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Further Slide Seen in N.Y. Commercial Real Estate - NY Times

Started by thedeuce
about 16 years ago
Posts: 103
Member since: Feb 2009
Discussion about
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/nyregion/08commercial.html?hp January 8, 2010 Further Slide Seen in N.Y. Commercial Real Estate By CHRISTINE HAUGHNEY There are 920 football fields of available office space in Manhattan. More than 180 major buildings totaling $12.5 billion in value — from Columbus Tower at 1775 Broadway to the office tower 400 Madison Avenue — are in trouble, meaning in many... [more]
Response by tina24hour
about 16 years ago
Posts: 720
Member since: Jun 2008

It's the worst it's been in all Peter Von Der Ahe's many years in real estate. Thank heavens the reporter found him. Who else among us can remember back as far as 1998?

What I like about this article is that, despite the above, it actually does give a decent gloss of what the recovery in commercial real estate will look like, and how long it might reasonably take. Perhaps because the commercial collapse is lagging behind the residential one, the predictions are not as hyperbolically apocalyptic. Less doom, more gloom. That seems healthy and reasonable to me.

Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

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Response by julia
about 16 years ago
Posts: 2841
Member since: Feb 2007

How does commercial real estate affect residential real estate prices?

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Response by marco_m
about 16 years ago
Posts: 2481
Member since: Dec 2008

in NYC commercial and residential go hand in hand. If office space is vacant that means less people working and less people renting or buying bottom line.

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Response by thedeuce
about 16 years ago
Posts: 103
Member since: Feb 2009

at some point they should also become substitutes. lots of current-day residential buildings are renovated office/warehouse/hotels/etc. if the commercial market is relatively weaker than residential, developers can capitalize on the differential by purchasing distressed commercial and re-purposing into residential. if the price psf plus renovation costs make sense, it should happen. and then more and cheaper residential rentals or condos on the market. i haven't personally heard of any recent commercial transactions of this sort but will be watching for it.

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Response by marco_m
about 16 years ago
Posts: 2481
Member since: Dec 2008

FiDi is a great example of how that conversion at work

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Response by sidelinesitter
about 16 years ago
Posts: 1596
Member since: Mar 2009

From the article: "He predicts that by 2011, the value of New York metropolitan area office buildings will decline by 58 percent from its late 2007 peak. It is already down 40 percent."

vs.

From tina24hour: "Perhaps because the commercial collapse is lagging behind the residential one, the predictions are not as hyperbolically apocalyptic."

Extra, extra, read all about it!! Real estate broker says residential market is down more than 40%. Commercial market, down only 40%, lags. Now that's a headline.

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Response by aboutready
about 16 years ago
Posts: 16354
Member since: Oct 2007

thedeuce, hotels are doing horribly. that is an area that is particularly easy for conversion, given the abundance of plumbing available. whatever happened to the Jasper, the condo turned hotel turned condo turned hotel? the one with that sultry ad featuring a barely-clad woman and lots of steam? oh, those were the days. when shvo reigned supreme.

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Response by malthus
about 16 years ago
Posts: 1333
Member since: Feb 2009

Some day, yes. But I don't see too many lenders handing out money for conversion projects in this market.

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Response by malthus
about 16 years ago
Posts: 1333
Member since: Feb 2009

Krugman has a chart up on the (national) relationship between commercial real estate and housing that shows the lag time as well over the last decade.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/cre-ative-destruction/

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Response by w67thstreet
about 16 years ago
Posts: 9003
Member since: Dec 2008

Thk you sls. Holy crap. Her stmt makes me what to hit a puppy.

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Response by aboutready
about 16 years ago
Posts: 16354
Member since: Oct 2007

malthus, likely not. but when we look ahead we've already got product in the pipeline after we've absorbed what we think is there. and at some point whoever has possession of these projects will want to do something with them.

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Response by malthus
about 16 years ago
Posts: 1333
Member since: Feb 2009

True that. But lots of distressed condos to chew through first.

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Response by sidelinesitter
about 16 years ago
Posts: 1596
Member since: Mar 2009

"Thk you sls. Holy crap. Her stmt makes me what to hit a puppy."

it is wrong to hit puppies. you should limit yourself to hitting brokers

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Response by apt23
about 16 years ago
Posts: 2041
Member since: Jul 2009

malthus: interesting chart. also interesting that the housing market blipped "up" in the last six months while CRE continued the cliff dive in the last six months. Interesting that the "professionals" are still in bail mode as opposed to the layman housing buyer. Time will tell whether the last six month blip up in housing will come to be known as the lemming factor.

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Response by aboutready
about 16 years ago
Posts: 16354
Member since: Oct 2007

years of mastication.

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Response by sidelinesitter
about 16 years ago
Posts: 1596
Member since: Mar 2009

"How does commercial real estate affect residential real estate prices?"

The cause and effect is generally not direct (exception - some linkage over the long-term via conversions as discussed above), but the two are affected by many of the same macro drivers. Interest rates, GDP/employment/income, etc. In that regard, there was an interesting comment is this article (published the same day as the one that spawned this thread) - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/business/global/08chanos.html?scp=1&sq=chanos&st=cse - that “bubbles are best identified by credit excesses, not valuation excesses.” It seems to me that the withdrawal of credit has hurt the Manhattan commercial market much more severely to date than it has the Manhattan residential market (despite tina24hour's claim to the contrary). With the Fed meddling more aggressively in the residential mortgage market than in any other sector of fixed income (buying every mortgage security in sight, etc.), this is perhaps to be expected. However, it begs the question of whether current residential prices still reflect only a partially deflated bubble because the Fed has simply stepped into the shoes of the securitization market to provide an alternate source of excess credit. Personally I think both availability and price of credit for residential real estate are skewed by current policy, with the result that valuations are held above levels that the market would set on its own. Presumably this is in fact the point of the policy, as part of the kick-the-can-down-the-road (or "extend and pretend" or whatever you prefer to call it) strategy for rehabbing the capital base of the financial sector.

“Bubbles are best identified by credit excesses, not valuation excesses"

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Response by sidelinesitter
about 16 years ago
Posts: 1596
Member since: Mar 2009

sorry for double post of the quote there

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