Skim coating/stripping walls

Whatever you do, remember that you and your possessions can't be in there for it. Also, if you have a young child, are pregnant, or are planning on becoming pregnant, make sure to have the walls tested for lead paint. The process to strip and skim coat the walls is definitely costlier if you are doing lead remediation. If you need a contractor, ours was fantastic, happy to recommend him - probably worth reviewing the property with a good contractor regardless to get some idea of what things will cost.

I think it is about $5,000 for a 1000 sf apartment and OTNYC is right about you not being there (quite toxic). I would also recommend finding out if the cracks are truly paint cracks or if the cracks are due to the building shifting/cooling/heating. If it is a giant block of concrete (as many in NYC are) and the cracks are from shifting, they will not be fixed by skim coating. They will just keep coming back. If that is the case, you may want them to put new drywall up and go from there. You will lose a touch of size, but gain in not having big cracks coming back and driving you crazy.

Any contractor info would be greatly appreciated! Was he/she pushy?

To get smooth, magazine quality walls, skim coating is the prescription. It is also needed for rough walls, old plaster, patched walls. You could go with a flat paint to cover imperfections and patches if the cost of skim coating is too high, but it is an imperfect solution if the walls really are bad. Personally, I dislike the chalkiness of flat and prefer eggshell and it's very slight sheen.

Skim coating is a messy, labor intensive job that involves prepping walls, smearing on plaster-like mud, sanding it (oodles of white talcum-like dust), more mud, more sanding, and possibly more mud and a final sanding. Couple it with primer and 3 coats of quality paint, and for 1000 sq/ft I think you are looking at $15K-$20K total. Factor in the time needed for the process and the cost of where you will have to stay during that time.

If the walls are that bad, then of course the floors probably need to be done too. And somehow I can't imagine a place with such bad walls has acceptable kitchen and bath. My suspicion is you are looking at a substantial renovation. Let us know more (types of finishes you would like, scope of work, whether any walls/closets/spaces need to be reconfigured, and some on here will be able to give you a sense of what you are looking at in terms of ballpark costs and how they break down.

Skimcoating a wall is basically putting a thin layer of plaster/spackle on top of the existing wall -- you get a surface that is like glass. It is, as OTNYC points out, different from lead remediation, which according to law must be done following EPA guidelines. If you choose to simply not investigate the question of getting the lead out of the old paint and plopping on a new, sealing layer of plaster, your super will probably do it for you and you can ask him what he will charge.

To do a proper skim coat, the walls are coated, and then sanded, and then recoated, and then sanded, and then painted, and sanded and painted again ...so realize that it is a very labor-intensive job -- but it is done well they will come out looking magnificent.

ali r.
[downtown broker}

kylewest - you have very expensive tastes/levels of acceptability....not that there is anything wrong with that. It just doesn't work if you don't have the scratch for it. The question was about skim coating and now you have aratner gutting the floors and doing a full reno on the kitchen and bath...haha!

We renovated our place over the past year and it was a lot more fun looking at (and imagining) all of the stuff we couldn't afford to do.

I think $5K is on the low side and would not cover painting. I assume the walls are plaster and not wall board. Under the best case scenario, skim coating has a shelf life of 6-10 yrs. Google skim-coating and get familiar with the process. You can't strip paint from wall board or plaster---only sand and patch and/or tape. Hope there isn't any wallpaper under the paint. Be careful not to let a contractor skim coat with joint compound only---with steam heat after two yrs. it will contract and spider crack in 2 yrs.

before doing anything, i would suggest ascertaining the quality of the building construction. poorly constructed buildings tend to have cracks in the walls and ceilings. this could be an indication of other problems such as rodents, neighbor noise, etc. which is more prevalent in buildings with shoddy construction. wishing you the best with your apartment search.

>>The question was about skim coating and now you have aratner gutting the floors and doing a full reno on the kitchen and bath...haha!<<

And that's just the trouble--once you've gotten one thing looking great, everything else looks shabby by comparison...

Thank you!!!!

The walls seem bubbly in the kitchen and living room, and kind of peely in the bedrooms. We're in a rental now and the walls in our bedroom have begun to crack as well. It seems that in rentals they continually paint over the walls after each tenant, which is what it seemed like in the apartment for sale. The walls need a new color anyways, but I would hate to just keep adding paint to walls that need stripping. Can you strip walls of layers of paint to start over? Or is this the same as skim coating? We don't want a flat paint or any "band-aid" solution. We'd rather do it right the first time around, assuming it's not costing a ton. KYLEWEST you said it would cost around $15k for a 1000 sq ft apt, but OTNYC you guessed around $5k. These are vastly different numbers.

We would also install new hardwood floors. Ironically, the kitchen is brand new and needs NO work! The only things we would have to do before moving in are the walls (stripping and painting), new moldings around floors and ceiling, and hardwood floors. It seems the bones to the apartment are there, which is what makes us excited, but need to think renovation cost before actually settling on an acceptable offering price.

We figure hardwood floor (Brazilian cherry) would run us about $5500 (about 750 sq ft to be covered - kitchen has a nice slate floor already).

You can strip paint off wood. Plaster or wall board has to be sanded. Wall paper must be stripped. To install new hardwood floors you would have to rip out the old flooring. And possibly the baseboard.

Make sure the $5500 Brazilian hardwood floor installation includes removing the old floor and includes replacing or refinishing the baseboards. Also will it match the surrounds for the doorways and windows.

You cannot strip walls. Only sand, replaster, skim coat.

If the walls are plaster, then the paint is chipped back to where it's solidly adhered, if that's the word. Then everything's prepped so the skim-coat will stick, and on and on as described above. If you try to just patch where the paint was chipped off, the texture will never match. That may be OK or not, depending on how particular you are. There's also the technique of applying a sort of canvas over the walls, but don't know how that works. If the peeling is due to moisture finding its way out (rather than due to bad prep for previous paint jobs) then that will happen again eventually. There're always going to be plumbing and radiator leaks from above, no matter what you do.

sjbh - good point, my $5,00 was w/o painting. Definitely check around and get referrals on the contractors. We noticed a much different level of quality when the supervisor was there/wasn;t there and also on how well the workers spoke English/followed directions (not to overstate the obvious).

And yes, definitely make sure the floor price includes getting rid of the old floor. It is another few thousand to do that.

not to be a downer, but I think you need to be thinking about much larger numbers. not sure where you got the $7 sq ft for the floors; think that number will turn out way higher. good luck.

Any contractors in NYC anyone HIGHLY recommends? Would any contractor speak with me on the phone about a general idea of pricing for such jobs? We're trying to get an idea if this apt is even worth buying with the work it needs (also, how to price the work into the selling price).

kylewest your estimate is right on

aratner, I think kylewest is not far off in his estimate for a true, full skim coat. It sometimes requires a layer of mesh to reinforce existing plaster, 'plaster-weld' to ensure adherence of the new plaster to the old, multiple passes with the trowel & screen, etc....it can be a bit more involved than hitting a few spots with some spackle, depending on the condition. It could easily approach $15K w/painting.

columbiacounty is also correct that $7/sf on the floors is optimistic. probably closer to double that for anything with 'brazil' in the name(+ its not very 'green')

What are some "green" flooring options? Are lock-in floors generally better or worse quality than individual wood strips?

aratner, you didn't ask about the floors, but that's never stopped us yet. Skip the cherry. It's overused in all the new buildings, so will shriek "so 2000's" in a few years. As with the basketweave oak from the 60's. Tried-and-true oak or walnut will hold up better.

Oops, *strip* oak or walnut.

Is it generally accepted to have a contractor see the apt before a bid has been placed to get an estimate of cost of renovations?

Waverly: How expensive is putting up new drywall? You mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I seemed to have skipped over it.

that's fine, but the seller is going to think you're going to lowball. if you are going to lowball, get multiple contractor bids to present.

aratner - some basics 1st - is this is a pre or post-war building?

people bring their architects with them all the time.

It's a pre-war building. The place where I see the most damage is over the windows and around the radiators. I worry that the beam (big beam) above the windows is concrete. Can you even drywall over this? I am anticipating having to have radiator covers made anyways. Is it possible that the "problems" and cracking that I saw are just the wear and tear of an old paint job? (And can thus be fixed by a fresh nice coat of paint?! Which is certainly more affordable!)

drywall over leaks is just going to make you miserable. damage over the windows is often a sign of exterior problems which need to be fixed or no point in doing interior cosmetic work.

As people here have explained, skim-coating can mean just about anything to different contractors. True skim-coating is what abe frohman was describing with the mesh, and would cost around $15-20k, or more, for the whole apartment. That was out of our budget, and frankly would've been overkill for an apt of our caliber (pre-war, east of Park). Instead our contractor basically plastered and sanded a couple of coats, then primer & paint. And it looks great. The walls aren't museum quality glass-like smooth, but they are as smooth as drywall walls. For our 1100 sq foot place it was about $5k. Occasionally there are small cracks, but they are easily repaired, and I'm not sure those wouldn't occur anyway given the age of the building, and the crazy humidity swings you get in any apt heated by radiator.

I agree wholeheartedly with NWT that basic strip oak flooring, finished on-site, is the best way to go for a pre-war - its in keeping with the original construction, and you can have it stained to whatever color you like. Plus if you do it on-site, you can test small areas to make sure that it looks right in the actual light of your apartment. Brazilian cherry tends to be pre-finished, and what you like in the showroom may look terrible in your actual place.

columbia, et al are giving you great advice to bring a contractor with you before you place a bid - I would imagine that these days they have time to do that. what you think it may cost to do things, and what they say, can be massively different and greatly affect what you'd be willing to pay for the place, both good & bad - for instance, in our case, the contractors repaired & refinished floors we thought we'd have to replace, saving a bunch of $$.

Printer, thank you so much! You have alleviated many fears of mine. It sounds like skim coating isn't necessary. I don't think the damage is water damage. Plastering and sanding along with painting sounds much easier and nicer on the wallet. The apt is about 1200 sq ft, also UES east of Park. Would you recommend your contractor for other jobs? If so, would you feel comfortable sharing his/her information?

As for flooring, the more I look into hardwood, the more I agree that cherry is not the way to go. Did your contractor also install your floors? The floors need to be changed (they are parquet, a pet-peeve of ours) and broken/discolored.

Yes, my contractor re-finished the floors - I found it much easier to have 1 contractor do everything - that way you don't have to get into he said/she said arguments about who is responsible for different things/who is responsible for timing, etc. Is there a way to get my email to you w/out posting it for the world to see?

Bubbling walls trouble me. It isn't normal. I have nothing against skipping the skim coat--I just skipped it in a major renovation. The walls had some patching and scars from the past, but overall were decent enough to handle eggshell paint just fine. But bubbling and cracking concerns me.

You are also getting into some real money with what you've talked about: floors, base mouldings, walls to start. Demo, removal of materials, and labor for this add up. You need to know what the building requires, too: some say if you do anything you have to upgrade wiring in an old coop. Others want architect drawings for the building engineer to review. While it doesn't sound like it, you have to get official advice on whether city permits and filings are necessary for the reno which involves an expediter (which is currently costing about $5-$6K).

Floors: If you don't mind the "micro-bevel" edges of pre-finished wood, you can go that way to save some money over regular old 3/4" hardwood strips that get refinished on sight. Personally, I think you are better in the long run with the old fashioned way. You can refinish good old hardwood planks for 50-100 years of use. Not so sure any other alternatives are going to give you the longevity. Laminates of course are the cheapest--and in a few years you'll know why if you get them. If you want "green," nothing is greener than bamboo flooring, but google it because there are cons that come along with the pros. Start a flooring thread and you'll get plenty of input on here.

Here's another thing to consider (I'm good at spending other people's money): If you are ripping up base boards, do you want to hide cables and CAT6 wires behind it? Some small cuts in the walls and suddenly you have none of those awful stapled wires running all over your doorways and apartment. How about surround sound speaker wire--can hide that too so those rear channel speakers don't snake wire all over too.

"bring a contractor with you before you place a bid"

very smart thing to do, then budget 30% over the estimate

bring in the contractor and consult reality. good luck with this. keep us posted

I spoke with my contractor and he said for an apartment of this size, he could skim coat and paint your walls for $10,000. He does the job himself. He did a fantastic job for me gut renovating my kitchen. He quoted me $20,000 and charged me $19,500 at the end because he had saved money on the materials. He was extremely professional, honest and dependable. Let me know if you are interested, he did such a good job for me, I want to help him out.

nothing like a quote without looking. run away at 1000 miles an hr. no contractor in his right mind makes a quote without looking.

Paint in the kitchen (behind the sink) isn't my taste anyways, but I figure it's cheaper than tiling it... which is why I mention the little bubbling behind the sink. Can't this just be moisture from the sink? The bones are in this apartment, which is why I am interested. It's big!!! But my husband and I have to question whether it's worth buying something that has "life" in it, in which we can grow, but needs work. I have looked on Home Depot and it seems casing for the baseboards is about $1100 for the apt. That seems negligible in comparison to the $5k for new drywall or $15k for skim coating.

please....please ....please get a contactor...your heart is in the right place...trying to protect your wallet.

Baseboards and mouldings are in abundant supply from Dykes Lumber. They have store on west side in 40s I think. If bubbling is only behind a kitchen sink, I wouldn't sweat it. I thought you meant in living room or something. I didn't read close enough if you wrote that before. Sorry.

Personally, I used an architect to walk me through potential renovation costs at apartments I looked at.

Cost overruns: They don't have to be the given people treat them as in a renovation. I just finished an extensive 4-month near-gut renovation of a place about the size you are talking about (mine's a touch smaller) and it came in within 3% of the budget. The way that happened was by having spent money up front to have a minutely detailed set of construction drawings that left almost nothing to be determined later. I selected every finish and item to be included before hand and they were detailed in the drawings. Everything was specified down to the door hinges, moulding types, paint manufacturer and number of coats to be applied. One contractor was responsible for all but kitchen cabinetry so there could be virtually no finger pointing later. His subs were his responsibility. Any dispute, I just pointed to the bid set of drawings. And since the contract specifically incorporated by reference the drawings, that was that.

There is no easy way through renovations. They are at best tedious and more commonly frought with some level of stress. It is the payoff that makes it worth it for some people.

I think you can get walls you will like for $10K. Your floors will probably cost you $8K though.

ali r.
[downtown broker}

aratner - email me at otnyc1_at_gmail_._com and I will send you my contractor's info. I agree with CC, don't trust a contractor who will give a bid (even an estimate) without seeing the job, although it seemed like nycre1 had a positive experience. Our guy was absolutely fantastic, came in on budget, in time and provided excellent design advice (we didn't use a designer). I doubt he will give you any sort of estimate without seeing the property, but he came by our place about 6 times to do estimates and didn't charge us for a single visit. I have no doubt he will be willing to see the property with you. Also, he specializes in Manhattan properties and is familiar with board processes (licensing, bonding, etc.).

aratner-don't forget the cost to install and paint those mouldings. both are very specialized trades that come with a premium to be done well(i.e., you don't want your painter using a roller on your mouldings, they need to be brushed, carefully). also, for a pre-war, depending on the proportions of the space, your mouldings may need to be built-up out of 2-3 pieces to get an appropriate dimension. a rinky dink off the shelf profile can really take the life out of the space... i believe there are rules of thumb for certain types(like 1"h of crown moulding per foot of ceiling height, or something), but have your contractor do a few mock ups of base/casing/crown and see what looks best to you.

"Printer, thank you so much! You have alleviated many fears of mine. It sounds like skim coating isn't necessary. I don't think the damage is water damage. Plastering and sanding along with painting sounds much easier and nicer on the wallet. The apt is about 1200 sq ft, also UES east of Park. Would you recommend your contractor for other jobs? If so, would you feel comfortable sharing his/her information"

Sweetheart, all due respect but you don't know what's necessary & wishing & hoping won't make it so; therefore, find someone who does know & whom you trust to look at the place before you decide to make an offer. Anything else IMO is just foolish. Good luck! ..... and let us know what happens!!!

aratner - sorry for the delay in responding, as I didn't check the thread until now. The drywall is cheaper than skim coating, but I would only recommend it if the cracks in the walls are not from paint peeling away, but from actual structural cracks in the concrete. This happens in a lot of buildings that are, for all intents and purposes, giant blocks of concrete (many post war co-ops are an example but not the only one). The cracks are structural in the sense that they are happening as the building shifts, gets cold, heats up, etc, but they are not structural in the sense of the building or wall collapsing. They will just keep cracking every few months, so drywall will fix this problem from an aesthetic point of view.

Aratner, have you considered stripping all the old paint on the walls instead of skim coating. Our contractor said it is soo much better and you will neve see another crack. I think the cost is a bit higher but well worth it.

whatever you do, be sure that you aggressively strip all loose, cracked, bubbly, damp surfaces. then seal with plaster-weld and tape any deep gouges. the bubbles certainly must be ripped. it's the prep that counts, and if you haven't dealt as above your paint/plaster job wont last a year. the skimcoat part is easy if prepped properly and done by an experienced plaster guy. make sure that the contractor uses "hot mix" a blend of drywal compound and plaster of paris. and look into plaster weld yourself--it's great stuff--insist on it and be sure it is actually being applied---and check prep generally to insure that all weak wall surface are ripped completely--a decent job on your sized apt should cost 10g or so--drywall is not a good idea as your walls will be too thick for your molding, doorjambs etc.--prep is the key---rip it gooooood

Also our contractor says taping is not necessary after all stripped, just plaster, prime and paint.

I had my apartment re-plastered by an Irish plasterer with 3 coat of traditional lime plaster over mash. There is no sending mess because there is no sanding. Sanding is required if contractor uses compound and is not a real plasterer with a trowel. Using a real plasterer was less mess, harder finish then compound so it will not dent as easily and I had dyi mixed into the plaster in some rooms to achieve Venetian plaster. This was under 2K a room with materials. The original condition of the walls was the worst imaginable.

Ksdg520

Can you please give me the name of your contractor the plaster.thanks

Has anyone used PEEL AWAY on plaster walls? It's a chemical stripper that can be used on a variety of materials, including plaster. We are in the process of buying a pre war apartment which has a thick layer of old paint on walls and moldings. Some of the walls tested positive for lead, so sanding the walls to remove the paint doesn't seem like a good idea. I called a couple of painting companies and lead abatement companies, but all they say is you cannot remove paint from walls (so you just need to paint over them).

The paint on the walls are so thick that I worry the walls will become thicker than the the door frames if any more layers of skim coat & paint are added. I was excited when I found out about PEEL AWAY, but I don't know how much it will cost to strip the 750 sqft unit using this product. I also can't find a contractor who knows about it. Please help!

Many thanks

P,
Peel-Away # 1 will work, but it will be an extremely expensive and time consuming process.The paste is applied and covered with a special paper/plastic sheet and then must dry for 24-72 hrs. depending on wall and weather conditions.The whole mess is then scraped off,and likely a second coat required.After that you will need at least 1 or 2 skim coats to restore the smooth finish on the walls. The cost will probably be $3-$5 per square ft. of wall area treated, not floor area.Skim coating is going to look cheap when compared to the prices you will get for this process.

thanks S.

It's a bummer to hear it won't look good. I was fantasizing how removing all those layers of paint would turn back the clock to the 1920's, when there was only one layer of paint on the plaster. I thought the less paint, the crispier and better it would look, but didn't think about getting a rough surface.. Stripping the paint would at least bring out the trim panels, though, which are currently half buried under the wall paint.

Call me crazy, but I am still interested, despite the frightening estimate of $3-5 per wall sqft. Is there anyone out there willing to take on this job? Please let me know..

thanks

P,
If you really want to do this type of restoration,then I think it would be cheaper,easier,and faster to remove all the old moldings,skimcoat walls as needed,and apply new moldings that match the existing.You almost certainly will be able to locate moldings that match your present ones;there are many sources for them.This would also minimize lead exposure for all involved and eliminate the need for that nasty Peel-Away paste. Good luck!

Peel-Away1 is about $40 per gallon, and each gallon is good for maybe 20 ft² (if one go-round will work) so using it on walls would run into big money.

Since you'd be repainting you'd need to wash down the stripped areas with water and the neutralizer stuff, so more mess. Removing the paint would reveal all the needed plaster repairs you don't know about yet.

I'd go with what spanky3604 and kylewest said, and forget stripping.

I used it once to remove paint from inside a fireplace. Just that little area was a PITA, even though I could skip the water/neutralizing steps.

On the other hand, a couple of buildings in my neighborhood have used it to strip paint from stone and terracotta, and they look great. Don't know what the alternatives were, though.

Would it be cheapter then peel-away just to remove the old plaster and drywall taking the walls down to the studs and replace with new drywall and moldings.

I don't understand are you not allowed to remove the old drywall and plaster and go down to the studs or because of the lead paint you can't do this anymore If not illegal to do this anymore its much cheaper than peel away to just remove the old drywall and put new drywall up I had this done in a small place 675sqft of mine and it cost about $600 in material and $10K for labor a few years ago

I didn't think that there'd be a dry wall underneath the plaster. I assumed that the plaster was smeared on top of lath or brick. Can I remove the plaster down to the lath/brick and put a dry wall? I guess I could, but I thought that would be more work than stripping the paint. Perhaps I was wrong. Anyway, I think I will go with replacing the old moldings, skim coat, then prime and paint, as suggested above.
thanks

Pistachio,

With skim coating and installing the right moldings you can the look that you want. It is not that difficult

I paid 9k for a 700 square feet and it was a job that took the walls down to the studs. Best investment I made though, the apartment looks great. It took 2 weeks.

I am getting quotes around $40k to replace moldings (picture railings, picture frames and baseboards) and window casings, skim coat, prime and paint, strip old paints off of a few doors and frames in a 1000 sqft two bed manhattan coop. Most of the walls are in relatively good condition - skim coat would be required after ripping off all of the decorative moldings. The job would take around 4-5 weeks. Is this reasonable? It seemed outrageous at first but after multiple quotes it's starting to sound like reality.. Thanks in advance.

Jukim,

It does seem a little high. I would be happy to take a look at it if you would like

To view my work www.primerenovationsnyc.com

Jeff