Brooklyn vs. Manhattan

- You may get more for your money
- Some of those hoods not too far from manhattan --wmburg and greenpoint have sections way quieter (due to less density) than almost anything in Manhattan (except a very few parts of w village); i find b heights noisy in general because of the highway and bridge

I've lived in Brooklyn all my life. Started in Sheepshead, moved to Carroll Gardens then Kensington and now back to Sheephead. The diversity that you get on every block of "deeper" Brooklyn is fantastic. I have Russian, Turkish, Malaysian, Chinese and South American living in the 4 family where I am now. Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope and Carroll Gardens is now only yuppies with few old school italians left.

You're close to the beach, not too far from Manhattan and have enough restaurants, bars, movie theatres, museums and shopping options to never "need" to go into Manhattan.

I find that most people who "need" to live in Manhattan are transplants who think that NYC is the small island. They'll live on 205 St, work on Wall Street and not realize that they can be saving money and time by living just on the other side of the bridge. I would rather live in Queens than Manhattan with kids. For the single people, at least for a year or 2, it would be great to live in Manhattan, but that's about it.

Ok, I 'll start. I lived in Manhattan from 1970 until recently - anything else was inconceivable. Never wanted to live anywhere else.

When we first started looking for another place to live in 2006, we looked at houses near BAM and in Harlem. I told my husband I wouldn't go more than 2 stops into Brooklyn. Turned out we hated brownstones - that long dark middle and lugubrious Victorian detail.

So we went the other way, looking for light and open space. Turned out that most lofts also have a long dark middle. Hubby works with independent filmmakers and such - we visited one who lives in the Gretch building. WE walked around Wburg and found the proportion of sky to building very cheering. To our surprise, found the blank boxes of new construction kind of appealing. The nabe reminded us of the Village of our youth - he lived on 10th between 2nd and 3rd, I lived on Grove St.

And since we no longer work in midtown - I freelance from home and he has clients mostly from Flatiron down, it's actually QUICKER to get where we go than from the UWS. (Actually we looked at a beautiful old corner loft near Union Square and he said, with horror, "I can see into one of my client's windows from here!" that nixed it.)

Several years ago I did a marketing survey for the Brooklyn Historical Society, and interviewed people in Bklyn Heights, Park Slope, Bed Stuy, Bay Ridge, and Sunset Park. It turned out they loved their neighborhoods - interestingly, none of them had any feeling for "Brooklyn" as a whole, and in fact, many had never seen any other neighborhoods, either staying put, or going in the subway to work and returning without exploring anywhere else. The only people we found who had strong feelings about "Brooklyn" as a whole were people who had moved away, the ex-pats, as it were.

Lofty - I was going to ask. Now that you are in Wmburg, and given how accustomed you were to Manhattan, do you find Bedford st etc. in Wmburg a bit too small to while away much time...there just aren't that many stores etc it strikes me. I think I'd end up exploring further east when　Ｉ　ｗａｎｔｅｄ　ｔｏ　ｋｉｌｌ　ｔｉｍｅ．

"And since we no longer work in midtown - I freelance from home and he has clients mostly from Flatiron down, it's actually QUICKER to get where we go than from the UWS."

Lofty, I made the same move, but you'd be surprised by how many people outright refuse to believe this. It's a nice thing. Glad you're enjoying the neighborhood so far. Random aside - what does your hubby do exactly? My younger brother is a fledgling filmmaker in the neighborhood and would be great to get him in the loop as much as possible. Let me know if you can!

I know you're all dying to hear from me, so here it goes.

When I first moved to New York City, I lived in a crappy apartment in Williamsburg (mid-'90s). The neighborhood itself was crappy (still is), incredibly inconveniently located (the only train to Manhattan was the L, and the year I lived there the L was voted the worst subway line in the city -- half the time it simply wasn't operating, particularly at night when you really needed it). But I didn't care -- I was on my Big New York Adventure!

A year later I wised up and moved to Brooklyn Heights, in a lovely 2-bedroom floor-thru on the second floor of a Federal townhouse, where I lived for 10 years. (It was a fabulous apartment loaded with charm, including a working fireplace in the living room!)

Of course, eventually, like every other young gay man who emigrates to New York City, my ultimate dream was to move to Manhattan, which I did three years ago.

But as the old saying goes, something funny happened on the way to Manhattan. By the time I got here, Manhattan (in my opinion) had changed. Considerably more "white bread" than it had been when I first moved to New York, the energy, vibrancy, and PEOPLE of Manhattan that first attracted me to Manhattan seemed to have left, and in their place, in virtually every neighborhood, were FAMILIES comprised mostly of workaholic Wall Street dads with lottery-sized paychecks married to overly-entitled skinny-assed moms carrying Kate Spade bags, toting their own yoga mats, and pushing Volkswagen-sized Bugaboos over my feet on the sidewalks.

What happened to my dream of living in the Village as a writer, gathering with other writers, artists, actors, and musicians? Bleecker Street now looks more like Rodeo Drive than the bohemian Mecca it once was. I feel I have to swap my Pumas for Pradas just to visit the West Village these days. Or how about all those funky, offbeat coffeehouses teeming with academics and scholars on the Upper West Side? Entire blocks have now been taken over by the likes of Victoria's Secret and Baby Gap!

More often than not, these days, when I fantasize about my "dream home" in New York ... it's no longer in Manhattan. I seem to have left my heart in Brooklyn!

Why? It's hard to explain. There's just something about Brooklyn -- "Brownstone" Brooklyn in particular, but also both the more residential as well as the industrial. Unmistakably urban and a city in its own right, Manhattan can drop into the ocean and Brooklyn wouldn't skip a beat. The rich diversity that once was the Manhattan neighborhoods still remains in Brooklyn. I used to love riding my bicycle from my decidedly upper-crust Brooklyn Heights, through the more Upper West Side-feeling neighborhood of Cobble Hill, the industrial Red Hook and Gowanus, and into one of my all-time favorite New York City neighborhoods, Park Slope. Then, down through the more ethnic neighborhoods -- the Jewish Windsor Terrace and Kensington ... the VERY jewish Midwood, with its main drag, Ocean Parkway, wide and graceful like a European boulevard, with block after block of stately prewar buildings peeking through enormous old trees. Down into Bensonhurst and Bay Ridge -- very Italian, very "old neighborhood", with majestic, sweeping views of the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, and New York Harbor.

I think what sets Brooklyn apart from Manhattan, is the feeling of "home" -- that while Manhattan continues its relentless urban metamorphosis, that comforting sense of stability and history will always be waiting for you when you tire of your Big Manhattan Adventure and are ready to finally Come Home to Brooklyn.

That's just how I feel.

this is a great topic. i am a queens native, and my dream for the last 5 years was to buy in manhattan - closed in september. never did i think i would consider brooklyn as an alternative. but towards the end of my hunt, even i could not resist. the mix of neighborhoodiness/cosmopolitan/bohemia is awesome. you can have a backyard, and still walk to the subway, or the independent moviehouse/coffeeplace/whatever. the music/art scene in wburg / bushwick is tops right now, and i usually go there on the weekends even though i live in the east village. i love brooklyn and will likely live there when i'm older. i've spent a lot of time there in the last 10 years and every time i get up on a rooftop in brooklyn i get the same chills, memories. the sky is so beautiful from that point of view. now if we can only prevent it from getting completely whitewashed/sanitized in the next 5 - 10 years...

NYCMatt, my point exactly. When I lived in the Village in the 70's, my neighbors were artists, designers, writers, grad students, a banjo player, a windowdresser at Bendels who regularly went and got beat up in "the trucks" under the West Side Highway, and an old lady who remembered riding the Jane Street Ferry to NJ for picnics. Where will you find that now? Not the Richard-Meierized Village.

BJW2103, my husband's website is pollockspark.com. He is a business coach for creative businesses and creative individuals.

JimSE, I haven't had time to kill, actually yet, and haven't explored it all at all. There's Greenpoint too. I feel like there aren't enough nights left in my lifetime to try all the bars that look appealing.

How about a brooklyn bar crawl w/ Lofty for the next SE mmetup!

I'm working on the list!

Although NYC consists of five boroughs, it is really an amalgem of dozens of distinct neighborhoods. It seems futile to compare Manhattan to Brooklyn, The Bronx to Queens. Every neighborhood is distinct, regardless of which borough it is situated in. Transportation, ethnicity, architecture, workplaces, culture, etc. Walk a couple of blocks in a given direction and "you are not in Kansas anymore". Prospect Heights / Mill Basin? SOHO / UES?

Um, SoHo isn't "a couple of blocks" from the UES.

Nor is Mill Basin "a couple of blocks" from Prospect Heights.

This is a very interesting discussion and I thank everyone for their thoughtful comments. So many people seem to be moving to Brooklyn and from your comments, I can definitely see the appeal. It seems that everyone can find their "dream" neighborhood somewhere in Brooklyn. I've always been drawn to Brooklyn since both of my parents grew up in East New York (Brownsville) and while some of the neighborhoods have changed quite a bit, some are not that different from when my parents lived there. Thanks again to everyone.

Born and raised in Brooklyn, formative years in Manhattan (particularly high school), and lived as an adult in both Brooklyn and Manhattan. I think I'm decently qualified for this one....

But, with some specific exceptions, I think the "Brooklyn is hot" thing was way overblown. Its a compromise. Its missing a lot of what folks come to "the city" for. Its great that you get some things in return, but you get that in the surburbs, too.

As I said earlier, I think Brooklyn has become for many the suburb for those who just don't want to admit they moved to the suburbs.

You can talk all you want about how close, but jersey city is a few minutes from downtown, too. Hell, weekawken to midtown. Or whatever. Doesn't make 'em any more "the city".

Actually, Brooklyn IS "the city". It's part of the City of New York.

And before that, it was the CITY of Brooklyn -- at one point, America's FOURTH largest city.

In fact, Brooklyn by itself has nearly twice the population as Manhattan ("the city"), and by itself would be America's fourth largest city behind the COMBINED boroughs of New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago.

Calling Brooklyn a "suburb" is about as accurate as calling steak and potatoes an "appetizer".

Any thoughts in WB public schools? I wonder how does this work when so much of it demographics is below 3O yrs old...

Who cares how "hot" Brooklyn is being perceived? Unless you're in the business of flipping properties (and I don't think too many are anymore anyway). It's a great place to live, so why have the discussion. People have their preferences, and both are clearly cities. Equating it to a "suburb" is so far-fetched, I'm not sure I have words.

mimi, at the risk of reigniting a tired, lengthy, and fairly pointless debate that's been had on this very board, I'll say that some of the WB public schools are actually doing pretty well and parents seem quite happy with a few in particular. These are not outstanding schools, but the trends are in place, and things will have to improve given the growing number of families in the area (despite the stereotype, as many "hipsters" have really moved to Bushwick or Ridgewood since rents here are still pretty high). Greenpoint schools are quite good as well.

Tks bjw. Do you happen to know the public schools that are considered the best there? Or any source where I can find info about them?

I mean the ones you mention as "a few in particular"

A big issue for me is access to someplace to bike and/or rollerblade, which I prefer to do on the West side path (I hate the crowds in central park). So...for me...Wmburg is more interesting because I can bike over the bridge and get on the path that goes along the river..

mimi, no problem. The standouts are PS 132 and PS 17, with PS 84, I believe, a bit further back. Insideschools.org is a decent start for information. There's a good online board specifically for WB parents (brooklynbabyhui).

jim, and hopefully we'll have the greenway in Brooklyn (fingers crossed!).

OMG I'm agreeing with Matt...sort of. His description of what Manhttan, especially the West Village has become is pretty dead on. I don't feel qualified to comment on Brooklyn having never lived there but at least spent a lot time in Bay Ridge/Bensonhurst as well as pre-gentrified Court Street in the 70s-80s. Brooklyn was a pretty scary place back then, racial polarization you could cut with a knife (no pun intended although it sometimes went like that) much more so than Manhattan. I imagine its very different now. Personally, I still think of Brooklyn is someplace you move because you can't afford Manhattan but I know that's wrong. I attended a party at one of the Victorian houses in Flatbush/Midwood. Wow!! (This one was owned for many years by a civil service couple, not recently renovated by wall st money) And not far from the D train. Personally, as a Manhattan native, I'm allergic to any commute over 30 minutes but for 10 minutes more, this would certainly be a better option than 2 hours to suburban sub-division. Plus you get diversity and ethnic food in the deal!

I took the decision to stop looking in Manhattan and start looking in Brooklyn about 4 months ago, and I have been generally happy with it, although I can see many of the things we'll be losing out on once we move to B'klyn. Then again, saying Brooklyn vs. Manhattan is very broad, since it is one thing to compare Tribeca v Park Slope and another Tribeca v Bushwick, or conversely Central Harlem v Cobble Hill. There's a certain point in which the less expensive of the well-off (for lack of a better term) areas in Manhattan (for example, Yorkville) and the most attractive areas in Brooklyn have similar prices psf, however, the big big difference is the maintenance/tax costs. Except for some traditional buildings in Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope and the new developments, most of the housing stock in "brownstone Brooklyn" are, ejem, brownstones. Usually 4, 6 or 8 unit coops that share a big brownstone. The CC in those cases are very low, in part because there are not expenses such as doormen, elevator, etc. but also because the buildings were purchased so cheaply years ago when they turned into coops that they have small or not underlying mortgages. So typically you end up paying, say, 700K for a 1000 sqft apartment, but your CC are $500 or $600 instead of $1500 or 1600. And that reduces your expenses 25%.

bjw, any recommendations for middle and high schools in WB?

Liz, as always I enjoy reading your comments and your mention of the "pre-gentrified Court Street in the 70's and 80's" brought back memories for me. I worked right near Court Street/Borough Hall in the very late 80's and you're correct that there was alot of racial tension at that time. I remember having to walk with a co-worker over the Brooklyn Bridge to Manhattan to get the subway since that the only way that you leave Brooklyn that day due to protests. Twenty years later, it seems like a different world.

even ten years ago seems like a different world. my friends rented a huge loft in bushwick and would have wild, amazing, parties. it was in the middle of nowhere, you literally had to drive to get any kind of food or beer or anything. we used to take the L to bedford to eat, when bedford was just a bulletin board.. now i go back by the same area and am shocked to see how quickly the hipsters have descended - they even have coffee shops and clothing stores, and walk around without fear. incredible!

Lobster...Did you ever happen to venture into a place (full disclosure...gin mill) called O'Keefe's on Court Street. At least in the 1985-1988 time frame it was a great representation of what I would call REAL New York: telephone repairmen, bookies, bettors, small time wise guys, cops, construction workers and some white collar stragglers. The guy who owned O'Keefe's also owned Dave's Tavern on 43rd Street between 7th and 8th where employees from the Times went when they were supposedly working (automation long having made their jobs uncessesary but contracts giving them iron clad job security) as well as some attracting some Times Square characters and ZERO families from Virginia who want to stand in front of the Today Show looking stupid and eat at Applebees even though they are in New York.

My god, how old are you glamma? You make it sound as if you're over 40 and pushing 50. If you were a guy, I'd ask you if you make the old man noise whenever you get up.

Brooklyn - only a few parts of it do I like. For me, most of it is dirty, unkept, and filled with a high percentage of people with no class and manners.

Liz, I worked in Brooklyn Heights from 1987 until 1990 or 1991. I worked in a place which had many young people besides myself and I recall all of us sometimes hanging out in the office after regular work hours ordering food, etc. Why we all didn't go out somewhere in the neighborhood makes no sense to me now. Sounds like you had some fun times at O'Keefe's.

1OneWon, having never met Glamma (although I like the name), I have no idea how old she is but I hate to break it to you but one day you'll also be over 40, maybe even 50. Enjoy your youth and remember that women over the age of 40 are still people and still have real feelings.

1OneWon your statement goes to Manhattan more than Brooklyn. Most of the clueless yuppies who have come from butf*#$&*ck nebraska or idaho to live on the island, have no clue what planet they are on. I moved out of Carroll Gardens, would expect one of the neighborhoods you do like, because the yuppies were walking in a daze crossing the narrow streets without paying any attention. They thought that cars can't fit on these small streets, can they? The prices got out of hand, because these clueless idiots did not realize that if you go 4-5 blocks, the lbs of apples will cost you 99c not $2.50.

For those talking about brooklyn brownstones:

- if you are out of town quite a bit, say easily a three month chunk,

do you see any practical problems like some maintanence issue arising (or i suppose the super would fix it)
do you see any danger of a break-in ,,or no one but the neighbors would notice you away

would your neighbors likely object (under coop rules, i guess) if you rented to someone occasionally? ( in a doorman place there is big danger of objection)

I only lived in a small building once...on clinton street 22 years ago,...and don't remember..and in those days had little worth robbing.

haha I am only 30! I got an early start I guess...

One, darling, speaking of people with no class or manners - got a mirror? OMG, over 40, pushing 50!?! Unless you die young, luv, that shall be your fate as well. Do us all a favor & stop acting the fool.

glamma - I know you're not that old :), from the days when you posted about your EV buy. It was a tongue-in-cheek thing. I know you got it, but for all the other cantankerous people that didn't get it, I'll include a "j/k" to not confuse them... rolls-eyes....

Lived in Brooklyn for the last 13 years, but whenever I was to make a move to the City, something always came to stop it. E.g. there was a murder in a building I was to move to, a roommate bailed on the last minute when it was time to cough up the money for 1st, 2nd, Deposit, & last, present LL offered 30% rent reduction, and etc..

Still prefer the City if all things were equal (space, and price) except for Brooklyn Heights. I still prefer BH over just about any other neighborhood in the City.

I am, however, looking forward to being 40/50 in lovely brownstone brooklyn.

mimi, I'm much less versed in the middle and high schools in the area. My guess is these schools haven't felt the same kind of pressure yet from the influx of young families to the area, as most of their children aren't past kindergarten or elementary school age yet. I would expect that would ratchet up in the next 5-10 years. If you're considering northside Williamsburg and have slightly older kids, I'd look at the Greenpoint schools, as District 14 encompasses both areas.

glamma sounds like we had the same experience (from Queens, thought of Manhattan as the place to be) except I ultimately closed in Park Slope in March and I'm confident I made the right decision and unless I leave the state entirely I'm not sure I could find another place that's more "me." But I will say that it is about neighborhoods. Like the neighborhoods in Brooklyn I like I LOVE more than anyplace else but I probably wouldn't live in most of Brooklyn whereas Manhattan in general is probably more inhabitable so far as what people in this discussion would be looking for if that makes sense.

I've lived in Brooklyn all my life. Started in Sheepshead, moved to Carroll Gardens then Kensington and now back to Sheephead. The diversity that you get on every block of "deeper" Brooklyn is fantastic. I have Russian, Turkish, Malaysian, Chinese and South American living in the 4 family where I am now. Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope and Carroll Gardens is now only yuppies with few old school italians left.

You're close to the beach, not too far from Manhattan and have enough restaurants, bars, movie theatres, museums and shopping options to never "need" to go into Manhattan.

"I find that most people who "need" to live in Manhattan are transplants who think that NYC is the small island. They'll live on 205 St, work on Wall Street and not realize that they can be saving money and time by living just on the other side of the bridge. "

Wow, wacky stereotypes.

I need to live in Manhattan.

And I don't live on 255th street, and I did live just on the other side of the bridge (literally) and I didn't save much time (my commute got cut in half moving back to .

And I'm not a transplant, I grew up going to the same movie theaters you did.

"I would rather live in Queens than Manhattan with kids."

I'd cry if I had to, and if I had to, I'd probably leave NYC. You can talk about the schools all you want, they're pretty awful compared to Long Island or other options. And you can call out Manhattan kids all you want, and talk about privilege and such - which would happen anywhere for the children of retards - but I know a whole lot more outer borough sad cases than Manhattan. Want to send your kids to Jamaica High School?

Yes, things are cheaper. But Kansas is cheaper, too.

"You're close to the beach, not too far from Manhattan and have enough restaurants, bars, movie theatres, museums and shopping options to never "need" to go into Manhattan."

Amusingly, leave out the Manhattan part and you've described...

New Jersey
Long Island
Virginia Beach
Jersey City
...

Hell, remove the beach (because are people in Park slope really going so much) and you have... well, most of america.

If you only need to be near "decent" restaurants and ok shopping and a museum now and then, why on earth pay more to be in NYC.

Go to Boston. Go to any one of the cheaper cities.

But, to me, to pay the 2x or whatever to live in the outer boroughs or NYC suburbs, when you go to a museum once a year, and don't eat out... I wonder, why bother.

Or just move somewhere an hour out on Jersey Transit or the Long Island railroad.

I would guess most people reading SE wouldn't want their kids to go Jamaica HS, but they might feel diffrently about Towsend Harris also in Queens. I would also guess that Norman Thomas in the heart of Murray Hill or Brandeis on the UWS aren't on the HS "wish list" either. Fortunately, I'm hearing great things from parents about several great new options in public HS. (Anyone hear of Millileum? I know two kids who attend and both they and their parents are very, very happy.) I suspect these new schools are being developed in all boroughs.

I would hardly compare the restaurants in Williamsburg or Park Slope/Prospect Heights to those in Virginia Beach. Actually, I think those neighborhoods have a significantly better restaurant scene than most of Manhattan, save parts of the LES, East Village, and far West Village (granted, I'm talking about restaurants for your average Friday night -- for those of us who aren't frequenting the Daniels and Le Bernardins of the world on a weekly basis). There are a lot of young chefs with great backgrounds opening up new places here.

Brooklyn isn't everybody's vibe, but lots of its residents wouldn't want to be anywhere else. I chose it over Manhattan, and I could have afforded a nice place in Manhattan -- just not a place with the confluence of factors my Brooklyn place has: a fantastic prewar apartment with great amenities (park, farmer's market, etc.). And it's not as yuppified as people say; my building in Park Slope has more non-yuppies (writers, artists, art-world-affiliated people, etc.) than my building in the West Village did. And in my personal, sheerly anecdotal experience, brownstone Brooklyn also seems to attract a lot of "45 degrees from yuppiedom" sorts -- lawyers who became law profs instead of big firm partners, Ivy League MBAs who work at nonprofits, physicians who went into public health or government, that sort of thing. I like the fact that people on a greater variety of tracks in life can afford to live here.

What about middle and high public schools in Brooklyn compared to Manhattan?

Do any of you brooklyn people ride bikes for leisure, and if so, where do you go? In Manhattan, you can loop around the island, and also go up to the George Wash bridge over to the hudson parkway for a longer ride.?

(Virginia beach restaurants are mostly seriously awful tourist places, although there are some excellent seafood places.)

Jimstreeteasy: Prospect Park has a 3.5-mile loop; a few spins around that isn't bad for an after-work kind of workout.

Also: I'm pretty sure there's a bike path (a true path, not just a lane) that goes from Prospect Park all the way to Coney Island, down Ocean Parkway.

i love living in Williamsburg. i've lived upper east, upper west, chelsea, gramercy, east village, park slope, prospect heights, and cobble hill and i work in Soho, so i've gotten around. WB is basically what i wanted out of NYC. honestly, we moved to get a giant apartment to live for ever and ever in, but have been thrilled with the people and what there is to do. husband works in midtown and for both of us quick commutes. i take a car home a lot from soho and it's under 15 minutes. the restaurants are amazing, the shops are interesting, there's galleries and, of course, tons of music venues. our kid has a million friends and is in a great class at a local school. the elementary school options in district 14 are very good - 132, 31, 34 and there's a new private school, Williamsburg Northside and a new charter, Teccs. Apparently, MS577 is good as well.

Quiz in this weeks's Time Out New York

http://newyork.timeout.com/quiz/752/752-brooklyn-vs-manhattan-quiz

Here's the accompanying article

http://newyork.timeout.com/articles/own-this-city/83188/brooklyn-vs-manhattan-editors-debate-which-is-better

Whatever works for you. Don't be a snob.

"And since we no longer work in midtown - I freelance from home and he has clients mostly from Flatiron down, it's actually QUICKER to get where we go than from the UWS."

This is true about parts of Jersey, too. Want to live there?

"in virtually every neighborhood, were FAMILIES comprised mostly of workaholic Wall Street dads with lottery-sized paychecks married to overly-entitled skinny-assed moms carrying Kate Spade bags, toting their own yoga mats, and pushing Volkswagen-sized Bugaboos over my feet on the sidewalks"

The funny thing is, this is a great description of... Brooklyn.

The worst part about Brooklyn is... its not Manhattan. People like Kansas, too. Or Boston. Or Moscow. But its just not Manhattan.

I grew up in Brooklyn, did more than one tour of duty, and its just not Manhattan. Way too much of the "its better" arguments I've heard really just boil down to sour grapes.

I grew up in Queens but have been living in Manhattan since '97.
But as a native NY'er, I know the 4 boroughs pretty well(SI is jersey to me).
It's true, Manhattan is not the same. I attribute the biggest change to 9/11. The pulse of this city never really fully recovered from that point. On top that, gentrification has taken a toll as well. And though Brooklyn has closed the gap a little bit in the last ten years, the divide is still great. Your still comparing a Mercedes to a Volvo.
And it's not about snobbery,it just is.
TO native NY'ers, it's not "the island." We just call it and alway have called "the city." Everywhere else it's the burbs, including brooklyn.

Brooklyn is not Manhattan. So what? Some of us like it better than Manhattan, especially for the price. A person doesn't have to have "sour grapes" to appreciate the architecture and the atmosphere of brownstone Brooklyn.

Brooklyn is also not Kansas. Anyone who compares it to Kansas should spend two years in Topeka and get back to me.

And it seems wrong to me to characterize a densely populated area where you don't need a car for daily life as the suburbs. But call it what you will -- I don't think you're going to convince the Brooklyn-lovers they're missing out on life. ;-)

Brooklyn is not Manhattan. So what? Some of us like it better than Manhattan, especially for the price. A person doesn't have to have "sour grapes" to appreciate the architecture and the atmosphere of brownstone Brooklyn.

Brooklyn is also not Kansas. Anyone who compares it to Kansas should spend two years in Topeka and get back to me.

And it seems wrong to me to characterize a densely populated area where you don't need a car for daily life as the suburbs. But call it what you will -- I don't think you're going to convince the Brooklyn-lovers they're missing out on life. ;-)

" Your still comparing a Mercedes to a Volvo.
And it's not about snobbery,it just is.
TO native NY'ers, it's not "the island." We just call it and alway have called "the city." Everywhere else it's the burbs, including brooklyn."

Bingo.

> Some of us like it better than Manhattan, especially for the price.

This mistake keeps being made over and over again. Folks are confusing preference with compromise.

If a "preference" for Brooklyn is based on price, its not a preference.
Its a compromise.

I don't prefer generic brands, I just sometimes like paying less.
I certainly don't like them better. I just choose not to pay for better.

> to appreciate the architecture and the atmosphere of brownstone Brooklyn

I also appreciate the architecture of Chicago, and the atmopshere of Brownstone Boston.

Doesn't mean I want to live there.... and certainly doesn't mean its anywhere near Manhattan.

"And it seems wrong to me to characterize a densely populated area where you don't need a car for daily life as the suburbs."
You don't need a car in lots of suburban towns.... and, the incredible increase in the driving population in brownstone brooklyn starts to show that the ability to be off it is less and less.

Brooklyn is absolutely in many ways the suburbs. Many of the folks who move for more room/price/backyard/bla would have been in westchester just a few years back.

Doesn't mean suburb is bad, but it is in the majority of neighborhoods discussed definitely not the urban life of Manhattan.

I mean, just look at how many decisions to move to brooklyn are kid-based.

Brooklyn isn the suburb for folks who don't want to admit they live in the suburbs...

C'mon. Large swaths of Manhattan represent a "compromise" by that standard as well. So long as I can't afford my classic 7 on lower Fifth Avenue, I'll take my 3BR in brownstone Brooklyn over one in Yorkville any day. :)

To me, what differentiates Brooklyn from a suburb (besides density, and aside from the fact that I can get to Union Square as fast as or faster than I could from the W. 90s, where I lived at one point) is the fact that the people I know there are as attuned to urban life -- where to see interesting music (whether in BK or MH), where to get good food, what interesting new place to visit on the weekend -- as those I know in Manhattan who have similar personal situations. Kids do, of course, make most people far more lame than they were previously. But that's as true of my friends in Manhattan as of those in Brooklyn.

It's true that several parts of Brooklyn have a suburban feel relative to most of Manhattan, but there are certainly neighborhoods that look and feel just as urban as many Manhattan areas. It's silly and frankly inaccurate to be so reductive as one borough vs the other. Ignoring price, I prefer my little corner of Brooklyn to just about any block in Manhattan. I was lucky enough to end up there, but I am nowhere near arrogant or egotistic enough to tell others what's "better."

"C'mon. Large swaths of Manhattan represent a "compromise" by that standard as well."

Absolutely. But that doesn't make the original claim any more correct.
Once price factors in, its simply not preference, just levels of compromise. Same goes for "I get more for the same $$$ in [brooklyn, wherever]".

Its not a preference, just what you want to trade off.

"To me, what differentiates Brooklyn from a suburb (besides density, and aside from the fact that I can get to Union Square as fast as or faster than I could from the W. 90s, where I lived at one point)"

Well, if the game becomes compare one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Brooklyn for one of the least expensive south of 96th....

"the fact that the people I know there are as attuned to urban life -- where to see interesting music (whether in BK or MH), where to get good food, what interesting new place to visit on the weekend -- as those I know in Manhattan who have similar personal situations."

Well, maybe therein lies the difference. I hope to actually live near and eat at the good restaurant, not simply live near people who have gone... ;-) I'm not moving to Jersey because the entire block reads TimeOut daily.

Who knows, maybe the folks you know who moved to the burbs feel the need to overcompensate and read up on "the city". Maybe you don't know cool manhattanites. Who knows? Who cares?

The primary reason Manhattan is more expensive is because thats where the "stuff" IS... and I prefer to be near the stuff.