Sale at 173 Riverside Drive #1011B

Between 1100 and 1200, because the building is so good. Indirect river views? Not really, unless you lean out the window; but the views to the south are OK because the other side of 89th is built very low.

The heir showed me this apartment before listing it. I wish her well. The family lived at 173 for over fifty years. Lots of history, and lots of obsolescence. Needs everything.

West81st what other RSD buildings would you say are comporable to 173-175 RSD?

50, 90, 110-118, and possibly 180.

thanks for the input W. 81st

"comporable" is a tough question -- 173-175 is perhaps unmatched on RSD as far as BOTH services and apartment "quality" -- (proprtionality, orientation, room arrangement, etc). However, I would add 140 RSD to West 81st's list as far as service. As far as apartment "quality," I would add 404 RSD and 190 RSD.

rsm321 makes an important point: Although the other buildings I mentioned are wonderful in their own ways, 173-175 is somewhat unique. It's a Carpenter building (think East Side grandeur) in what was until very recently a low-key, upper-middle-class neighborhood. Most RSD buildings don't even have eight-room apartments, let alone the river-facing nines ("D" and "F") and natural duplexes ("B") you see at 173-175. I've seen nice combinations at 90, 110/118 and elsewhere, but there's nothing like the real thing.

Quite right about 190, too.

what do you think about the intrinsic value of grand rsd apartments with no river view? many drawbacks to the location offset by great view...without the view, wouldn't you much rather be on WEA?

Even without the river view, there are some advantages to RSD. The light is often excellent -- something quite difficult to come by on WEA -- and, of course, it's quieter than WEA with closer proximity to the park. Then again, it's also windy, and further from the retail and subways along Broadway. Still, in the "value heirarchy," light and views (even if not river views) trump a whole lot!

Tough to price large (7rm+) apts on RSD with no river view, cc. If only because large apartments tend to have views, and small (6rms or less) tend not to. The market has reflected this in the past, once we were past the bubble. One example that comes to mind (which I liked and could have lobbied my partner to go for) was the 11-room potential combo at 50RSD (large rooms, unpainted-over mouldings, original features, not-bad combo layout). I suppose one could price based on similarly situated and sized WEA apts with open city and side-ish river views. Also hard to price duplex apartment on the UWS because they are comparatively rare. I would say that this apt is worth less than a simplex 8 with similar room rizes and is also hurt by the narrow maid's room. If that maid's were 10', then it is more of a legitimate bedroom. Maybe comparable to the 8-room (or was it 9?) room line at 325WEA?

I think the heir/ess dropped the ball on this one. Should have priced it with a 2-handle to get interest. Haven't we seen that it is almost impossible to underprice nice apts?

There are many bldgs to love on RSD, I am fond of the pre-prewar bldgs such as 258, for example. 194 - 190 is also pre-prewar, I think.

But in terms of both location and grandeur, I think 173 hard to beat.

nyc10023: Many good points there, but with regard to the starting price on #10B, the owner doesn't live in NYC, and relied on the advice of a well-regarded Halstead team. It's possible that they "bought the listing" with an unrealistic price. I don't think that was their intent, and in any case there was really no way for the owner to know.

based on your earlier description, safe to say $500K + for refurb?

More than $500k...

$200/ft assuming no crazy finishes but co-op hours and demolition adds to that. Plus the carry time...

I agree with NYC10023 that it should have started with a "2". Based on the condition I think $1,100/ft is too generous as West81 suggests. Closer to $1,000 considering the work involved. Total and complete gut.

Looks like that maid's room bath can be moved to where one of those hallway closets is. That would make it less skinny and a decent guest bedroom.

Depends on how you want your reno to go, and how involved you want to be. If all you want to do is provide creative input and get a turnkey reno, yep 200/sqft. Could certainly get it done for under 100/sqft.

I guess you aren't bringing up new electrical then -- you don't have anywhere near modern amp needs. Or new windows. Southern exposure: I'd put in central AC.

Still doesn't bump you from 100 to 200/sqft. It all depends on how you structure the job. If the GC is handling all the orders, all the subs, absolutely, you could spend 500k in a blink. As KW and others have said, you take on more risk if you deal with subs directly (say for windows, heat/AC) but you'd also save huge on $$$.

The big problem there, considering who'd go for this kind of place, is the bedroom and bath layout upstairs.

In the original plan, the middle and master bedrooms shared a bath. Wouldn't fly now. The middle bedroom has since lost its door to the bath, so has to go through bedroom #3 to get to bath #2.

I'd make a new master bath at the window end of the maid's suite, where there're plumbing stacks in two or more walls, and turn the remainder into a dressing room. That'd get you the huge master suite people want now, with each of the other two bedrooms having its own bath.

NWT: Exactly. I think that's the approach Halstead has proposed too.

300 WEA sold for less than the asking price here and that apartment is about 1000 square feet larger. 300 WEA is also at least as good a building.

Whathappened: If you're looking for comps in other buildings, I don't think you need to venture a mile to the southeast. 610 WEA is probably a better fit, since it's a natural duplex, although it only needed minor work. Both 610 and 300 were low-floor apartments. so 173 has a big light/air/noise edge on both.

What: are you talking about 4A/5A/5B? Are you aware that the higher floor B-line will probably close for much higher? Just saying.

As those of you who are regular streeteasy readers know, I come from downtown, and just moved to the UWS and am trying to learn it .. if this apartment is truly capable of becoming one of the finest apartments in one of the finest buildings in the area .. well, I wish I loved it more.

I have a strong bias against duplexes and this one is no different.. I just don't understand, with this layout, how you can have *both* live-in help and ensure privacy to the master. If you leave it as is, then the nanny walks through the baby's room to go to the bathroom; if you make NWT's switch (which I think is a good one) then the nanny's bathroom is backed right up against you.

I guess you could forgo help and have the middle bedroom become the home office and put an older child downstairs, but is anyone spending $3mm going to live that way? two older children? it feels like a very specific needle to thread.

This hypothetical of children is by no means meant to be a violation of the Fair Housing Act, but experienced UWS-ers, feel free to walk me through it.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali: No servant's quarters upstairs in the proposed scenario, as I understand it. The second and third BRs, with en-suite baths, belong to the kids. If a maids's room is needed, there are a couple of options for creating one downstairs, though all have disadvantages.

NYC10023: It would be possible to do the renovation economically, but I doubt that will happen. On the other hand, I don't think the renovation cost hits the purchaseprice as hard with such a unique property as it would for a more generic apartment where most people would just say, "Who needs the hassle? We'll just buy the place down the hall."

FP: this will never be the finest or second finest line or 3rd or 4th (W81 knows the bldg better) line in this building.

IMO, the biggest knock against this apt is not the duplex nature or the square footage but layout and proportions. If only ... the maid's room were a couple feet wider, if only the master bed had its own bath, with the other bath a jack and jill or common access through the hall. If only the powder room/bath downstairs were not off the library. If only the kitchen were a little wider. All these things mean that it will sell for cheaper than an equivalent sized and situated apt with better proportion. For instance, the duplex at 610WEA has a MUCH better layout.

I run with the breeding types on the UWS, and live-in help is not as prevalent as you might think. At the end of the day, with the exception of some market niches, people like their babysitters to go home.

Another useful data point just came in: The ~3500 sq.ft. duplex at 333 WEA sold for $5.27MM.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/405879-coop-333-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york

nyc10023: I agree that 610 WEA is superior to the subject. I was just pointing to it as a better comp than a simplex on 74th St. With regard to the lines at 173-175, you're right that "B" is well down the list. (Note that the plan changes around the sixth floor.) I don't think I've even been in an original "C", the big apartment on the corner of 89th and Riverside. IIRC, it's even bigger than "D" and "F". "E" has great views, but it's much smaller. So the "B" duplexes probably price out fourth in the building.

The C has four bedrooms plus an 11'x22' study. The three baths aren't ideally allocated between those five, but lots of possibilities, and I'm sure they manage somehow.

I remember that 333WEA staircase from when it first came up. That handrail work was big money. Looks as if the place got multiple bids once they dropped it below the magic number.

I saw the duplex at 333WEA. Beautiful renovation, the staircase was a little Home-McMansiony for me. I am surprised that it went to K with relative speed. In general, I don't like cobbled-together apts. Fine at lower numbers if you want to maximize space rel. to price, but at 5m+, there are other options, no? But 10rm+ apts are rare on the UWS. The agent at 333 emphasized that never would a duplex combo be allowed by the board, so it was a one-off.

I have the fp for the C-line at 173, it has one extra room over its neighbor. If I had a quibble, the mbr has the best view, which seems wasteful. I've never seen one on the market. Have you, NWT?

nyc10023: I think the ten-room "C" floorplan only existed on about ten floors - maybe less - and some of them may have been divided. If there has been a full "C" available in the past ten years, it was handled quietly. BTW, I don't know 173 as well as 175. When I was growing up, there was less interaction between the two sides of the building, because there were fewer shared amenities.

11 if you count the servants' hall. Charming terminology.

While 300 WEA is south of the subject apartment, it is prime UWS and one of the best buildings on the UWS. Like the subject apartment, the 300 WEA apts needed a total gut. Everyone is correct that the 4 and 5 apts in 300 WEA are on lower floors, BUT those apartments are 1000 SF BIGGER. Is the difference between 5th floor and 10th floor worth 1000 SF of space? It cannot be.

I don't think 610 WEA 2A needed a total gut, did it?

Is calling something "servant's . . ." even PC anymore?