New Whole Foods on UWS 97th - impact to neighborhood?

Whole Foods on LES also came with a ridiculous amount of middle-high end construction, over an area formerly an eyesore adjacent to in demand areas. So the total did clean things up a bit... but you are talking about a fairly high in demand area. It also hit before the peak.

As for W 100, the projects certainly don't help... and I could see it becoming a sh*tshow with folks driving and double parking in that neighborhood. Will be convenient for locals, but I don't think its going to do much to bring in more high end.... especially since the bubble has now popped.

There is a dearth of good grocery shopping options in NYC. Even though WF can be $$$, if you're a good shopper and stick to basics, it's better than the existing options.

Even without the traffic from the new rentals, WF will draw shoppers from the 110s to the 80s.

nyc10023,

I just can't see Whole Foods dragging any shoppers away form Zabar's on the 80's. Its just too good!

The area mentioned desperately needs services, so the Whole Foods is welcome, but really just a start. The high end rental towers that are going in around it is another story. The area will be much more noisy and despite more foot traffic, security will be more of an issue. Though the development's timing couldn't be worse; they will have a very tough time filling up those apartments at the prices they demand.

I'm a big Zabar's fan but the meat section is tiny (and pricey). Ditto the fresh produce. And there's no fresh fish. Not to mention that it's a zoo and impossible to shop there with a stroller. Most people I know who live 80s & up do not shop at Zabar's for everyday groceries. They do FD (pain without doorman) or schlep to Fway.

Not to mention CU community. As for the rental apts, I'm not familiar with the rental market up there or the developer's financing commitments. If they cut rents enough, they will find takers.

I don't find WF that expensive. The produce is higher (although they have huge seasonal price variations) than what you can get on the UWS, but their fish, meat, cheese and other things are great, and less expensive than many options. Definitely a plus for prepared foods as well. WF definitely made a difference in Chelsea, and in USq before Trader Joe's opened.

but i agree with bronxboy, these apartments will take awhile to fill. did the developer own this land for awhile, though? if so , there may be some welcome downward rental prices, or not if they feel they don't have to fill the complex.

That area is not going to improve until they get rid of those god awful housing projects.

Manhattan still has too many projects, which is why it's not as clean and gentrified as chicago.

suddenly the west 90s-100s look a whole lot better.

One sure-fire way to get those rentals rented - mayor and DOE asleep on this. If they'd given dev. some concessions in return for building a new school/s in that area. Bureaucrats are so short-sighted in this city. The UUWS is sorely missing good public schools.

Yes, 10023, many families moved Northward during the price run up. I have no idea what they are going to do, many of them.

I am currently buying in the West 90s so take this for what it's worth, but we saw a "Whole Foods" effect here in Midtown West from the one at Time Warner Center.

ali r.
[downtown broker}

I moved to Chelsea a couple of weeks before Whole Foods opened. I was moaning that I had little to no options unless I trekked to the west village. And then, voila. I would now really hate to live in a neighborhood without one. many disagree, but I love them.

I feel like the baby boom is ending, as many of my peers are ending their childbearing years. I don't see too many people in their late 20s moving uptown and settling down. As always, there are people moving to the burbs. The recession will probably have a dampening effect on the number of new babies on the UWS. OTOH, now that the UUWS has been downzoned, maybe some wily bureaucrats will cut a deal with a developer in the future. It's still pretty low density in the 90s & 100s.

Yeah, proximity to good grocery shopping has always been a priority to me. Luckily, we've always lived near Fway and Cit. Having a WF in TWC is a boon. I hate FD with a passion.

There will always be babies on the UWS because it's a nesting area. A happy family neighborhood. Parks, playschools, big family apartments. Whole Foods will be a boon because it's halfway between Fairway and Big Fairway. Even if you go to Zabars for smoked fish and cheese, you will still want the veggies. And speaking as a denizen of the area, it's a morale booster for the 90's to have an upscale magnet here. We can hold our head up against the downtowners. Now all we need is a Trader Joes.

Trader Joe's kicks - your smug downtown poster.

There have been rumors for the last 12 months that TJ is going into that new (hideous) building on Bway & 72nd. Any truth to that?

Yeah, there will always be babies but there was a rapid acceleration in the # of babies in the last 10 years.

I agree, 10023, a veritable UWS baby-making machine. It will be interesting to see what the families decide to do. I don't hold out much hope for them, unless something truly novel arises, from the BOE.

Everyone loves to eat. In times of plenty we elevate chefs to demi g-ds. It will be interesting to see what the 'prepared food bus. plan' holds up in the face of any prolonged eco. down turn. This town loves it's stomach almost as much as it loves it's wallet. Let's see which way the bulge grows.

As recently as 2 years ago, it was easy for UUWSers to lottery into a more desirable school. I suspect die-hard NYCers will just put up with overcrowded NYC publics and enrich as much as possible for as long as possible. Parents of toddlers and under 5s who can't deal just vote with their feet. Once you're in the system and have kids going to public, you're much less inclined to move unless something really terrible happens. It's not cheaper to move to a suburb with desirable schools - you get more space for the same $, but monthly outlay is sometimes more. I know that's how we feel.

I was considering a purchase on 93rd and Columbus. Should I reconsider?

ChrisT,

Are your concerns schools, crime or drop in property values?

Crime mostly.

"That area is not going to improve until they get rid of those god awful housing projects.

Manhattan still has too many projects, which is why it's not as clean and gentrified as chicago."

Yes, Rufus. No matter what the topic, Chicago is better. Despite having more school shootings so far this year than NEW YORK STATE and NJ combined had all last year, a higher crime rate overall, and a poorer-performing real estate market. ANd cold ass weather.

Back TOP - I am surpised not ONE person has mentiooned the "whole foods effect" - this store ALWAYS raises proerty values (or at least concides with one.) There are dozens of articles on this very topic. Here is one:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/21/AR2006072101582.html

jason, ali did mention it. i wasn't as clear, but i meant to include it as well, at least for "north" Chelsea. the Union Square arrival seemed to coincide with one.

ali, welcome to the neighborhood. where are you buying? WF will be a plus for the neighborhood, and the west 90s will continue its decades long gentrification. With two great parks, two subway lines (one express) and five bus lines over just five avenues--some just a half block apart--the west 90s has always had strong fundamentals. it may not be a hip area, but it is convenient and much lower-priced living than areas south.

ChrisT, why do you feel like crime will get worse? That area is nice: Gabriella's and Roth's are right there, you're close to the park, you've got Mani's and up a bit Columbus Wines. It's very safe and there are always plenty of taxis. We live close by and hang out there a lot.

There are very few dining options between 90th and 100th. There was a diner and an Indian restaurant which went down for Whole Foods and the rental tower. The area needs many more services; not just Whole Foods. Sadly, Whole Foods is not an affordable option for those who do live in the nearby projects. Hopefully its presence will not breed resentment.

bronxboy, i agree. but WF is actually much cheaper for most things than Associated. the poor almost uniformly have the worst access to reasonably priced food. one of the reasons I'm such a fan of Bloomberg expanding the produce cart system.

PMG, I'm superstitious enuf that I'm not telling my building till we close -- which will hopefully be in a month, because the managing agent has our co-op package . .. we're waiting to hear if/when we get interviewed.

ali r.
[downtown broker}

ChrisT, crime is not a problem south of West 96th street. This has not always been the case, obviously, but it has been safe for a long time now. I've lived north of 86th Street and south of 96th for over twenty-five years. Everything about the neighborhood has gotten MUCH better over time. For the last ten years Zillow shows appreciation rates of 82.5% for zip code 10025, 35.9% for 10024 and 29.3% for 10023. The accuracy of these rates may be highly suspect, but the general conclusion that appreciation has been higher the further north you go makes sense to me. Likewise neighborhoods further north today should trade at better discounts. You should be able to get a good deal if you shop wisely.

ali, be cautious. I was just curious.

> Trader Joe's kicks - your smug downtown poster.

Agreed. WF just gets crazily expensive for some things (and the owner pretty much admitted as such in Forbes). TJ just has a lot more value stuff... as does Fairway (though Brooklyn can now be extra smug about that one).

Being within 5 (ok maaaaayyyyyybeee 10) blocks of both a WF and an Equinox is nonnegotiable! ;-)

Agree, I need to be within 5 blocks of good gym, grocery shopping, and jogging. Otherwise, what's the point?

Hey, 10023--I don't like Fresh Direct either, but I am strangely addicted to their prepared tuna salad...mmmmmmmm

PMG, I have been reading about the large number of mentally ill/drug addicts residing in the 90s. The apartment is for a young (petite) woman living alone. Are my concerns unwarranted?

http://wcbstv.com/investigates/the.lantern.group.2.755140.html

can anyone tell me if living in the rental, 808 columbus would be a good idea...i've always lived downtown but need to lower my monthly rent.

What is the big deal with Whole Foods?

ChisT, you are being overly sensitive. Social service or section 8-style housing is scattered throughout the west side. None of these overwhelms its neighbors south of 96th Street. If you are looking at 100 West 93rd Street, I can tell you that being one block from CP, and 4 blocks from WF are compelling draws. Plus, the carrying charges of that converted Mitchell Lama building are as low as you can get in Manhattan. If the apartment is attractive, and at a very good price, I wouldn't worry about the safety at that location. Single woman may not feel comfortable walking far alone at night regardless of the neighborhood in this downturn.

ChrisT, FYI I know a woman who, when single, lived on W 92nd between Columbus and Amsterdam in the early 90s. She had a delightful brownstone apartment, and used to say that the neighborhood doorman would wave to her when she walked to the express subway at 94th/broadway.

"ChrisT, FYI I know a woman who, when single, lived on W 92nd between Columbus and Amsterdam in the early 90s. She had a delightful brownstone apartment, and used to say that the neighborhood doorman would wave to her when she walked to the express subway at 94th/broadway."

Agreed - I used to live on 90th between CPW and Columbus in a brownstone - no problems ever. The only crime that I ever witnessed or heard about were young drug dealers who sold drugs to Trinity students. No violence. The community there is pretty friendly.

Thank you PMG and neuro. You put my mind at ease.

Getting back to Whole Foods... sounds like a good thing!

ChrisT,

I would suggest walking at 9:30pm on a weds and saturday along CPW and broadway from 70s to 96.

For me, there is a noticeable shift in atmosphere after 86, i start to become more cautious. It might just be that there are much less people on the streets when compared to the 70s or the lack of retail. The mix of people do differ slightly in the 90s, its certainly not like San francisco with homeless and mentally ill on every few blocks where the city give them more rights than the people living in the neighborhood.

Broadway until 116th Street is perfectly safe. CPW late at night, on the park side, is a risk but has nothing to do with location. It's a risk from 59th to 110th because of the lack of pedestrian traffic. The Upper West Side is as safe as any in NYC.

Forget the upper west...they have zabars...the upper east needs a whole foods....!!! I think one is going in on 86th?

the rumor is the old B&N space. you're not satisfied with Eli's? :)

zabars is claustrophobic and it's not the place to buy staples, like sea salt, you need to go to fairway for that type of stuff.

"Broadway until 116th Street is perfectly safe. "

around the low 100s is as trashy as you can get. there's not much movement at night during the week and the movement that you find many times is not the type that gives you confidence. i'd avoid it.

> Forget the upper west...they have zabars...

And the upper east has the brother (and 2 locations).

Christ T - I agree with bugelrex about the shift in area. Definitely walk the area late at night. Even later than 9:30 if you can (perhaps if someone is with you you'd feel more comfortable). It's important to feel comfortable in your neighborhood at all hours. Best of Luck!!

I have traveled (by car) up Broadway at night and noticed the shift in atmosphere at 86th but I haven't been able to find anything in my price range below 89th. I will take a walk as suggested. Do you all think the area is too far a commute (about 40 minutes) for an NYU student?

My read is that Bway hits a dead spot in the 90s and then livens up again in the 100s into the 110s. Its not too long a commute to NYU. Should be less than 40 minutes depending on where you need to go.

Whole Foods seems to be more expensive than other stores in most of the country and cheaper than its competitors in NY. I think they are getting rent discounts to draw residents to new developments, much like anchor tenants in malls.

Gosh, some posters should have seen Broadway in the 90s in the early 1980s. There were some vacant lots, no chain stores, no banks and security gates on all of the windows. If some are concerned about the quality of the area today, then they would have been way too chicken to pick up a condo for a song back then. I've owned for over twenty years and cannot tell you how pleased I am with the progress.

Malthus, i agree with both of your posts. WF is very reasonable in NYC, wouldn't seem so upstate (although I did notice substantial price increases at PriceChopper over the last two years).

I personally don't find Broadway above 98th at all menacing at night. A little slow below that for a number of blocks.

PMG,

Well, living with the 'fear' of crime (whether its mild or doesn't exist at all) is factored into the price you pay.
Does anyone really want to pay 700k-800k for a 1BR and not be comfortable with the surroundings?
At 1990's pricing, I'm sure people put up with more because its was so cheap.

By the way, I'm not saying its safe or not safe, depends on individual tolerance, but price is a factor.

about ready - Elis...the vinegar factory on upper east side...is sooooooo expensive!!!!

The area is not prime UWS. But it is near prime, and really convenient with an express train to midtown in 12 minutes. The fact that you can buy in the W 90s for less money is likely the reason Tim Gunn just bought at 90th and Amsterdam. Colin Powell's daughter bought at 93rd and Broadway a year or so ago. Elisabeth Hasselbeck bought at the massive Ariel development which nearly sold out at fancy prices. WF is coming. Where some posters see risk, others see ongoing improvement, price discounts to properties further south, and opportunity for price appreciation. Some day people will not see this neighborhood as less than prime. Trust me people, Manhattan is not getting any larger.

ap2492, that's why I asked whether the poster was "satisfied" with Eli's. Plus, the atmosphere sometimes seems a bit rarefied to me. I think the UES would be greatly improved with a WF.

ChrisT, there are many posters here who get nosebleeds above AMNH, that said, I'm not going to talk you into living in a neighborhood you are fearful of. All I can say is that I live in almost that exact hood, am a woman and have to sometimes walk late at night and personally, have never been nervous. I can't think of a single, earthly reason why you would be nervous of projects that are almost 10 blocks away (I'm assuming you're worried abut the ones north of WF). True, it's not the most sparkling of neighborhoods. It doesn't have the quaintness of the Village, or further south, but it has everything you could need in the way of conveniences, easy access to the express stop and a nice mix of families, single people and older folks. Plus you get more for your money without have to live in a remote area.

PMG,

There are some who would prefer the minimal traffic and congestion they have in the upper 90's and 100's as opposed to the chaos of Lincoln Square and West End below 72nd after Trump's horrific village went up. Those same people fear that with the added high rises on Columbus that it soon will become overly congested.

easy does it everyone.

I believe the suggestion was for ChrisT to determine her own comfort level.

:)

If I sounded testy UWSmom, then sorry. It would make anyone irritable to hear their nabe get ripped on by people who make it sound like, once the sun goes down, we are stepping over meth addicts and used needles to walk through the doors of Gourmet Garage. Lordy, some of you are hothouse flowers.

Who is Tim Gunn? Hasselback and Powell? Is the UWS turning republican?!?

Yeah, don't love the congestion of the UES. N. of 72nd, you're fine on the UWS.

"ap2492, that's why I asked whether the poster was "satisfied" with Eli's. Plus, the atmosphere sometimes seems a bit rarefied to me. I think the UES would be greatly improved with a WF."

No one goes to Agata and Valentina on the UES? I love this store - the produce is cheaper and fresher than Food Emporium and Morton Williams and just about every other store in the area and they have great prepared food too. It does have a distinctly Italian bend, but I prefer it to Zabar's or Eli's any day.

A&V is superior to Eli's and the chains, but it doesn't serve as a full-service place. I do like it, though, much of the prepared food is great.

"Yeah, don't love the congestion of the UES. N. of 72nd, you're fine on the UWS."

Where exactly is this UES congestion?

Walk around a weekday around most of the UES - not including the 60s bridge entrance of course - and its quieter than most of the UWS.... even the retail spots. Compare that to broadway, which is filled with strollers all through the day, tons of cars stopping to shop, etc.

Are you kidding me? The lower cross streets (s. of E79th) are super crowded all the time, maybe Madison/Park isn't chock a block with traffic but Lex to York feels very busy to me. The UWS isn't really a retail destination, so it's mostly locals.

> Are you kidding me? The lower cross streets (s. of E79th) are super crowded all the time, maybe
> Madison/Park isn't chock a block with traffic but Lex to York feels very busy to me.

What do you mean by cross streets south of 79? The through streets the city marks off? Those are the streets they tell the cars to be on, which keeps 'em off the other ones.

All I know is, I can walk up 3rd ave middle of the day, 60 to 86, and its pretty darn quiet up through 86 zone. Even 72 is pretty darn quiet for a wide street.

Are you talking car congestion? If I have to drive across, I'll occasionally get stuck behind a garbage truck or something, but there isn't a huge volume of cars. Compared to the couple spots I've had to go to on UWS regularly in the last few years, its much less crowded.

> The UWS isn't really a retail destination, so it's mostly locals.

That doesn't make the cars invisible. ;-)

Or, here is how I see it big picture. Say UES and UWS get a comparable number of cars... UWS just has way more choke points... partially because of the broadway diagonal and the plazas.... which goes tenfold for lincoln center, of course. The diagonals just slow things down, whereas its much easier to time things going straight up and down (everything except park i guess, which is still pretty quick).

I think the UES gets a much greater number of cars, spread over a larger area because of the bridges. I don't know what it's like at quiet times of the day - it's quiet here on the UWS too. I know that any time I've gone there close to rush hour, it's been nightmarish.

nyc10022, you ever take the second avenue bus? third is ok, madison is surprisingly good sometimes, first is often brilliant, but the downtown routes are miserable, mostly because of the bridge. park can be a fright.

Not sure how busy WF will be uptown. 80% of the folks around it can't afford to shop there. We live in low 80's AMNH. We walk down to TW to go to WF in the basement. Stop on the way, lunch at Bar Boulud, then on to TWC, wifey shops, I go in to Davidoff. Nice walk home (shoutout to W67 as we pass by), its all good.

AV is far from me...aboe 86th streete....86th is a great location for WF.....close to subway line

oops ..sorry sloppy spelling..."above" 86th street

anyone ever compare the prices of WF store-brand cheerios with the cheerios at Associated? The store-brand oreos? juice?

patient09, maybe most of the fish and meat would be too expensive, but for WF brand frozen food, staples, some produce, etc., it is much less than the chains. Associated regularly tries to sell raspberries for $5.99, and they are awful. Even the Ben & Jerry's is cheaper at WF.

> nyc10022, you ever take the second avenue bus? third is ok, madison is surprisingly good sometimes,
> first is often brilliant, but the downtown routes are miserable, mostly because of the bridge. park
> can be a fright.

I've taken it a bunch.....

I mentioned the bridge onramp specifically. But, outside of rush hour, I've never really seen much of a jam. I can't think of any slowdowns in the 70s / 80s.

Though don't forget you also have Lex bus and 5th ave bus... hell, isn't there even a york bus?

Every other street has a bus...

cheerios don't reduce cholesterol

but they keep your toddler's grubby mits busy.

nyc10022, never mind.

> park can be a fright.

I can't remember even a slowdown on Park in the 70s or 80s in the last 10 years, except for one time they had a crain working on one of the condos...

The other day I was walking to the Bloomingdale branch of the library, and a woman with a European accent and stroller asked me where the Whole Foods was. I said "it's not there yet, but it will be, in a few months, right there" and pointed the building in Amsterdam. Just an anecdote, some people are looking forward to UWS WF.

Personally I don't shop at Whole Paycheck or Fresh Direct. I like the smaller stores and longer walks to forage -- Silver Moon Bakery, the tiny seafood store on 104th b/t B'way and Amsterdam, staples from the Health Nuts and infrequently will go to Fairway to buy meat and the greenmarket on Friday mornings on 97th. Whole Paycheck doesn't even employ fishmongers; the fish is filleted in NJ and driven over. There are complete idiots working behind the seafood and meat counters, I cannot abide them, but I realize Whole Paycheck does do other stuff really well, especially prepared foods.

To me, the projects between Manhattan and Amsterdam Ave. and 100th-104th streets aren't terribly bad. On the one hand I am in/out of those buildings doing volunteer meal deliveries during the lunch hour for a non-profit, and I'm not scared and have been never harassed. On the other hand, I considered purchasing an apartment in Central Park West, I forget the exact cross street, but it was between 100th-104th, and I felt positively boxed in by the projects and Central Park, and I couldn't imagine using the B/C station at 103rd late at night, felt too risky. Am a woman. I think just a few blocks removed from the Frederick Douglass Houses is OK. There are even some regular apartment houses right across the street from the project, that you might mistake for the projects, but they aren't. They are the Park West Village buildings with balconies that are from 97th to 100th streets.

Anyway, you have to know your comfort level, know one can determine it for you.

I think Broadway through the 100s is very safe though it does feel different after 86th. I think you loose the young single yuppy crowd and the families are all in for the evening with the kids as you venture in the 90s. If you venture the low 100s between broadway and amsterdam and columbus - you will be engaging with drug dealers quite often though there are undercover cops around the neighborhood. I would not walk those streets alone at night. At 110 through the north end of Columbia, you enter a great neighborhood that is very safe and full of college students and families. We have hopes for the low hundreds east of broadway but i think that is going to be some time away in this economy and the housing projects won't be going away so it will be tough. I think 92nd through 100th on broadway is absolutely a horrible looking stretch. Perhaps the new subway station will bring some needed improvement.

The upper west side starts on 86th street and goes north. South of that...pretenders

Actually, north of 86th isn't really UWS. It was for many years considered the shady neighborhood above the UWS you didn't go to.

south of 72nd Street and you might as well be on the east side...

The UWS in the upper 90s and 100s today is like the UWS 30 years ago in the 70s and around Columbia. Its not bad and it has become considerably better.

10022, chip. remove. pat. repeat.

The corner of B'way and 110th St. - with West Side Market on the north side of the street and D'Agostino's on the south - is fantastic for groceries. (Plus you've got Garden of Eden, Morton-Williams, and TWO Korean/Japanese supermarkets within six blocks either way.) WSM has more selection, D'Ags is sometimes cheaper and often less crowded; but they're both spacious and tidy, and you can reliably find the normal stuff everyday cooking requires. I'd hate to have Whole Foods as my only nearby option; their more-organic-than-thou attitude wears me out.

And I've walked up B'way (as a single gal) from 72nd to 110th late at night any number of times; it's fine all the way.

The UWS is already great for food shopping, but this will fill in a nice gap for those who live a bit too far north of Fairway, et al. Whole Foods isn't crazy expensive on everything, but some of their items are a bit nuts. Hopefully, they'll keep prices a bit lower than those in Columbus Circle.

"But, outside of rush hour, I've never really seen much of a jam. I can't think of any slowdowns in the 70s / 80s."

2nd is pretty miserable. Lex and 1st aren't far behind. I always found the honking far worse on the UES compared to the UWS.

What was that whole thing again about people that live there?

;-)

Lexington miserable? Really?

You should go visit on your next trip. Then you can see central park, too. Maybe take in some broadway.

What was that whole thing again about "pumping" your own neighborhood? And for the record, I have lived on the UES. I have nothing against it, but you have several other people here telling you it's not quite the paradise you think it is.

ROTFL.

> It was certainly not one of the worst years in peoples' lives like it should have been.

Wow, not only are you a hypocrite hall monitor, you're not too swift, tourist.

I don't own any real estate in the neighborhood. Unlike you, I'm not incented to lie about the neighborhood I live in.... in fact if I was as morally lacking as you, I'd be talking down the neighborhood to get prices moving downward.

But, try again, that one was pretty funny. Its always fun to have a little hypocrisy from you each morning to go with my coffee.

nyc10022, I have no idea where you pulled that quotation from, but it has nothing to do with anything here. I don't lie about my neighborhood - at worst, I offer my opinion, but you just rant and make blatantly false accusations, as your curmudgeonly self is wont to do. Suspiciously, you do pump the UES and Dumbo quite often though.

Yes, wrong quote... this was the ridiculous one...

"What was that whole thing again about "pumping" your own neighborhood? "

> I don't lie about my neighborhood - at worst, I offer my opinion, but you just rant and make
> blatantly false accusations

No, you lied. You can call it an "opinion", but you give factually incorrect statements all the time. You absolutely lied about commute times on the neighborhoods thread, even when your source said otherwise.

I'm sorry you don't like the accusations, but they're true.

In the end, you try to play hall monitor AGAIN, try to go off on me, and meanwhile you just show even more of your hypocrisy.

It would be really funny if it wasn't so sad. Although it is still pretty funnny.

"but you give factually incorrect statements all the time. You absolutely lied about commute times on the neighborhoods thread"

Sorry, brother, you're just wrong on this. I said those were longer commutes, approaching an hour, which is perfectly within reason. It's these kinds of posts by you, chock full of bitterness and misplaced vitriol, that don't really serve any purpose.