One More Ha-Ha Listing: The Challenge!

worth $400k at most.

$400,000. Really? Almost a half a million dollars for what they're claiming is 500 square feet, five floors up in a tenement?

Using the maximum 3x salary that was the norm until recently, you'd have to make $130,000 to afford this place at $400,000.

That's INSANE.

this is the best part:

"YES,IT'S A WALK-UP---5 FLIGHTS---CANCEL YOUR GYM MEMBERSHIP!!! BURN HUNDREDS OF CALORIES A DAY JUST LIVING HERE!-- "

look at how much you'll save by buying this piece of crap!

I call the Buy At Your Own Risk rules. BAYOR RULES!!! No matter what price you pay, in two years, you'll be sellin it for under 200. And btw, 550 sq ft must include air rights.

CC - too bad I have a bad knee, otherwise I'D BE THERE!

you should pay even more---not only can you avoid the gym $$ but free knee rehab as well.

Alas, where I live, which is nearly 3x the (actual) size of that apartment and costs about as much to live there, has a gym in the basement. Plus a doorman, concierge, 2 balconies, a commanding view of the Hudson....

I thought that in a coop it was not possible to advertise the sq ft

Yes, ft² can be advertised for a co-op, but it's even more approximate than for a condo. It's better to avoid mentioning it, which saves a lot of time at open houses arguing with some crackpot wielding a tape measure and disputing the method of measurement, the total arrived at, and so on.

E.g., of the 62 two-bedroom/two-bath co-ops listed by SE right now, only half cite ft².

As 30yrs said in one of these recurring threads, if after seeing a bunch of apartments you can't tell whether one runs small/average/big, you're in bad shape.

Oops, the 62 in 10023.

I never understood the importance placed on per-sq-ft pricing except for undeveloped land, and as metric for where the market is going. All I know is "bottom line" pricing for a small C6, medium C6, large C6, 2-bedrooms, 1-bedrooms, blabla adjusted upwards or downwards based on location in nabe, location in bldg, bldg (compared to peers), condition...

because it simplifies the process of comparison. it is not the be all, end all metric merely one that if presented honestly can be very helpful. small, medium and large can also work but is clearly much less objective.

sq ft is important especially when you are selecting the apts that you want to look at. I would bother to see a 1 bdr only if it's at least 700 sq ft. I understand and won't make a huge problem if it's 690 sq ft however it does happen that you see the same apt, same line, same floor plan, only different floor advertised for 750 sq ft from on broker and 695 from another...

Highend: I don't know the parameters of your search. But there are only so many ways postwar 1-brs (for example) can be/have been designed. Is it important whether an apt is 690 vs. 750 or even 800? I would look at the size & shape of LR, BR, kitchen and hallway. Hallway space I would not really pay for, so what if it's the long hallway that bumps up the "sq ft" to 800?

NYC10023, yes, it is extremely important. Obviously the hallway wouldn't be any help, but I've lived in a 600-sq apartment and an 800 sq-foot apartment. When you're talking about spaces that small, an extra 100 or 150 square feet really, really matters. A lot.

But not because you necessarily got a real 200 sqft extra, given the way these apts are measured. That's my point. Isn't it more useful to compare the actual size of the rooms (say, 12 X 20 vs. 12 X 25 LR and exposures - windows short side/long side)? And layout?

Layout matters, but a little box is a little box. And the only measurement I will ever use, no matter what developers try to pretend, is the interior wall-to-wall measurement. It is the only thing that counts and can be used to compare similar spaces.

nyc10023, I understand your point of view, but I don't see why as misrepresentation of the sq ft should be allowed. I don't have time to go and look at all the apts on the market, and I know that gross sq ft is only one parameter, but I would never bother to see a 600 sq ft 1 bdr. Brokers should post correct sq ft, in many cases they had some "problem" at closing...

Ev: if only brokers would ever give the "box" measurements. Nobody does, and that's why I think price/sqft is meaningless even for something that should be easily computable like a postwar 1br.

Highend: are all 1-brs truly fungible to you? I always find it much easier to narrow down to specific bldgs/streets?

p.s. I have one of those laser beam measuring devices. If there is any doubt, I just take it along and mark actual dimensions on the fp.

NYC10023, a few do, and wall to wall is all you can live in, and that you absolutely can measure. If it's 500 square feet and they're trying to sell it as 700, I might wind up looking if I'm in the area but I'll be basing my price on actual size, not inflated. A made-up extra 50 square feet at $1k a square foot is a huge difference in price!

nyc10023, for me it's important to have a correct sq ft since I am not planning on misrepresenting it when selling the apt and many buyers like me will look at the floor plan and at the total sq ft.
Total sq ft is important or brokers won't be taking any risk by inflating it

No other ha-ha listings out there?

Don't you think the listing at the top is sort of for a money-bags parent to buy for a kid? And don't such richies still exist?
Some rich kid about 18-25 would LOVE Tribeca AND the five flights up.
And he/she would have everything delivered by Fresh Direct and let the delivery guy hoof up five floors. And he/she wouldn't tip.
I say it'll sell: rich parent buying a place for the kid.

PL, wasn't your son living with in your co-op years ago, and isn't he still? You sound bitter.

This price is mostly a function of location, steve. You can laugh, but I'm not so sure this is quite "ha-ha" worthy, whatever that means.

"Plus a doorman, concierge, 2 balconies, a commanding view of the Hudson...."

You laugh at broker speak, yet engage in it yourself when it comes to your apartment. Now that is hilarious.

I didn't pay a broker to get my apartment, bjw. There was a $60 application fee.

You don't think it's ha-ha worthy to pay out of pocket as much for that 5th floor tenement trash as I pay for something 3x the size in a modern building with amenities.

Then I say make an offer!

Steve, a few things:

1) I believe your rent is $3,600, no? That's significantly more than this place. I'm pretty confident it could be had at $525k or less, but I'll give you $550. That's ~$3,000 a month. I don't think I need to tell you that adds up pretty quickly. You pay more.

2) Your apartment is definitely not 3x the size of this. You love to claim your place is 1200 sqft (though as others have pointed out, it's almost certainly not give the floorplan you provided), but even if we grant you hazy math, that is not equal to 3x550 (that would be 1650) by a longshot. Sorry.

3) It's ridiculous and childish (and self-serving, of course) for you to call this "tenement trash." Yes, it's a walkup, yes there are no real amenities to speak of, but as I said before, this location has you beat several times over, and the unit doesn't look half bad for what it is. To me, that explains the seemingly high price. I think poorishlady is spot on - this looks like a potential rich parent purchase. I have no interest in buying another place right now, but I don't get your incessant need to mock, especially when you have to distort reality to get there.

BJW, using your math, $3,000 a month for a 5th floor walk-up is a good deal?

A tenement will always be what a tenement is: trash.

Steve, I can appreciate your example of how expensive it is to buy so little in good areas of Manhattan, but you do stretch things a bit. You've said in another thread that in your new building they let you amortize the free months' rent over the term of your lease, which suggests to me that your nominal rent is not $3,600, but probaby $4K and change spread out over two years in equal payments with two free months' rent, which is a way to give you a renewal lease someday that will be $4K + change. By then you will have saved yourself over $20,000 and that's great for you. I agree with you the Tribeca unit is overpriced, but a better comparison for gloating would be something in Hell's Kitchen.

steve, I'm not saying it's a "good deal." I'm saying it's not nearly as hilarious as you think it is.

"A tenement will always be what a tenement is: trash."

Sorry, this is just a dumb and classless statement. Does not help your argument in any way.

"You've said in another thread that in your new building they let you amortize the free months' rent over the term of your lease, which suggests to me that your nominal rent is not $3,600, but probaby $4K and change spread out over two years in equal payments with two free months' rent"

Is this true? If so, that's just laughable. I've always given you the benefit of the doubt, Steve, because you have shown integrity when it comes to (most) data in the past, but this is too much.

"but this is too much"

Really?

No, the nominal rent is what is on my lease, & it's just over $3,600. Hardly the same as one free month, where the nominal rent would be over $3,900. So when my rent is renegotiated in 2 years, the starting point is $3,600.

bjw,

I live near this apartment. One of the greatest things about Tribeca (other than the family oriented neighborhood) are the large open spaces that can be hard to find in other parts of NYC. I tend to think that people pay a premium to have space - not to live in a 550 sq ft converted studio walk-up.

You do realize that this space probably went for a couple hundred per sq ft just a couple of years ago - and now they are asking over $1000/sq ft? I guess that is what happens during the biggest real estate boom that NYC has ever seen - but it doesn't make this space a "deal" of any sort - even when you look at the monthlies.

Put it this way, I live in the same area and pay more or less twice as much for nearly 4 times the space.

This apt is just another example (among many many many others) that the NYC real estate market is completely out of wack - if you care about rent/own ratios. But as you and PL stated, if some "so rich it doesn't matter" family comes along and buys this place for their kid, then rent/own ratios and market comps don't matter.

I'm not going to research the thread where you said that about amortizing, steve, but it was in advising others to check out your new building.

Listen, steve, I share your point of view on the markets and always have; I just think you are overstating the case often and boxing yourself into a corner. Since it helps your own value balancing process to compare your present digs to a coop in Tribeca, you might be able to allow that other people do comparisons of, for instance, buying in Chelsea v. buying in LICC, renting in UES versus buying in Wmbg. I also recall you stating most times your Chelsea rent was $4500, until once in a thread your "former" Chelsea rent was actually more like $4,600. The fact that someone has rented your former pad just shows that the market is not determined solely by what it's worth to you, so I'd agree with you that $575K seems too high for a little Tribeca walkup coop, but neither you nor I represent the sum total of the market.

I understand your conviction the market must return to a pit in exactly the same fashion as the last boom/bust, but if you wait until a 2br/2bath condo in HK with two balconies and a gym is priced so that mortgage + cc + taxes equal $3,600 on the button, it might never happen. Something a little more modest in size and amenities in an equally good area? I think you'll get it.

"I tend to think that people pay a premium to have space - not to live in a 550 sq ft converted studio walk-up."

memito, not to get snarky, but this is Manhattan, where people pay a premium to simply live here. Space is, for many, a secondary issue, crazy as that sounds. If you're young and single, but can't afford a huge loft in Tribeca, I can see why this might appeal to you.

"You do realize that this space probably went for a couple hundred per sq ft just a couple of years ago - and now they are asking over $1000/sq ft? I guess that is what happens during the biggest real estate boom that NYC has ever seen - but it doesn't make this space a "deal" of any sort - even when you look at the monthlies."

I don't think it did - no record of sales for this place in the recent past that I can see.

"But as you and PL stated, if some "so rich it doesn't matter" family comes along and buys this place for their kid, then rent/own ratios and market comps don't matter."

I never said they don't matter. I agree that most real estate in this city is overpriced - I just don't understand what makes this particular unit stand out (especially given the clear distortion of facts) to the OP.

"Something a little more modest in size and amenities in an equally good area? I think you'll get it."

Why should I pay more to own than to rent, when owning is riskier? In truth, the normal situation is the opposite: it must be cheaper to own than to rent not only because of the risk, but because that's the only way new rental units will be built: it has to be cheaper to own them than to rent them.

"where people pay a premium to simply live here"

Historically it's more expensive to live in a city than in the country, but no more expensive to own or to rent.

I realize "this is Manhattan", but every neighborhood is priced for a certain reason (or sets of reasons).

My point is that Tribeca isn't priced simply b/c of "great restaurants" and the such, but because it is a part of the city where you can live in large, open spaces. Many Tribeca lofts are priced in the $800-$1200 range because there are few of them available in the entire city.

Meanwhile, there are a TON of smaller converted studios available citywide - including in Tribeca and nearby "hipper" neighorhoods - such as SoHo, the Villages and the Lower East Side. Those are the places where I could see a seller placing a "premium" on a smaller space that could be picked up by some trust fund kid. But I don't know why a spoiled kid would like to live in Tribeca - other than a off-beat place to host coke parties....

As for previous sales - and I realize there is no history - you have to understand that studios like this used to trade far below $500/sq ft, but then the bubble took place and suddenly everything in Tribeca went above $1200+ for a while. Doesn't mean it is even remotely a "value" at that price....

The point is that this 550sq ft (which is probably an exaggeration) space has priced itself as if it is a 2000 sq ft loft. That just doesn't make sense.

"Why should I pay more to own than to rent, when owning is riskier?"

Don't, then. Some people weigh the risk of future rent increases, which you are convinced won't happen. That's your balance. People make tradeoffs in different ways. I wouldn't trade a large 2-br rental for a $575K studio walkup either.

btw, I checked the ellington's web page for availabilities of 2brs:

http://www.rosenyc.com/No-Fee-Rental/The-Ellington.aspx

So $3,795/mo for 20A and $3,950 for 28E. It's the C line that has two balconies, a more interesting floor plan. My calculations show with one month free rent per 12-month lease period, a typical concession to new tenants in this type of building, would yield an effective net rent of $3,620.83 for 28E. A very good deal since some small 1brms were fetching near that in 2007 in other buildings, but not the same as LLs lowering rents on their prime 2br layouts to $3,600.

That's about right, lowery. And they will grant you a 2-year lease at that nominal rent. And I live in the C line.

AND I LOVE IT!

That is, lowery, my lease says the rent is $3,620.83, not $3,950.

As the resident curmudgeon on this board, I wanted to hate the apartment. But I don't actually *hate* it -- it's actually quite lovely, albeit VERY small.

$400K would be more appropriate. The fact that you walk directly into the kitchen is a huge drawback, as is the closet-sized "bedroom" that can BARELY fit a bed.

And when will New Yorkers finally end their obsession with white walls??

That's good, steve - the way other LLs have done these "free months" deals is to write the $3,950 into the lease and then charge you $0 for the one or two months, at the end of the lease, of course.

So that is a new move on the road down. However, they can offer you whatever they want after 2 yrs for a renewal. It's just a crap shoot. Good luck with that.

Matt, I hate white walls too.

You know, color on the walls in tiny apartments actually makes the space look BIGGER, because it helps to define separation between rooms.

I love the blue countertop and white cabinets in the kitchen -- but add in the white walls with the white floors, and it looks antiseptic. I would paint the other two walls in the kitchen a nice and breezy light sky blue, or, tying in the exposed brick, a nice rust or terra cotta color.

There's no way to hide the fact that the bedroom is really a closet, so have fun with the size and paint it a nice dark color: Brown. Navy. Purple. Or a deep, dark emerald green. Make it feel like you're tucking yourself inside a jewelry box! Hell, the room is so small you could get really creative and go all the way with the jewelry box motif for little cost and cover the walls with a nice deep velvet!

Paint the dressing area a different color than the living room. If you're going to do a dark color in the bedroom, keep the dressing area lighter, to enhance the contrast.

Personally, I'd paint the living room a nice historic color like Bryant Gold or sage green.

it IS a railroad flat, after all

Rethinking the price. Will probably move at $300-$350K. 500 sq ft at $600-700/sq ft. Kitchen seems to be in ok condition. Bathroom picture is not shown which probably means that it is not in good condition. The locations is desirable. Considering the current median price of $1200-1300 for high end property with renovation. Reduce $300 a sq ft for renovation. Another $300 a sq ft for the walk-up and a building being uninspiring.

Found another one:

http://corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1889202

For a 5th floor walk-up, with more still to walk up to get to the bedroom.

HAHAHAHAHA!

looks like nice outdoor space

"http://corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1889202"

Lovely home, but unfortunately, as is becoming increasingly common in New York City, there's no living room -- just a big annexed area of the kitchen to put living room furniture.

But it does have its own laundry facilities.

Definitely worth $750K.

So, NYCM - you're thinking a 50% haircut?

I don't see $750k for a 5th floor walk-up. Whatever it is, however nice they make it, it's ALWAYS 5 flights up.

Six to the bathroom.

Oh geez ... I didn't see the part about the walk-up. But there's a bathroom off the Great Kitchen!

Yeah - a shower in the kitchen!

What's the difference between that and the bathtub there in a tenement?

And - there's no way it's 1263 square feet, unless they count the roof deck.

The ideal price is just to chop the 1 off the front of it. They MIGHT get that.

But it's just like the interlocked E/F duplexes at River House! Your bedrooms over the neighbor's living room, and theirs over yours.

It's quite a bit of profit they're expecting, too: everybody else is down to 2006 prices, yet they bought the place in 2006 for $1,114,983.

They're expecting a 30% profit. They should be looking for a $700,000 loss.

BHS had the same listing in March 2009 for $1,650M, I guess now it's a good deal..

The original listing was $1,795,000:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/470088-condo-234-west-20th-street-chelsea-new-york

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

LICC - how do you see the tax benefit working out for this one?

no less than $7,600/month with 20% down and if you qualify for that mortgage I guess you will have minimal tax benefits.
how much this could be rented for, $5,000?

Without the outdoor space, how do they get 1,263sf? Indoor sf are about 750sf at most, even with the most generous outside wall standards.

Rent = $2,500 at most.

There's nothing that nice in Chelsea for $2,500. This place looks very done and clean, and although it's a walk-up, I'm sure they could find someone to pay $3,500 for it.

Okay, fine, $3,500. How does that jive with the original $1.795 million asking price?

The original asking price was insanely high, even at peak froth. The place looks charming, it has outdoor space, but it's still a 4th floor walk-up and pretty small for a 2 bedroom. They pretty paid as much as anyone would have paid for such a place. I would think nowadays they'd be lucky to get $900,000 for a sale or $4,500 in rent. I don't really understand why they are lying about the size, unless it works sometimes.

You couldn't pay me to move in.

And it's a FIFTH floor walk-up, seven to the roof deck.

Tired yet?

The market is the sum of individual preferences. I think some people would choose this fifth floor walkup over your apartment, because of the location and the charm. But that wasn't the point! The point was that it's a laughable asking price, and it was well-made. I searched for 2br/2bth condos with outdoor space, and found something pretty similar in Nolita for $849,000 @ 165 Elizabeth street. You should find comparable listings, rather than compare to your rental, which only illuminate your choice, not the market.

Are you impotent? What's with the constant dick references? Fuck that's an annoying shtick.
Anyway, you are contradicting yourself. "All else equal" I completely agree a doorman is a clear plus, thanks for the amazing insight.

Give me 5 minutes I'll let you know.

It's hard as nails. I'm good. Thxs maly.

And maly, back on pt, itz a fifth floor walkup. Ie maybe super? Maybe not. Back in the days 5th floor walkups were where ppl were robbed/raped, 5th fl walkups were for young colllege kids with no money, 5th fl walk ups mean going to corner laundromat and hanging out with the 'hoodies', 5th ... You may not realize how fded up NYC re mkt has gotten with the bubble but plz don blow smoke up my azz and tell me it's good for me honey.

Not only is it not that big, it's in a tenement that they appear to have landed a spaceship on. I guess in case of fire you have to jump from the bridge down to the fire escape.