solid v. engineered wood flooring

Personally, I HATE the engineered flooring with the beveled edges. I hate the grooves (which will trap dirt), I hate the way it makes them scream "ENGINEERED FLOORING - NOT REAL WOOD". I hate that you can't sand them down refinish them. But they are a lot cheaper.

I hate those beveled edges so much that they're out of the question for me. Oddly enough, I love plywood squares (but I'm probably the only person who does). Is it an ex-Mitchell-Lama building?

I've been very happy with the no-bevel Ikea flooring that I installed over concrete a couple of years ago. It's basically a "wall-to-wall" floor covering and priced accordingly, and I expect the lifespan to be not much more than 10 years. 1/8" (?) thick click-lock engineered wood (so it's a [birch] veneer, not laminate) installed over a foamy roll-out layer.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40125965

Oh, and they're not glued down ... they "float", which works out much better than it sounds, because they click-lock together.

It's so funny that in NY the only acceptable flooring is wood so even "fake" flooring has to look like wood. If you put down a very expensive granite tile floor throughout, most people would hate it and it would probably devalue the apartment. But put some plastic crap down that looks like wood and you're fine. (alan - that was NOT directed at your choice).

Go with solid wood. Everyone loves solid wood. Some people are ok with engineered, but many LOATHE it. Solid wood is the safer, more durable bet in the long run.

I'm with 30 yrs. I detest those micro-bevels. Dreadful.

Do yourself a favor and get real wood. You won't regret it, especially in the long run.

I was thinking of getting wood floors. any suggestions of what store to go to?

Hire a reputable contractor to do it and let them buy the materials.

Thanks for the opinions. Does your opinion on this change if we can only install a thinner solid wood floor? One of the flooring people told me that because of the height of my front door, I do not have enough clearance for a 3/4" solid wood floor. He would have to use a thinner product.

You definitely do't need a 3/4" solid wood floor - a thinner product is very often used.

I would go with engineered. I had hardwood in my old apartment and the wood was prone to warping and shrinkage, especially in winter. It was inch thick solid maple. My current floors are oak engineered and have no beveling. I've had wine, bleach, boiling tea spilled over the years and no damage whatsoever. On my old maple floors, a small dishwasher leak resulted in replacing several planks. It's also very kid friendly. It's a personal preference choice, but having had both, I'm definitely happier with the engineered.

I can recommend http://www.internetfloors.com/ much cheaper than buying locally, just make sure you order the right amount as the delivery charge is steep for an extra box. Although if you just need one or two more box you could get that locally (and use it where the fabled color discrepencies wont show - like in the closets - modern manufacturing means this is unlikely to be significant).

As far as engineered vs full wood; It really depends how long you want it to last. Enginneered can be refinished, by generally only once - rugs can then be used to cover worn patches. Whole wood can be refinised 4 or 5 times but styles change and the chances that it will still be down in 30 year are low. finally it is possible to patch both types of floor, if you can find a willing contractor - most like to redo$ the whole room/apartment (a friend recently reduce his $30,000 new floor bill to $3,000 this way).

And it's weird, but I feel that walking on engineered floors makes a distinctly different sound than walking on full hardwoods.

If you have small children or you or your partner is planning to become pregnant while living in this apartment I'd steer clear of engineered flooring, which will off-gas all sorts of unhealthy chemicals.

Also, real wood flooring will help your apartment hold its value in the long-run.

Ultimately, you get what you pay for.

Real wood can last up to 100 years. It's natural, healthy, and (when properly harvested) good for the environment.

Engineered wood is expected to last only about 10 years. It's loaded with chemicals, is not natural, and is not good for the environment.

Real wood is not good for the environment--chopping trees so u can walk on them is not great. Bamboo is the 'environmental' choice. I've had both engineered and real wood and the annoying thing about real wood is the scratching and pock marks. Had a party and the ladies' high heels left all these pock marks on the floors. That doesn't happened with engineered.

That whole "environmental", "green" trend was 2007. Get with the times, or post on apartmenttherapy instead. Human bodies are loaded with chemicals and are not natural; petroleum is organic. Forests burn if they're not harvested for engineered floors and toilet paper frequently enough.

The hollow sound doesn't happen when the floor's floated over a foam underlayment, unless there are large voids beneath it.

My husband put dark engineered floors in his office lobby/foyer/hallway 3 years ago and they have already scratched. He had them put in because they were cheaper and much easier to install. He regrets it now as there are scratches that can't be sanded out. Maybe a lighter color would be okay buy I would stay away from darker engineered floors.

"And it's weird, but I feel that walking on engineered floors makes a distinctly different sound than walking on full hardwoods. "

As ah mentioned earlier, many engineered floors are installed "floating". As a result you may hear a more "hollow" sound when walking on them because however so slight, there is some air under the floor between the flooring and the subflooring. Also, engineered flooring is in general harder than wood (even different wood specials vary a lot in hardness: this site will give you a good comparison of the properties of different woods which you might use for flooring: http://www.woodfinder.com/woods/woodindex.php

"I had hardwood in my old apartment and the wood was prone to warping and shrinkage, especially in winter. It was inch thick solid maple."

Was this relatively new flooring or old? The conditions you describe sound like the wood was installed too soon after being cut and not aged or treated properly.

No, maple is just a very poor choice for floors -- it cups at the slightest hint of humidity. Birch is the closest sensible match. Maple is good for cupboards. (I like the word "cupboards".)

You know maple was used in a lot of older loft buildings and has endured rough use for 100 years with little signs of distress. That's why I'm wondering about the age, because the maple that I've seen which is 100 years old looks better in most cases than anything which has been installed in the last 10.

mrgdess - Are you going to use any type of underlayment for soundproofing and impact noise reducing applications, and if so, what are you planning to use?

30yrs, in my (admittedly limited) experience, it's not the drying, it's the wood itself. For most species, trees harvested 100 or even 50 years ago were more mature at the time of harvest and came from different locations than what is available today. In the case of maple, it may also be the use of different species. Both hard maple (rock maple, sugar maple) and soft maple (red maple, silver maple) are used for flooring.

You are definitively correct that framed "fast growth" trees fare much differently than "old growth". So much so that at one time (I don't know how big the business is today) there were businesses which would drag former logging route rivers to pull up old logs and sell old growth at a premium price. You are also correct about "different locations" as that an awful lot of what is now sold as Mahogany is actually Brazilian Cherry (how do they get away with that?).

But I can also say that I'm almost positive some of the issue is in the drying, because I have a unique direct experience:. About a dozen years ago, we were doing a renovation in a Coop and another unit owner was doing one at the same time. My carpenter new their carpenter fairly well, and in talking it turned out that we were both planning on placing rather small orders of ?4"? wide plank maple flooring, so we got together and placed 1 order and saved (percentage wise) a decent amount of money. They were in a bit of a time crunch, so they installed theirs immediately. We waited a week, sent it out to be kiln dried, and then installed it. I had an opportunity to see both units about 6 years later and teh difference was amazing.

framed = farmed

30yrs, Thanks for the interesting story. I agree kiln drying made the difference. I thought kiln drying was required for the product to make its grade. Either it isn't or it is insufficient. Good to know.

downtownsnob, I've been thinking about your comment ("Had a party and the ladies' high heels left all these pock marks on the floors. That doesn't happened with engineered.") and have two suggestions. First, some older wood floors are not poly sealed, they are waxed. You might find this when old carpeting is removed. The heels may have crushed the wax, but it is surprising they would actually dent the floor. Try buffing the floor. If that helps, the long-term solution is either repeated waxing/buffing or a few coats of poly, but poly will change the natural look of the wood. Second, if indeed the floor is dented, try steaming out the dents. Try this on a small inconspicuous area first because I can't know what you have. Put a damp towel over the area and apply an iron, just hot enough to create steam. (Don't use a steam iron or other direct heat on the floor; it may discolor.) This should release the crushed wood fibers. The raised grain may be rough to the touch, but don't sand it; it will settle when it is thoroughly dry and need no or just slight sanding. This method works for dents, but not gouges (where material was actually removed).

"I thought kiln drying was required for the product to make its grade."

a) depends on what the grade is: lots of contractors use inferior grades because the owners of the units don't realize there is a difference, and
b) i don't think Ive gotten an order of flooring in the last 20 years which lived up to the stated standards of what that grade is supposed to be.

"b) i don't think Ive gotten an order of flooring in the last 20 years which lived up to the stated standards of what that grade is supposed to be."

True that. My experience is more with furniture and it's hard to find good boards. Thanks again for your insight.

We have Santos Mahogany but dogs, high heels, etc take a huge toll. I would probably take a few samples of whatever you consider and try to key the crap out of it and see how it looks.

Every High Rise in Manhattan has engineered wood. Pretty Sure I saw it used in AOL Time Warner. Don't believe solid plank is used at all.

30yrs: agree. I look at 100yo oak "parquet" floors, and they don't seem to exhibit the same wear and tear as new oak floors, even if you pay for "top" quality.

Question for the thread:

Is there a way to discern between engineered and solid Brazilian Cherry?

The developer of my building swears it's solid, but my inspector thought it to be engineered. Of course I'm loath to believe a developer, but I also want to treat the floor with proper respect if the inspector was incorrect.

All thoughts appreciated!

"Real wood can last up to 100 years. It's natural, healthy, and (when properly harvested) good for the environment."

Thats a big "can". A lot of the wood sold is crap, especially the new growth stuff. Good engineered with likely outlast it.

10022. Not necessarily so.

Engineered wood is less susceptible to moisture damage ,and I don't know about you but I don't see myself living another 100 years. Knowing what I know now. I'll go with engineered.

littlewest: what do you do when you're in a bar (ok, outside Manhattan - one with a parking lot) and some rude asshole spills his beers all over you and just laughs about it?

i used prefab floors --- my friend had custom. My floors were consistent and beautiful. She had staining issues. Mt floors were placed in two days. One day for planks, soundprofing and leveling, one day for installation. Hers took a week and a half. Nightmare. My floors were half the price (1800 sq ft).

i used prefab floors --- my friend had custom. My floors were consistent and beautiful. She had staining issues. Mt floors were placed in two days. One day for planks, soundprofing and leveling, one day for installation. Hers took a week and a half. Nightmare. My floors were half the price (1800 sq ft).

The Sly Manhattan Fox wins!

My front fire door, closet doors and two California Closet organizers limited the depth of a replacement floor in my apt. I also didn't want the thickness of a sub floor and wood floor to overwhelm the height of the kitchen and bath floors. I chose a very high quality engineered wood floor recommended by my installer. He ripped out the old thin parquet. The new floors look great; they feel and sound solid. I love the factory finish, guaranteed for 25 years. The engineered part stabilizes the wood better than a traditional floor, and the solid wood layer is thick enough to be re-sanded and refinished 2 or 3 times.

Good luck! :)

any recent experiences with this and /or suggestions on the brand of engineered wood to use ?

We put down engineered wood floors about 18 months ago, (Somerset Brand), and we are sorry that we did not pull up the old parquest, and put down custom wood floors. The engineered floors do not have as good a finish on them as our oak floors that were sanded and refinished "in situ". We have had no swelling or warping, but the saddle that was put in between the new floor, and the existing wood in the library does swell in hot, humid weather.

We have two and a half year old engineered wood that the previous owners put in. It looks horrible, beaten up and damaged. Out it goes. You can tell it is engineered from a mile away, any competent broker will point this out to buyers and you will not be paid for the investment.

Engineered wood floors are common in new construction for sound reasons, plus they are environmentally friendly and economical. My floors still look amazing and are completely solid and even. I'm glad I didn't follow some neighbors' lead and install expensive solutions over a sub floor. My entry door is intact, and there is no slope or awkward level change at the entry, kitchen and bathroom. These complications arise when retrofitting a sub floor in a concrete slab building that originally had parquet tiles (eg most postwar Manhattan construction).

Our soon-to-be-removed engineered floors have horrible slope issues, are unnaturally glossy, have considerable flex, have irregular color (you can tell where the installer switched boxes of floor while walking across the living room), and are uneven. My understanding is that you generally need the subfloor - ours has a subfloor (the old parquet tiles were removed to put in that subfloor) that we are told can be reused for when we install proper floors. Perhaps ours were particularly bad or not well done, who knows. The workplan for replacing these floors with good stuff does not involve replacing any doors.

If you obviously scrimp on quality on one part of a comprehensive reno, people will assume the entire reno was done badly and will value your apartment accordingly.

mucuk, you had a bad experience. There are billions of dollars of new construction successfully using engineered wood floors in NYC.

I used engineered wood floors (the brand I believe is Triangulo). No complaints at all. I think they look great; friends have complimented me on them. Maybe some of the issues identified above are because of poor installation.

I have seen a do-it-yourself (inexperienced) installer use bamboo (a similar product to engineered wood) with very poor long term results. It is important to hire someone experienced when replacing floors.

Bamboo floors = HIGH MAINTENANCE.

Bamboo floors tend to be softer than regular hardwood, so they dent and scratch easily. Even from the grit on your shoes -- so don't ever expect to wear shoes (and under no circumstances stiletto heels) on your bamboo floors. All furniture must be lifted and moved -- never slid -- across bamboo floors. As a result you'll need to put felt pads on the bottoms of all of your chairs.

Bamboo floors are not pet-friendly either. You'll have to either have your dog's or cat's claws removed altogether (not just trimmed), or get rid of the pet altogether if you don't want the surface of your floors to be "patina'd" with scratches within a month.

Bamboo is extremely porous and stains very easily. One spilled cup of coffee and it's all over. (For this reason it's absolutely insane to even consider bamboo floors for the kitchen).

And bamboo is loaded with formaldehyde, so it's not very healthy to have in your home environment.

I reluctantly (love real wood) replaced warped parquet w. engineered about 5 years ago and am very happy w. it. Apparently the parquet had been laid (by diy-ers) w.o. a moisture barrier and when it got humid in the summer, buckled/warped. So to be safe, I went w. engineered as I had learned from another project that engineered is recommended for a house basement if there is any chance of moisture due to too much rain etc. I believe that the engineered was laid directly on to the concrete - no moisture barrier needed as it does not absorb moisture from the concrete like solid wood. The bevel is no more pronounced than that of solid (prewar) wood in previous experiences, and there have been no sound, "floating" or other issues. And no warping. I was told it can be sanded 3x max. The key is probably looking, and paying (which I surely did), for good quality - you're probably not getting the highest grade in some new construction.

Gabolly (or other posters), we're going with engineered floors in our renovation, but we have a few questions:

Which company would you recommend for buying the floor?

What type of wood stands up best over time, e.g. to dogs?

Can one or more planks be replaced if there's damage?

Thanks.

I used Pianeto Legno -- http://www.plfloors.com/ -- . They are on Second Ave. between 57 & 58, north side. They do not install, this is just their showroom. Beautiful product. They can probably put you in touch w. installers - I'm not offering mine because they were very expensive and I'm quite sure you can get it done for less. Let me know tho if you want that info. Also, I used wenge. It's very dark, so am thinking it wouldn't be the best for dogs. They can probably advise you - or your installer can. Same re replacements, with which I have no experience.

Thanks, Gabally. I suspect that Pianeto Legno is out of our price range, though I'm sure there are those who would say don't do the floors at all unless you can spend top-dollar. I think you're right about the dark color being a poor choice for a home with dogs. Today we did the key test on about 50 wood samples and were able to narrow the choices to two medium-hued hand-scraped oaks. Any thoughts?

My only thought is to make sure they work w. the period of your apartment or reno. E.g. P.L. had some beautiful wide plank, steel brushed material. Loved it - for a loft, but not a mid-century. I only mention this because you say "hand scraped" and I don't really know what that means re appearance, if anything. Do think medium hued a good choice with pets, and oak nice and hard (vs. birch, bamboo e.g.) Good luck.

Good advice. We've been advised that "hand-scraped" which already has variations in the wood will hide scratches better. Thanks for your feedback.

NYCMatt (and others) - I'm curious to know more about Bamboo floors. Specifically, I've been told that, as you said, standard bamboo floors are quite soft and susceptible to scratches and dents. But, a wood-floor specialist on the UWS (who deals in all types of wood, not just bamboo) told me that "Stranded" or "Woven" bamboo is extremely durable and hard, and is even strong enough to be used in commercial situations, and certainly for residential purposes.

Does anyone here know anything about the stranded/woven variety of bamboo flooring? Pros and cons?

Thanks

Can anybody let me know how long engineered wood needs to sit in the apartment in order to adjust to the environment / humidity before it's installed? One of our neighbors just had full hardwood floors installed, but it's a disaster because either / both the planks weren't allowed to sit long enough before installation or not enough space was left by the baseboards to accommodate expansion. With a mountainous rise in her dining area, she's considering suing the contractor. Would the same problem exist for engineered floors? Thanks.

I believe manufacturers of better grade engineered wood floors recommend opening the boxes so the wood can acclimate for a few days. Some high quality floor installers argue this isn't really necessary for engineered floors, and they may be correct. It may be the engineered wood floor manufacturers don't won't their product to "perform" or appear different from traditional wood floors that absolutely requires an acclimation period. It's more important that you hire a reliable installer who has experience with engineered floors and someone who won't make installation mistakes.

""Stranded" or "Woven" bamboo is extremely durable and hard" Yes, this is correct. But I feel it will look dated in a couple of years.

"not enough space was left by the baseboards to accommodate expansion" Most likely this is the problem. There should be almost a half inch on all edges, hidden by molding.

"medium-hued hand-scraped oaks" Yes, this is a good color choice. Remember that pickled, whitish oak we were so enamored with in the '80's? We will also look back at all this dark wood and shudder. Go for the wood "neutral" which medium brown.

Go for something with at least a 1/4 inch of wood on the top layer, because you can have it sanded some day.

See what you can find at Lumber Liquidators, they have a lot of good stuff and they have installers they can recommend. Do the key test on their samples, also whack them with a hammer, which is similar to a pair of high heels.

I don't think there is a perfect wood floor, so don't pay to much attention to it, it'll drive you crazy.

Do not use those plastic chair pads under an office chair. Dirt gets under there, and as the chair moves, it gets ground into the floor and scratches the finish.

Also, buy furniture glides before the floor is even installed, so you're not tempted to try to "just slide" furniture on the wood.

Thanks, PMS and needsadvice. Very helpful.

I recently had engineered wood flooring put in, when I was renovating my home. I had some of the same concerns I'm reading on this thread going in, but the company i worked with, PID Floors, was extremely helpful in alleviating my concerns, and helping me choose the best floor. I ended up going with a square-edged (no bevel) prefinished engineered oak floor, with a 4mm wear layer (can be sanded up to 2 times). I would recommend them to anyone, since they helped me throughout the entire process, even helping me find an installer, and giving me the recommended cleaning kit for the wood. Their website is www.pidfloors.com, and I recommend anyone give them a call that is looking for information on wood flooring, engineered or solid.

I recently had engineered wood flooring put in, when I was renovating my home. I had some of the same concerns I'm reading on this thread going in, but the company i worked with, PID Floors, was extremely helpful in alleviating my concerns, and helping me choose the best floor. I ended up going with a square-edged (no bevel) prefinished engineered oak floor, with a 4mm wear layer (can be sanded up to 2 times). I would recommend them to anyone, since they helped me throughout the entire process, even helping me find an installer, and giving me the recommended cleaning kit for the wood. Their website is www.pidfloors.com, and I recommend anyone give them a call that is looking for information on wood flooring, engineered or solid.

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