My neighbor is undercutting my price... please help. building at 10 West 66th Street

For reference 6-D last listed at $1.3MM. oldbuyers can you tell me what they paid, since I gotta ask my wife for $10/month to be an insider.... how'z the hungry man? Ummmmm... hot and tasty :)

Don't pop a vessel.... m'okay.... :)

Are you under the impression that people like you, or is any attention whatsoever sufficient to get you through life?

w67thstreet, ignore, I enjoy.

wishhouse... cool!

ColonelKlink... I love that show... :) Can we be friends?

Hate to be a post hog, but I thin this should make someone's day this weekend... :)

Love to cut the tension in the air when both owners are in the elevator at the same time... I'd probably start with, hey i just saw you just reduced the price on your unit ...... :)

I as well enjoy the posts of w67thstreet.

Me too W67.

love your stuff, w67thstreet, you little freak. keep it coming.

I love your New York quirkiness, W67th! It's people like you who make Streeteasy fun!

Ahhhh... guys you are too kind... .but you guys all fell for it... :)

ColonelKink = w67thstreet .... .just kidding.. .sad that someone went out of their way to get a new yahoo e-mail account just to post one item... ala BRABUS ? Agentrachel? oldbuyers? rufus? nah... my old nemesis exit2 TAH-DAH!

#16D just matched the recent $150K price cut on #20D. I doubt that will be the last one.

How about this one?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/339675-coop-239-east-79th-street-yorkville-new-york

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/360623-coop-239-east-79th-street-yorkville-new-york

I actually quite like the sound of this thread. I wish it weren't limited to just one building, though since it has some potential. Who knows, it might become the new "If you can demonstrate market movement with comps..."

Nothing will ever truly replace IYCDMMWC in my heart, but I like this new angle, too. I can see it really heating up going into spring. What's been posted so far are just warm-up races before the main event.

And w67thstreet, you get my vote, too. Feel the weirdness!

This is the best one:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/369684-coop-863-park-avenue-upper-east-side-new-york

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/356198-coop-863-park-avenue-upper-east-side-new-york

What do you think?

I think $1 dollar handovers are possible in 2009/2010!

I must defer to West81st... I'ze likes the IYCDMMWC.. .it is the holy grail of bears... however, nothing like a a little competition on the downside within the same building with neighbors you've been saying hi for 3 years :)

UES-Buyer.. I likey the Schulz (sp?) park... mmmmm... may have to move if it gets closer to $500psf... :)

you're trying to overthrow IYCDMMWC?!?! that will never happen. neighborly competition is fantastic, of course, so post away when you find good ones.

here's an oldie but goodie:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/216363-coop-300-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/315922-coop-300-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

two estate condition apartments, one right on top of the other, with one asking 4.1 and the other asking 5.5. AND the've both been on the market for ages.

sanba.... ding! ding! ding! ding ! you win... holy mother of all that is good and pure in this world... is that a $2MM price discrepancy for the same line in the same building.... oldbuyer that's like 2 million blow jobs from your $1/bj crack addict girlfriend.... OMG!

I've noticed, I haven't been posted anything weird in awhile... oh oldbuyer... even if your "girlfriend" only asks for $.10 before hand and asks for the $.90 after the deed, it's still considered prostitution.... LMAO.... oh one other thing, your wife gives you her youth, beauty and a child and you repay her by getting a "girlfriend." NICE! that makes you a double douche bag... and how were all the open houses? Don't brake a hip on the icy pavement... it's usually the beginning of the end of most old folks :( sad but true....

Have a nice day splicing cables :)

The "C" line at 250 West 94th will be fun to watch:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/250-west-94-street-manhattan
All that five-room inventory isn't helping the classic six #10H any either.

sanba: Check for differences in condition and footprint.

W81... 10H should cut $400K and get the hell out... that's my broker hat on.. :) damn... where'd my sombrero go?

someone should make a $1 million offer for the c line--that is, for any of the apartments in the c line. let them bid for you.

hr... read my post again.. :)

which post should i read again 67?

HR: "I must defer to West81st... I'ze likes the IYCDMMWC.. .it is the holy grail of bears... however, nothing like a a little competition on the downside within the same building with neighbors you've been saying hi for 3 years :)"

Re: "you're trying to overthrow IYCDMMWC?!?!"

67,
i was making a joke, but i was referring to a different commenter who said this would be the 'new' IYCDMMWC. in any case, i am all for posting the neighborly competition.

I didn't mean to start a war over IYCDMMWC. It is my favorite thread on the board, too. Besides, there is plenty of room for another good bearish thread on SE, albeit with a different angle. If there only were more conversations like them...

It's a race to the bottom of the pool! Feels like 1989/1990 all over again. Back in the day, a rule of thumb was, add $10,000 per floor for identical apartments in identical shape. That is now out the window. In today's market it is totally driven by the desperation of the seller. If you don't have to sell...don't, if you have to sell, all bet's are off. The suckers are gone. Only those with money and stellar credit are still in the game. You can't fool mother economics...supply and demand, supply and demand. Today, big supply...tiny tiny tiny demand. Hey, aptometrist, where can I get ayes axamined?

falcogold! welcome aboard our little boat... :) Enjoy the ride...

No worries about undermining IYCDMMWC. That thread is bloated already, and I doubt one discussion can coherently hold all the sub-comp prices we're starting to see.

Aside from threads on specialized themes like intramural price wars, maybe we should start neighborhood-specific IYCDMMWCs for the major sections of Manhattan?

Re: the $5.5M 5A vs. the $4.1M 4A at 300 WEA, Elliman's listing for 5A is a mess. They're also trying to sell 5B at $5.5M, plus the 5AB combo (Harry Belafonte's old apt) at $10-something. The listings for each apartment include photos of the others. While 4A looks livable as-is, 5A needs everything.

The current owners of the Belafonte spread need a sprinkle of the old Disney magic. ;o)

well stated, falco. So, must assume that those selling now are desperate. Otherwise, they'd hold on.

West81st, ;0) indeed. At least she can afford to take her time....

dwell.. .desperate or smart like a fox?

I think it makes sense to have separate neighborhood specific IYCDMMWC threads. We already have one for 220 RSB, and which I assume can be used to track the rest of the RSB Trump buildings.

"or smart like a fox?"
why?

What's ' IYCDMMWC'?

i am guessing if you can demonstrate market movement with comps

Dwell - it's West81st's "If You Can Demonstrate Market Movement With Comps," the current Streeteasy record holder with a phat 869 posts as of 2:11 p.m. today (just got my fix).

I'm beginning to think that the momentum of sheer comment volume on these negative anecdotal blogs is a good indicator of market movement ...

dwell... maybe they r getting out way ahead of the curve :)

"if you can demonstrate market..." thread = IYCDMMWC :) cheers.

This is a nice one... almost $200K for one floor down...
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/94558-condo-2628-broadway-upper-west-side-new-york

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/319357-condo-2628-broadway-upper-west-side-new-york

If I lived upstairs... I'd walk around in my high heels all nite long... :)

west67th,
i really dislike those apartments. the master bath is about the same size as the second and third bedrooms. what is the deal with two sinks in one bathroom? is this a 12,000 square foot mcmansion in a gated community in orlando or a small three bedroom apartment in manhattan? i also think 12x14 is too small for a living/dining for a 3 bedroom. who is this apartment for, exactly? it would be quite snug for a family of four, but clearly they have done everything they can to shoe-horn in that extra bedroom. no wonder it's been on the market for nearly two years.

excuse me, that should read 21x14

W67th/HR: I think 18B and 19B at Ariel East are both still owned by Extell.

They do look like sponsor units.
They should also be on the thread about sqft. 1869? Adding up going across you get 46 ft. (14+10+10+12) that means if it were square, it would need to be 1869/46= 40+ feet deep. I think 1400 ft would be optomistic. That place is like $1700/sqft.
The sponsor may be undercutting themselves, but not the rest of the city.

my favorite neighbor versus neighbor:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/1133-5-avenue-manhattan

Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark!

Jake: They were the last two in... and they're the first two out. The Board of 1133 was probably really happy in May 2006 when those two sales came through. Now, not so much.

12 is listed at the same price they paid in 2006. 6th floor seller has issues. I would guess not too much eye contact when they both get on the elevator unless its fist to eye!

"6th floor seller has issues."

Harvey stiffed her?

2166 broadway... seems to have some kind of battle brewing

happyrenter.... I just like the pool... especially in this weather when walking to REEBOK... sucks ass.... but the layout was the result of the premium of the 3rd bdrm over-bonused bankers wanted. So it looks weird now but 3 years ago... you couldn't chase away buyers/brokers with a dead chihuahua.

Thxs for update West81... even the developer is trying to play some "marketing" magic :)... oh I also liked that fact you let loose on one of the threads... let your hair down once in awhile... it's very refreshing when you have to be so "polite" in real life... you know when you run into your broker friend at Zabars.... or you meet someone and they say... yeah i work for corcoran... etc... .I'd take a porn star over a broker.. .. but then I would have said that since 16.... :)

bb10024... 2166 yep.... a storm's a brewing in that one.... but so are most NYC RE since most apt buildings are built vertically. I'd say the more under-water a building is... the less "friendly" it'll be until new buyers come on that getz a steal.... he/she will be the one saying hi to everyone in the elevator :)

You still have to walk to the pool at Ariel E. The pool is in the other building, no?

jake,

i believe--although i could be mistaken--that the situation at 1133 is even worse than you write. yes, the 12th floor is asking the same price as 2006. but it appears that the apartment has been extensively remodeled in the intervening two-three years. could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

the absolute insanity of the high end over the last few years has come to at least a temporary end. look at the price history on the 12th floor:

STREETEASY HISTORY
05/24/2008
Listed in StreetEasy by Brown Harris Stevens at $19,500,000
09/10/2008
Price decreased to $17,500,000
09/17/2008
Price decreased to $15,000,000
09/17/2008
Price increased to $17,500,000
09/19/2008
Price decreased to $15,000,000
01/06/2009
Price decreased to $12,750,000
01/11/2009
Price decreased to $10,900,000

pick an apartment in the 10 milliion + category, and watch this pattern repeat and repeat.

by the way, in case someone in here is looking for a large family apartment on 5th avenue in the 90s with magnificent reservoir views, the owner of 1133 5th #12 is one M. Thomas (Tim) Grumbacher, the executive chairman of Bon-Ton stores, one of the largest department store operators in the midwest. you can probably guess where this is going. when he bought this apartment in 2006, bonton shares traded between $20 and $30 per share. they peaked in '07 over $50 per share. now, $1.49.

i feel bad for mr. grumbacher and all, but, this looks like a possible opportunity to snap up a killer apartment for a song.

BHS says contract signed on 1133 #12

i guess someone else beat us to the punch!

It will be interesting to see the final sale price on that one. But for know you can use the last ask as a data point to negotiate on the 6th floor. Maybe De Niro will buy that place too? I guess we'll have to keep an eye out on the duplex at 88 CPW. Anyway, I hope Mr. Grumbacher is on the board. Could you imagine after all that the coop board turning down your buyer???

nyc10023.. .thx about the pool... you just saved me some coin...

Jake... i've seen stupider boards :)

New development undercutting:

The Metropolitan version of neighbor versus neighbor:

$2,175,000 181 East 90th Street #22B 2 beds 1,658 ft²
↓ $1,995,000 181 East 90th Street #26B 2 beds 1,658 ft²

Anyone else notice the newer developments are not fairing so well:
Arcadia
408 East 79th #3D closed 12/06/2005 for $885,000
price dropped to $799,000 before going to contract last month. It will be interesting to see where that one clears but it looks like someone lost their short. 6 for sale and only 1 closing in that building in that last 6 months. Not so good.

Cielo
450 East 83rd
Ugh. 16 units on the market, last closing was April '08. Nothing in contract. 25D for sale at $2.995mm and cannot even find a renter at $12,000 a month. And you can have your choice of B lines
7B $1,695,000
9B $2,100,000
11B $1,890,000

Also, not so good.

And just to throw in a conversion:

The New Yorker
1474 Third Avenue
Discounts from the developer all over the place. Good thing the other units have closed because they would not have appraised.

The developer has 10S on the market for $1,595,000 after 8S closed in October for $1,725,000 and 7S closed in August for $1,795,000. Could probably fry an egg on 8S's forehead. Really not so good.

Is this the shape of things to come for new development buyers? Or do these new developments not even make it to the finish line?

sorry shirt not short.

Jake ... as my fishing buddy says... that's a keeper :)

Is New Yorker really a lux building? I walk by all the time and it doesn't look like anything special.

UES-Buyer... we all live in boxes :) but at least its not in the outer boroughs :)

New Tribeca development has caught the neighbor versus neighbor virus too:

↓ $1,695,000 101 Warren Street #830 1 bed 974 ft²

$1,600,000 101 Warren Street #1090 1 bed 979 ft²

And man look at all those apartments for rent. I guess buying as an investor in this building and renting it out for a tidy sum was such a good idea that everyone else came up with it too. They say that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

If you want to run the rent/buy math a number of the rental units are also for sale. And W67thstreet, as my NYPD buddy likes to say.......that dog won't hunt. :)

Interesting race going on at #7D to see which comes down faster - the rent or the price of the apartment.

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind living in the New Yorker. I just wouldn't have thought it was anything special, and if I had the amount of cash needed to purchase one of those apartments and was into the lux building thing (which I'm not into, really) I think there are a lot of buildings I would look at first.

20 West 77th "B" line. Rear-facing (i.e. no Museum view) 2 BR 1.5 BA pre-war co-op; ~1100 sq.ft.

NEW LISTING . #6B .... $1,075,000 (Elliman - Heddings)
CURRENT ........ #7B . ↓ $1,280,000 (Corcoran - Pashby)

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/20-west-77-street-manhattan
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=1073868

These neighbors will go toe-to-toe with overlapping open houses on Sunday. Both apartments are nicely renovated. The last sale in this line was #6B itself for $980K in 2005. Don't know how much of the updating was done prior to that sale.

#7B hit the market in September at $1.595MM, dropped $100K in October and then another $215K last week, by which point Pashby probably knew #6B was coming. She may have to cut again, because one extra floor of clearance over the brownstones on 76th street isn't worth $205K. Interesting that the owners haven't joined forces. Maybe duplexing isn't an option, or maybe the agents told them it wouldn't add much value.

BTW, 1100 sq.ft. is Elliman's figure. I doubt the real size is much more than 1000.

I just realized who #6B is, and why she's selling. Let's just say a few hundred thousand one way or the other probably won't affect her much. The choice for #7B is whether to compete on price or sit tight until #6B sells and hope a low comp won't inflict too much damage.

brutal. i actually have a soft spot for these little apartments--a bit over 1000 square feet, back facing but with views, in one of the best locations in the city, not bad at all. i wonder why 6B is selling at all. if ur right (as i assume you are, given the seller) that she doesn't need to sell, you'd assume that she wouldn't choose now to put it on the market. maybe she just doesn't care enough to worry about it and just wants to unload it.

i may go check these out, i want to see how much the one floor matters for clearing the brownstones.

one more thing: the renovation on 6B looks more extensive and higher end than the 7B renovation. To take just one point: 6B recessed the lighting tracks in the living room, while 7B left them exposed. the renovation of 6B looks so high end, in fact, that i find it hard to imagine it was done by the previous sellers--recessing tracks for lighting is the sort of thing only the super rich bother to do.

HR: Yes, #6B looks opulent, and the current owner most likely footed the fill. I try not to draw conclusions about finishes without inspecting them personally, because photos can deceive.

As for the seller's motivation, my understanding is that she got married, she owns the apartment outright, and her family is hugely wealthy. Or at least WAS hugely wealthy. It would be ironic if they were burned by Madoff or his ilk, since preventing that kind of thing is exactly how they made their fortune. As far as I know, though, they are doing fine, and she's just unloading an apartment she no longer needs.

strange that duplexing isn't even mentioned as a possibility. the building must not allow it.

jake, UES, Westie, HR see how much more fun it is when there's blood involved :)

Westie... you my man would have been the perfect "Analyst" in our group... I would've never had to double check your numbers... you sure you weren't a banker in your prior career?

HR.... if it had one more bdrm at that psf... hmmmm... I'd have to think hard... I do love that block.... and my son's totally into dinos at the moment :)

W67th. I was extremely interested in 6A (facing AMNH) but my husband vetoed (he didn't like the feel of the building) - lingered on the market at 2.6-ish, closed for 2.4ish. Small Classic 7. So it's too bad that 6B is
on the market now, because would definitely have bought it to combine with the 7 rooms in front for 3.5m - with the hallway, of course. And I could have sold the idea of that combo to my husband. Sigh. It's all bout timing in real estate.

nyc10023...wow... $2.4MM ... that's seems cheap compared to what they were trading at but let's see where it all ends up in a little while... :) just hang in there... that's a great block.. esp. when the Macys' parade comes around... let's just home Macy's doesn't go BK :)

See, it's all timing. Even when things were bubblicious, 6A sold closed for a little over 2.4m in the early days of 2006, after sitting on the market through fall 2005 (I think it was priced just over 3m initially then dropped to 2.595 or so). A year after 6A closed, 8A (belonged to opera singer Renee Fleming) sold for around 3.2 (completely renovated) and another unit (forget which floor) sold for more than even that.

What an apt (A & B) that would have been - front facing AMNH and the park, back side views of parks & bstones all the way to TWC. 3 bedrooms in front, 2 bedrooms in back with family room in the back...

I thought this fall that we may have seen the last Macy's parade ever. But there is certainly enough goodwill in the metropolitan area to make it a non-corporate event, with everyone chipping in. One of those things that makes NYC special.

Yeah.. I'd chip in some $ for a parade... :)

Things might get nasty over on park avenue--those folks in 15C are going to be stomping around at 3AM

15C
STREETEASY HISTORY
03/31/2008
Listed in StreetEasy by Elliman at $4,750,000
08/09/2008
Price decreased to $4,595,000
10/10/2008
Price decreased to $4,250,000
12/06/2008
Price decreased to $3,995,000

And now 14C:
01/21/2009
Listed in StreetEasy by Warburg at $3,495,000

sorry, that's for 1165 Park.

5th Avenue and 95, would you prefer the 7th floor or the 12th?

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/1136-5-avenue-manhattan

SALES LISTINGS FOR THIS BUILDING
SAVE Active Listings (3)

1136 Fifth Avenue #7C 2 beds ↓ $4,450,000

1136 Fifth Avenue #12C 2 beds ↓ $3,850,000

This is a terrific thread.

thxs jerkstore....

Now something near and dear to my heart :http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/376410-condo-1965-broadway-lincoln-square-new-york

$400K price differential between them... me thinkz Mike Reed was a former "model" that explains the price difference... you're paying for his good lucks... LMAO.... gota fry some shrimp and compile some code.... later

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/376410-condo-1965-broadway-lincoln-square-new-york

don't know why it didn't take... spockie?

Again, W67th (we must have parallel lives as I'm at the Reebok almost every day) - doesn't the beeping of the elevators on EVERY floor bug you at 1965?

Not as much as senator mitchell :).... say hi to Martin for me :) or did he end up going to Chicago :)

I went to the duelling "B" line open houses at 20 West 77th. The Pashbys had done a last-minute price reduction on #7B from $1.28MM to $1.15MM. (It was $1.495MM two weeks ago; #6B just hit the market asking $1.075MM.) Joanna P. had hastily scribbled the new price on the show sheets, and when I arrived she was trying unsuccessfully to explain away #6B. Anyway, #7B is in a tough spot. #6B is in MUCH better condition, and still beats #7B by $75K on price. #7B does have a slightly better view, since it clears the mechanicals of the buildings to the rear more fully. But the highlight of the view from both apartments is the same: the towers of the San Remo.

#6B is a cute little apartment - a nice choice for downsizing empty-nesters. The "B" line is really a very big one bedroom, and I doubt anyone will pay more than a million dollars to live in what feel like the servants quarters for the marquee apartments facing the Museum.

Westie... you are the man! Don't you love it when competition brings out the "best" in people... people scribbling in new pricing at open houses... ahhh... not much longer till $500psf.

Anyway check out this three way action :)
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/377149-coop-50-west-67th-street-lincoln-square-new-york
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/365128-coop-50-west-67th-street-lincoln-square-new-york

3AB is already combined listed at $3.975MM and 77 days on market.... 7AB to be combined hit the market at $2.95MM.... a three way love affair... :) One other thing.. shouldn't lower units be priced lower? Ahhhh well... these brokers are professionals, they must know what theyr'e doing ......

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/345-east-73-street-new_york

#11C SOLD on 07/02/2008 for $1.110M
#8C is asking $1.195M
#7C is asking $1.125M

All are in nice move in condition, although I have not personally seen them.

UES... this is where Woo method of RE investments can help.... lowball both and say... I'll buy the first to say yes... then buy yourself a nice depreciated 997T with your savings.... have you seen what they're trading for... :) I might take two :)

Don't love the apartment enough to bid, but I agree on the strategy. I'm keeping my eye on Maison East or the New Yorker since I prefer a condo. They both seem to have a fair number of 2+ bedroom units that have been sitting on the market with price cuts. Will prob wait another few months and see what happens and then see if I can get something nice for about 1M.

alrighty... someone has been drinking too much denialade... aka 407PAS.... neighbor against neighbor... game on :
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/358752-coop-407-park-avenue-south-kips-bay-new-york

This doesn't include 407PAS unit... happy hunting all :)

Rentals can play too!

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/413896-condo-245-east-93rd-street-yorkville-new-york
We saw this one in December - it's actually a beautiful apartment, the pics do not do it justice. Area is a bit far from everything, plus the second-avenue subway construction is annoying.

Well, since then, this one has shown up:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/451249-condo-245-east-93rd-street-yorkville-new-york

Happy hunting indeed.

We may have a record:

ales listings for this building
SAVE Active Listings (2)
↓ $7,750,000 130 East 67th Street #45C 4 beds 4,200 ft²
↓ $4,900,000 130 East 67th Street #1011C 4 beds

1011C is an estate, while 45C is renovated (in a totally inappropriate style IMHO, but renovated). still, that's $3 million differential to live six floors lower in the building. 1011C is an estate so unfortunately the owners of 45C can't torture their competitors.

newbuyer.... it's sad to think, but the first unit should have cut rent to $4K when it came out... 140 days to wait.. 5 months w/o income... oh well... If i needed that unit, I'm certain it could be had for $3.8K no problem :)

Gufaw... I almost gagged on my coffee when I saw the $2.85MM price differential... nice find HR... only you leave the dead corpse in there long enough... till the spring selling season... I think you maybe able to "torture" them :)

1011C looks better than a lot of park ave apartments asking over $10 million. that's a fucking amazing apartment.

It's an apartment? From the floorplan, I though it was a soccer stadium until I noticed the wall between the living room and the library.

it's an apartment in a building i've always been very curious about. i walk past it fairly often and it is totally unusual looking. not sure if it's beautiful, but it is certainly a statement!

The 10/11 duplex in the A-line is probably the best comp for the C line 10/11 duplex. The A-line apartment may be a touch bigger of a touch smaller--lower maintenance and slightly smaller rooms, but it has an additional study on the lower floor. In any case, they are extremely close. From the pictures the A line apartment looks to need a lot of work as well, probably a complete redo. It sold for $7.5 million 10 months ago. This gives us a 35% decline.