Refusal to Lower Rents

because they think the costs for you to move (both real and constructive) will keep you in place

Ah, what to do?
Go through all the hassle of finding, negotiating, and moving to a cheaper and (net) better place, or stay put and pay the increase?

You need to negotiate better. I live in the financial district. They are offering me lower rent plus 3 months free - same deal as a new renter. The least they could do is provide you the same deal as one for newcomers - you've already built a good track record (i.e. stable tenant, pay on time, cause no problems in the bldg etc...) with them and you should be rewarded and not penalized for that. If they don't give you at least the same deal, just leave. Trust me there are many great deals in the city but you just have to negotiate hard. Try and negotiate simultaneously with 3 or more buildings so you have options. Good luck

Because most renters are suckers who'll stay for a higher amount than the market. This was the case on the way up, it's still the case on the way down. Say you go into a place that starts out 10% above market because it is convenient for you and you refuse to pay a broker fee. For 3 years, the real market moves up 5% each year, but between laziness and fast talk, you think that a 10% increase is OK. So now you are 25% over market. Then crash occurs and market drops 25%. Building insists that prices are level, no change in rent, but eventually "relents" with a 15% drop. You think you're doing well, but now you are actually at 35% over market.

Each year, you get screwed a little, so you think it's not that much worse than last year. But in aggregate, you're being screwed a lot.

But what is "market" these days?

I don't play the rental market game, but from what I can tell (of the big rental companies), there are clearly delineated philosophies at the various companies about the value of a good tenant vs. the ability to force a higher price on an existing tenant. And when you consider that these are mostly family-owned companies, and family-owned companies usually have one or two people calling the shots and the rest not interested in the fight, you can understand that they're not reacting to market so much as their own personalities, affinities for people vs. ledgers, etc.

What I'm getting at is that if you do decide to move, try to move to a building owned by a company that's willing to give existing tenants in good standing the same breaks as new tenants. Unfortunately, I can't help you there, but maybe tobytoby can post the name of his management company, as a start.

Quite frankly, the rental companies don't want the kind of people who will bust their balls for decreases every year. They want the timid, stay-put types. So in some sense it actually doesn't make sense to lower rents unless they are so out of line even the die hards are moving.

This would be a good idea if only a small # of units used this idea. Problem is there are not enough of those people to go around.

The "market" is at 3.5% to 5% of purchase price for annual rent, from what I've seen. At 3.5%, you're doing damn well. At 5%, you're way overpaying. Note the 40% spread inthe rental price...

Alan & looking, I completely agree with your assessments. You just gotta find an owner who's willing to do market always and be willing / happy to move if not.

inonada, those numbers seem very aggressive to me (and also don't account for maintenance). At 3.5%, you'd expect a $1M apt. to rent for $3k a month. Even at 5%, that same $3k/month is a $720k apt., which, in this economy, can be a pretty large 1 BR or jr. 4 in a nice, doorman building in UES or UWS. From what I've seen of the market, that doesn't seem like overpaying at all.

tobytoby which building is that in the FIDI that is offering new tenants 3 months free?

I heard from a current tenant that 20 Exchange Place is giving three months free. I didn't investigate it myself, though.

Landlords dont care about you. Landlords dont care if you move some one else will come along and take your apartment for more than you are paying.

FU pay me.

petrfitz, that's not the attitude that'll win you many good tenants. What happens when landlords start having trouble filling vacant apartments (like, you know, what's happening right now)? Tenants don't care if you won't negotiate; someone else will come along and offer you a better apartment for less than you are paying. FU, lower my rent.

all my units are filled. Even if one or two or three take a while to fill it is a blip in the long term. Most landlords have many units across several buildings therefore their risk is diversified.

Anyone who thinks they have the upper hand on their landlords are fools, and they are generally the same fools who think that renting is an investment.

anyone who says lower my rent, i say good bye its been great cashing your check for the past 5 years, I will be just as happy cashing someone elses check

the dickhead approach to doing business--some operate this way--it's always been clear you are one who is a true believer

what comes around goes around

enjoy

oh as compared to the compassionate caring way of doing business? It makes total sense to be understanding of everyones feelings and person situations. It makes sense to put other peoples f'ed up circumstances ahead of your own money making. It is a good long term strategy

UBottom what do you do for a living?

You need to get past the morons who man the phones at the management office. Go there in person. Ask for an application for one of the vacant apartments, and fill it out. You will get the same deal as a newcomer, but it will be like pulling teeth to get it.

"Most landlords have many units across several buildings therefore their risk is diversified."

I don't know how you can call having more of the same product being "diversified."

"oh as compared to the compassionate caring way of doing business? It makes total sense to be understanding of everyones feelings and person situations."

Who said it has to be "compassionate"? Negotiating rents is just good business. Saying "FU pay me" to tenants reeks of bad business. Have you ever heard of customer service?

it makes sense to understand the nature of a changing market. what worked a year and a half ago in almost every business doesn't work anymore. try selling a full size pickup at list price. try selling anything at list price.

which of these properties are going up in price? which of these properties command the same price as a year ago?

petrfitz, it's not truly diversified if you're facing the same exact issue with every one of your products: declining rents, increased vacancy. Understand?

please cite your data that says every property is decreasing in rents and vacancy. Or are you just ignorantly assuming things you know nothing about?

that's why i asked you about which of your properties are going up in price or holding their previous value. you go first.

I'm moving. In Glenwood building at LIncoln Center. I will be the fifth apt on my floor (out of 8) that will be moving out within 2 months. They are not negotiating. They raised the rent again. Even if they rolled back the rent to current payment and then gave me another 10% off, it is still much cheaper for me to move. It may not be as great a neighborhood as this one but for the same space and amenities, I will be saving mucho dollars -- even taking into account the cost of moving. It is a pain in the ass to move but in this economy, I am all about the money, honey. And hopefully, it will only be for a year. I think prices will come down by then and then I will buy.

So watch out perfitz. None of the five on my floor will move into another Glenwood building because of their hardball tactics. Maybe you don't have a brand to protect but the market can pull the rug out from under those that are not flexible to market conditions. So you are happy to cash someone's check right up until there isn't that someone else out there. Look at WSJ today, Occupancy rates are in freefall.

all my LES no frills properties are either holding or increasing. They are filled with non Wall Street creative types who want to live near the culture of the LES. They were underpriced during the run up and many renters are trading down from the lux buildings giving up amenities like gyms, door men etc that they never used and dont feel the need to pay for anymore.

"all my LES no frills properties are either holding or increasing. They are filled with non Wall Street creative types who want to live near the culture of the LES."

I thought you had properties in "different areas, different price points, different amenities, etc Different properties that appeal to varying renters of different incomes, needs, etc."?? You are contradicting yourself within the span of 10 minutes - amazing.

where did i say those were my only properties? God you are a moron

In all your time on this board (and Curbed), you've only ever mentioned the LES. Peculiar if you really owned properties elsewhere, no?

i have mentioned several times that I own other properties both in New york city and outside. You just dont read well and make alot of incorrect assumptions

there have even been complete threads that debate my other investments. Tool

Links?

you are such a tool. You have even commented numerous times on my othe properties. god it is so easy to show how much of a poser moron you are.

Predictable.

capitalism is competitive...we excel as we outsmart and out perform our fellow man..it is largely a good system, as it rewards intelligence and efficiency...as with all competitive pursuits, there is a decent way to behave as one represents his/her distinct interests..some feel that abrasive, outwardly self-interested approaches are best....you are one of them..i think there is a way to retain one's decency, while at the same time maximizing self-interest..i think the economic rewards of this approach are ultimately superior to the dickhead appraoch...and the psychic rewards are overwhelmingly superior

i have had a reasonably successful securities trading business for many years

oh and while you trade securities you were compassionate to all your clients? You were concerned of the financial and personal situations of the end users of your securities?

Oh yeah RE is just an investment for me. I make my living building software and media that teach kids how to read, how to grow their social emotional skills and how to learn kinesthetically. Hmmm who is the one earning a living maximizing self-interest? Who made their living in a dickhead field?

Read between the lines, folks. fitzy has a couple of properties in the Lower East that have appreciated as a hot neighborhood. Everything else he owns in NYC has plunged. He must have a 2% cap rate on some of those.

BJW it is predictable that you constantly talk out your ass and try to call people on things that are completely false. Are you saying that you dont remember ever commenting on my Las Vegas investment?

Huh? moron

petrfitz, I never recall you saying you were renting out your home in Las Vegas. You know, the one where you're Celine Dion's neighbor.

Ubottom, amen. Some people never realize that things don't have to be black and white.

again BJW you are a fool. I have gone on the record several times stating that I rent that property out for numerous reasons i.e. trade shows, vacations etc.

Also you are proven wrong again previously you said that I never mentioned other properties, now you are back peddling and stating that I did mention other properties but never said i rented them. Which again is a lie.

I have also posted about other properties I own - Jersey shore, Brooklyn brownstone etc.

Do you ever talk about things you know about or are not complete lies?

"I make my living building software and media that teach kids how to read, how to grow their social emotional skills and how to learn kinesthetically. Hmmm who is the one earning a living maximizing self-interest? Who made their living in a dickhead field?"

How is telling people "FU pay me" not being in a "d!ckhead field"? And I think kids were learning to read and growing their "social emotional skills" long before you came along. Not to mention that securities trading is part of a financial system that has allowed you to buy property in the first place. You're playing a silly game, pterozitz, and it's no surprise that you're not very good at it.

No petr, we were talking about rentals. You've never mentioned any of these properties as rentals as far as I know. When did you buy your Brooklyn brownstone?

back peddle back peddle throw out another lie dig your hole deeper. speaking of a dickhead field why dont you go back to your predatory bankrupting people when they are most down and out health care insurance job?

apt23 wrote (6 days ago)
>> "I'm moving. In Glenwood building at LIncoln Center. ... I will be the fifth apt on my floor (out of 8) that will be moving out within 2 months. They are not negotiating. They raised the rent again. ...
So watch out perfitz. None of the five on my floor will move into another Glenwood building because of their hardball tactics." <<

I have to echo what apt23 said above about brand. I plan on renting in Manhattan for the foreseeable future, and I'm in a large mgt co's bldg that negotiated pretty tough when I got in a year ago, but has been generous in the rent cut this year. I may well consider staying just for the convenience, although I could get something comparable very close by for another 10% less, or even a bigger discount.

But I have to tell you: just from reading postings on the Rental threads on Streeteasy for the past month or two, I will NEVER rent from Glenwood, solely because of the tactics I've heard described on the threads. They have effectively ruined their brand for me. There are other big mgt cos, some better, some worse, from what I've heard, but I can't fathom ever risking doing business with Glenwood, given their business model.

I mean, in 2006, everybody I knew got a huge rent increase if they stayed put. I didn't like it, but I could face it that the landlords had the market power to be able to do it. I chose to move at considerable inconvenience (work was insanely busy, so I had to rush the whole move) to save a few bucks. To get involved up front with a landlord that wouldn't give me back that surplus when the entire market is down, is just something I absolutely won't do.

The reputation piece is that I'd be ticked off if I unwittingly walked into such a situation, but when a company like Glenwood essentially broadcasts that it'll ignore market prices, I won't go near it. Due to the internet and site like Apartmentratings.com, the days when a landlord could be shadowy about their practices are over.

As a follow-up to my post above, here's an example of a prior discussion:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/14156-anyone-having-luck-negotiating-with-glenwood

lol @ "Any insiders (e.g., brokers)". Like Brokers really know what different MC's are doing. Why not just ask people who work for management companies, opr owners themselves. We are on here, even though the site is more heavily geared towards condo/co-op owners.

and 'petrfitz', way to further people's stereotype about landlords. You are really an asshole. I hope the readers of SE are smart enough to know that not all LL's operate your way. There are plenty of honest companies out there who have spent years, if not generations, trying to break said stereotype. There IS a way to have a balance, to bad new money amateurs like you come in a dime a dozen and your loud mouth makes more of an impression than quiet honest companies make in decades.....

You are all crying that Landlords are refusing to lower rates, and the same bunch of you will be astonished that when the economy turns that landlords will start raising rents.

Why should a landlord be nice to you renters during up times, if you renters are parasitic demanding lower and lower rents during down times?

FU pay me.

@petrfitz, I don't think tenants will be astonished when the economy turns and the landlords start raising rents. They sort of grudgingly accept it or move elsewhere.

As for your next point/paragraph can I flip your premise for you and say: Why should a tenant be loyal to you landlords during downtimes, if you landlords are parastic demanding higher and higher rents during up times.

FU, no pay for you!

"Why should a tenant be loyal to you landlords during downtimes, if you landlords are parastic demanding higher and higher rents during up times.

FU, no pay for you!"

So move.

FU, eviction notice for you!

FU, no pay for you!"

So move.

FU, eviction notice for you!

I'll move out during the night during month 5 of the eviction process for your "uninhabitable place"

FU! Catch me if ya can!

"FU, eviction notice for you!"

Anyone typing these words without tongue firmly in cheek is obviously not aware of what the eviction process is like, especially in this city. It is an incredibly long and painful process for landlords, especially smaller ones, and as such is only truly worth it under exceptional circumstances. A landlady I once had (who, as I discovered, was a bit off her rocker, and later, thanks to a bit of internet research on the dept of corrections website, had done 3 years of jail time for trying to off her son-in-law) threatened eviction in a fit once, but predictably did nothing. Aside from the fact that it's just good business to treat your customers well, there are considerable legal and financial risks to being a nasty, implacable landlord. I'd think real landlords would know this.

This struck me as well. Why would you mess with someone who has so much of your assets at their disposal?

While you might be able to charge them with a crime, or to sue them for anything beyond the security deposit, you also might not. Are you covered by insurance as a landlord? As a long time business owner aren't you going to have to pay at some point if you have poor relations and this leads to multiple incidents of such "accidents"?

A friend tried to evict tenants from a late construction, high-service, doorman building. Took him months, including trips to court, and when he finally regained control the place was a wreck. And he did not start out as an assh-t either.

i have been a free market apartment for the past 2 1/2 years now after being in a RS apartment for the prior 12 years.

i found that if you work with your landlord, they are flexible on making the price work for both parties. They were pretty reasonable when we signed the first lease (taking 8% off their ask) and could have raised rents much more than the 2.5% they did in 2008. however, this year, i was more flexible but still got 15% off my rent. i probably could have pushed for 17-20% given the market but for 200 bucks a month it was not worth destroying a budding relationship with the landlord.

renters don't want to move and landlords like tennants that pay rent and stay in buildings. it's a perfect situation for both parties to be happy.

hey BJW - are you talking about Helen Ritz up on the upper west side? she was my crazy landlord for 4 years but she treated me well. she would always stop by though and want to chat.

i paid below RS price for my studio though.

bjw2103
about 23 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse

"FU, eviction notice for you!"

Anyone typing these words without tongue firmly in cheek is obviously not aware of what the eviction process is like, especially in this city. It is an incredibly long and painful process for landlords, especially smaller ones, and as such is only truly worth it under exceptional circumstances. A landlady I once had (who, as I discovered, was a bit off her rocker, and later, thanks to a bit of internet research on the dept of corrections website, had done 3 years of jail time for trying to off her son-in-law) threatened eviction in a fit once, but predictably did nothing. Aside from the fact that it's just good business to treat your customers well, there are considerable legal and financial risks to being a nasty, implacable landlord. I'd think real landlords would know this.

> threatened eviction in a fit once

bjw got into another fight on RE.

lol

not at all surprised...

batraa, as I am sure you know, and you can also see in this thread, not all landlords are reasonable.

At the same time, not all tenants are reasonable.

a negotiation works far better between 2 reasonable parties than it does with one, or even worse, zero.

All you can do in this world is be reasonable, and hope that people are reasonable with you. If not, there is no easy solution, but experience will hopefully guide you...

Good luck!

EZ Renter - ever hear about a thing called a "Credit Rating?"

Landlords never report good about renters but we sure as hell report when you skip out.

Good luck ever getting a loan or apartment ever again.

MAV said: "a negotiation works far better between 2 reasonable parties than it does with one, or even worse, zero."

A simple truth.

There are the people out there who have the "screw everybody" attitude and are forever looking over their shoulder waiting for someone to do it to them. I find it a lot easier to do business with people who don't have that attitude. You can miss out on a lot of opportunities by playing that "take or be taken" game.

"bjw got into another fight on RE.
lol
not at all surprised..."

I know you're busy following me and making useless comments on every thread, but maybe you missed the part where she's senile and tried to have her son-in-law murdered and consequently spent 3 years in the slammer. Perfectly sane person that.

batraa, I'd avoid posting specific names on here, but I have to ask, were you aware of her past whenever she stopped by to chat? My roommate was terrified and locked every door whenever possible. She was very nice at first, but I know she had a falling out with the broker I used, and it all went downhill from there. Her son runs the business now and he's a good guy at least.

Does anyone know if places like Brodsky's listed rents on their website are final. Do they take offers, especially if a unit is just sitting unrented? I am interested in some of their studio rentals but the prices listed are ($200) above my budget. I am wondering if I should even bother.

Nothing is set in stone anywhere, especially now.

It would be good to know what % $200 is to know how realistic it is, but if you are asking for a lower rent you will have a lot more success if you can show that you are a good applicant.

I tell people 'the better your application, the more room you have to negotiate'

Good luck!

bluedahlia: I think it's worth trying, I have in the past talked with Brodsky onsite managers and had them express flexibility, especially renting now heading into the off-season. My sense, though, is that big landlords like them prefer giving you a month free vs lowering the asking rent. But, again, worth a try.

Bluedahlia, I sec0nd Anotherguy, The Brodsky Organization is a good outfit. Thiey are likely to be reasonable.

MAV - my 3 landlords (including the supposedly crazy one) have been good to me over the past 15 years. The last one screwed me out of my security deposit but we agreed to 50% which he gave back to me. my mistake was to pay the last months rent. in his defense, he said he had to air out the apartment from the smoke and paint it. but, it was still a good 8 year relationship and my rent was stabilized and cheap. he was not harrassing when i forgot to pay the rent when i was so busy at work and he always got his money and an appology.

landlords don't want problems in general but i did pass on a building when i heard the landlord was very proactive in marking to market the rents every year.

my rent renews this march and it will be an interesting discussion but i think we will be able to work something out.

bjw - i was not aware of the situation till after i left. i assume she is dead now because she was pretty old at the time. if not, god bless her.

i don't know why she liked me but we hit it off fine. i thought she was an old lady and deserved to be treated with respect (like my grandmother). i made her tea and helped carry things for her when she needed the help.

if i had known the stories about her i probably would have not interacted with her as much. but we all thought it was so nice that my landlord was very friendly.

Jakobson Properties NYC is one of them, no price break for loyal old tenant. they only watch their own pocket. When you come across this company I recommend avoid renting from them.

batraa, google her name - there's a New York Mag article about her from 1994. Nuts. You're one of the lucky ones - she is actually very nice until the slightest issue comes up. Then, you've awakened Hyde for good. I don't know if she's still kicking, but she was as of 2007. I agree with respecting "little old ladies," but once they start behaving in certain ways and using inappropriate names, you just have to respectfully tell them that ain't gonna fly.

bjw - yah, i read that article years after i left. amazing. i was an analyst at a IB and working a ton of hours so i really didn't have a chance to be bad in the apartment. but others in the building didn't like her from what i could tell.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VOMCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=Helen+Ritz+nymag&source=bl&ots=DL7ehFkIOl&sig=ZXhuUPxkHvw6zOrKEgr0K1w9I2E&hl=en&ei=Oi_ZSva7NsPY8AbS1MS3BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Landlord is in business. If they have a strategy not to lower rents, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Either way doesn't make them good or bad. Perhaps you could only view them as good if during the market increases they didn't try to increase them. But otherwise, they are acting in their own interests.

Just as you are by making some determination to move or not move based on your own self interest.

Why are people being moralistic?

^Because often times renters forget the reality that they are living in someone's investment property. These are the same people who think all landlords are evil.

just left my glenwood building -- it is well run -- but it is a shame that people have to move to get a competitive market rate. Currently there are 15 empty apartments and they won't budge... nice to have purchased your building in the 60s... it is all cashflow for Mr. Litwin...

B&L is the same way, MFox. My new landlord Rose offered market-rate reductions to their tenants in line with what they were offering new tenants. They had one free month rent but let me prorate it over a year AND sign a 2-year lease. See my other thread.

A friend of mine is in a glenwood building - seems very nicely run. But to me, if you have a tenant that you know pays on time, it's a far better risk than an unknown who might look good on paper, but you don't know about that goddamned dog they didn't tell you about!

@petrfitz

Blah blah retard, you can't do anything with anyone's credit report.