Yet ANOTHER Board Rejection

The only cause of action you would have is for racial discrimination, which you'd have to prove. If it's "price protection," which is ILLEGAL, the seller has the cause of action.

You should ask for the name, address and social security number of everyone who saw your Board package. Just explain to them that this is necessary in case of an identity fraud issue ever arising, they will be first on the list of names to hand the police.

Flmao. Consider yourself lucky!!!! All you lost is 3 months and $5k. Peanuts vs. Leveraged losses of $100ks. Lmao. I guess the board has a unicorn in the race too. Hahahhaahhahhahahahahhaaha

And no I'm not gay ( nothing wrong with gays). , my daughter is just into unicorns at the moment.

"very tempted to share the address, appraisal and contract price... gotta clear that w my attorney first"

This sucks tbontb, it’s unfortunate that this stuff happens but I don't think you can do much about it. Trashing the building on streeteasy is fun and may make you feel better for a little while but ultimately you are just hurting the seller more. It seems that the seller is already in a bind so weigh how much more difficult you want to make it on them. If it were me, I wouldn't post the address.

stevejhx - thanks for the info. I was just wondering why the board wouldn't ask us to renegotiate the price, if that's the problem. The fact that it's illegal would explain it.

JuiceMan - thanks for the advice. I would let myself cool down a bit.

maybe not the address....but some fun info...round the numbers so we can't pin it down.....neighborhood..last ask..contract price...beds..baths..rough price per sq..

Great point, JuiceMan - and patient09, you know how clever the SE people are (clairvoyant?) so unless they do want to hurt the hapless seller more, I'd suggest stating no identifying information.

Oh, the pain of rejection. Had the place decorated in your mind 100 times over correct? It just sucks. Been there done that. Forget the discrimination, your spinning your wheels. They can reject you b/c your too good looking and there is a board member's husband that got caught with a little number that looked remotly like you. This is the suckiness of coops. It's also the reason that some of the best deals out there are in the most restricted buildings. All that being said, Today you are Sisyphus and that hugh boulder just rolled right back down to the bottom. Today is a beautiful day for alcohol and ranting and raveing. On Tuesday you will have to assume the position.......behind the rock and push.
Today.......shake your fists at the Gods.

What's a "price protection move?" Is that when a board thinks the apartment's selling price is too low? I really don't get why and how a board can have this much power? Why should they have anything to say on my apartment? This is why I am ONLY looking at condos (although they have boards too).

Condo "boards" have ZERO power in who sells to whom, and for how much.

Having had to just pull together a board package myself and having just heard that the management company considered our financials "golden", I can imagine just how frustrating this must be. In addition to the financial expenses already disbursed, this whole thing also takes a heck of a lot of time and effort and to be rejected without any explanation is really a piss off.

You can thank our overly-litigious society and hyper-regulated market for that.

If a condo feels a price is too low, it has the right to buy the unit itself at that price and then rent it out until a better time to sell comes around. There'd really be no point, though, as the sale at the "too-low" price would still be recorded.

It could also exercise that right of first refusal if it just didn't like the buyer.

In either case, though, most condos would have difficulty in coming up with the purchase price.

lets face it; an explanation (lawyers or not) would just lead to a protracted argument. the problem is the rejection.

I agree that a board doesn't have to provide an explanation for the rejection and that an explanation can only result in a protracted argument -- I'm just sympathizing with tbontb's frustration at the rejection without even an interview when all signs from the management company and, likely, the brokers had been positive.

can i ask what % under asking price was your accepted offer and was the price that low where a board would be afraid for their own apt prices?

tbontb, I'm so sorry. What a drag for you.

Can you find out from the brokers what the board's secret number is and whether you're close? If you've come this far, this really should be the kind of case where the brokers throw in a little -- maybe help to cover your closing costs -- so you can bring your number up, and then there's a deal and everybody's happy. Also, seller can perhaps throw in towards your maintenance costs to get to the "right" price.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Ali, we have no idea why the board rejected OP. OP is *assuming* it's price protection, but it could just as easily be another matter entirely. In which case whether or nor there's a "secret number" is irrelevant to this applicant.

And by the way, board members don't talk "out of school" to brokers about applicants, so if there IS a "secret number", no broker will ever find it out.

A good lawyer told me this once after being rejected.

"With evidence or no evidence, applicable law or not, you can always make a fuss through the court. It really comes down to is, 'what is your end goal?' Revenge? Short term or long term? Anything is possible. It just depends on how deep your and their pockets are."

And how much time and energy you're willing to waste.

please explain why disclosure of details on this board would hurt a seller. certainly, if disclosed, no one else would bid more than that price. but that is a price the seller is willing to take. if it generated say, two or three more bids at that exact price point, the board would have to get a clue and realize that that is now the market price. if the board rejected two or three other qualified buyers at the same price, then the seller would begin to have a case of price protection and therefore, force the board to accept a buyer. I think it is win for the buyer. what am i missing. and a win for se readers. we all need to know true value.

so, disclosure of details would be good just because transparency is good but also it might generate more interest for the seller and a dose of reality for the damn board. Plus everyone should realize this is what happens in the age of the internet. transparency rules. the board better step up to reality.

tbontb, next time (next apartment) have someone who knows about board interviews, and ideally the particular board you'll be meeting with, coach you in all the dos and don'ts of discussion, dress, etc. before you go to the interview.

alan: read op. she didn't even get the interview. so it was either her financials, some name in the package or perhaps, price protection.

"From the management feedback, my finances and package are solid. (in fact, they used the word "great".)"

tbontb - First of all, sorry about the rejection. Second, you may be jumpong the gun with the whole "price protection" scenario. The management company doesn;t decide on board packages and I am sure they are positive to most potential buyers. There could be a number of other reasons that you were rejected that have nothing to do with "price protection".

apt23, and tbontb, my bad!

Jacque guy never needs to apologize on se

That is why the board needs to tell her why her application was rejected. If there is no objective reason, then it would be some type of discrimination wouldn't it?

The board is under no obligation to explain a rejection. The same way that companies are not required to explain why they pass on people they interview.

Just because they aren't saying why the OP was rejected does not mean that there is ANY discrimination whatsoever. To draw that conclusion would be incorrect.

Just to give a flavor of the price without aggravating seller's situation.
It's a 1br in the mid 70's, west of 2nd.
After a few makrdowns, last ask was at $580 psf (using listed sqf, appriased 30sqf less)
in contract 8% down from ask.

sounds like a good deal............was the mtce high?

sounds like a good deal............was the mtce high?

sounds like a good deal............was the mtce high?

tbontb, out of curiosity, was this a pre war building?

Apparently the board did not want w67's prediction of $500 psf to come true this fall. I believe they want to bypass $500 psf straight to $400 psf and say 'nah na na na nahhhhhh' to w67th. Shrimpie r u on the board?

One of the big flaws in the "price protection" scheme by boards of keeping prices up:

if there is a sale, it becomes history. The faster it becomes history, the faster it moves into the past and after 6 months becomes fairly unusable as a comparable sale. but if you reject, what happens? The unit goes back on the market at the same price (because that's what the Seller KNOWS it is what the market will bear). Now, the "whole world" knows what units are (or aren't) worth in the building, because you have this unit out there at this "too low" price and it's sitting around forever not selling. This is much more damaging to values in the building than having a sale go thru and become history.

On another note, as far as:
"If a condo feels a price is too low, it has the right to buy the unit itself at that price and then rent it out until a better time to sell comes around. There'd really be no point, though, as the sale at the "too-low" price would still be recorded.

It could also exercise that right of first refusal if it just didn't like the buyer.

In either case, though, most condos would have difficulty in coming up with the purchase price."

It is fairly typical for Condos to flip the sale contract on units where they exorcise their right of first refusal, so the lower sale is neither recorded nor does the Condo have to come up with the $.

w67th, funsuckers.

30yrs, interesting point on the condo rofr process. makes the clause far more meaningful, assuming, of course, that the condo can indeed sell.

30yrs... I sit on a condo board, I used to get monthly "right of first refusal" requests all the time.. another board member would be like scratching their head about "a low price" (usually a foreign owner who could care less and just wanted out). Rare but it happened enough in the bull run that they'd pass off the $50k or $25K savings to a friend/family etc....THERE WERE ALWAYS TAKERS for the assignment.

I have yet to see one exercised in the last year... there are no takers even if the discount to mkt was 15%... cause they are no more takers....

I have to look again, but I believe there is a clause on not taking on debt on the condo (except a super's unit - but secured by just that unit).... just think about it.. if a board took on a debt so great on the Common areas such that it went belly-up, every unit owner would in effect be subordinate to the first lien on the Common areas.

The $50K to $25K was for units that traded anywhere from $100K studios all the way to $1.5MM 2 bdrms (from 1997-now). So let's just say I sat at these meetings where the president would have this massive spreadsheet of psf... GOD i should've kept a copy. I can do a whole term paper on the price differentials between rents, studio to 3 bdrms, buy vs. sale.... and this bldgs traded a ton of units in the go go bubble....

$580 per sqf less 8% = $534 psf...nice...now somebody do the math for me....multiply ($1000-$534) times the number of square feet of coop apartment space on the upper east side....no wonder sales at Bergdorf's are down this quarter....

speaking of bergdorf's, and sorry because this is a bit OT, but how can the retail sales numbers be climbing, even just month over month, when just about every largely populated state has had hugely declining sales tax revenues? in the 8-12% range. despite cash for clunkers.

ok, a lot OT. sorry.

I think "clunkers" has something to do with Sept retail....and apology accepted

it's been awhile but does retail sales include necessities that are not sales taxed? Baby formula, basic food stuffs etc? shooting from my gyrating hips at the moment...

"I have to look again, but I believe there is a clause on not taking on debt on the condo (except a super's unit - but secured by just that unit)"

I believe they changed that a number of years ago (?10?).

w67th, yes i think so. but the basics have seen a decline as well. restaurant revenues have started to flatten out, so it's not an increase in buying necessities. and we are seeing massive deflation in basic goods in many parts of the country. if it is included, prices are tanking.

and mjsalisb, car sales generate significant sales tax revenue. and still sales tax revenue has fallen, often hugely. sometimes it's reported quarterly, sometimes monthly, so it can be a bit hard to discern, but i'm pretty sure the retail sales figures are NOT reflected in the state sales tax numbers.

btw, since i've already rudely entered the OT info, the BLS reports that rents and the OER have somehow miraculously increased the last few quarters. WTF????? inonada, are you out there? this is your baby, but how the fuck could they possibly have come up with these numbers with a straight face right NOW. if you include housing, we are in one hell of a deflationary spiral that the gov't doesn't want to admit. shit, i'm scaring myself.

17% unemployment if we're being honest? and even washington acknowledges that its going to get worse before it gets better?

"speaking of bergdorf's, and sorry because this is a bit OT, but how can the retail sales numbers be climbing, even just month over month, when just about every largely populated state has had hugely declining sales tax revenues? in the 8-12% range. despite cash for clunkers."

Where are you seeing these numbers?

try typing sales tax revenue into google.

mish. and we don't even want to discuss california, which is about another $1 billion in the hole 10 weeks after they "balanced" their budget.

you all do realize that california would be the eighth largest gdp in the world if it were a stand-alone country?

I have news for all of you. My service type business is in the 'need' arena on the ground floor of this city and I've been doing this for a long time. Business in the town is slow. Really slow. I know all the guys out there that do what I do and lately we all have the time to call each other and ask,"how'se it going?" and, as usual we all have the identical experiences. Numbers are off and business owners are eyeballing their employees for diminished hours. When it gets like this you have got to ask yourself what the heck am I doing wrong. Plus the year has created a malaise in our businesses. Both myself and my employees feel it and we talk about it at our weekly round up. We have tried a few things to break the cycle with little luck. I work in the best part of town with wealthy clients who know me for years and the flow is just not there. I could hardly bring myself to face sept. numbers. It's not a blood bath just a significant beating. I have no idea how these retail numbers are going up. I see little evidence that there is a great improvement underway. I hope there is but, no direct eveidence. There is little empirical evidence that the equities market will tank or fly away anytime soon either. It feels like a nervous holding pattern where folks buy the basics and hold tight. This is murder for the small business man.

I would hate to be the canary in the coal mine.

falco, thanks for sharing. it is a war out there for businesses, and believe me when i say it's for small and medium and even sort of large businesses. but not, or course, for huge financial institutions. happy that we gave them SO much money so they could do nothing productive with in.

Retail numbers are not going up.

aboutready - also interesting is California is 1/8th of our population - 1 in 8 live in CA. Pretty crazy. 37 million of our 300 million.

falco.. try the big boobed or well hung receptionist.... gotta be worth 2% bump....

The U.S. has to come to terms with the human tide that is rest of the 2 continents. Not dealing with the geo-politics very well. Mexicans & other Latin Americans will continue to come across the border as long as our std of living is a smidge higher, causing integration problems. We need to legalize drugs ASAP and control that flow of $.

Tried that once and found myself spending too much time in the bathroom trying to choke a unicorn.

Mine was mostly purple.

Thread drift?

so far off course I think we just discovered America..............fogetaboutit!

To all my Italian brothers out there (I'm only Italian if you are what you eat) enjoy your day!!!

This thread is finished. we all know the story. hard working new yorker screwed by an unfair unresponsive uncaring system. Life is not fair...boohoo. Sometimes your on top other times your grabing your ankels bitting a pillow (metaphoric). welcome to the food chain. The only bright spot is that you have a place to bitch.

hahahhahahaaa.... remind me to tell you about my son, big boobs, nannies, bathing suits and my wife when we get together for a beer one of these days....

w67 got an e-mail for me to shoot you a private note?

w67thstreet@gmail.com

"The board is under no obligation to explain a rejection. The same way that companies are not required to explain why they pass on people they interview.

Just because they aren't saying why the OP was rejected does not mean that there is ANY discrimination whatsoever. To draw that conclusion would be incorrect."

Thank you, Waverly.

As a matter of course, most boards don't explain rejections to ANY applicants, because doing so for one would set a dangerous precedent for all the others, and possibly open the board to litigation.

Well, it seems with savings a big goose egg, the only way a person can manufacture a meager bit of wealth these days is cutting back the expenses (or being lucky enough to be too big to fail). If my assets could generate any kind of meaningful (ahem nonzero, err non-0.25%) returns, then maybe I'd have a few bucks to consume some of your products Falco, and take a few more cab rides, and see a few more movies, and hit the local restaruants, maybe even some discretionary vacation.

Until that happens, back to aggressive defensive mode so I don't have to work until the day I die.

Personally, I don't know how this recession can not possibly permanently crimp consumer behaviour for the next 5-10 years. Don't get me wrong - a healthy moderation of debt is probably good for the soul (even if it does postpone some of our aggregate consumption to a future point in time when we can afford it) - but our economy apparently was not built on a model which encourages savings.

....Or am I just the nut? very sleepy so this may be the case......

Lecker - look at the Japanese model.

I remember last holiday season warning against buying gift cards as gifts because the retailers might not be there in January. It appears that this season will be more interesting still. Ouch.

I'm turning Japanese, I'm turning Japanese, ....I really think so!

Retail sales ex transpo were purportedly up m/o/m but not y/o/y. How I'm not f'ng sure.

at some point (like now) the stats become so disconnected from people's (subjective) collective reality, that they become marginalized.

"Retail sales ex transpo were purportedly up m/o/m but not y/o/y. How I'm not f'ng sure."

AR, retailers have significantly cut inventory and are sacrificing top line to drive margin. Last year retailers blew out truckloads of inventory at steep discounts once they realized that the consumer disappeared (remember the 70% off everything that Saks announced before the holidays last year? It set the tone for the entire industry). Steep discounting of large amounts of inventory drove top line whereas this year, retailers have been ultra conservative in their buys. Check out some stores when you get a chance, narrow and sparse assortments, particularly in fashion. Even if retailers sell everything they have, there isn’t enough inventory to drive the top line to last years levels (which explains the y-o-y drop). As for m-o-m, retailers are chasing inventory to drive monthly performance. When product is selling there are replenishing assortments quickly and driving full price selling. All of this (and much SG&A reduction) has been great for generating EBITDA and resulted significant improvements in retail stocks. Retail stocks will continue to perform until investors start clamoring for top line growth again or consumers get frustrated with bland, narrow assortments. For once, the market is actually rewarding profitability, which IMO is a welcome change.

JM, i understand the inventory issues. i'm talking total dollar volume of sales, when tax receipts are so low. but there may have been a tax free week in many states in September, i didn't think that they coincided with back to school sales but i may be wrong. also, i'll admit that schools starting so late this year may have contributed to september's sales results. good luck to the retailers attempting full price sales over the holidays. although i have read that the toy producers have skewed offerings toward lower-priced goods rather dramatically.

i'm not terribly interested in stock performance these days, although i understand why others might be. stubbornly i continue to focus on what is actually happening to the people in our fair country. has anyone else noticed prices of packaged items (not fresh, sadly) declining at the grocery stores?

btw, i do pop into the stores now and again. throughout the summer tjmaxx was like a war victim. literally nothing on the shelfs. now, major restocking.

walmart is still oddly empty, but target not so much. staples was woefully understocked for back-to-school, haven't returned to see if any improvement has occurred.

30yrs, questions/comments:

You said:

"but if you reject, what happens? The unit goes back on the market at the same price (because that's what the Seller KNOWS it is what the market will bear). Now, the "whole world" knows what units are (or aren't) worth in the building, because you have this unit out there at this "too low" price and it's sitting around forever not selling. This is much more damaging to values in the building than having a sale go thru and become history."

If the board rejects, how does the whole world know what the price is - assumably Seller will not put it back on the market for the rejected price, as the board would just reject it again, no?

You also said:

"It is fairly typical for Condos to flip the sale contract on units where they exorcise their right of first refusal, so the lower sale is neither recorded nor does the Condo have to come up with the $."

I am unfamiliar with the flip, but assume the board would flip the sale to another purchaser, assumably at a higher price? I would think that Seller wouldn't want to delay closing long at all, so the Board would have to find a new buyer in a very short time period. If this purchaser for the exact same apartment exists, why wouldn't they currently bid on the apartment? I just don't think the higher bidder exists, no?

"If the board rejects, how does the whole world know what the price is - assumably Seller will not put it back on the market for the rejected price, as the board would just reject it again, no?"

They will know what the LISTING price is, which odds are isn't going to be all that different. And everyone know what the listing price was at the point that it sold. That's what is important: you know it DIDN'T go for more than $X, so it sets a ceiling on what the value could be. If a unit has been on the market and they take a low number, it's because the seller has realized that's what the place can fetch. They COULD put it back on at a higher number, but a couple of things happen: a) everyone STILL knows what the last asking price was before it went into contract last time, b) it will just sit around and not sell because the asking price is too high.

"I am unfamiliar with the flip, but assume the board would flip the sale to another purchaser, assumably at a higher price? I would think that Seller wouldn't want to delay closing long at all, so the Board would have to find a new buyer in a very short time period. If this purchaser for the exact same apartment exists, why wouldn't they currently bid on the apartment? I just don't think the higher bidder exists, no?"

see w67thstreet post.