wedding, kids, next 5 years, will 1.5 BR do?

You will need MUCH more space -- at least a proper TWO bedroom.

You'd be surprised how much crap comes with babies, and it only gets worse as they get older. Kids need their own bedroom furniture, clothes, and let's not forget -- TOYS. They'll be everywhere. Of course, if you end up having one boy and one girl, once they reach school age, they'll each need their own rooms. Now you'll need a THREE bedroom as a minimum -- and at this point, that's less than seven years from now.

It's a hard choice, but you're going to have to either:

a) leave the city
b) not have kids
c) start making more money.

Matt,
How many kids do you have?

That was Matt's experience with having kids. You should listen to the voice of experience, jjun4733.

hotproperty, we're ALL Matt's kids.

not me...never.

p.s. have found that if matt suggests (commands is more like it) a left turn, you can never go wrong if you go right.

p.p.s. our kids(a boy and a girl) successfully shared a room until he turned 11 (and she was six).

Oh. I mixed up 'paternalistic' and 'patronizing'.

I stand corrected: We're all Matt's condescendees. Similar to kiddees, yet different.

Perhaps the rules for kids sharing a room are different up in hick country, CC.

Apology accepted. 3BRs is a must on the mainland, but not in NY.

congratulations on your engagement!

i give you 2 weeks of sleepless nights with 2 kids in your 1.5 bedroom before you embrace the garden state.

it sounds like you should rent for a while, at least until your family is complete and you know exactly how much space you guys can live with.

Live in the now. What if you break up? Go for the 1.5 that can work either way. Get the most for your money, stay in manhattan, look for low maintenance so you can have some breathing room if tuition etc comes into the picture; and there is NOTHING wrong with kids sharing rooms. With 800 sq feet you should be fine. Maybe you can even carve out two tiny kids room in the future if it really is necessary. Any if the future perfect falls apart at least you won't be stuck in some big empty house that you can't unload in Podunk, NJ.

Being I'm stuck in a 1 bedroom with a kid, I would highly suggest you NOT consider that an option. Both me, and the kid are miserable. It's also amazing how much cr@p kids have! and, I'm a minimalist by nature. However, we're in a great school district and are making due and weathering the financial storm.

No matter where you choose, make sure it's a well-respected public school - for your children's benefit, and also for re-sale purposes. Don't take the realtor's word on this, double check the apartment's address on the school district's website or the DOE office. Also, some of the school districts are being re-drawn in NYC - maybe check on the insideschools.com website to see if the area you are considering is one of the areas being affected.

Also, in NYC at least, I will closely watch the quality of the public schools. If the already small education budget continues to be chipped away... the burbs will certainly become a better option just based on quality of public education. Right now, NYC parents are making huge contributions (in some of the public schools) to the running of the public schools, but with everyone cash strapped the decrease in donations, and the decrease in funding can have a hard felt impact.

In addition, since you mentioned your future spouse's age... keep in mind IVF is not cheap, should you choose that route for kids! That may unexpectedly chip away at your savings. BTDT.

Considering the housing market, and the job market my advice would be continue to rent, continue to save and assess your options once bambino has appeared.

800-900 sq ft = a couple and 1 child. you can possibly have another newborn, but then you'll have to dump the apartment quickly.

it will be extremely difficult to show your apartment with a small child and a newborn.... the toys, diapers, bottles, clothing, it's just hard. i have a 3 br/2 bth that is in contract and it was at least 1 hr of complete craziness for us to show it. consider that we have 1300 sq ft and a large terrace.

Post a challenge: find me a 2 bedroom in Manhattan for less than $1m. Posters here are really good at searches, I bet someone will find a one-bedroom that can easily be convereted to a proper two, some underpriced properties, a cheap one with a studio for sale next door, whatever.

Rent 1 bed - Save - Have Kid - Re-assess if you will stay in the city - Buy 2 bed for long term

This was pulled off the market after owner didn't get her price. 1200 square foot 2/2 condo with dining room and maids room and laundry. CC's under 1000. Perfect for a young/growing family. Riverside park a block away (you WILL need a park) express subway, Whole Foods, etc etc... They're out there.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/391100-condo-243-west-98th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

I like Village's idea, and I'll start. We plan to put our 2 BR on the market this fall for about $735K. It's two bedrooms and a dining room, one bath. 900 square feet, pre-war full service co-op on the upper west side (well, near Columbia University, on Broadway). Another co-op on our block has two such apartments available for sale now in the high 500's and low 600's (it's not full service, no amenities except an elevator, I think). See http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/building/235-west-108-street-manhattan.

I'm sure a challenge like the one Village suggested will yield you several more similar suggestions.

http://www.halstead.com/detail.aspx?id=1687415

Good luck on that sale AJC10!!

AJC10

A little more on our first floor experience: I agree it's lovely to be able to walk right out of the building. Forgot your umbrella? No problem--just walk right back in. I also like it that my trips to the grocery store for last-minute ingredients can take less than 5 min. Our water pressure and temperatures are great--dreamy,really, BUT I know that other units on the first floor have complaints about both, so maybe I'm in a lucky line. The downside is that it can be noisy. When people on the higher floors send their kids to play in the lobby so that they can have some peace and quiet, we hear it. We hear every game of dodgeball and every kazoo-playing 5-year old. I guess the upside to that is that we can make as much noise as we want without bothering anyone else.

Spinnaker--I'm not a fool--I posted both of those comments momments apart (I'm on my lunch break), and so of course others would see them both together. I'm the first to concede that first floor living isn't for everyone, but it's been good to us. Others on that thread you reference (http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/13311-first-floor-apartments) are also discussing the pros and cons of living on the first floor, and several other posters besides me have discussed why they do like being on the first floor.

Anway, I'm not trying to market my apartment on these boards (I've seen what happens to people who do)--I just thought I'd contribute to the discussion about small two-bedrooms (and to the other one about first floors). Because I have found many helpful and honest discussions on these boards that have helped me work out my own questions about renovating, buying, and selling, I try to contribute my own honest comments that include both the good and the bad where I think I can be of help to others. Not sure why you are snarky about that, spinnaker.

jjun - what is your budget & area? you can find a true 2 bed/2 bath, in very good condition, for much less than $1mm, in Manhattan below 96th street.

Sorry AJC10... just struck me as a little odd that you would offer that you're selling and then point out some not so great attributes in almost the same breath. In fairness you did say you have good water pressure. I would trade good water pressure for a little kazoo sonata any day.

alex09, that one looks really nice, especially for the price. The maint is quite high (not sure what the sq footage is - might have missed it) but it seems that the listing price is discounted to reflect that. Plus I don't know how long its been on the market, maybe its open to neg?

Jjun, I join the other posters. If you're thinking of having kids (I have 2, ages 4 yrs. and 2 months) I see absolutely no point in trading space for so-called premium quality. Unless your mentality is "the Apthorp or bust!" (bust meaning NJ or LI) you can find plenty of spacious 2/2 convertible to 3br for below 900K in good school areas in Manhattan. I currently live in a 800 sqft 1br that I have converted into 2br with the 2 kids and I can tell you, it's not fun. It would be an absurd choice to spend up to 1M and only get that.

wow thanks, there were some great advices I haven't even thought about. love streeteasy.

Being the youngest of 3 brothers with one kid sister, I remember sharing the room with my sister until 5 when we moved to a bigger house. The funny thing is I don't remember much from that period. I don't think kids get bothered much with how small their space is. But as for the parent...2 weeks of sleepless nights with 2 kids, yeah I hear you..something to think about. Perhaps we should kidnap our nephews with their toys for couple of month to see if we can handle them in 800sf+ space. lol. And I guess we would have to lease a storage to declutter the baby space when we need to sell the place down the road.

Will keep the apartment hunt. Hopefully will get something that we could feel comfortable about with all our changing situations. Thanks again.

If you can barely afford the apartment, you are not going to be able to afford the lifestyle...

If I had a dollar for every friend/contact/acquaintance who thought they were going to stay in the city forever, and then had kids....

cc/alanhart... take it easy on the new kid (NYCMatt).....

junie.... having kids is a serious wake up call. Best to not "lock" yourselves into a financial situation.

Not to be a killjoy (just a little)... big financial decisions and having kids are the top 2 reasons/impetus for divorce. Just ask jon and kate....

So ask yourself, "how" compatible is the newbie guy and you w/ regards to religion, parenting style, money habits, future career/s, respective families, any drug history?, HIV tests, child rearing responsibilties.... etc etc etc. RE decision is the LEAST of your "questions." IMHO

yeah, I'm no risk taker when it comes to money, will not buy a place we could barely afford and that's why we are not going up above $1 million although we could afford it. I guess it comes down to whether or not we will be able to stand living with 2 small kids in 800 sf+ space (I'm thinking it will need to be atleast over 1000sf now) or rather how big does the space need to be to be comfortable when we become a growing family.

jjun4733,

its not a true two bedroom as the 2nd bedroom does not have a window (It does have an ac and was once a legal bedroom but lost the window when the neighboring building was built). As some have pointed out the listing is not accurate, as a result. it does total significantly more than 800 square feet by the fuzzy math, NY apartments use. I am an owner in the apartment, btw.

Thanks.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/416658-coop-345-east-56th-street-sutton-place-new-york

Village, i don't know anything about this apartment, it just came up in my search. but the bedrooms look huge (if this is accurate) and jjun4733 will appreciate the third little room when they inevitably need to separate their kids. chances are at least one of them will be a problem sleeper and the other will just get sick a lot. i have a 2 year old and a 6 month old, when they are babies that close in age they need to be separated. otherwise they will wake each other and you all night long and the future mrs. jjun4733 will lose her mind and run away.

alex - we have the exact same age split, and when one wakes up the other in the middle of the night you realize the rules around window bars are not so much to protect the kids from themselves, as from the parents....

i'm in a 2Br/2Bth with only 1 kid, no desire for a 2nd kid. but it's still small. we will NEED a 3Br eventually as we want a home office.

remember winter!!! if NYC would allow for an outdoors type of lifestyle during the whole year i'd say it's possible to make it without being depressed. but how many months per year will you be willing to put up with being cramped inside of a cubicle size home?

haha thanks W67thstreet, you crack me up. would not marry anyone unless it's the love of my life. that I will not compromise in life. everything else I can (even money) And it's based on her good heart and how happy we make each other. I think that's a good foundation for a happy marriage :)

yeah, I was hoping as a starter house, 1.5 Br would be enough, but will look more toward 2+ bedrooms. hopefully will be able to get one in a good pre-school district.

Rethinking the kids idea yet, jjun? You can always borrow the nephews when you feel like kiddies; their parents will be THRILLED - & think of all the money you'll save!

yeah drdrd, well they sure are expensive, especially to raise them in nyc for sure.

after my brother's wife had their baby thru c-section. they asked the doctor when she will begin to feel normal again? and I remember my mom saying, "When the kids go to college." thanks, mom!

Hi, I have three kids, so I can speak. Kids come with lots of stuff, but the city as well. You can take them to so many playgrounds, activities that you don't have to hoard your apt. Make no mistake, you will not be comfortable, and if you can spend more even if it makes you uncomfortable, do it. My two eldest are 8 and 6 and refuse to have their own bedroom. Congratulations for your great plans.

i had put together a list of about 15 properties under $1 million with two beds/two baths, decent space, and reasonable maintenance, when i hit the wrong key and lost it all (and I still had only gone through about 15 out of 49 pages of search results). but what i noticed was a number of properties that are on the market with the initial list price close to or even less than the recorded sales prices, a few in early 2005. This I had not noticed before, and although it's not my target market, I generally take a look at new listings to see trends.

i knew a family with 3 children in a 5th-floor walk-up rent controlled one bedroom. i can't even imagine. i'm in a largish two bed/two bath with one kid, but we'd love another half bath for the cat box! talk about spoiled.

i have a 16 month old. currently in a 1 br with an alcove converted into small br, approximately 900sqft. it actually works ok frmo a size perspective. the biggest issue i have is that the alcove is supposed to be a dining area, which means its placed right next to the kitchen - the result being if the kid is asleep, we cannot do anything in the kitchen. we've gotten used to it, but i'm looking to upgrade so i can actually cook at night when i want to..

long story short, with the proper layout, a 1.5br unit works for 1 kid, although i have a hard time imagining what it would be like with 2 kids. hope that helps.

I have no clue why this guy continues to mention "800 sqft below 1M" as his goal when alex09 has just posted for his benefit a 1300 sqft convertible 3br for 850,000. Parallel reality. Unless Sutton Place is ghetto in his book. Villager: That place is pretty new to the market, but there are plenty others in the market in that range. Considering the size of the apt. that 2000 maintenance is $1.5 psf, which is, sadly, not above average.

Look at the 2br + dining alcove lines in the Lincoln Towers. Solid financials, the mtce includes electricity in some buildings. If you pick in the northern part of the LT enclave, you're good for schools.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/416192-coop-180-west-end-avenue-lincoln-square-new-york

Many more examples. There is always a fair amount of inventory. Look for distressed sellers or estates (many oldies live in the LT). I bet you could get a 1300 sqft+ 2br for 900k in the next 2 years.

Also get the whole building floorplans if you can. If your economic situation improves, you can always annex the 1 bedroom or studio next door (done many, many times in these buildings).

Do not buy a starter home unless this is a starter marriage. Buy a home you can live in for a good long time. If you can't afford it, rent. We had a 2 br, 1 1/2 bath with two boys (rental) until the boys were 10 and 7 and killing each other. Then we got a live-in au pair and bought a classic 7 close to school. I believe it's essential to have at least one room per person (including bathroom) for those days when separation is essential - and 2 toilets for 3+ people -- for toilet-training emergencies if nothing else.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/418662-coop-50-riverside-drive-upper-west-side-new-york

02/18/2005 Previous Sale recorded for $935,000.
06/06/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Carol E Levy at $975,000.
06/30/2009 Price decreased by 2% to $959,000.

was on the market earlier for $1.25. unit presents better in the pictures for that listing. large 2 bed/3 bath, other F unit listed as 1300sf. don't know about the school, though.

well Trompiloco, $1 million was more of the top limit for mention's sake. We have gotten a word from my banker, considering my financials and credit history - considering the down payment and loan, would be something upto $1.1 mm. But as I might have mentioned in another post, I would like to get something way below that, considering all the major events that will happen in the next several years of our lives. bigger the cushion the better.

It wasn't the price that I wanted to get the feel for. it was more the space, as again, I would prefer to spend the least amount of money on the apartment for minimum space we would need to be comfortable for our circumstances looking down the road. And though apprehensive, I was wondering if it was doable to have two kids (say 1-3 year olds) sleep in the a small bedroom together if we were to get a 800-900 sf apartment. When we went to the open house for a 1.5 br, the (seller's) broker was suggesting that it would be perfect for our situation (which doesn't mean anythign as I don't believe what they say)

I do get a sense from the comments that a minimum of full size 2 bedroom(+) is required. so the search will be focused there. Thanks for all the inputs.

The living space is small, but if you don't have a lot of living room clutter the bedrooms aren't a bad size. No pictures of kitchen, but floors look nice. Good school. One and a half bath, which is nice with kids. I'm not sure what's up with that last elliman listing that's no longer available. If it's the same floorplan as 6A, it's at 2004 pricing, even accounting for lower floor.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/436928-coop-255-west-end-avenue-lincoln-square-new-york

10/16/2008 Previously Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $799,000.
07/13/2009 Listed in StreetEasy by Prudential Elliman at $649,000.
07/13/2009 Prudential Elliman Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $599,000.

AR, the story on that one is that they probably got cold feet after their last price cut and decided to delist at 599K and then relist at 649K again. I hope they get burned.

NYC10023, there already are several 2/2 in Lincoln Towers asking less than 900K. There is an estate on a high floor without terrace (140 WEA 15F) that just lowered its asking to 875K and a mint condition 2/2 with terrace but on 3rd floor went into contract for 879K (165 WEA 3N if I'm not mistaken. Maybe it was 185 WEA). Of course, since the turnout there is constant my advice would be wait a year or 2 and snatch one for 700K. BTW are you sure that the entire LT isn't zoned for PS199? The school is almost inside LT so I would be surprised and disappointed if some of its bldgs. weren't in the catchment. But I know there's been rezoning recently...

jjun: why don't we do this... since I already have the kids but I don't have 1M (more like 700K) why don't we trade places? You give me your 1M and I can get almost any 2/2 that I fancy. You get my 700K and then your question of raising kids in 800 sqft becomes relevant again?

good god. haven't read thru all of this and only read the your subject heading and 1st 2 sentences. My gut reaction to that is DON'T DO IT!!!! You can rent something much larger for much less money. Why tie yourself down like that? Good heavens.

if you can't afford at least 2 bedrooms, then you should be looking in the burbs, not Manhattan. The idea of having a 1.5 bedroom with 2 kids is absolutely horrible.

LT will all be 199 even with the change in 2010. The new lower boundary cuts off WEA to the river below 66th St keeping all of LT in cachement. However, with the stories of waitlists in other good school zones and the DOE's promise only to find a spot in your district, not necessarily nearby, I wouldn't count on anything for children not even conceived yet. School zone is a huge priority for parents who want public schools. As some people in expensive new apartments on Riverside Dr found out, they can change them after you've bought giving you the choice of private school, moving, or a school significantly worst than what you had planned.

Tromp: so far, the entire LT complex is zoned for PS199. But you never know ... To be ultra safe, northern end of LT should be fine because where is there to go except PS87? I haven't done a comprehensive search on the entire LT complex, focusing mainly on the northern end. The S. end tends to be cheaper.

255WEA, 2A seems like a great buy - was previously listed with ACL at less. However, the M57 & M72 bus stop is right in front of the building and 2A faces the bus stop.

There are 2brs in the prewar buildings bet. WEA & RSD on south side of 72nd hovering around the 1m mark. 235WEA has been cut up in a strange way, small apts. 260WEA has large 2brs, as does 246WEA (which has traditionally commanded a premium). 240WEA is an attempt at a condo conversion. 230WEA also has some 2br apts, but I believe mtce is on the high side for what you get. Some of the LT buildings look like they have high mtce but the price includes cable & utilities.

"Post a challenge: find me a 2 bedroom in Manhattan for less than $1m. Posters here are really good at searches, I bet someone will find a one-bedroom that can easily be convereted to a proper two, some underpriced properties, a cheap one with a studio for sale next door, whatever."

2 beds/1 baths for under $1 million are a dime a dozen. 2 bed/ 2baths, however, are a bit harder to find. As the posters above have mentioned, Lincoln Towers is a good option as the dining room can be turned into a 3rd bedroom. In co-op village on the LES, you can close off the terrace and convert it into a small bedroom.

If your child doesn't get into their zoned school for K, it's not the end of the world. Even the much-maligned PS191 is "okay" for K, one hears. Due to attrition, eventually your child should get into their zoned school. BTW, more families are leaving the UWS (despite being zoned for 199/87/9) in our school circles. Nothing like summertime to bring on the lust for a large house & a backyard.

Meme: you mean Riverside Blvd, not Drive. Any relation to Ms. Roth of PS9?

nyc10023, you're right, I meant Rivrside Blvd. And no, I'm not MeMe Roth and I've considered changing my screen name since learing of her.
I don't know anything about PS191 for K but do know that the test scores by 4th grade pretty bad. It would be nice if enough families from the buildings now in zone, 10 WEA, and other new nearby buildings did send their kids to 191 and try to fix the school from within. I wouldn't plan a real estate purchase around that possibility.

You can find many 2br 2bth in Yorkville under a million - and it will go down more.

UWSmom is right, as always. Rent enough space to live comfortably.

jjun4733 - "I guess it comes down to whether or not we will be able to stand living with 2 small kids in 800 sf+ space (I'm thinking it will need to be atleast over 1000sf now)".

So, you certainly don't NEED more than a one-room studio for 4, 5, or 6 people ;), but my guess is you'll WANT it. Do you want room to breathe? Space to "get-away" when the love of your life isn't being so lovely? We just spent the first year of our daughter's life in a one-bedroom. We're expecting baby #2 and are now in a 3 bedroom. Consensus is that we stayed in the 1-bedroom for 1 year too long (and that's coming from cheapo hubby!). Trust me (trust me, trust me) - with kids, you don't want to be cramped. I would say you need at least 2 bedrooms w/ 2 kids. Can't afford it? Then rent. How about visitors? With kids, will you have family/friends who want to come visit? This was a HUGE factor in us moving into a 3 bedroom. Our one-bedroom with no room for guests in a very expensive city negatively impacted our quality time with family. Now, we have a place for them to stay (small maid's room = very nice flex space). Something to think about.

My advice- rent until you can afford more space than you need. Rent until you're 110% certain that this is where you're going to be long-term. Room to breathe will contribute to the quality of your life. Turst me!

or, trust me ;)

"The idea of having a 1.5 bedroom with 2 kids is absolutely horrible."

Yeah, I absolutly agree, but I guess from my stand point, though eager to buy a place and settle down, starting with a 2 bedroom with a bigger maintenance, tax, interest, doesn't seem so appetizing all the same (eventhough I could afford it). Ideally, I think from financial standpoint, it is better to minimize the place you live in and with the money left over, it is smarter to buy another place (investment property) somewhere in the country to rent out (probably won't be manhattan, can't afford that) Being used to doing the 1 br search up till now, I just got thinking that looking down the 5 year horizon, it will only be the last 1 year or so that our first born child will have to share the room with a baby, at which point we will probably have to look for a bigger place.....all hypothetically speaking - we are not even married yet. But all of these needs to be addressed if I am to make a major purchase like this.

But again, I agree, 1.5 br is probably a bad idea. I think I could even rent out the other bedroom in a 2 bedroom if we feel that it's waste of extra room for the period before kids. though we will have to secrifice privacy if we do that, so will unlikely happen...

It is sort of nerve racking thinking of buying our first place.. lot of things to think of.

and Trompiloco, no deal.

"all hypothetically speaking " - don't plan your life based on hypotheticals. Again, trust me ;). Good luck jjun.

jjun- i'm confused. why don't you just rent the amount of space that you need when you need it?

uwsmom, I hear ya. We haven't had our first fight yet, believe it or not, through all the time we have known each other, so am not thinking that we would need breathing room. I listen to reason and I agree that quality of life is better choice than smart investment decision.

"I listen to reason and I agree that quality of life is better choice than smart investment decision."

well, you can certainly have both. Just make sure it really is a SMART investment decision rather than, well, not-so-smart.

just don't rush into anything. prices aren't going up. take your time, rent for awhile, keep looking, and buy when you find something that will suit you, your budget AND your future offspring as well. you and yours haven't fought yet, but two kids and two adults in a confined space could make mother teresa yell.

also consider, when looking, that if the second bedroom is relatively spacious the master may be a candidate for division, depending on layout, particularly if there are two full baths in the unit, giving two children their own space (although one child may need to use a hall closet).

jjun - are you a gay man, b/c i can't imagine a relationship containing a woman w/o a fight every now and then ;).

Good luck with everything. Best!

Try this:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/362021-condo-455-east-86th-street-yorkville-new-york

PS290 school zone, nice building with a lot of amenities, near a great park, close enough to the subway.

lol certainly not gay (though I have nothing against them)
meant to say that I "was" (not "am") not thinking of needing room to get away. I certainly expect us to fight going forward. I just haven't thought about needing that breathing room, since it was not required before, but absolutely agree with you about needing space going forward.

uessejunky, carrying costs are a bit high, especially as $1 mil is at jjun's high end. but that is quite some listing history.

11/18/2005 Previous Sale recorded for $960,000.
05/04/2006 Previously Listed in StreetEasy, already in contract, by Prudential Elliman at $1,325,000.
07/25/2006 Previous Sale recorded for $1,365,000.
09/19/2008 Prudential Elliman Listing is no longer available. Last priced at $1,375,000.
11/04/2008 Listed in StreetEasy by Corcoran at $1,495,000.
01/29/2009 Price decreased by 5% to $1,425,000.
02/27/2009 Price decreased by 2% to $1,399,000.
03/24/2009 Price decreased by 4% to $1,350,000.
04/03/2009 Price decreased by 4% to $1,299,000.
04/16/2009 Price decreased by 8% to $1,199,000.
05/07/2009 Price decreased by 4% to $1,149,000.
05/26/2009 Price decreased by 4% to $1,099,000.
06/11/2009 Price decreased by 4% to $1,050,000.
07/02/2009 Price decreased by 5% to $999,000.

Jjun: I had my first fight with my partner post-baby (and I am not a hormonal type at all, no PMS in my entire life).
This is after 7 years together (4+ years of marriage).

Sharing a 1-bedroom as a couple was okay for the first 3 years of cohabitation. Never felt the need for a bigger space. Due to the vicissitudes of RE pricing, we moved into a small 2-bedroom (large master, but 10x10 2nd br) after 3 years and it felt awesome.

i yelled at my husband on our first date (and haven't really stopped). I envy level-headed people!

uwsmom, my husband claims that he agreed to marry me because i had a butcher knife in my hand when i asked him when he might get around to thinking about the issue (and we were in the very small kitchen of our very small hell's kitchen studio). that's not quite how i remember it, but i know how you feel.

well, i'm now and have been a brooklyn person for some time partly because i'm a space and outdoor space freak. and a neat freak. i left a 1000 sq foot+ space with storage and a yard when we had a kid cause i couldn't deal. now have 2000 sq ft - 2 big bedrms, play space and guest room office with a big kitchen and proper dining room. storage situation also good. i could never deal with a kid in 900 sq feet. way too small. bought for the long run in the burg and couldn't be happier. ended up in a condo bldg with tons of kids, so built in friends, sitter sharing and other parents to pitch in watching the kids outside.
kid easily got into an awesome pre-k. great prek's here and no overcrowding. feelin lucky.
my 2 cents...

As a mom of two kids (5 and 2), I'll give my 2 cents. I commend you for thinking ahead. I think people with kids make certain home choices others wouldn't make.

- You mentioned zoned for a good pre-school. In Manhattan, except in RARE circumstances, you are limited to private preschool. There are good private preschool options all over Manhattan. Preschool is often started at 5 years old. Kindergarten starts at 5 years old....if you turn it by Jan 1 of that school year for public and for privates.....some say the cut off is August 1st before Kindergarten starts. Privates don't like young kids. SO, if you are REALLY planning and want to have private option, shoot for a January-March baby. ;)

- Even if you are not a foodie (which I am not) a sizable kitchen is good, one that holds bottles, baby crap and a high chair. I'd almost take an eat in kitchen over a formal dining room. I know people on here strongly disagree with this.

- Storage is a must! I wouldn't go lower than 1000 square feet.

- Regarding good zones for Kindergarten.....you have at least 6 years. All the "coveted" elementary schools are so crowded. Within the next 6 years I think there will be major rezoning. Unless you are directly across the street from your dream elementary, don't bet you will be zoned for it. Also, you may want private. In 6 years, if you need to move, I don't think you will take a hit. Of course, the super bears on here will disagree with me on that. ;)

- Proximity to playgrounds is a must. Riverside is lovely. You sometimes take the kids to the park 3 times a day.

- Obviously for your price point and my suggested square footage, you may have to make sacrifices. A view may have to go, but if it has light, I'd be okay with that.

- I'd suggest looking from 98th street -115th West of Broadway.....or a nice building right on broadway on the east side. I think you will get the most bang for your buck and it is a very family oriented neighborhood.

There is no doubt that owning gives you a special feeling. At this point in your life, I would suggest you rent until your are more settled on exactly what you are going to do. And if buying, do not get anything smaller than a 2/2. Some layouts will give you the option of adding a 3rd bedroom or playroom/office. When you do buy, if you are planning on staying for a while as the kids grow, pick a good school district, unless you are sending to a private school. You should be able to find a nice, decent 2/2 in a good school district for no more than $800,000 in this market and between 1000sf and 1200sf. Do not settle for less space then that or you will be unhappy.

jjun: here's our reality and opinion..not suggesting its yours or should be anyone else's...we have 2 kids <2yr in 2 br and we feel TOTALLY cramped...i never wouldve realized this before they came along...we've all gone stir crazy on any number of days and are looking for 3br or flex 3 with at least 1500 sq ft, but would prefer 1700-1900, FOR RENT...we have 3 other friends who have 2 kids and everyone either went to 3 brs or left the city...we rent now and wont consider buying until at least Aug 2010 and potentially 2011 because prices are in free fall in nyc as many have noted on these boards: we dont want to catch a falling knife...+ we need flexibility to move depending upon school choices, which we wont make until considerably later...

the kids need space to run around and as others have noted here, have a ton of stuff...we have a flex 3 lined up with another bldg thats 20% less rent than our current 2br and have been finding wonderful deals in the rental mkt...we will prob make a decision soon, after several other bldgs get back to us on how far theyre willing to lower their asking rents...

i would agree with comment from poster above that its very hard to plan for the kids and whatever other circumstances arise prior to marrying, but very thoughtful of you to think about it...i would suggest remaining flexible and buying removes some level of flexibility

hope this is helpful

You have to consider your transaction costs of getting in & then out of a too-small apartment if you buy the wrong size now. If your 2 children are of the same gender you may have the option of them sharing a room but kids do have the annoying habit of loving to hate their sibling. You said that your gf isn't making any real money so why not plan to comfortably live on your income & put hers into the RE/college fund.

AR and UESjunky, to list that apt. as 1500 sqft is a masterpiece of size inflation. It has 2 11x14 bedrooms, a 12x8 dinning area and a 17x14 LR. All that put together doesn't even add up to 700. So they claim its 2 baths, kitchen and useless areas add up to 800+. Outrageous. I hope it sells for 500K.

tromp, after seeing the cc's i didn't even look at the floor plan, just stared in amazement at the mess that is the listing history. the floor plan explains, at least in part, the lack of sale. agreed, not even close to 1500sf.

I might get accused of being stevejhx again, but I would say - rent! You are not yet married and you don't have kids - you have no idea what you will want and need.

My wife and I rented a junior 4 which worked when it was the two of us and was ok with the first kid. But then we realized (a) we wanted to be closer to the park and (b) we really wanted some sort of outdoor space. Lease came up, we found a bigger place, closer to the park, with a huge terrace. Easy. Had we bought that junior 4, adjusting to our changing needs/wants would have been much more difficult and costly.

trinityparent and uwsmom are right - the concept of starter home doesn't make any sense unless you're renting it.

I can't believe some people suggest to move to the suburbs. You are having kids, you're not dying. Lots of my friends live in one bedroon apt with two kids (most of them go away 2 we per month). I is tough but it is a choice between raising kids in a city where they can live amazing moments, where they can get an open and ery rich mind, or move to the suburb where they can be spoiled with amazing toys and trips to the ice cream parlor. Depends on your ambitions, I suppose.

"the concept of starter home doesn't make any sense unless you're renting it" agree. this wasn't obvious during the bubble cause transaction costs were passed on to the future owner. but now they should be taken into account.

i repeat, WINTER sucks in a tiny space (full disclosure, i'm on the claustrophobic side). Big closets are key. i have a walking closet right next to the entrance where we "park" the stroller (that folds, it's a city mini, HIGHLY recommend this to a baby SUV). if you follow through with your plan, you will develop skills on keeping the place uncluttered that will shock friends/family that have houses 3 times as big as yours.

now, why "investing" in a property to rent out when you can have RE exposure the easy way with professionals working for you with tiny bitty transaction costs is beyond me. please don't take for granted the deduction for 2nd homes will keep on being there forever. if that changes while you are owning one, you might become the bag holder.

congrats wisco! i love to see people making the most of this somewhat complex decision.

I don't know anyone with 2 kids who is truly happy in a 1-bedroom apt, or 3 kids who are happy in their 2-bedroom apt. It's one thing to take advantage of NYC, another thing to HAVE to go outside because your apt is closing in on you.

"I can't believe some people suggest to move to the suburbs. You are having kids, you're not dying. Lots of my friends live in one bedroon apt with two kids (most of them go away 2 we per month). I is tough but it is a choice between raising kids in a city where they can live amazing moments, where they can get an open and ery rich mind, or move to the suburb where they can be spoiled with amazing toys and trips to the ice cream parlor."

Yeah, living in the suburbs is absolutely horrible. I can't imagine anyone rasiing kids with a hige backyard and a finished basement. Must be horrible comapred to a 1 bedroom apt. with 4 people.

President -- I concur.

Absolutely no "amazing moments" are ever to be had in the suburbs! That can ONLY happen in the city, and ONLY in the following ZIP codes: 10014, 10011, 10012, 10013, 10023, 10024, 10021, and 10028.

thanks for all the helpful comments. Many of you are suggesting that I rent for now, especially as our circumstances and preference will likely change rapidly along with marriage snd kids going forward. I guess for me, the whole reason I started looking for an apartment was because I felt I was ready to own, financially and mentally and along with marriage I wanted to settle down. I am certain that NYC is where I want to be in long term, and also frankly have grown sick of renting, moving from one place to another, and not being able to make renovations the way I want to my own place. (And I don't want to turn this into a rent vs buying conversation) But it certainly makes sense, as alot of you have suggested at this point, to wait to commit (apartment, not marriage lol). I think it won't be too late to buy a 2-3 BR when my fiance (by then, wife) is pregnant and we definitely will need a larger space. It;ll be sooner than later, probably next year. But at the same time I will continue look around to see if there are anything out there that would make sense for us to commit even today. thanks again.

wisco -That sounds great! What neighborhood/building are you in?

I have kids but no playroom - am wondering if those with a playroom (I know many of the large building, sespecially on the UWS often have playrooms). This may make a huge difference with toys, clutter, noice, etc. especially in the Winter. That said, we've all discussed how much of an advatange a playroom really is and I believe the consesus was its used for just a few years so its not really worth a premium ... however .... if you guy early like JJun is considering - then at least you wring every minute of value out of it!! I know my nanny would love it if our building had one.

Why not rent but keep up a semi-active search of highly specific critera in case exactly what you are looking for does happen to come on the market? Maybe even just limit to a number of buildings in whatever neighborhood you want with whatever amenities you want?

Whatever you chosoe - good luck!

Don't give up. I bought a true two bed (unfortunately only one bath) in a doorman building/prime neighborhood/excellent school district for way less than $1MM at the height of the boom. Hint, some of the "older postwar" buildings have developed charm and character over the years but don't have the "prewar" premium.

If you're otherwise ready to buy, just buy. I'm a single gal buying a convertible-2 (extra-large bedroom with two exposures that could be split for a nursery or study) - sure my life can change in the next 5 years, sure I could get married and/or have triplets. Or not. But what's the alternative? I wait around another 5 years and say (again) "I should've bought 5 years ago"?

I'm wary of overbuying - why pay every month now for space and amenities that you won't actually need for years? I think it's easier to set a goal of buying a place that will be flexible enough in the short term, and reasonably likely to sell at a profit (or at least break-even) in 5 years if your life changes. Can you put up with buying something in estate condition and fixing it up while you're still a bachelor?

I looked at Lincoln Guild (303 W. 66th) and a friend of mine bought there. If you want space and flexibility, all of the apartments there have windowed dining areas and enclosable terraces. 1BRs are in the $500s and occasional 2BRs are <$1M.

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A key?
What's it open?
A SARDINE CAN!

How'se my little family doing?

Steel cage match?

You don't say...............