Noooooooooooooooo.... corruption in Unions? NOoooooooooooo!

how come is even a union of carpenters?? what's next? a union of waiters? dry cleaners?

no wonder right-to-work states are where the growth is and union ones are sinking. if you are young without even the dream of a benefits based pension, why paying these people's benefits?

Admin, I'm in academia (non-union) and I wonder the same thing. Sure seems like some cushy bennies that I won't be getting, while I get to both fork over for a bunch of whiny boomer babies AND serve their every (moronic) whim.

Alleging that all unions are corrupt is as stupid as alleging that all bankers are evil.

evnyc, if you want the "cushy bennies", then get off your cushy a$$ and fight for then like the rest of us UNION folk did. No one is going to do it for you.

> Alleging that all unions are corrupt is as stupid as alleging that all bankers are evil.

Thats not a good analogy.

Unions are all corrupt like the big banks are... perhaps.
Union members are not all corrupt, just like a lot of bankers.

The big difference here, though, is that in many cases the sheer existence of the union is corruption. Unions get politicians elected - with no restrictions on money or time, vs. businesses - and then the same unions "bargain" with the elected officials.

Its corruption even before they "do" anything corrupt.

You can't scare me.

Hmm...Enron, WorldComm, Merrill Lynch, Lehman Brothers, Wachovia.

At least they don't pay their officers billions for crime and incompetence.

Interesting examples that Steve provided, sorta makes the case.

Those companies are GONE. Bad corporations can die.

Bad unions don't, they often just get more powerful and corrupt.

matt can't decide if he's union or management. which ever sounds better depending on his ridiculous point at the moment.

I will not argue that unions had their place and time and some value.

But they are...

1) dying outside of states they run politics in (which happen to be the low growth states)
2) dying in the private sector
3) grasping at the straws of government to stay relevant.

Without their ability to elect politicians in New York - because of the laws made by those same politicians - would anybody really be claiming they were needed?

NYCMatt, piss off. I bust my a$$, thank you very much.

10022, you can add "supported primarily by wanna-be commies in academia."

Unions can do good things for workers, but their politics are disgraceful and shortsighted. That said, if I do get on the tenure track I'll cheerfully take my cushy bennies - assuming the current lot haven't totally bankrupted the schools by then.

> 10022, you can add "supported primarily by wanna-be commies in academia."

Correct, I forgot that.

> Unions can do good things for workers, but their politics are disgraceful and shortsighted

Well, they shouldn't be in politics. To me, no way a union should be negotiating with a politician it PAID FOR. That is the definition of corruption.

And things like Obama's card check bill? You have to be kidding me.

And if workers can unionize, how about letting employers collude?

Well, there was a point at which there was a need for them to put pressure on politicians to make breaking strike lines illegal and so forth. But that moment passed a long time ago. I don't begrudge them being "in politics" any more than any other interest group (which is to say that I more or less resent them all). And it REALLY pisses me off when I have to sit there listening to some self-righteous union member claiming they represent the "middle class." Right. Once upon a time, maybe, but not in my lifetime.

"Bad unions don't, they often just get more powerful and corrupt."

Tell that to the Teamsters. Unions can be taken over by the government directly; corporations can't.

"To me, no way a union should be negotiating with a politician it PAID FOR."

That would violate freedom of assembly and freedom to petition the government. It seems that what you don't like is what unions stand for, so you want to stifle them.

"how about letting employers collude"

You need to read up on the legal concept of equity and freedom of contract. For the most part, for a contract to be legal it must be freely entered into by both parties. For that to occur both parties must be equal. In the case of an employer / employee, there is no equality.

In industries in which there are just 2 or 3 large companies - most all major industries - collusion need not occur to distort the job market. Read about the powers of oligopolies, Verizon and AT&T, for instance.

Really nyc, you need to stop posting about things you don't know about.

Sheesh.

> Unions can be taken over by the government directly; corporations can't.

Uh, Steve, did you REALLY just say that?

The funniest part is, who owns Chrysler!?!?!?

> In the case of an employer / employee, there is no equality

And, in the case of a union and one company or developer, there is no equality either!

> Really nyc, you need to stop posting about things you don't know about

Steve, if you followed your own medicine, you'd post about 90% less than you do now.

and so my dog eating friend (oh NO, I'm gonna get a lot of shit for that)... you believe Manning "deserves" $90MM, roid boy $250MM, Kat/Jon make a living off of parading (how many kids did she squeeze out lately?) 20 kids around...?

The Waterfront image is way past and gone... goons that keep people $20/hr to direct traffic..... while their construction buddy gets lunches for everyone at the bodega.... (always with a side of BEER!!!!!). LMAO. I've worked retail and was always amazed to see the contruction guys buying beer for lunch.... yep the guys that move 20 ton concrete 100 feet above your head!!!

One other thing, why can't my wife unionize? Could you imagine a more unequal relationship than an ivy teaching hospital versus a $200K in debt 6th yr fellow making $50K/yr? Wherez your sympathy their? My korean loving friend?

oh, and missed this one:

> "To me, no way a union should be negotiating with a politician it PAID FOR."
> That would violate freedom of assembly and freedom to petition the government. It seems that what
> you don't like is what unions stand for, so you want to stifle them.

Except that this IS illegal if you are a corporation (well, outside of pay for play states like NY, but its on its way and still illegal in many cases here).

Plus, business contributions are capped, union contributions are not!

Steve, for someone who just said that someone else doesn't know much about something, you know an AWFUL little here.

> Unions can be taken over by the government directly; corporations can't.

roftl.

still laughing on that one.

> Sheesh.

exactly.

> I don't begrudge them being "in politics" any more than any other interest group (which is to say
> that I more or less resent them all

Yes, everybody has their hands out.

Difference is... limits get set on everyone else - individuals, corporations, PACs, etc. - but the unions manage to have relatively few.

my favorite union story is that, when constuction ground to a halt in NYC, developers asked unions for some concessions. They begged for all the unions to coordinate their holidays, so, you know, people that are working on something together are all there at the same time.

Union finally agreed to this after soeme developer concessions.

Except, uh, you have to "apply" for this right to not have stupidity in your workplace. The union can say no.

"To me, no way a union should be negotiating with a politician it PAID FOR."

> That would violate freedom of assembly and freedom to petition the government

Steve, where did you take your government class? Canada?

You think campaign contribution limits are illegal?

"The funniest part is, who owns Chrysler!?!?!?"

The US government. What the union owns is in lieu of healthcare benefits.

"And, in the case of a union and one company or developer, there is no equality either!"

Of course there is. It is, in fact, equal. What is unequal is one company against unorganized employees. They have no bargaining power. There's a reason why senior management is now making like 300 times what average employees make, when in the past it was about 35 times.

No bargaining power.

"Steve, where did you take your government class? Canada?"

The right to unionize has been recognized on constitutional grounds for 100 years. You really need to stop.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/06/movies/06schulberg.html?hp

Speak of the devil.

bump4

> What the union owns is in lieu of healthcare benefits.

And its still WHAT THEY OWN! You can change the subject and try to talk about WHY, but they own it, despite being way behind in the creditor line!

Sheesh, really.