Spread between 2Br and 3BR

It's true on the UWS. Mainly because a 3br is a "forever" apt, or will take you through the school years when you have a family. Also, when you're shopping for a 3br, the school situation has been finalized and you have a longer-term view. Ever since '99 when we started looking, there has been a spread bet. 2br and 3br apts on the UWS.

i wonder if that will be affected, at the end of the very long day, by the new construction focus on larger units, at least uptown. obviously they aren't building any more prewars, but they built an awful lot of large apartments.

Possibly. Happened in the 30s and 40s. Many grand apts on the UWS were broken up into smaller units. Never say never. Didn't we just talk about a "developer" in Harlem who's converting a tonwhouse into an SRO.

Schoolyard chit-chat: anecdotally, quite a few families are planning to move out of the city when their eldest child hits 2nd, 3rd grade. Not all of them are in 3brs+ and most don't own, but we're going to see some turnover there for sure.

you get a lot of good info at the playground. i kind of miss it.

a number of families i know feel they can't afford private school any longer. i know one family who's moving their child from a ss middle school to a public high school (not our daughter's school btw), because they can't afford two kids at private school. they have a RS apartment, but are thinking about moving as well.

nyc10023 is correct that following the Depression, large apartments were often cut up. Sometimes this was done so well that it's hard to tell. Other times, because of layout or poor workmanship (floor borders that don't make sense, etc.), it's quite obvious. Prior to that, 10, 12, 15, up to 25 rooms at the extreme (The Majestic, for one) were not uncommon.

At the same time, brownstone living became a PITA (among other reasons, domestic servants became rarer after 1920s immigration reform), so those tended to turn into rooming houses and then warrens of small apartments.

The final factor was the change in social patterns, especially in the 1960s and 1970s -- suburbia, divorce, single women living alone, The Gays, etc. This led to older apartments being chopped into studios, and new construction to focus heavily on studios and one bedrooms.

Then social patterns reversed in some of those areas, and the realities of the housing market make it hard for sea changes.

The end.

AH, you've got mail.

AR & AH: agree with all points. I can't say I discourage people from moving (less competition for my kids)! We would be much more likely to move countries than to move to the burbs.

I'm sure all the free-market anti-RS/RC people will dump on me, but on the UWS, a major part of the gentrification occurred because young people moved into apts, and never left because of the cheap rent. An aging population leads to falling crime rates. Not only does this happen in privately owned housing, but also in projects. The Amterdam Houses (as I've said before) are nothing to be scared of. You are much more likely to be run over by a granny than a youte.

Walter: our first large apt came about because we combined 3 apts in a non-Frankensteinish way. The flow was good and the numbers made sense. Keep your eye out for a potential 2+1 combo or 2+studio combo where they combine well, and the combined CC/tax or maint. is in line with 3br units.

BTW, I think the relatively scarcity of 3brs applies to rentals as well.

I think rentals maybe even more. Probably one of the many reasons most families would prefer to buy.

I agree that the spread is maddening. It really ends up pricing out lots of families with more than 2 children, even if both parents are bringing home solid salaries. Add to that the fact that many 3BRs are in co-ops (meaning you need to be walking around with a minimum of $500K+ in your pocket just to cover the downpayment and closing costs) and you end up with a lot of people making several hundreds of thousands of dollars per year who cannot afford to buy an apartment their family can live in.

I can't say I'm entirely unhappy about the lack of 3brs from a selfish POV. Keeps the school pop. under control & makes our property more sought after.

On the other hand, nothing is impossible. You have to keep your eye out. Right after we purchased those apts to be combined, I saw another deal for a potential 3br combo (better location, park block, high 60s) for 700k (fall '03). In fall '01, I saw a possible 2 2-bedroom combo at Lincoln Towers for 800k (and it came with a parking spot!)

i think they call this the BED SPREAD

to be fair, the 3brs have come off their crazy highs to a more normalish high.
AH + AR, great insights. Never really gave the servant thing much thought but, was alawys interested in those apartments that had mult. servants quarters. I thought it was because life was beautiful before income tax.

If you think the spreads are bad uptown, you should see what they are like in The Village.

I agree with the general view that 3BRs are relatively more expensive from a price per square foot perspective. There seems to be a 'scarcity premium' which is a unique Manhattan issue. In most other cities the price per square foot declines the more the bedrooms you have - but not in Manhattan!

However I'm curious to see just what in mathematical terms this 'premium' is - is it 30%? i.e., (1000/sf for a 2BR and 1300/sf for a 3R?) or higher? Is there a difference in this premium when you have a 'real/original 3BR' versus when you have combined apartments or added a wall to create a new room? Any ideas welcome.

I guess the same should figure for a 4 bedroom apt. no? looking to sell ours on ues