneling. A handsome, unfussy, well-constructed building in a central location. In downtown Brooklyn.
I'm a broker, so I see a LOT of new construction. Much of it garbage. Some of it nice. But I can't say that I ever get the sense of physical stability, of massive calm, that I get from pre-war buildings. This may stem from my days as a teenager on the upper west side, but still.

Hey tina,

I grew upon upper west side also in an old building at 320 West End Avenue. (75th Street) Loved it and now live in a great circa 1900 walk up on Hicks and Middagh.

Paid 10% to live in Toren and now it looks bleak that I can afford it. Market killed me. I love new feel of glass walls and view on 33rd floor but must admit I would have missed old time feel if I left BH.

I was at 710 WEA, at 96th, then at 878 WEA at 103rd. Not as nice as 75th, but it was amazing to me back then...

Glad to see the discussion on the timing of the commute...this is the nitty-gritty of choosing where to live in NYC.

My old place in Brooklyn was what would now be called prime Cobble Hill -- Warren St. between Court and Smith.

(Although it might be of interest to know that before the housing bubble, the boundary between Cobble Hill and Boerum Hill was considered to be Court St., not Smith St. So I was technically on what was considered then to be the Boerum Hill side of Court. And Boerum Hill was perceived as a notch below Cobble Hill. However nowadays people consider everything to the west of Smith to be CH.)

Anyhow, I used to take the F train to West 4th all the time, I worked for awhile in the West Village. And it's seven stops on the F from Bergen St., where I got on, to West 4th.

My rule of thumb, which almost always works, is that for every stop your local train makes, add two minutes to your commute. If it's a 7-stop train ride, that's 14 minutes of train time.

(This rule doesn't work for express trains like the A, which cover 30 or 40 blocks without stopping. But on a local line like the F, it pretty much always works.)

It took me about 12 minutes to walk to the train in the morning. There was a entrance at Smith and Warren that was very close to my place but it was closed in those days, you could only exit there; you couldn't enter.

So I had to walk a block farther down Smith to get on the train. That made for about 12 minutes of walking.

Then on the other end, after I got to the West Village, it took about 12 to 15 minutes to walk to my old office.

So 12 plus 14 plus 15 equals 41 minutes. My door-to-door commute from prime Cobble Hill to the middle of the West Village was 41 minutes, assuming the trains ran ok and there were no delays.

But that's an easy commute, many Brooklyn people don't have the luxury of working in the village, they work in midtown or higher up. For instance I have a close friend who lives in Windsor Terrace (prime, about a block from Prospect Park) and she works at John Jay College, which I think it's on 10th Ave in the mid-50s.

She takes the F to get out of Brooklyn, I don't know if she transfers anywhere, but she says her commute is a full hour door to door. I don't know how you could live way down by Prospect Park and work all the way up in the mid-50s or thereabouts not have a commute that was an hour or very nearly an hour -- especially if your workplace is away from either the main subway hub on the west at Columbus Circle or on the east at Grand Central.

Anyhow, pjc, I don't know if a Fort Greene commute is shorter, I have always thought it looked like you could shave some time off your commute if you were close to an A train in Ft. Greene, but I wouldn't think you could shave more than 7 minutes or so.

(As for Williamsburg, I don't know, but I think much of it depends exclusively on the L line, which I am told is the midst of a massive construction project and often doesn't run at all on weekends in parts of Williamsburg, but this is just anecdotal. I never spent much time in Billyberg.)

Also, again, the G train does not go to Manhattan. It's not that the train line is "much-maligned," it's simply that, if you look at a subway map, you will see the G line never touches Manhattan, it has no stops there. It runs directly from Brooklyn to Queens and back again and nowhere else. Therefore you cannot take it to Manhattan.

As for driving to Manhattan from Brooklyn on the weekends, yes it can be done. I currently live in Manhattan and park on the street, and use my cars on weekends. There are places to park, although I shall not mention them here (!).

But suffice to say, it is a hassle and there are certain neighborhoods where you just don't want to bother with trying to park a car -- nor even with driving a car. I hate driving in Soho or Chinatown or Tribeca or even THROUGH those nabes on the weekends, the traffic is just stupidly jammed, mostly with bridge and tunnel people who do not know where they are going. (no offense to the suburbanites, but they shouldn't drive in the city, they only do so because they are afraid to take the subways, they don't know to use them and so insist on bringing their hummbers to town. ugh.)

Driving downtown to go shopping on weekends will not give you a calm, peaceful life, pjc. Do a little yoga instead, and count your subway stops, two minutes per stop, you will get a clear picture of the time involved. Ohm.

I've lived in both CH and FG. The commute to midtown from the carroll street F-stop door-to-door was 45min-1hr depending on train traffic and how fast I walked. Same commute from the dekalb B was around 40-50min door-to-door.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

Check out the price chop on this place
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/166075-condo-536-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

Still looks overpriced to me, and the pictures make that second "bedroom" look near useless. However, this is a wonderful block in carroll gardens. Mazzolla, Lucali, Scottos, health food store, movie theatre, etc all within a 5min walk of that location.

It will be interesting to see what price this goes for as even the ask is well below the pricing in the immediate area 6-9months ago.

No washer/dryer in the unit though?

Good point.

cleanslate - I think there is a w/d. Check the floor plan again - I think they're in that closet-like space off the hallway. I could be wrong, though...

C.G. will hold value longer than F.G.
C.G. has stronger ties to Bklyn Hts whereas F.G. is closer associated with 'downtown Brooklyn' (not as prime as BH), and their "nasty" neighbor is Bed-Stuy.
CG's "nasty neighbor" is Red Hook. Can't compare the two.

Watch it now - I live in Red Hook. I don't want anyone thinking it's less nasty than Bed-Stuy. It's awful. Everyone stay out!

LUCALI. love their pizza. Personally, this block is not as prime as further north. Price a little high for me for this area. We are talking prime here and this block is not even Cobble Hill prime. $625K makes more sense to me. Love the closet space, though. I walk this area frequently during the summer for my fav pizza and we all know that as you go south on Henry, the quality of brownstones goes down for the most part with exceptions of course. If this was up towards Baltic, it might be worth $650.

By quality, I'm talking brownstones that are individually owned and much better kept. This area of Henry is improving but not as many individually owned brownstones.

One note, has anyone seen that beautiful restoration of a small church in this area. It is absolutely gorgeous. I saw it on one of those real estate shows on TV and then walked down there to check it out in person. Stain glass windows in the bedroom and great shapes.

Seems to me that the price chop I posted earlier should put some downward pressure on similar properties in the area.

This 1 bedroom a block north on Henry street for example: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/329232-condo-492-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn
649 seems a bit ridiculous for this when you compare the two.

"C.G. will hold value longer than F.G.
C.G. has stronger ties to Bklyn Hts whereas F.G. is closer associated with 'downtown Brooklyn' (not as prime as BH), and their "nasty" neighbor is Bed-Stuy.
CG's "nasty neighbor" is Red Hook. Can't compare the two"

nointerest, totally agreed.

Also, I figure that old italian neighborhoods are being gentrified in the CH extremes...and they end with the BQE/gowanus/water. Fixed areas.

Fort Green is way too big, has too many projects nearby... and nothing scares white people like black people in a recession.

Ugh, check this out again:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/166075-condo-536-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

It's either that someone is reading the boards or someone just couldn't make up his/her mind. Freaking good luck!

I doubt people take these boards seriously like that. Only about ten people use these boards. Everyone else just laughs at us.

nah, just the folks obsessed with other posters...

Cleanslate,
I saw that price bounce also.

One thing I noticed is that it appears that 555 Henry street is another condo conversion done by the same developer.

Same 4th floor apt at 555 has a better layout IMO
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/106093-condo-555-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

If I were to buy today, I would be willing to offer 600-650 for 555 Henry. That would work out to about $500-$550/sqft if you assume the sqft reported by streeteasy is accurate.

Just based on my observations in the last few months I think we are probably at least 12 months away from seeing $500/sqft in "prime" brooklyn.

I actually think that excluding the condo glut in downtown, the biggest and fastest price declines appear to be occuring in park slope. I'm guessing that relatively high maintenance and longer commutes are pressuring prices but who knows. Note, I'm excluding 4th avenue from "park slope" because 4th avenue is not park slope.

As someone mentioned in another thread before though, buyers really have no incentive to buy right now. There is literally zero downside to waiting and seeing what happens.

Definitely some long-term values in "prime" BK, but some huge huge risk in "non-prime" and crap like Williamsburg/Greenpoint, 1BB Park, DUMBO, new condos like Oro and Toren and Forte

"Fort Green is way too big, has too many projects nearby... and nothing scares white people like black people in a recession."

Not a very pc comment obviously, but there's more than likely a shred of truth in that, unfortunately. But this also underscores one of the problems in talking about Brooklyn neighborhoods. Many are quite large compared to most Manhattan neighborhoods, so there's a lot more "variety" within that area to discuss. Some parts of Fort Greene are lovely, whereas others are indeed facing projects. I simply don't get people who lump Williamsburg and Greenpoint together - that's like lumping the UES and UWS together (including Central Park).

All of Brooklyn is prime and now is the time to buy. Buy in prime Brooklyn now or be priced out forever. Head over to prime Brooklyn and catch that falling knife.

bjw2103 you are crazy.

This is the kind of place that in my opinion should reach $500,000 at some point.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/359874-coop-44-prospect-park-west-park-slope-brooklyn

oh yeah, that one's got a ways to go. The maintenance is too high and that dining area looks extemely narrow. Unpleasant to eat in a skinny space like that.

Here's an interesting one in Bkln Heights
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/364905-coop-30-remsen-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

On the market for just over a month and now "in contract". The current offer price listed on streeteasy implies $659psf.

This place has a weird layout but I can see why this one sold pretty quickly.

junkman_r_u_serious: I'm curious about your reasoning behind the 44 PPW apartment for $500k. The maintenance is a little high for Brooklyn, but the location is great and the layout is acceptable (not fantastic, but acceptable).

junkman, looks like that place on Remsen was combined from two mirrored units. Not a bad layout, but a bit quirky, to say the least. Great location though, and not a bad price at all.

slope, 44PPW looks to be around 900sqft. 500k would be $550psf. Just comparing to the coop on Remsen that I posted today, assuming the current list price is the sale price for the Remsen place, $550psf is a 17% discount to the $659psf at Remsen. I like Park Slope but the Remsen place is a much better location for someone that works in the city, especially if you work downtown.

I don't think its unreasonable for real estate prices to fall another 17% from where they are today.

I know this "analysis" is simplistic, but there you go.

junkman_r_u_serious: good points. I assumed that the 44PPW apartment was bigger than 900sf, but I'm terrible at estimating square footage. I think it is certainly reasonable to predict a 17% decline from today's prices.

Well, someone liked 44PPW, it went into contract. Would be interesting to know the price...
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/359874-coop-44-prospect-park-west-park-slope-brooklyn?email=true

588 Henry chops to 475K, gets a buyer:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/356464-coop-588-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn?email=true

Interesting. Nearly 100k chop. Nice looking layout too (assuming those bedrooms are a reasonable size).

A classic Carroll Gardens brownstone floorthru layout. The bedrooms aren't huge, but I think this is one of the better places/prices we've seen around here. Some discount for location, as it's on the south side of CG, but I love it down there anyway. Closer to Buttermilk Channel (the restaurant, not the waterway)...

It's also close to Le Petit Cafe on Court, which has one of the most amazing backyard/garden areas I have seen.

Here's 2 interesting ones for Fort Greene lovers.
1) 69 South Oxford "2-beds" for $599,000
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/374645-condo-69-south-oxford-fort-greene-brooklyn
This is one of the prettiest buildings in the neighborhood in my opinion. I walked by a few times last year when they were renovating this place. I suspect that this one is the ground for unit on the left. The listing is sparsely populated with info unfortunately.

2) An interesting combination unit at 101 Lafayette Ave for $739,000
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/373234-coop-101-lafayette-avenue-fort-greene-brooklyn
Another favorite neighborhood building of mine. It looks like they combined 2 studios or maybe a studio and a 1BR to make an awkwardly laid out 2BR unit. It seems there is a decent amount of space but I suspect that it isn't really that usable.

536 Henry (discussed above) is bouncing around like a ping-pong ball.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/166075-condo-536-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

Confusion or panic?

junkman_r_u_serious: Someone just moved into the ground floor unit at 536 Henry last week, but I can't find any info on the sale price. Perhaps it is informing the change in price on the other units.

also of interest re: 588 Henry...the owner posted this on brownstoner's forum back in November.

http://www.brownstoner.com/forum/archives/2008/11/advice_for_a_fr.php

I thought it was unusual to 'show your hand' like that, but I guess she did what she needed to do. Wonder if we'll be seeing more of that. I do think it was more of a '1 bedroom + den' rather than a true 2 bedroom.

Another at 101 Lafayette, this time a 1BR asking $569,000
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/364680-coop-101-lafayette-avenue-fort-greene-brooklyn
I actually really like the layout of this one. If I was in the market for a 1BR I would really consider this place. It will be interesting to see how much it goes for. The only real negative I see is that the maintenance is rather high for a 1BR.

The Henry Street saga continues, with 555 Henry St #2 (the building with better layout) reduced asking by $80,000.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/91544-condo-555-henry-street-carroll-gardens-brooklyn

Ok, one more since this one struck me, then I'll stop talking to myself

4 South Portland Ave. in Fort Greene. Recently renovated 5-story townhome transformed into a condo.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/372964-condo-4-south-portland-avenue-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn

I absolutely love the location here. South Portland Ave is a gorgeous street. Very convenient walking distance to all major subways and reasonable amenities on Lafayette Street.

It seems to me that this is the kind of place that would have listed at 900 or so in late 2007.

$700 psf still seems pretty darn high to me....

Completely agree. The pricing relative to the comps in the area is very good though. I can't imagine why any rational person would pay equivalent $psf to live at Toren, Oro, or Forte instead of this place.

At $500psf I would be running out of my shoes to go to the bank and get a loan.