Sale at 20 Pine Street #2501

especially when someone else noted that they just sold an apartment for $600 psf in the building!

bump

(so the dup doesn't show up first)

i think we all know that it an unrealistic price. a nice apt, has more windows then most in the building and a terrace. but now way 2.4 mil

Agreed. The 20 Pine thread also has interesting info about the recent 1100 sq ft unit sale for only $660K, which makes #2501 ridiculously overpriced. Here's our writeup of the most recent sale:

http://downtowny.blogspot.com/2009/05/is-sale-at-20-pine-1505-finally-going.html

-DT

This conversation so far is mindless.

Your analysis of 2501 vs. whatever 1100sq ft apartment sold at $660K is analogous to suggesting that the grocery store should organize all of its food by expiration date, rather than by category, brand, flavor, etc.

I've been in this building. I saw a 1100sq ft. apartment that had TWO windows, and was therefore very deep. It was also very dark. And the view was directly on to the Chase building right across to the north. By all accounts, all you got in this apartment was a lot of space for the $, and the availability of the building's ammenities.

2501 - I'm looking only at the Corcoran site. Is it worth more than it sold for previously, that is another question, but is it in the same category of the apartment reference above ... well, it is 1300 sq. ft. Two full bedrooms vs. a studio. Large living room with two exposures. I don't know about the West exposure, but the South exposure is a clear bright city view, from a high floor. It is also a high floor (did I say that already?). It also happens to be on the Concierge level (maybe not a big deal with daily free coffee and an international newspaper, but then on the other hand if you are spending $2MM, you probably don't want to be with the people spending $660K on a 1100 sq. ft. dark studio). THEN, you have your own private 1100sq. ft. wrap terrace.

I know some people view their living situation as a commodity. Those who don't are typically willing to pay more for views, exposures, light, space, terraces, amenities ...

gleeclub, I agree w/ your analysis. 20 Pine is one of those bldgs. where comps are impossible to be made w/o actually looking at the units.

North-facing dark and narrow studios w/ two small windows looking right into the Chase bldg., w/ very awkwardly small liveable space, maybe 1,100SF, while East-facing bright 1,100SF units may have more useable space, perhaps even a bedroom, and more windows--with the plaza view, no less. Simple SF-based analyses just don't cut it.

Gleeclub - you are wrong about the view. This was a south facing unit with a view of the Stock Exchange.

I did a little bit of research.
You are correct, this is likely a south facing view.
But I believe it will be looking directly into the back of 40 Wall Street based on where it is in the floor plan and the location of 20 Pine relative to 40 Wall.

No, I was in the unit. It has a clear view of the NYSE.

i don't think anyone is saying it should (and will) go for the same price as the lower/darker apartments. The current asking is a bit out of line, somewhere in the middle is more realistic

So, I wouldn't go so far as to call the discussion "mindless". #2501 is selling for $1,853 per sq ft. Even if you assume that the entire outdoor space is additional square footage (which I'm not sure it is) - bringing the total unit to 2395 sq ft - this apartment is still asking over $1000/ sq ft. We understand your "expiration date" analogy but at some point, within a given category (say, ketchup or in this case, a troubled condo conversion), you have to start organizing things by price per oz (or sq foot). Would you pay $400/sq ft more for some of the things that you describe (e.g. a view, outdoor space etc.) in a troubled building? Maybe you would. I sure wouldn't given that this apartment is asking more than it's 2007 sales price (when was the last time you saw that type of pricing generate a sale?) and is not priced comparably to recent sales in the same building.

-DT

http://downtowny.blogspot.com

2501 is selling for $1853 psf if you don't count the terrace (and note, terrace, not a balcony). So that is simply misleading.

I believe the rule of thumb for good outdoor space is 1/2. So, $1300 psf is a fairer basis from which to have this conversation.

Would someone pay double the ppsf for a significantly better apartment? I damn well believe so. Whether this apartment is too much because it is over the last sale price - I'll leave that aside as I put in my original post on this subject.

As much as I reject your "same category" argument, I'll go and take you up on the silly notion of ketchup or price per ounce or price per square foot.

Here we go ... FreshDirect ... anyone can look this up.
20oz squeeze bottle of Heinz $2.79. 14c per ounce.
36oz squeeze bottle of Heinz $3.39. 9.4c per ounce. The 20oz bottle is 49% more per ounce. Same brand.
But wait, there's more
Annie's Natural Organic Ketchup (i.e. the version of ketchup with the terrace, light, views, multiple exposures, and concierge service), $4.69 for 24 ounces. 19.5c per ounce. That is more than double the price per ounce of the Heinz Ketchup.

Shocking.

And so, yes, I think that the price per square foot of 2501 should be significantly higher than 1505. Unless you want to discuss mustard with me.

studio with ho what does ho mean?

A couple of interesting things about 2501 (besides the insane asking price). Why does the 2nd BR have 2x the closet space of the master BR? How can the 25th Floor be the Penthouse when building has 30+ floors? Also, the Corcoran page mentions that maintenance (I think they meant common charge) includes electricity. This is NOT true. Electricity is billed separately. I know this because I specifically asked this of an owner I met at a party.

Also,
When I've looked at apartments with outdoor space, I've typically valued it as 50% of indoor space (meaning that 2sqft of outdoor = 1 sqft of indoor) because in NYC, you only get to use the outdoor space about 50% out of the year.

This unit has already been on the market for 2 months with no activity. Any guesses as to when the 1st price chop will come?

> studio with ho what does ho mean?

Free sexual favors.

Seriously, its home office. Any "bedroom" without a window can't be legally called a bedroom, so its called a home office or media room.

20 pine has lots of 'em because its a VERY been floorplate, and the apartments are mostly fairly long and relatively narrow. So many have interior rooms with no windows, so they call 'em hos...

I wish they left this building an office, it makes no sense as a home.

gleeclub - not to beat a dead horse, but I just can't help it. I'm completely with you on the Annie's Organic analogy - if you want to pay more for the same amount of ketchup, that's your right as a buyer in any market. On the Heinz analogy, that would really suggest that we would be paying less for more square footage (although I understand your point).

pab - on the studio with a ho, I was going to make some reference to The Beaver House (it's really tough to resist) but unfortunately, nyc 10022 beat me to the sexualized punch.

http://downtowny.blogspot.com

poor beave!!

I agree with gleeclub. You simply can't compare the 2 apartments by $/sq. ft. But the real question that has not been answered is what's the going rate for the next best alternative?!? The $660/sq. ft. apt might be expensive compared to similar apt, whereas the $1,300/sq. ft. apt. might actually be cheap compared to its peers, and those peers might not necessarily be in the same building. And that's why appraisers look at comparables from around the area, and do not confine their analysis to a single building.

Cheers!