FiDi Developments

2 gold is really nice and has some great layouts.

looking to buy, not rent.

setai 40 broad street

looks nice, but over priced with very high common charges and re taxes.

20 Pine has come through really nice despite what the sites have to say. Maint charges and 421 G are good also.

check out District located at 60 ann/ 111 fulton

20 pine looks interesting. and looks like they are giving rather large discounts when you see what these are actually closing at.

Check out some of our posts on FiDi buildings:

http://downtowny.blogspot.com/search/label/Financial%20District

District is a brighter version of 20 Pine (really depends on what you like) and is also probably more sold. You can get some great deals at 20 Pine now. You should also look at 75 Wall (although rent-to-own is kind of a turn-off), 15 Broad (we don't like it, but lots of people do), 90 William and the Beaver House (which is probably the most undersold of them all). 56 Pine (although not brand spankin' new) is pretty solid too.

The answer would vary depending on what you are looking for (e.g., "I want luxury--and lots of it" vs. "I just want a solid place for me to live." There are many good developments, although we tend to focus on the troubled ones, such as 20 Pine, 80 John, and the District.

1. If you are comfortable negotiating, I think 99 John would be a viable option, with their buy-back guarantee. The bldg. provides good amenities, but the finishes within each unit is CHEAP. Also, there are many (wealthier) grad students and young professionals renting there (the bldg. is partially/concurrently rental, w/ rentals supposedly phasing out), so one may not necessarily like that. Some of the units provide interesting layouts and great water/city views. I'd persnally consider $800 pf there to be a good price point considering the comps. Since the bldg. has many units (many are being rented by the sponsor), the CCs are low as well, even w/o the tax abatement which is running out in 5 years or so. Oh, also, there are no W/D hook-ups in the units.

2. It is no longer a "new conversion," but I really like 3 Hanover Sq. The area is lovely, with Stone Street right down the block and the well-kept plaza w/ benches and flowers, close to the water--which creates a very residential, almost "New England" feel. However, it's a coop (unusual in FiDi), and the maintenance COULD be steep. Again, no W/D in the unit.

3. 90 William is probably the most "solid" choice among the new FiDi developments, although it is not super luxurious, and there are two issues you may or may not care about. 1st, there are no W/D hook-ups, and you can only get unvented W/D units (they also have a penthouse laundry room). Second, they don't really have a sit-down lobby are (although they have a very nice lounge/terrace upstairs), which I find odd. If these issues don't bother you, they claim to be 90% sold AND closed, with only a few units left. They are already smartly priced at $800 pf so I am not really sure how negotiable the prices are, but it is infinitely nicer than 99 John in finishes and "resident quality" (also they have much fewer units), and the units there are HUUUUUUUUUGE! Their A and B lines are the best in terms of the views (the plaza/park view w/ a lot of sun), but the C line is nice, as is the H line. Others have limited views/sun, so if you care about getting a lot of sun, avoid lines D through G.

4. 40 Broad and 55 Wall are both VERY nice, but I don't really know the details about their finances. The finishes etc. are impeccable, and the 3 developments above don't even compare to these. I was surprised by the pricing at 55 Wall, as it seems to be a good deal @ $1k pf (or lower for some units!) for such a luxurious bldg. And, yes, this bldg. has W/D in each unit!

5. 88 Greenwich is also very nice, and they have sold enough units to be stable. But it is waaaaay over priced for what you get. It's not THAT super nice (it's sort of between 90 William and 55 Wall in quality), and units are small. Also, I personally don't really like the location (sort of isolated from the night life, restaurants and supermarkets on the other side/to the East of Broadway).

Are you interested in BPC

20 Pine Street

and that yellow and black building...I forgot the name..

Oh Beaver House!

nyc212 - we also really like 3 Hanover Sq (not a lot gets mentioned about that building) although there are very few amenities, W/D only every 3 floors and the hallways are super dingy:

http://downtowny.blogspot.com/2009/06/ring-ring-ring-420-per-sq-ft-sale-in.html

Also agree on 90 William although we saw TONS of renters (unless people in their early-20s are big buyers these days) on every visit. We actually thought the H line was quite dark, but an "A" line sold for under 900k in April, which is definitely a good price.

http://downtowny.blogspot.com/2009/05/90-william-st-bewilliam.html

Having lived in a Rockrose building (which is the "sponsor" at 99 John), I'm not sure I would recommend that development (as you say, the finishes are cheap) until the pricing is more reasonable.

-DT

DT: I know! Nobody really talks about 3 Hanover, but it is such a lovely location, and the units are VERY interestingly laid out.

As for the H lines @ 90 William--there was a LOT of sun coming from the bedroom-area window when I visited. Now I think of it, that window faces East (am I right?), so I must have visited in the morning (also, I suppose the lower floor units won't get as much sun... The model, I believe, was on 11th or 14th floor). As for the owner-occupant vs. renters--you may very well be right; I assumed the lower renter ratio because the residents I saw/met there were significantly older than those I saw at, say, 99 John or even 88 Greenwich... They may have just been older renters...

thanks nyc 212.

i want a development that is financially stable and one where i can get a good deal. i know those might not necessarily go together. finishes and quality of construction are important.

i do not need over the top amenities. concierge services, etc. don't have any value to me. i am looking for a 2 or possibly 3 br. i like lofts, but do not want a huge space with 2 windows and fake bedrooms.

also hoping to pay under $1000/psf

ILoveMuayThai, go check out 90 William, then. They are definitely stable and priced well below $1,000 pf., and their A and B lines have huge 2 BRs/Baths w/ windows all the way across--a lot of sun throughout the day because of the park right in front @ the corner of William and Maiden Ln. The bldg. is not amenity-driven, but they do have the basics, such as the terrace, lounge, gym, doorman...

Other than that, I can't think of a FiDi development that fits your description. If you want stability and you don't like 90 William, you should choose from "recent" developments rather than "new" developments. That might help you expand your search. Good luck.

thanks for the info.
i was hoping for at least 1250 sqft. 90 william looks nice, but apartments are too small.
recent developments would be fine with me too. i don't need brand new.

If you call those units @ 90 William "small," I don't think you will be successful in your search in new developments Manhattan below 96th. Gigantic units (lofts) in new developments (e.g., those in TriBeCa) usually come at much higher price point--in the $1,200 pf range.

I am saying this based on my extensive viewings over the last 3 years in Manhattan... Maybe you need to go to Blooklyn or perhaps Harlem? Good luck.

nyc212 - agreed on 3 Hanover Sq layouts - it's a great place to find an interesting unit. They're probably being severely impacted by all of the cheap(er) downtown new construction condos these days (I can think of maybe three units at 3 Hanover that sort of seemed reasonably priced 4 months ago but have been sitting on the market forever). I guess people are wondering why they would pay $700 per sq ft in an old co-op when you can get a unit at a brand new condo for the same amount or potentially less.

On 90 William, yeah the living room in the H line faces east (if that's the side with that monotone office building). The small bedroom window gets great light, but not enough to matter in those long lofts.

ILoveMuayThai - you can get great deals at 20 Pine AND a unit that size (check out our recent summary on that building): http://downtowny.blogspot.com/2009/06/whats-happening-at-20-pine.html
however you won't get any sort of financial stability for awhile. How about checking out 56 Pine and some of the smaller buildings on Nassau St (not new but converted in the last 10 years for most of them)?

http://downtowny.blogspot.com

thanks downtownster. i don't need a brand new development. size is my #1 priority.

i think you are right about 20 pine. out of all of these that looks like the best one to check out.

56 pine did not have anything big enough. i am looking into a few older buildings, even a coop, on nassau.

20 pine is decent for location, nice amenities.

But, layouts are crap unfortunately. These are mostly very long/narrow apartments with not huge windows at the end of them. Not a ton of light.

I like the finishes and the designs, but I've now seen like 10 apartments, and all the layouts were problematic.

I also saw Yoo, which has the same long apartment thing... but they have bigger windows, and they run a bit wider, so you don't suffer from the same "hallway" problem.

There are definitely some good buys in FiDi. I think the District is the nicest of the developments. It is really a great area, and has always been lower priced than other parts of Manhattan. Lots of grocery stores, drug stores, cleaners and its quiet and narrow streets remind me of some old European cities.

Once the WTC and Fulton Street Station get completed, the area will totally blend with Tribeca and prices will soar. Granted, we are 5-7 years away from that, but this is not a time to be buying for a quick turnaround or investment anyway.

Re 80 John, I don't know why you'd label this as "troubled." It's a pretty solid property and was nearly sold out over a year ago. I think I read a negative comment a week or so ago but generally it has gotten good reviews. A new management company has taken over that is quite good, as is the staff. Construction isn't perfect or the best, nor are the finishings, but it is solid.

Don't buy in FiDi - note all of the available units. These units were ALL available a year ago (at least). There is a reason they haven't sold. They are overpriced. They are overpriced. They are overpriced. Think about it - pre-Lehman when people could actually get loans they couldn't afford these units didn't even sell then - why would they ever sell now?
Prices will continue to fall. Wait until 25 Broad drops 300 units on a neighborhood that won't sell that many units in the next 12 months.

one thing to consider about buying in Fidi: we don't know which one's, but it seems fairly likely that a reasonably large number of units will get taken over in one way or another by banks, investors, whatever. What will they do with them? If a decent amount of these units get "liquidated" to raise cash quickly, it will impact EVERY project's ability to command higher prices. So, there is the distinct possibility that even if you buy in a good building (i.e. you pick the right one), you're still going to suffer from the fallout.

very interesting point 30 yrs. something to consider. the only way i would actually buy in fidi is if whatever project i go with is willing to sharply discount. i am willing to wait.

30yrs - exactly - when 25 Broad comes to market they are going to dump rental units or condos on the market. If it's rental units then rental rates will fall even further making the rent v buy argument even stronger for rentals - why buy at William Beaver when you can rent a two bed at 25 Broad for under $3K?
If they drop condos on the market then why buy at 20 Pine for $750/ft when you can buy at 25 Broad for $600/ft. There is just too much inventory and not enough people who can qualify for loans at today's asking prices. Even if people wanted to buy they couldn't and right now people don't even want to buy so we've got a long way to go here.

so jazzman...you think that other areas would be more stable investments, if one really wanted to buy?

my lease is up in feb and we don't want to rent again.
we haven't really started looking yet, but will soon.
i would prefer living on uws or downtown. i've seen some decent deals on uws, but downtown (wv, gv or tribeca) is still way overpriced.

Yes the core Manhattan neighborhoods will be more stable. Consider the total number of units in FiDi compared to how much of it is new construction sold in the last 3 years. There is just a lot of product there that needs to be absorbed and a lot of product that is underwater already and more that will soon be underwater.

I hope you can get it out of your head that you need to buy something by Feb. There is no reason to buy now. If you want a better/bigger apartment then fine. Find a rental in a condo building (for this FiDi is a great idea). Plenty of investors bought units with the idea that they would flip them. Now they can't flip them and are renting them out for significantly below their monthly costs. You can live in the same apartment and pay much less and they take the financial hit not you. Check out 20 Pine then compare what it would cost to rent there vs buy there. Then consider that when you rent you have no risk of other owners defaulting on their maintenance payments and you have no risk of what is going to happen to the prices there once the sponsor (or bank as the case may ultimately be) dumps the 80 or so unsold units on the market. I'm not sure how many contracts have been signed at 20 Pine in the last 60 days, but my guess is that 80 units represents a few years of inventory. There just aren't enough compelling arguments to warrant a purchase right now.