SE in the NYT

Good BROKERS, bad BROKERS, they generally look like what they are.
but seriously, its only a matter of time before we create a new paradigm for selling. In Manhattan apartments are relatively homogenous. I would think some type of auction system that removes the human interaction will eventually dominate.

Reading and posting from iPhone so I can't be arsed to go back and check who said what or exactly what was said so here goes my 2 cents:
I agree with the only other poster who said they always thought w81 was a man and couldn't get used to thinkinghe was a woman with that posting style - thankyou nyc10023. Otoh to paraphrase nyc10023, w81 writes like a man and so does nyc10023. Big surprise to me to learn nyc10023 is not a man.

I thought it sounded a little sad and lonely when I read w81's last quote in nyt. Something along the lines of getting validation as if this were the only way in his life to get that. I know he did not say that but it kinda sorta sounded that way.

Anyway I think westy may have a problem if he is going to proffer opinions on properties for sale because as sandy mattingly (manhattanloftguy.com) found out the hard way the rebny forbids a member from doing what w81 has been doing which is to post about another members listing. Or something along those lines. For those interested I'm sure you can search sandy site for the wording related to his infractions. He used to post honestly about lofts - warts and all - but got cut off at the news a few months ago.

Another honest broker who was prevented from telling it like it is. I fear w81 will face similar problems.

News = knees. iPhone auto correct that I did not catch.

Congratulations west81 - I was another devoted reader and will miss your open house reports as another young family trying to find that perfect apartment on the UWS to call home. Best of luck and look forward to hearing what you will be doing.

In the future everyone will be a real estate broker for 15 minutes.

stop this negative shit....he's walking the talk...lets see what he comes up with and try to help him.

Women tend to use lots of commas, and punctuate, like me. Men, not so much. I'm also big on the parentheses.

"“All of us who were renters have endured a fair amount of ridicule from owners for our caution,” said Michael Waxenberg, 46, an information technology director and renter who is shopping for a three-bedroom apartment on the Upper West Side. “There is an element of vindication in what’s happening now — maybe we were right in trying to play it safe.”"

OMG, are you serious West81st? Did you really say this? When were you ever shopping for a "three-bedroom apartment"? Vindication? You sound like a broker already. Sad, sad, sad.....

Thanks, patient09. It was kinda getting stinky in there: rufus had just come back from his daily swim in Lake Michigan.

In 2006, not sure if he still works there...Michael Waxenberg, WestLB's director of business infrastructure management

I must be a woman then.

columbia, I hope you don't post any negative comments ever again.

Seriously though, Sandy Mattingly had to go back and edit a ton of his posts (that talked about real sqft as opposed to the inflated numbers that we all know and love, blocked views in the future due to construction plans that he knew about, etc.) as a result of this incident:
http://www.realtown.com/SandyMattingly/blog/manhattan-real-estate-business/end-of-an-era-for-manhattan-loft-guy-a-new-day-dawns

W81 will face the same road block if he is going to do what some here are hoping for.

I'm not saying that this is right but surely more information is better, right?

i don't know entirely. i am down with the lovefest for west81st, but the *blush* or whatever comment wasn't exactly whatever. I don't care. west81st can be a tin can wearing cross-dresser for all it's worth to me. but the messages weren't always clear. and that's ok too. is this confusing? sort of. i also have consistently lied in (very) small ways to keep things a bit less obvious.

divvie, i didn't see cc's comments as negative (maybe somewhere else?), and i hope you don't see mine as such. they are not intended to be so

I'm going to be put through stone throwing but here it comes:
I think West81st was getting ready to become a broker for a long while; the reasons are private. It all falls into place now... Discuss.
nyc10023, I never thought he was a she. The writing is masculine, regardless of commas and such. I've known males who write with so much punctuation that it drives one mad.

Somewhere else.

I think we have a good understanding of one another AR so, no, I did not see your comments as negative.

BTW, my comments about nyc10023 were not meant to be negative either, just an expression of my surprise. I guess my obsessing over the school situation in tribeca felt similar to nyc10023's posts about public schools in her zone so I figured she was a man like me who is (still) somewhat obsessed with real estate and education for my kids. Not a biggie. Simply a topic that was discussed in this thread that I found interesting.

I am also interested in peoples' opinions of what happened to Sandy Mattingly and whether, perhaps, the rebny has changed the rules recently because I remember someone alerting Ali (front porch) to very recent changes about broker representation (details escape me) so maybe changes were made in this case also.

Sorry, forgot to add regarding Sandy Mattingly:
Am interested also in other peoples' opinions on whether this will affect what they are hoping w81 will do.

Streeteasy is awsome because of the interesting people posting here. We are exploring gender and grammar on a saturday night! I just got home and I checked the posts on this thread and I laughed and I thought about a couple of things. The NYT article was about SE, not West81st. He was just the emissary of this little piece of change. Congrats to all, hearing my broker's copy as my only RE sounding board was much less interesting!

NYT article was overdone. Blame the messenger. IMHO, SE is just another good source of information, which should be taken with a grain a salt of course. SE does not kill property values - at most it may nudge them in one direction or another, mostly justified. If people get hurt feelings, they should stop posting. If you can't stand the heat . . .

The Atlantic Monthly did an article a couple of months ago saying that the New York Times in printed form cannot possibly survive for much longer because of its dire financial situation. I dunno if things are that bad, but that was the claim.

Sections like real estate are keeping the paper alive. So it's interesting that SE posters are called "snarky" in the headline to that story--doesn't sound like a compliment to me, nor is it a fair generalization of SE postings IMO. I wouldn't have let that head run if I had been the copy editor. One implied subtext to that article is: "See, real estate advertisers, look what happens to you when you leave our cozy protective newsprint for the new scary out-of-control new media."

--Karla Harby. Two X chromosomes, former science journalist, and r.e. agent-to-be (July).

The New York Times compares their plight to Darfur. They show nothing but disdain for internet news sites. Just whisper the name Matt Drudge to a New York Times editor.

So who is going to file the open house reports today? Who has the keen eye, the historical perspective, the architectural sensitivity, and the verbal fluidity to fill West81st's shoes? I miss him/her already!

What do you spy with your keen eye? I didn't even notice the ML boxes until my husband pointed them out.

"but the *blush* or whatever comment wasn't exactly whatever."

Good point aboutready, it's a bit odd when you think about it.

"I think West81st was getting ready to become a broker for a long while; the reasons are private. It all falls into place now"

Makes sense, she/he always said that her/his reasons for spending all this time reviewing apartments he/she never intended to buy was for "private reasons".

Look, I don't care if West81st is male, female, transgender, or an alpaca nor do I care if she/he is looking to monetize her/his contributions to this board but something smells a bit disingenuous about the whole thing.

Har, har. As a long-time UBer and YBMer, my obsession with schools is one shared by many of my fellow mothers. RE obsession - I think men and women obsess about it differently. Men are typically more concerned with price, comps, etc.

My partner doesn't really even know what school zone we're in, is fuzzy as to the exact cost of our real estate - in many ways, we're a perfect match. He just signs on the dotted line when we go to contract, doesn't get involved in the hunt. It's up to me to decide what we can afford. He gets veto power (rarely exercised). Luckily, I am very conscious of the heavy burden I bear, so I crunch numbers obsessively. I wanted to sell fall '07 because of the tremendous appreciation in one year but he vetoed because he loves our current place so much and was willing to take the financial hit.

I'll probably go to a few OHs today but I can't possibly fill W81's shoes.

JuiceMan, West81st has said before that his interest is as a "hobbyist", as with others of us. He stopped chasing the market and rented in 2000, but continued to keep an eye out. Nothing disingenuous that I can see.

10023, in many ways our lives are parallel. I've been thinking about adding some coverage of the downtown market, but I too couldn't come close.

JM, it doesn't really matter. west81st's contributions have been real, his potential is also real. even in his postings earlier he was careful to note that he was creating a persona. i agree that there was some dissembling, which is why i posted the *blush* comment. but i lie too. i wouldn't care if i were outed in the slightest, and some people who know me well could probably figure out who AR is, but I have a family who knows I'm bat-shit insane and loves me anyway but might not want their friends' parents or colleagues to know I'm bat-shit insane. It suited west81st's purpose at this moment, and I'm ok with that.

Just for fun, two x chromosomes were walking down the street and their conversation proceeded thus:

I'm leaving you, Urban Baby. I thought this would be a place to share ideas and discourse with other intelligent mothers. Instead I've found hostility, fury, meanness, insensitivity, an unbridled sense of self-importance and the kind of narrowminded self-righteousness (from both sides of any argument) that is ruining any chance of harmony in this country. If one dares to question the status quo, the prevailing attitude among too many seems to be, "Go f--k yourself." (And, yes, I anticipate that response to this post. Have at it.) The soul-sucking obsession with social status and wealth pervades. I'm truly disheartened to learn that so many women--mothers, no less--are this small and selfish. I'll miss the reasoned and kind voices of many posters (perhaps even the majority of posters), but the ugliness is too much to handle. So, farewell. Perhaps there's a kinder, gentler board out there where moms can have conversations--even differing opinions--without the nastiness.
25 replies

I'll miss you. Not enough nice people on here. Good luck!

It's gotta suck when your dramatic "goodbye cruel forum" post gets double-posted.

ditto. i always have to laugh when someone's indigant, self-righteous good-bye goes on so long they have to cue the orchestra.

Women like to put down other women. Women think other women are stupid. This is what we pass down to our daughters. It's terrible. Women seem to now want to hear each other, hear other opnions. If anyone has a problem women like to say it's not really a problem. I see women side with the system, and even think anyone who has a problem with cartoons at school (for instance) is crazy and needs to chill. Standards are getting lower and lower. It's scary.
It's not a matter of standards. It's a matter of opinion. What's wrong is to tell me I have to agree with other women just because they are women. I'll think what I like and say what I please. If it jibes with what other women believe, fine. If it doesn't, that's fine too.
That's not even close to what I meant. We should all be able to hear one anothers different opinions and even problems and still keep our own. We shouldn't have to call others names or being rude because we're not all the same.

eh. try lurking someplace like the streeteasy boards. the men (and many of them are men) make us look like etiquette school graduates.

http://www.urbanbaby.com/talk/posts/50501366

Well, LOL - either you go all hugsy-wugsy with Babycenter or you go full-on bitchfest with UB/YBM.

anyone ever check out the male-dominated conversations at Curbed or DealBreaker? there is much discussion of certain body parts.

urbanbaby is nasty. bitchfest is right.

aboutready, maybe I'm just bitter that I fantasized about a late 30's, incredibly sharp, yummy mummy, with a killer real estate instinct only to learn that all of that beautiful content was coming from a middle aged, balding IT guy with broker dreams. Damn the internet.

JM, very funny. Broken dreams are painful. But I'm convinced you have the necessary focus to find an alternative.

LOL JuiceMan, we all know better than to do it, but we still do form these images.

Then there's a poster who on some topics comes across as a crackpot conspiracy theorist, yet on other topics as a rational mensch. Makes it difficult to dismiss anyone out-of-hand.

I shouldn't even post this because, well, I really don't care much. However, I find the motivation to deceive on an anonymous real estate message board odd. Perhaps others have much more interesting lives than mine that they need to protect ;). Who knows? Best of luck to everyone, their alter-ego, and that crazy squirrel in their brain that continues to torment ;)

squirrelSSS, uwsmom, squirrelSSS.

i've given up a fair amount of specific info. just tweaked the details a bit.

I wouldn't care, except I've left some trails in ACRIS.

Divvie: Very good points. I will research the issues you raised.

JuiceMan: In its original context, that quote might have been less obnoxious and pathetic. I think we were discussing the dynamics of the Streeteasy board itself, and why 407PAS and others get savaged when they try to defend a listing. I didn't mean that anyone had been abused in real life, or that anyone needs personal vindication from falling prices; just that the discussion on SE gets quite heated, and that both sides are prone to trash-talking when the market moves their way. We've all seen the "Renters are losers" threads, as well as the "Buyers are suckers" threads and the "Brokers are sleazeballs" threads. The vehemence is largely message-board posturing, but when a newbie walks into the crossfire, the result can be an AgentRachel.

Have I been disingenuous? Sure. We all have agendas. The back-story to my obsessive market-watching since 2007 is pretty simple. We live in a conversion. Sooner or later, for the right price, we might buy the apartment we currently rent - or something better, if we can afford it; hence my interest in comparables. Looking back, I probably should have stayed out of discussions of our building. Answering questions about the building without full disclosure probably flunks the sniff test. Go through my Steeteasy e-trail and you might find other conflict-of-interest stinkers.

Ultimately, either we'll offer a service that has value or not. Either changes to the RE business model will help our neighborhoods achieve a softer landing and avoid future bubbles, or they won't. I have no illusions about a weekend warrior overthrowing the brokerage empire. 80sMan is right: after the customary fifteen minutes, we can all get back to work.

Well said.

nyc10023, I just want to know how you have time to go to all the open houses if you've got kids. I can barely get to the supermarket on an Sunday.

I should be getting off my sweet *ss to Citarella and to hit a couple of OHs on the way soon.

Today:
Up at 7am.
Diner bkfast at 8am.
Shopped at Greenmarket (please support them!) at 10am.
Back at 11am while partner had his "me time"
Lunch at home - yummy Zabar's cold cuts from yesterday's shopping trip.
Now - sitting on my *ss procrastinating going to Citarella & OHs.
Okay, signing off now.

"the rebny forbids a member from doing what w81 has been doing which is to post about another members listing."

yet another irony about the damn broker business. isn't that precisely what one hopes to find in a buy side broker--someone who presents their (hopefully informed) opinion of what's what to save you the considerable legwork to sniff it out? yes, there are opportunities to game the system but I would always vote for more information over less information.

how many posters asked specifically for w81st to respond? many and often. we were all responding to the quality and depth of information supplied -- i am naively confident that he (you) will find a way to open a crack in this ridiculous system that encourages agent rachel and her power broker boss and their inane tactics.

West81 - I have been a long time lurker - and an occasional poster. I have found your posts to be very informative and one of the most levelheaded voices on this site (next to Urbandigs). Best of luck!

good luck and thanks W81 and Noah too for trying to shed some light on a very opaque industry. the NY times has been no friend to buyers of real estate and i found it odd that they never addressed why sites like SE even exist. It is amusing to see an entire industry and it's media apologists still in a collective state of denial.

West81st, although you will indeed find your hands somewhat tied by the professional obligation not to talk about other agents' listings, I think you'll enjoy this profession. I wish you many happy years.

Everybody else: I understand the frustration with bad real estate agents because I have indeed met one or two -- but I think you also need to be realistic about what increased transparency will achieve. It will, one hopes, bring a little extra liquidity to the market, and cut transaction costs a smidge.

However, those of you who are not buying just because those [insert derogatory adjective here] agents are in your way, taking their 5% or 6% cut, are not going to buy tomorrow even if transparency increases. Having the Zagat survey around didn't make going out to dinner 50% cheaper, and online chat is probably not going to do that for real estate.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Noah's final quote should have been:

"Emotion enters these discussion forums. You may have someone really upset that they bought 10 years ago and now they're trying to sell, but can't accept that the market is going down 60 or 70 percent. If the property is properly priced to reflect supply and demand, it might actually sell. But let's be honest, most properties are not."

i am surprised by your statement that transparency will cut transaction costs "a smidge." if there was real transparency, how could anyone possibly justify real estate agents being paid on a percentage basis. frankly, i don't see how it's justified even without transparency.

explain to me how its twice as much work to sell a $1 million properly priced property than a 500 K one? as many have noted, when everything appeared to be going up forever, unreasonable transaction costs were just a minor annoyance on the road to ever more riches. if this market persists for any length of time, more and more agents will start cutting their fees because that's the nature of markets.

i don't think people don't buy because of real estate agents; i just think the agents make the whole process just a little more distasteful.

p.s. the zagat survey cost $14.95 -- not a reasonable analogy.

I hear you, Columbia, but the people on this boards who are not buying are waiting for decreases of 20%, 40%, 50% -- even if every real estate agent vaporized tomorrow (and real estate transactions suddenly became frictionless, which I doubt) it still wouldn't create that kind of savings.

And certainly, every commission is negotiable. I'm happy to talk to my sellers about lower commission rates on higher-priced assets.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

I am on the sidelines simply due to price and market timing. We have had a serious correction and I feel we are due for more. Bursting bubbles tend to send asset prices crashing to pre-bubble levels. History is on my side here and no amount of wishing it away will change that.
Front-porch-as long as you and your brethren maintain hope and spout frankly irrational market analysis, the longer it will take to reach a bottom. If I were a broker in this market I would be pushing sellers to get real and try to do more deals at lower price points to maintain my income.

Front_porch or UD, on this thing about REBNY members not commenting publicly on other listings, can a licensed broker operate outside of REBNY, for example, exclusively as a buyer's broker? Do you just not get access to the MLS-like system, or is there more?

cfranch: they are victims of their own system...to get the listing, they have to flatter the seller which often includes quoting a higher price. it is definitely in the broker's best interest to price correctly to move the unit; unfortunately, the seller is the ultimate decision maker on this issue.

I'm interested into the answer to ionada's question as well. How exactly do the restrictions work?

*inonada. sorry about that. and here I thought the username was a reference to non-cpu-bound computer programs.

ali, i respect you, immensely. but the 20-30%, off the summer 2007 highs, is already here.

Frick! I am being petriezits again ;).

*petriezits. sorry about that. that should have read "petriezitsed".

To anyone..I too am confused about this issue of not speaking about other listings. My question alone is probably worth a drubbing, because I lack knowledge on the issue..please enlighten! If, however, there is any grain of truth to the idea that a member of the fraternity is not allowed to openly (honestly)speak of the merits of a property to their customers, havn't they immediately violated many truths thet agreed to uphold? Additionally, they would be saying that the concept of "buyers broker" is and of itself, fraud. Then again, if the cartel is simply saying that you can't "publicly" talk negative, but you can speak positively, then that is a different story.

either way, this should have no impact on many opportunities that present themselves for the likes of 81. Hang a shingle, he,she, offers advise to just his client, about which listings suck etc..etc..Isn't that the whole concept behind a buyers broker?

I think elsewhere I have seen it mentioned that it is only a "public" restriction.

That is a great concept patient09. A buyers broker who would honestly advise the buyer. I would pay for that in a heartbeat! Sign me up!

"In Manhattan apartments are relatively homogenous"

And brokers are taking shit for making ludicrous statements?

I always thought West81st was a man, because my default for some reason is to think of all posters here as men unless they have girl's names or outright state that they're girls (call me a male-chauvinist pig!).

So I was very confused when he wrote a great spoof on a Sarah Palin speech or interview, and someone wrote "her speech was so funny" or something like that, and then someone else posted something about "her" referring to West 81st, and then others carried on the her/she thing.

But then on the other hand, I thought Ali was a Pakistani man until I clicked on her book link, so refer back to paragraph one of this post.

Anyway, West81st's posts have been amazing, and I'll really miss her candor.

columbiacounty: It's simple (and you'll see what happens as values erode): when people are making a pile of money, they don't think twice about paying 6% (or whatever) because all they see is how much profit they are making. So, even as prices went up, and commissions went up, there was plenty of champagne to flow for everyone. on teh way down, and people are losing money, all of a sudden eveyone starts to pay attention to the "ridiculous" fees. But it's a double edged sword: who is to say which is the right one? 6% of $1,000,000 or 6% off $500,000? yes, it's (around) the same amount of work, but maybe it's that the $500,000 is too low, not the $1,000,000 is too high (ok, a better example: a guy walks into your office and want to rent a $1,000 a month studio: you show him a "no fee" $900 a month studio which he takes. Your brokerage firms and the exclusive listing firm split the $900 1 month OP - owner pays - and then you and your firm split the $450. So you did a transaction and got $225. Anyone want to talk about sympathy for the broker on than one? If not.....).

About 15 years ago I had GMAC home finance as a client. I got them to pay 8% commision, because most of the stuff i was selling for them was under $100,000. I made my splits with other brokers so that anything under $100,0000 I gave the selling broker 5% and kept 3%, between $100,000 and $200,000 I split it 4% and 4%, and over $200,000 i kept 5% and gave the selling broker 3% (because at that number, they were doing 3% co-brokerage all the time with everyone else). Trust me, though, based on the mix of low priced properties I was dealing with, i was still getting the short end of the stick overall. of course, no one ever complained when I was giving away 5% and only keeping 3%, but the 2 or 3 times I kept 5% and gave 3% they cried like I was stealing from them, even though they were getting the exact same 35 they were getting on just about every other deal.

Unfortunately, I doubt I'd be able to do the same thing today under REBNY, but it would be a dis-service to my clients, because it would make it too unattractive for brokers to show my clients properties when they were low priced.

What is the right number? is it a fixed fee? Why is it different for Real Estate? Is it that much more difficult to sell a $5,000 handbag than a $200 handbag? I'm not sure 'difficulty' is the only yardstick" if someone is in the business of selling $10,000,000 apartments, they probably don't sell nearly the amount of units as someone selling $1,000,000 units. So, if you have 2 brokers: one who sells 20 $1,000,000 units every year, and one who works the exact same amount of hours and sells 2 $10,000,000 units a year, should they make the same amount as each other or not?

NYRENewbie:"That is a great concept patient09. A buyers broker who would honestly advise the buyer. I would pay for that in a heartbeat! Sign me up!"

With all due respect: no yo uwouldn't: the same thing happens in RE and Law (and accounting to some extent). th client finds the "professional" who tells them what they want to hear and hires that one. It's almost the opposite of what you're saying: people tend to pay for a "yes man" rather than paying for someone who will give them the best advice they don't want to hear.

I actually had an argument with a whole room full of RE brokers and developers about 20 years ago in an NYU "continuing ed" required course which was a survey of different lecturers. I don't remember how it came up, but the issue at that time (and this was before all these sites and public info was available) was about why there wasn't better sources of the type of info we have now about pricing, trends, etc. I argued that the problem was that everyone only wanted info to justify to banks, investors, whoever to do whatever it was that they wanted, so they would only pay for "positive" info, and since were were in a down market, no one would pay for info indicating the market was on the way down because they couldn't use it for anything. i got shouted down, but I believed it then as I do now. I liken it to factoid i heard about stock recommendations during the NASDAQ meltdown of the early part of the millennium: while the market was going from 5,000 to 2,000, out of something like 12,000 recommendations, 11,876 were "buy" and 124 were "sell".

You speak truth, 30yrs. When it comes down to it, most buyers always think they can get a good deal just by going directly to the seller's broker without paying an intermediary cold hard cash for advice. It's one thing to troll Internet forums looking for free advice, but would you be willing to pay W81 at least 100+/hr to hear his take? Or 1% of the deal value?

the fee does not have to be additive...if you are alrady paying your broker 2.5%. assuming a 50-50 split between listing and sales. Why not give the 2.5 to a qualified buyer broker instead of worthless piece of...

Ah, the problem with that is that in today's world, there are no brokers who work solely as buyer's brokers. I have friends who are brokers and they are very careful not to badmouth other people's listings even if they are working on your behalf. They pussyfoot around the big issues. That's because they also work as seller's brokers and the seller's brokers on the other side today may (they hope) bring them clients tomorrow.

Maybe W81 will break the mould.

30yrs_RE_20_in_REO: i don't even know where to start with you. likening the services of an accountant or a lawyer to a real estate agent is patently ridiculous. i continue to do business with both my accountant and attorney because they have taken care of a bunch of problems for me over the years. i can assure you that neither one of them is good at telling me what i want to hear; i have had numerous shouting matches particularly with my attorney. both these guys have saved me from myself repeatedly.

and neither one of them gets paid on a percentage of anything.

and yes my friend it is more expensive to sell a $5,000 handbag than a $200 one starting with the store front necessary, the type of advertising, the sales help that you have to hire, etc.

all of you so called real estate professionals are so used to making big dollars that you actually believe that you are in business doing something.

tell me again, how a broker or two "earns" $100 K for selling a $2 million apartment. if the place isn't priced right, no sale. if it is, a sale. that's worth $100K? give us all a break.

i, for one, can't wait to watch all of you trying to figure out what happened to the golden goose.

I'm not following the logic that a good buyer broker = likelihood of getting a good deal. If that's not the claim being made then I apologize for misunderstanding. Seems to me the multitude of factors that may contribute to getting a good deal fall heavily on the side of seller circumstance. I suppose you can assume "stupidity of the buyer" in which case a buyer broker may swoop in and save the day. I suppose a buyer broker may have access to information that the buyer does not (do they?). Perhaps I'm misunderstanding all the fuss...

you're right....but i think a good buyer broker can spare you the pain of wading through all the bad deals.

Perhaps, if you care to pay them for that service. In the end, you still have to deal with sellers and brokers who will hold out for as much as they can get, and rightly so. Shouldn't they? Wouldn't you? I certainly would to the extent that my circumstance would allow. It may be ugly but it's true. It may not matter how smart and RE savvy you or your "consultant" are given such a reality. I understand and appreciate the frustrated and biased perspective of buyers out there, but it's important to be realistic. How lovely if people like Noah and Michael can "change the model" (i'm not even clear what that means). Good luck to those who try.

you're already paying...its built into the price of the apartment.

"and yes my friend it is more expensive to sell a $5,000 handbag than a $200 one starting with the store front necessary, the type of advertising, the sales help that you have to hire, etc."

You missed the point entirely: I'm no talking about the store, I'm talking about the commission to the salesperson. but if you want to talk about the store, it works that way too: do you think that the small "dinky" RE brokerage houses get the $20,000,000 listing that the one's who have multi-million dollar offices and websites? NOPE.

You also missed the point on the services: the reason why you can't get professional service from a RE broker is no one is willing to pay for it. buyers want waiters who take their order and bring them what they want: if a broker is honest with a buyer up front, the buyer simply goes to someone who will bullshit them. If you want to see the difference, simply go to commercial RE and see the differences in what service commercial tenants get vs what residential buyers get.

BTW, there actually was a service who only acted as a buyer's brokerage for several years, have any of you been around long enough that you remember who that was? I doubt it, you're all going by what you've seen the last few years and then looking at old numbers on paper (or cyberspace) and think it tells you what things were like in the time before you started paying attention to RE.

"all of you so called real estate professionals are so used to making big dollars that you actually believe that you are in business doing something."

I understand your ire at brokers in general, but you really should reserve the ad hominem attacks for people who you have the slightest idea of what it is that they do. I get paid per hour the same as most attorneys for being an expert in "the practice of Real Estate in NY" by some of the biggest RE players around. I can't remember the last time I took a buyer out to show an apartment to. I'm in the business of trading on my own account and getting repeat business from a lot of the same people because I actually do offer a service which is worth an awful lot of money to them.

You seem to think that all there is to real estate sales is picking a price and then buyers show up at your door and if the price is correct they buy it and if it's wrong they don't. All that says to me is how little experience you have in actually doing transactions.

"if a broker is honest with a buyer up front, the buyer simply goes to someone who will bullshit them."

What kind of honesty is it that you feel buyers can't handle?

"If you want to see the difference, simply go to commercial RE and see the differences in what service commercial tenants get vs what residential buyers get."

What is this difference, you speak of, between how residential and commercial buyers are treated by real estate agents?

I just want to address one issue brought up here. We are not currently a member of REBNY, so as of now Michael is free to say what ever he likes about listings. And based on what I know about Michael, the critique (good or bad) will be honest and in good taste.

I set out over a year ago to try and do things differently, many in my business thought(wished?)I would "flop". But offering people honest, transparent advice and throw in a discounted fee schedule and business has been great.My best start in years in one of the worst markets ever. Now regarding REBNY, they represent the current system, my thinking is how do you change the status quo if you are part of the current machine? We can still participate in there RLS service as a non-member firm and of course there are many other sources that any good agent must utilize to be highly effective for their client.

I am not trying to put REBNY or anyone else out of business,lol. I am just offering an alternative model whose heart is lower commissions, with a range of services that can be tailored to the buyer and seller.Eliminating the retail store front, corporate headquarters is where we save, so we are able to be more competitive with fees. Honesty and transparency should be part of everyone's business plan...

I have a family I have to support that comes first, building my discounted, fluid model real estate empire comes second! lol. I hope Michael can assist me and look forward to working with him.

I would like to make a distinction here, which was teased out above, between REBNY allowing an agent to serve his/her clients with appropriate advice and an agent publicly commenting on other agents' listings -- that is not serving a client, that is simply self-publishing.

I realize that most of the people on this board don't think of me as a service person on the order of an accountant or an attorney, but my clients do (is now a good time to hit the note of my Ivy League education again?) and my accountant doesn't say nasty things about other accountants just to get my business.

And cfranch and columbia, if you both think that brokers' feedback is what is keeping sellers from slashing prices, then how come there are FSBOs that don't sell?

ali r.
{downtown broker}

So can you clarify a little further- if one were a member of REBNY, what would the restrictions on commenting be? And what's the point of being in REBNY if you can still get access to it? Is it that you can't add listings to it? So if you were only on the buy side, there'd be no reason to join?

"cfranch: they are victims of their own system...to get the listing, they have to flatter the seller which often includes quoting a higher price. it is definitely in the broker's best interest to price correctly to move the unit; unfortunately, the seller is the ultimate decision maker on this issue."

at least read what i say before you criticize: i get it that sellers are the roadblock to reasonable pricing...

p.s. the problem with your analogy is that your clients want the truth( to the best of your ability) about the value of listings that you show them. but when i look at the bukhardt group listing for the famous place in lincoln towers, it states: "Quite possibly the best affordable 2 bedroom apartment in all of NYC." if i were your client, what advice would you give me regarding that statement?

Good for you Keith and thanks for adding more detail,particularly about not being a member of REBNY.

cfranch, you must be new here. Ali (front_porch) is one of the respected brokers that post here as mentioned in the nytimes article that this thread kicked off with.

columbia, congratulations on finally discussing the issues that w81 may face (although Keith has allayed a lot of the confusion just now) and also to others who seemed to be ignoring it while they had their celebration - I'm not criticizing the positivity around w81's new venture - just the lack of discussion around how this will help us and him and how difficult it may or not be to achieve what he is aiming for.

Again to columbia, you said "and yes my friend it is more expensive to sell a $5,000 handbag than a $200 one starting with the store front necessary, the type of advertising, the sales help that you have to hire, etc."
Don't you think that the client (admittedly rare now) who is looking for a $10M house/apt is going to expect more in the way of services, whether it be a car service provided by the broker, paid marketing targeting higher cost channels (imagine Chanel advertising in AM NY) and so on. I'm not saying a flat 6% commission is fair but there is a difference in the markets in a similar way that there is a difference in the handbag market.

lets be more realistic and specific....what type of difference is there is selling an apartment for $1.5 million (75K in commissions) or $2.5 million (125 in commissions)? certainly nothing approaching 50 K, right?

Keith, a big shout out to you again for sponsoring West81st, and best wishes for your business. Given that the items you point out are separate, what does REBNY membership provide in a professional sense? Just a good name & whatnot?

What does REBNY provide? I think there biggest contribution was a system similar to an "MLS" for Manhattan, although there are others providing this.

Columbia: I have simply listed the Lincoln Towers home very "casually"(we'll work with FISBOS) and transferred the ad copy of the owner to our site. I have removed this bit; "Quite possibly the best affordable 2 bedroom apartment in all of NYC." This line may have gone a bit far?

I'm not disagreeing with you columbia - was that not clear from my last sentence?

I'm just pointing out a flaw in your thinking because you even use an example of higher costs associated with marketing in different price categories.

Otherwise, I agree, a flat 6% is not fair - but I already said that. Right?

I'm not sure if it's the Crying Game dynamic or just a sense of disappointment similar to that felt by Jerry Seinfeld when he realizes he's dating a girl just like himself. (Perhaps the latter is more apropos for the UWS) Either way, as a longtime West81st fan, I also join the ranks of the wistful. I'm sure the future is bright for whatever disruptive venture he starts and hope the candid, thoughtful, and infinitely useful commentary doesn't end. Otherwise, I'll have to find another hobby :-) FWIW, I also thought he wrote like a dude at first glance, but eventually and reluctantly accepted the female persona.

Congrats to SE and its spawn!

Michael, I wish you all the success in the world. If you are anything like the moderate, reasonable, realistic, (seemingly) honest person you are/were as W81st, you'll do fine over time.

SE is a reflection of the demands of individuals over the embedded powers that be. A free exchange of ideas and information is nearly ALWAYS a better idea than otherwise.

yes, i think we both agree that line was over the top. how about these?

i believe the following are all fair questions that a prospective buyer would want to know from his/her agent?

"plus huge 20' x 6' terrace" is it huge or is it 20 x 6?
"
"lovely river and private park views." does this place actually have a river view? if so, no pic? if not, why does it say that it does?

"large 28 foot loft like living room" is it large or is it 28 feet? what qualifies it as loft like? unusual ceiling height?

"The kitchen and bathrooms are newly renovated." what was done to qualify this as a renovation. 3K worth of appliances and paint?

"165 West End Avenue, the crown jewel of Lincoln Towers" really? what makes this building any better than all of the other buildings in the complex?

"On top of all this, 165 West End offers a wonderful private 5 acre park" who is and isn't allowed to use this park?

"the newest and best playground in town." when was it built? what makes it the best?

you say you want to be different. i'm not suggesting that you or anyone else has to denigrate any property but these types of statements above which are so common as to be boring makes most listing info useless other than price and location.

So 30yrs_RE, I'm still curious, what kind of honesty do you think buyers can't handle?

You doubted that I would pay a broker who would honestly advise me rather than merely repeat their company line. As a buyer, I would pay for someone to work for me and negotiate for me in this difficult market rather than representing the seller. On numerous occasions I have voiced that the real estate model as it currently exists is broken. Let the buyer pay their broker and the seller pay theirs. Possibly more deals would get done. Or pay brokers for the hours they work for the buyer. There would have to be greater accountability, but the good brokers that earn a reputation for advising their clients will have a following and the mere "appointment makers" will fall by the wayside.

Let's see, 3%(buyer's half of 6%) of 1 million dollar sale is currently $30,000, divided by $100 an hour, that would be 300 hours devoted solely to a single client. And if the broker really knew their business, a lot fewer hours would be needed to close a deal. Buyers who were not serious would not waste brokers time. It seems like a good alternative to me.

I was disturbed to learn a while back from Streeteasy posters that buyers brokers in today's model are also working for the seller, even though, ultimately, it is the buyer's money that is paying the broker fees in the long run. It seems unfair not to have the professionals involved in the transaction working for our best interests as well.

NYRENewbie - I think that the REBNY and general legal guidelines for the real estate industry actually manage to accommodate most buyers and sellers needs. I have been among those arguing that the current model can stand, but that practices within that model will change to suit the new paradigm (post-bubble, more transparency).

Yes, a buy-side agent has a fiduciary responsibility to the seller. But those of us who earn our livings as buy-side agents in co-brokered deals will tell you that we would not have much of a business model if we didn't truly represent our buyers and their needs. I have referred buyers to fsbo's and collected no money. I have referred buyers to non-REBNY member's listings and collected only a small referral fee. I have reduced my commission to make my buyer's offer more attractive than a competing bid. All of which is completely legal and within REBNY guidelines. (Although I probably shouldn't be talking about it here.) I think there is room for honest, responsible behavior within the system. The trick is finding the individuals who operate that way - and then making sure they can get you the deals you want. No point in having a sweet and honest broker who can't close.

Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

Back when I was looking, a broker took me to see a not-yet-effective co-op that he knew I'd fall for. He also knew he'd have to wait a long time for his commission. It ended up being a year. I'd never have found out about the place on my own, and he could have easily skipped it as being not worth *his* time.

Just a little good-broker story amidst all the bashing.

At least burkie didn't say it was 12,000 sqr feet!
That bathroom doesn't look renovated, but who knows...

"Let's see, 3%(buyer's half of 6%) of 1 million dollar sale is currently $30,000, divided by $100 an hour, that would be 300 hours devoted solely to a single client. And if the broker really knew their business, a lot fewer hours would be needed to close a deal. Buyers who were not serious would not waste brokers time. It seems like a good alternative to me."

It's a good thing that agents don't have to split that with their brokerage firms and that they have no business expenses, either.

"So 30yrs_RE, I'm still curious, what kind of honesty do you think buyers can't handle? "

Send me a $10,000 retainer and we'll talk about it.

I'd say they can't handle being told that their precious apartment isn't worth more than that comp-that-isn't-a comp which sold for $x months or a year ago. Just taking myself as an example, I over-emphasize the up factors and devalue the down factors. ("Oh, they'd do the kitchen and baths over anyway....")

So the potential broker can either tell the truth and lose the listing, or feign agreement. If the latter, then at least there's the hope of either getting lucky or being able to get the seller to chop the price once reality dawns on them.

30years, are you a broker now?

the whole system is busted---doesn't work for anyone any more now that more and more brokers are starving.

Yes, 30yrs, you've convinced me that you are a real buyer's broker, truly concerned that I will get the best apartment for my money. Where do I send your retainer?

Well the preacher kept right on saying that all I had to do was send
Ten dollars to the church of the sacred bleeding heart of jesus
Located somewhere in los angeles
, california
And next week theyd say my prayer on the radio

columbiacounty: in reality, it's been busted for a long time. It's just that with the market on the way up there was so much money being made that no one cared as long as they were getting their piece of the action.

From back in 2005: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/27/realestate/27cov.html?scp=5&sq=real%20estate%20brokers%20manhattan%20%22number%20of%20agents%22%20&st=cse

"The New York State Department of State has licensed about 27,500 brokers and agents in Manhattan. (Although most people use the terms interchangeably, brokers have tougher licensing and education requirements.) But there are only 10,000 transactions in any given year, according to Jonathan J. Miller, president of the appraisal firm Miller Samuel."

27,500 brokers and 10,000 transactions?

Do you know why they have "deer season"?

our government in action.

Keith, very nice of you to sponsor W81.
W81, like the Crying Game twist.
Best of luck to you both. Hope you shake up this town with a new paradigm.