PreWar Apartment Features

-- Ceiling height. At least 9 feet, often 10 or even 11 feet.

-- Detailed crown moulding and more massive woodwork, including 10 inch (or even taller) baseboards.

-- More generously-sized rooms and better layouts. Most prewars have entry foyers (much more preferable than entering directly into a living room -- or worse, kitchen).

-- SEPARATE KITCHEN. One of the best features of prewar apartments, in my opinion, is the kitchen as its own room, as opposed to the dreaded "open kitchen" layouts that architects are forcing down our throats as a way to mask how stingy the living rooms *would* be if the kitchens were properly walled off.

-- Thicker walls.

*foyer vs. entry gallery
*pantried kitchen?
*plumbing lines where scullery used to be?
*eat-in-kitchen possible? (They weren't designed as such, but you might like it)
*stupid bathroom arrangements (not ensuite in MBR; where do guests go?)
*maid's rooms that are passably useful vs. totally useless for sleeping
*severely overpainted moldings?
*windows with really bad alley views and lack of light, especially on lower floors?
*closets: double-deep, for seasonal switchoff ... but really bad for reach-through. Also double-poled, also for seasonal switchoff.
*backdoor to service elevator and garbage area ... better buildings pick up from there, rather than having trash chutes.
*Does the flow of rooms tell a story, of elegant entertaining and the arrival of guests for cocktails, then dinner, then back to living room, and of the doors that the maid uses during said party? Good.

Matt and Alan, thank you both for your tremendous help. Matt, I also love the separate kitchen feature of a prewar apartment. That's a major reason why I like this type of apartment. Alan, did you know all this off the top of your head? I'm impressed and I also absolutely love your very literary and evocative description of telling s story about guests arriving for cocktails and dinner. It puts me in the mood to see a 1930's or 1940's film. Happy holidays to both of you.

This is really interesting. Reading these boards, and looking at pictures and floor plans, I have wondered for a long time what it is that people see (other than nostalgia for a more elegant era) in the prewar apartments, because in general I don't get it at all. The "open kitchen" discussion was very revealing, I would never *ever* want a kitchen that would require me to leave my guests in mid conversation every time I needed to go there -- I suppose that if you have kitchen help or catering that's not an issue, but we cook. It is definitely true that a lot of new construction kitchens are too small to deserve that name (despite the openness), but it is possible to find open, new/recent construction kitchens with decent amounts of counter/cabinet space and the required openness. The apartment being discussed on another thread this morning, with the toilet in the middle of the kitchen, is one of these examples of something I completely don't get. Why would anyone drop $2M on a place that has a freaking toilet (and not even a sink) in the middle of where food is prepared? I have seen a shower in a kitchen before, but that was East Berlin, on a building whose occupants were mostly college students, not Manhattan for $2M... I could go on on some of the other features, but since I'm still fairly new to streeteasy postings, I don't want to rant for too long and become tiresome.

Beam, thanks for your comments. What is it that you prefer about new construction, if that is your perference other than having an open kitchen near the dining area? I think that what you say is true to a certain extent that people who like prewars have an idea of "nostalgia for a more elegant era", but I generally find new construction too sterile an environment and lacking in charm for my taste although I do see the appeal of having modern A/C and other features.

there is quite a bit of possibility to have both experiences, ie. the open kitchen but the ability to close it off, depending on the way the kitchen, butler's panty (usually a long hall way), maid's room and dining room are aligned.

You're right, columbiacounty. I'm thinking of the floorplan referenced by NWT in the earlier discussion on best apartments for $2M and if I remember correctly, it would be possible in that apartment. Any other floorplan that you recall with this design.

here's just one example. floorplan is in original condition.

http://www.corcoran.com/images/media/UnitFloorplans/424402.1.gif

I don't mean this as a dig at anyone here, so please don't be offended (for one thing it seems to apply to the entire NYC RE world not just SE) but why does the word "prewar" automatically conjure an imagae of an upscale apartment with things like butler's pantries and maids' rooms. Trust me, there were many, many residences built before WWII (or even WWI since its been argued that is what defines "prewar") that have absolutely none of these. In fact I can't think of very many "postwar" tenements.

Just an observation...hope everyone had a great holiday whether celebrating Christmas or movie and Chinese.

Yes, it all depends on the market the building was originally intended to meet. Here's an old thread with some good points: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/11226-pre-war-v-post-war

Re: toilets off the kitchen, they're just a relic of their period. See http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/73/4188973.gif and http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/56/2436056.jpg, and I've seen them all over. People who don't like them just replace with a washer-dryer or expand the kitchen into the space. Saves a lot of schlepping from the kitchen all the way through the apartment. When having a party, it's handy for the bartender.

Liz, you're correct and that was the point of my original question- what is standard in a prewar apartment? I don't know if a maid's room and/or butler's pantry should be present in all prewar apartments.

Also see 180 E 79 St, a very-well-planned building for its time. The A and B lines, the only ones without maid's rooms, each had a toilet off the kitchen. In the 10A and 12B plans at http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/25485/floorplans, the second small windows in the kitchens indicate where the toilets used to be.

lobster: to answer your question, my favorite thing in new construction is large windows, with lots of light. Our current apartment has a 27' wall of glass with amazing views in the living room, and I absolutely love it! Other items include better use of space, such as in closets, which tend to be more abundant and better distributed in newer construction, W/D already built in or at least the existence of a convenient space and hookups for it (I do like the idea of replacing the kitchen toilet with a W/D, btw). There are many things that can be achieved with renovations, but having lived in a house for a few years (that we still own but no longer live in) taught us that we're neither the DYI-type nor interested in renovation projects that would impact our living space.

Lobster --- maid's room and/or pantry ARE NOT standard in pre-war apt. All over the upper west side are many pre-war places without either. There is a huge range of pre-war, huge, huge. And so nothing is really standard.

I would think a working fireplace, but there have been stories about home owner association boards prohibiting their use due.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/16/nyregion/16bono.html
The dispute is over whether hazardous smoke from fireplaces, including Mr. Squier’s, is drifting from chimneys into the penthouse duplex where Bono lives with his wife and four children. About a year ago the co-op board banned the use of fireplaces throughout the building, angering fireplace owners, who love a pine-scented blaze in the city as well as their enhanced property values.

As with other co-op disputes, exact details are hard to pin down because these buildings are essentially private clubs run by a board of elected tenants, and anyone who airs grievances in public risks being ostracized in his own hallway, sometimes for generations. The San Remo, at West 74th Street, is home to many prominent New Yorkers, including Steve Martin, Steven Spielberg, the producers Scott Rudin and James L. Nederlander, and the writers Andrew Tobias and Marshall Brickman.

Beam, you make a compelling case for new construction. For me, the enhanced closets are a definite plus as well as the modern A/C and in-unit W/D. Poorishlady, thanks for the explanation about maid's romms and pantries. BTW, I liked the Sherlock Holmes film (qusetion on another thread) and as always, Robert Downey Jr. was excellent. Films to see in the future for me include "It's Complicated", "A Single Man" with Colin Firth, "Up in the Air" and "Crazy Heart" with Jeff Bridges. Riversider, excellent point about working fireplaces. In addition, I was in Bergdorf Goodman a few months and I looked up and who is standing right next to me wearing a hat and sunglasses but Steve Martin. I've lived in NYC 17 years and have seen very few celebrities so it was exciting for me.

Ah, a post after my own heart. There are prewar, prewar, prewark, prewar apts. I know the housing stock on the UWS well. Tenements aside & other small walkup buildings aside, let's talk about the apartment buildings designed for the "middle class" on the UWS. I'm no architectural historian, but here's my amateur take (UWS-specific).

Towards the end of the 19th century, you have large-scale development of townhouses. While there's no "typical" townhouse, these were either brick, brownstone, limestone or a combination thereof, ranging in size from over 20 feet to 14 feet, with stoop or without stoop, 4 or 5 "above-ground" stories (some exceptions). Townhouse co-ops and condos exist downtown & uptown. These form one type of "prewar apt". IMO, the most desired tend to be in elevator-ed wide townhouses, such as those on the Hardenberg row on 74th street. Approx. 25' in depth, and usually extended in the back, you get a solid 1500+ sqft, some of these have working FPs, a little terrace, high ceilings (over 9', higher on the parlor floor) and because they have been altered beyond original use, certainly many of these have eat-in Ks.

Townhouses didn't last very long, because in the absence of landmark laws and sliver building laws, THs came tumbling down, in some cases, lasting as few as 20 years. Large buildings tended to be erected on corners - take 71st & WEA (NW corner) - used to be a continuous row of THs, but now replaced by a large "prewar" building. The prewar buildings that went up around the turn of the century (not the first, preceded by bldgs like the Ansonia, Dakota, Dorilton) had high ceilings (10'+). Some of them had very large apts - 9+ rooms, and were laid out like this - parlor, library, dr in the front with the best views, bedrooms along a long corridor facing light court, kitchen and maid's at the back. Many of these floorplans have been cut up so, if you're looking for smaller apts, many of them have eat-in Ks and don't have maid's rooms, etc. Tell-tale sign of a turn of the C building - higher ceilings, many have kind of a rusticated exterior, rooms tend to be smaller. Examples (both cut-up and not) - 246 WEA, 327W83, 320W87 (I think), the beauties on north and south side of 79th between WEA & RSD, 333CPW,, 375WEA ..

Enter the 20s - many apt bldgs went up during this era. For C6+ apts, I mentally divide apts into 3 categories - the long skinny ones where LR & 1br faces the street, the rest of the apts face courtyard/light court. The DR is in the back next to maid's & K. Either the maid is next to DR or the K is next to DR.
Then you have the LR next to DR apts. Either the K & maid/s are next to DR or they're off in the back (examples include the one CC pointed out + Astor court).
Another variation - LR across from DR (DR next to K+maid's), and bedrooms clustered together past the LR (these apts usually have 3 exposures, 2 street).
Next you have the variation in size of LR - most LRs were rectangular and in some buildings, the LRs are square (at least 20' X 20') (see 685 WEA). And the variation in size of foyer (ranging from 5' to 10').

For smaller apts (that were built as smaller apts), the arrangement is usually similar to the "long skinny" prewar arrangement for C5s (discounting the 1br+DR+maid's from the turn of the century - see Dorilton for an example).

Enter the late 20s/30s, with Art Deco influenced-buildings. These include 55CPW, 411WEA and the one behind church on 79th & Bway, 25CPW, 140RSD (Normandy), 5RSD, 200W86, 315WEA, Gatsby on 71st, El Dorado, and a ton of unnamed, smallish bldgs on the UWS. These have 9' ceilings, but many of them did away with the maid's rooms, and the smaller apts have dining "foyers", step-down LRs... Also more practically laid out - you don't get the uber-long corridors.

Some prewar bldgs had duplexes, but few and far in between.

Generally, penthouses are either cobbled together from maid's quarters (Ansonia for instance) or built as-is (many of the Art Deco buildings had PHs).

Must not neglect the "studio" apts - many fine examples on 67th street (40W67, 50W67, 39W67, 17W67). Some of these were built by and for artists. High ceilings (in some cases, double-ht LRs), high ceilings, tend to be smaller (no maid's rooms, 2 brs).

Another detail - many prewar buildings have manned elevators (which annoy the heck out of me) but others love them.

nyc10023, I've been waiting for you to post all day. Thanks for all the great detail.

Great online resources:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital_old/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?word=Apartment%20houses%20--%20New%20York%20%28State%29%20--%20New%20York&c=151&s=3&notword=&f=2&sScope=Collection%20Guide&sLabel=%26quot%3BClassic%20Six%3A%26quot%3B%20New%20York%20City%20Apart...

Columbia has published RE brochures from Bk online in its arch. history section. Manhattan coming online in the new year (can't wait).

Amazon has digitized various pages from Alpern (sp?) and other arch. books. I suggest buying some of these - great RE porn for the prewar inclined.

If anyone can point me to where I can get my grubby hands on copies of the "Select Apartment Register", I'd be much obliged.

Ah, and interior finishes (not in every bldg):

Plaster medallions & mouldings, solid panelled wood doors (transomed in turn of the C buildings), solid brass hinges & knobs (sometimes glass) - some of the hinges are very special indeed (they have acorn-shaped pins). Glass-paned pocket doors. Oak herringbone or plank floors (look for the tiger-striped/quartersawn floors) - some maid's rooms had much poorer quality floors. Panelled dining rooms, tiled or marble front FPs, elaborate (or not) mantels. Later building have "beamed" ceilings, curved doorways.

Original kitchens - some 20s buildings had the St. Charles kitchens, other ones have solid oak glass-front cabs. Original baths - subway tiles (older blgs have wonderful decorated tiles with relief patterns or crackle tiles, not too many surviving examples), 20s buildings had the subway tiles with a different-color edging. Pedestal sinks. Some very large apts had a separate shower as well as a bathtub for the master bathroom. Tubs - either the stereotypical footed tub or the 2-wall alcove tub with rounded edge.
Medicine cabinet - metal with glass mirror.

If you ever find yourself renovating and not able or want to live with these details, please, please try to get them salvaged instead of throwing in the garbage. My heart almost stopped the day I saw people throwing away these solid doors with glass knobs from a 20s era building nearby and replacing with crappy hollow Masonite doors. Grrr.

Many unwanted UWS french doors were stored in basements of the buildings, until the fire department cracked down, and in one year (can remember the decade, because I'm senile, but probably the 90s) you'd see gaggles of beautiful overpainted french doors with crystal doorknobs thrown out on the street.

Gr, as nyc10023 said, rr.

Wow, nyc10023! Have you written a book on this topic? What a delight to read all this historical detail! Thanks.

Much woodwork was covered under layers of paint. In all fairness, some woodwork was always meant to be painted over - but suffered from years of bad paint jobs. I have seen an apt or two with painted woodwork that was NOT overly painted, and I hope that the new owners didn't rip out all the details.

All this arch. salvage can be sold for a good price, so there's really no need to throw it out on the street. Crystal knob sets alone are 50+ on Ebay, hinges, strikes - all have a market. Vintage tiles are CRAZY expensive as well.

nyc10023 - Just curious, and as you are so knowledgeable - was Rosario Candela the architect for buildings on the UWS as well as on the UES? If so, which buildings? What about Carpenter?

nyc10023, have you seen prewar apartments where renovations/updating weren't done properly?

Candela did lots of UWS buildings, e.g. 240 WEA, most nothing special. He didn't get a fancy rep until later in his career.

Carpenter did two: 246 WEA and 173-175 RSD.

Andrew Alpern did a book of all their buildings: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?EAN=9780926494206

NWT - just seemed as if the greatest, most gracious Candela apartment layouts were done in the late 1920's on the UES. I will have to look up 240 WEA to see when that was done (unless you know off the top of your head).

It just seems as if many of the earlier pre-war (turn of the century to 1920 or so) don't really have the greatest layouts.

Any opoinions on Candela compared to Roth?

240 WEA was 1924.

Candela did great stuff when he had a big budget to work with. Otherwise he cranked them out like anybody else.

Carpenter almost always had the budget and location, and you can tell.

NWT: agreed. They had to work within budget and constraints of the lot.

Lobster: so much is individual taste and the condition of the apt. For instance, I saw 161W75, 12A which was in poor original condition. E.g., Bathroom details all intact but who knows how rotted the walls were - you def. would want to have new bath walls but it would be $$$ and time-consuming to conserve tile. Ditto the kitchen, you'd have to strip the oak cabs and get custom cabs to match. Artful preservation is best left in the hands of young arcitects and designers who have energy & time & attention to detail - which is why I'm a fan of brownstoner.com.

ph41: yes, compared to the housing stock on the UES, prewar UWS is decidedly plebeian. Many, many fewer grand apts for sure.

nyc10023: I have to disagree with you aboout the UWS vs UES comparison. Certainly among the pre WWII buildings this may be the case, but I would take the graciousness of the Morningside Heights WWI-era buildings over the UES 1920s buildings in a heartbeat. Give me an in-tact Ten on the river at 404 Riverside or 417 Riverside any day!

You might want to check out the buildings by Gaetano Ajello. They tend to have beautiful staircases in the lobby, and palatial layouts. See Christopher Gray's piece in the NYT.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/realestate/11scap.html?scp=1&sq=ajello&st=cse

The Strathmore is a very special bldg, my point is that there are many more bldgs with 9+ rooms on the UES.

AH - how could you leave this out - every bathroom has a window in prewar layouts. And there also the "all rooms in one line" layout. Very common in the back of the bldg (usually back narrower than front). Not my favorite layout but if you're lucky enough to face brownstones in the back, the views are much nicer.

nyc10023, thanks for telling me about the apartments at 1 West 67th Street on the other thread. As I proceed along my apartment search, it changes quite a bit. We started out looking at UES postwar condos and now we're searching UWS prewar condos so maybe I'll migrate towards the coops in a few months. Everytime that I read what Kylewest writes about coops, I find myself nodding along with his posts but I'm not there yet.

So for all you real estate porn addicts, like myself, I recommend you take a look at the "World's Loose Leaf Album of Apartment Houses" and the "1913 Supplement to the World's Loose Leaf Album of Apartment Houses." It's a simple collection of the original offering brochures (with complete building floorplans)from the "high class" buildings prior to 1913 -- essentially representing the building boom that occurred after the first UWS IRT subway from 1907-1911.

There's a digital online resource through the NY Public library but you can't really get a good viewing that way. I recommend going one afternoon to the rare books room and sitting with the librarian or, for those with Columbia University ties, going to Avery Library and viewing it on Microform -- it's a positively out-of-body experience.

Lobster: If I may, all of the information on this thread is incredibly useful in general -- but perhaps not the easiest to synthesize as far as actually finding an apartment to buy. I always think it's best to first decide on a specific location and then think about prewar vs postwar and then overlay your apartment search criteria. If you start with your criteria first, you may hit a dead-end. For instance, some of the details described above may only be in Blum Brothers WWI era buildings or Neville and Bagge WWI era buildings or Carpenter WW II era buildings or Roth Art Moderne buildings (not Art Deco -- an example is the Normandy at 140 Riverside). If you have your heart set on one of these details you may find that you have to go to a location or pricepoint that simply won't work and this can cause you to go in circles. Just a suggestion...

Lobster - there are also some pre-war condos on the UES - 50 East 72nd is one

Interior vs. windowed bathrooms is an interesting subject.

I've got one of each, and much prefer the interior one. The exhaust runs all the time, so never any steam or smells. In the other one the window has to be open half the time, which is no good.

Before the 1920s all baths had a window, even if only onto an air shaft. I don't know whether that was because exhaust vents weren't yet allowed, or were just not developed enough. Starting in the late 1910s/1920s you see plans for interior lavs and baths with duct space. Sometimes a huge (2' square) separate duct for each bath.

Then gradually you see more and more baths moving to the interior with much less room for duct space. Maybe the 50-cubic-feet-per-minute rule changed, or the fans on the roof got better.

Same story with kitchens, which also have to be ventilated, moving from outside-windowed to the interior.

West-Side Candela buildings:

1922 215 W 92nd
1922 559 W 169th
1922 881 St Nicholas Ave
1923 915 WEA
1923 878 WEA
1923 304 W 89th
1923 680 RSD
1924 300 W 108th
1924 875 WEA
1924 522 WEA
1924 332 W 86th
1924 240 WEA
1924 519 W 139th
1924 40 W 55th
1925 425 RSD
1925 755 WEA
1925 161 W 75th
1925 174 W 76th
1925 800 WEA
1925 315 W 106th
1926 280 RSD
1926 285 RSD
1925 325 W 86th
1926 607 WEA
1926 820 WEA
1926 100 W 58th
1927 150 W 58th
1927 230 WEA
1928 307 W 57th
1929 40 W 67th
1929 369 CPW
1929 175 W 93rd
1929 75 CPW
1931 56 Seventh Ave

Oops, it's 360 CPW, not 369.

NWT - Incredible work, how did you get that list? It is amazing, and I am having fun (on this slow Sunday) trying to look at floorplans in these buildings. So far, a very mixed bag -a few "classic 6 - 7 type buildings (with nice smaller apartments as well ) but also a lot of very standard, almost generic floorplans, not always better than postwar layouts, though I am sure the materials (floors, doors, etc) are far superior.

How would I get a comparable list of Candela buildings on the East side?

perhaps you may want to try the google.

Yup - just did that - just not as neatly separated West Side and East Side, but lots to look at

The Carpenter/Candela book has a chronological list, so I just pulled the West Side ones.

Just 3.5 pages, so I'll keep going while on a roll.

West-Side Carpenter Buildings

246 WEA
173-175 RSD

Lobster, there is something odd about this search of yours after you've lived 17 years in NYC. Why do you know so little after living here so long? I'm puzzled ......

East-Side Carpenter Buildings

1910 116 E 58th (demolished)
1912 960 Park
1913 3 E 85th
1914 635 Park
1914 640 Park
1916 907 Fifth
1917 630 Park
1917 550 Park
1920 4 E 66th
1921 115 E 82nd
1921 950 Park
1921 30 CPS (should be West Side)
1921 145 E 52 (demolished)
1921 920 Fifth
1923 1148 Fifth
1923 1143 Fifth
1923 580 Park
1924 1060 Park
1924 4 E 95th
1924 620 Park
1924 655 Park
1924 1150 Fifth
1925 145 E 73rd
1925 1030 Fifth
1925 1120 Fifth
1925 610 Park
1926 1165 Fifth
1926 1170 Fifth
1926 1035 Fifth
1926 1115 Fifth
1926 988 Fifth
1926 810 Fifth
1926 170 E 79th
1927 112 CPS (should be West Side)
1927 950 Fifth
1927 825 Fifth
1927 812 Park
1928 1060 Fifth
1929 14 E 90th
1929 625 Park
1929 1 E 88th (demolished)

East-Side Candela Buildings

1923 1105 Park
1924 29 Spring St
1924 41 Fifth
1926 1 Sutton Place South
1926 1172 Park
1926 1192 Park
1926 995 Fifth
1926 120 E 56th
1927 130 E 39th
1927 990 Fifth
1927 775 Park
1928 2 E 70th
1928 2 E 67th
1928 960 Fifth
1928 447 E 57th
1928 25 Sutton Place
1928 30 Sutton Place
1928 8 E 96th
1928 19 E 98th
1929 70 E 96th
1929 720 Park
1929 1 Gracie Square
1929 40 E 66th
1929 1025 Park
1929 14 Sutton Place South
1930 4 Sutton Place
1930 770 Park
1930 740 Park
1930 1220 Park
1930 1040 Fifth
1930 340 E 57th
1930 133 E 80th
1931 778 Park
1931 834 Fifth
1931 12 E 88th
1932 2 Beekman Place
1937 19 E 72nd
1938 955 Fifth
1939 248 E 46th
1941 44 E 67th
1950 1 E 66th
1950 135 E 54th

I left out windowed bathrooms because I like the original question on this thread, which is not "prewar vs. postwar," but "what to look for in a prewar?", i.e. among common design variants, what are better and worse?

Someone in this thread alluded to a common feature in 1900-to-the-eve of the Great War apartments -- the long long bedroom corridor. That's a love-it-or-not feature ... feels sort of like an oceanliner corridor.

Someone else referred to working-class housing, which is generally understood not to fall into the category of "prewar", but rather "old". But I guess I hijacked the "prewar" issue by turning it into a "classic 6,7,etc." discussion. It would be interesting to know the history of purpose-built 1 bedrooms in these buildings. I suspect that until the 1920s, they were only in the buildings that were "apartment hotels", which I understand to be those that had a dining room at the ground level, albeit apartments that could be huge with many many rooms.

You beat me to it, AH. I was going to mention apartment hotels. Some of them have rather nice-looking exteriors. On the UWS, 23W73, a few on 72nd (Hargrave?), Franconia (?), Olcott, Belleclaire, Milburn (some of them are still hotels/SROs), Opera (2166 Bway), Ansonia. Buildings that were hotels but torn down - Andrews, Nevada (now 2025 Broadway, horrible ugly bldg replacing a nice looking Belle Epoque-building that narrowly missed getting converted into senior housing).

From what I've seen, 3 or 4 room apts exist (as built) in prewar apt buildings (645 WEA, for example). I don't know if there was not a market for them, or if they were shoehorned if possible to maximize lot usage.

The Imperial on 79th, I think, was built as a hotel (and still is a flea-baggy one). Also Riverside (?), narrow skinny building on RSD in the mid-70s - I have dreams about converting the building into floor-through units - landmarked THs to south and east, so spectacular views to be had.

NWT: where can I buy a copy of the Select Register? You said you were not a broker - are you an architect?

No, just a frustrated one with a lot of books and plans.

The Corcoran office next to Zabar's used to have the Select Register in loose-leaf binders in their front room, so there must be a source for it somewhere. I remember looking at it at the NYPL many years ago, but it might be just on microfilm now.

In the mid-1990s a now-defunct RE site with defective security had the Select Register scanned, but only in some weird format you could print but not save.

Ah, that's where I got my plans from (I have a utility that prints screens to PDF) - www.olr.com or www.olx.com, can't remember which...

Thanks rsm and ph41 for your comments. Poorishlady, I'm puzzled by your comment. I'm sure that you meant no offense, but I've really never paid much attention to apartments other than just somewhere to live until very recently. But a comment like yours again confirms that sometimes it's best not to disclose any personal information on this website since we're all strangers and the comments here can be misinterpreted easily. I'm starting to agree more and more with the people who occasionally post here and say that people can be unkind on SE and that it's best to just read comments and not participate.

There were some built as hotels (i.e. for transients of various sorts), but the apartment hotel is its own hard-to-understand thing. I think the target audience might have been bachelors and young families that put an emphasis on entertaining, but not housekeeping, and it was a hotel insofar as the building provided a lot of services like meals and catering. I'm not sure if they had maid's rooms in the apartments, or in the garrets, rather than just as a hotel service.

It had hardly any listings, so if you got to URL www.blahblah.com/plans/1234567 from a link you could try other meaningless numbers in place of 1234567 and pull up other stuff. Huge hassle.

Wow, that Carpenter/Candela book I paid $70 for in 2002 is going for $1,000 on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0926494201/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1261952075&sr=8-1&condition=used

Could've sworn there were copies at the Strand, but that might've been years ago.

Yowzers, I think I have a copy. We're rich, we're rich.

Lobster: don't take comments like that to heart. It is hard to understand that there might be people living in NYC who don't give a hoot about RE. My partner is exactly like that. All he asks is that there be room for stuff, that things are "nice and new". Prewar/schme-war as far as he's concerned. Never even noticed ceiling heights or mouldings or things like that. Now, of course, he appreciates ceiling height.

When I had an "outside" job, I never paid that much attention to RE other than my own narrow search (at that point, it had to be Lincoln Centerish, and cheapest/sqft doorman building). So things evolve.

What is with the elevator operator in some of these buildings? I'm sure they are hold overs, but why can't they eliminate this? Do people actually like it? It seems way too intrusive, right?

AH: I think "hotels" were all across the board. Certainly, you read of people in the NYT staying on in a full-service hotel for years (I assume these had living rooms, but not necessarily Ks or maid's rooms as those f'ns were outsourced).

Some can't be gotten rid of, because of RC/RS tenants - the "same" level of service has to be maintained. In other 100% owned buildings, people actually like the elevator operators. I would hate it. In some small buildings, the doorman is also the elevator operator.

Thanks NWT - quite a few of those East Side Candela buildings are some of the most premier in the city - the rooms sizes are amazing (some of the duplexes even have back stairs!!!)

I don't know if any of the West Side buildings are quite like that - you're lucky enough to have that book so you probably know a lot about the various floorplans. Are any of the West Side Candela apartment layouts on that grand scale?

E.g., Museum Tower, which went up the '80s, had/has elevator operators. Haven't been in there in years, but there was a guy in each elevator, two at the door, and one at the desk. You get in, say hi, he says "Good evening", ride in silence, you say thanks as you leave. I guess it's partly a security thing.

Lobster ---- I'm sorry. It's just that I'm of a suspicious bent, and sometimes it gets out of control.
I was married forever to a Yale educated architect, and maybe I've foolishly forgotten that everyone doesn't know this stuff cold.
And the way you ask questions sometimes makes me suspect that you're doing an article or a book on this topic ............. as opposed to really shopping for a place for yourself ......
Forgive me. You are probably just a very nice person and I am almost certainly partially azzholish ........

Poorishlady, I'm tired of hearing comments like yours on this website. You think that I'm some sort of a journalist or whatever, I don't know. Your apology doesn't really sound like an apology- sort of your excuse for your comments. Let's just agree not to "talk" to each other anymore on SE because I'm losing patience for casual, hurtful comments like yours.

ph41, I can't think of anything on West Side that approaches 834 and 960 Fifth, 740 Park, etc. Closest would be the Beresford, 101 CPW, Eldorado, etc. There'll you'll see a 20x30 LR, but no 25x40, for instance. I guess even NYC could support only so many of those over-the-top buildings, and their locations had to be perfect for them to work. (And NYC couldn't support them all. 834 Fifth and a bunch of others were foreclosed upon in the Depression.)

Well, Lobster, you certainly win the earnest award for 2009. You are very, very earnest. Why is it hurtful that I conjectured you might be a journalist? That's not hurtful ........
But OK ----- we won't talk to each other anymore.

BTW, that Alpern book is available at a couple of local B&N stores. Go to bn.com, and do a search of NYC stores. You just saved 850 bucks.

I am leafing through said book right now. One building I like is 3E85 - small 9-story originally built with 1 11-room apt/flr - subdivided in '47 into 2 2-brs and 1 1-br. You never know, if I were able to buy 3 on one floor w/o premium, I might just move to the east side. Carpenter, 1913.

Poorishlady, I am sorry that I overreacted to your comment about you're being puzzled about my lack of knowledge about apartments. For the past week or so, I've been feeling that I've been asking too many questions on this website and that it would be better for me and everyone else if I just listened to everyone's comments for a while. Your remark made me realize that other people were aware of my lack of knowledge in this area. I'm not someone who needs to feel that they know more than others, but the fact that you sensed how uninformed I am in this area made me feel self-conscious. I do think that I should "listen" more and "question" less on SE and I will from now on.

Lobster: don't stop asking! At least your posts are RE-related. I've been an online forum junkie for 15 years (yeah, sad). You just have to toughen up. People ALWAYS sound harsher online than in real life.
You would love the Alpern book - I think there's a copy at one of the Eastside B&N stores.

Lobster - one suggestion - after the New Year when things slow down a little, why don't you go to the various areas you've now become interested in? (UWS - between 69th and 110th?) But go at all different times - morning, late night, as well as afternoon, so you get a better sense of the various neigbhorhoods, and your reactions to them.

Also, one other suggestion - try to start determining the things about an apartment that are most important to you and your husband - size, layout, location, ease of commute to work, proximity/ease of access to things you like to do in free time / rstaurants/ shops/ etc.

And again, NYC10023 made a valuable suggestions re: consideration of coop vs. condo, particularly as there are so few pre-war condos anywhere in the city.

Lobster- one other thing - try to remember that SE posters are trying to be helpful, but their priorities, likes and dislikes may be very different than your own (i.e. importance of schools and various districts when you have said that is not a concern for you.) Also, you've never mentioned the importance of being close to a park, so, while you very well might like that, try to factor in more of your own preferences as you search. This might actually initially increase the number of areas in the city that might work for you, and then you can narrow down the possibilities.

this is some good reading! i am in love with my new pre-war in the east village and have tried a few times to find some history on it. found one article from the times written in 1894 that tells about the nickel restaurant that operated there (55 avenue c).

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9D02E2DB1638E233A2575BC0A9679C94659ED7CF

any guidance on how to find more history? thanks!

Lobster - there are also a number of pre-war coops in the East 50s - from the sublime (River House, 4 Sutton Place) to the more "usual" (no super-grand) type of building. Oddly enough, on 57th street, if you're between 1st and Sutton it's very quiet because the bus doesn't go that far east, and there are some nice buildings there.

Great thread. I hate to inject a sad note, but some of the "renovations" in the UWS Candela buildings have wrecked the original beautiful layouts, gorgeous moldings, charming lobbies, etc.

Lobster- just noticed 444 East 57th - pre-war condo - with fireplaces

lobster - some people really are just, how do they say it, azzholes. others just "act out" due to lack of accountability when it comes to internet exchanges. this is a great forum to gather information, especially for RE novices (like myself).

uwsmom, and lobster, i'd hardly call you novices. real estate involves both renting and buying.

lobster, look at what you've done! you've created a lovely, informative thread. much of the information here is new, or at least not discussed often, so it's refreshing as well. post away.

Glamma, have you tried the city archives?
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/records/home.html

Also the NYPL has tons of records, although you may have to track down a librarian at the main branch (research library). You could try stopping in at the Ottendorfer location, I think they have a small collection of LES history although it might just be German language books. They're on 2nd Ave.

I love historical research, so let me know what you find or if you want help!

thanks evnyc!

Yes, this is an juicy thread for those of us who combine an interest in RE and history.

I know someone who lives in an RSD 1890s building with relief dectorative tile in the bathroom. Its gorgeous as are many other details of the apartment. Its a rental building and interestingly, I don't think it was ever built as "luxury" judging by the lobby, entrance etc. Not working class but truly in the middle. Many of the apartments would benefit from "loving restoration" (or gut renovation but the former would be way preferable) Unfortunately, that is not going to happen as long as it is a rental and the economics (even during the boom..let alone now) of bringing the structure to modern standards do not support condo/coop conversion.

Thanks to all of you for your kind encouraging words and I'm glad that so many of the posters here are enjoying this discussion.

I'd like to throw in a word for Christopher Gray here (who I once had the privilege of interviewing, and who was one of the coolest interviewees ever). His weekly "Streetscapes" column in the Times contains little nuggets of NYC history, and also sometimes will tell you why the features of a building are the way they are.

ali r.

liz, interesting. funny how sometimes neglect = preservation in ny.

"liz, interesting. funny how sometimes neglect = preservation in ny."

"Preservationists" actually use the term "benign neglect" as a positive all over the country.

In terms of prominent pre war architects, don't forget about Schwartz and Gross, who designed 924 WEA as well as 55 CPW (the building used in GHOSTBUSTERS).

Remember, you need to focus on pre-war built for middle/upper class.

There are plenty of pre-war apartments that were built as tenament or lower class housing. Many might have been spruced up and made cute, but could be missing much of what you want. I know a ton of old apartments in cute buildings with nice moldings that have thin floors/walls (often the latter coming from conversions). Many also have lousy layouts.

Add in the crappy heating systems, the inefficient windows, the outdated appliances, etc... and you can end up with a pretty lousy apartment.

I love a great pre-war.... but I'll take a nicely done modern over a lousy pre-war. If you spend enough, you get apartments built to give folks exactly what they're asking for. (of course, spend less and you get a white box thats a toss up for a lousy prewar)

Nan, yes, and S&G did 101 CPW too. In the '30s, with new building dried up, they did quite a few cut-ups on older buildings with too-big apartments.

Then there're all the architects who did great stuff but never really got a following with developers.

230 W 50th is one of my favorite pre-wars of all time. The guy also built 2 more like it, one on very east 57th, but 230 seems the most intact.

Underbuilt, so CRAZY amounts of light. Overlooks the gardens for many embassies. Has this open lobby which makes me feel like old school LA (weird, I know, but I get that feeling). The elevators let out on these extremely cute 2 door vestibules, all really well designed. Just a supernice building. I saw one so-so apartment, but a couple of the nicely renovated ones were just awesome.

And great casement windows (or at least metal sash grids).

Yeah, those old steel casements are great. When they're replaced (e.g., at 180 W 79th and 12 W 72nd) it throws the scale all off. 230 E 50th is another one with a pot off the kitchen: http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/73/3783073.gif.

Agreed... the buildings that are partially-replaced are the worst. Just looks awful. I don't know how the owners do that. Surprised the buildings don't stop them.

> 230 E 50th is another one with a pot off the kitchen:

Not that this makes it better if you live there, but thats not actually how its supposed to be... thats a maid's room! They just turned a lot of them into bathrooms. I believe in this layout, that large closet was actually a bathroom! Thats the reason the smaller bedroom has the bigger closet.

I definitely saw apartments with the maid's room intact (as an office, sometimes with a small bed), and then two bathrooms next to the bedrooms.

Nah, the A/B/D lines all had one bath between the two bedrooms. Then each had a lav off the kitchen, with the little windows you see from the street. In one of the recent sales the big closet was turned into a lav. The duplex C line did have a maid's room, IIRC, but I can't find the original plans now and the one Corcoran sold a few years ago was modified quite a bit.

I like a john off the kitchen. Very handy, especially as in this case where you can't get to a bath with going through a bedroom.

NWT, what i didn't care for in the downtown duplex was that the ONLY loo on the first floor was in the kitchen, without its own sink. as an additional plumbing source i think it's not bad, as you said it often becomes a WD closet or some such.