Washington Heights

1. Stay west of Broadway.

2. Try to stay above 168th Street. The housing stock is pretty crappy from 145th to 168th, even west of Broadway (and don't even consider EAST of Broadway). After you pass the mammoth hospital (New York-Presbyterian), things start getting nice above 168th. Things start getting REALLY nice above 181st, in the area of Washington Heights called "Hudson Heights".

3. East of Broadway, there are ton of Dominican stores and restaurants. The food in these restaurants ranges from crappy to ethnic five star. Most of the "independent" stores, however, sell crap. One huge exception: hardware stores. They're amazing. You can find everything and anything. And if one store doesn't have exactly what you need, the owner will refer you to his brother's store two blocks away. You'll never go to Home Depot again. Unfortunately, for just about EVERYTHING else (clothing, housewares, etc.), you will be trekking either back downtown, or taking the 1 train a few stops up into the Bronx to the nearby Target.

4. West of Broadway, there are some pretty decent dining options, particularly up on 181st Street. There's also Coogan's on 169th and Broadway, a huge Irish pub/restaurant that makes bank with the executive lunch rush crowd from the hospital. There's a great diner on the corner of 181st and Fort Washington, along with a very good Japanese restaurant and another "pub" that makes great food and has live entertainment. Further up, on 187th, there are more (and better) dining options.

5. Grocery stores. This is where it's preferable to be above 181st Street. There's an uber-crappy Gristede's on 170th and Broadway. Big, but very limited selection. And check the date on any and all refrigerated/frozen food you buy there. At least 50% of the time it's expired. There are 24/7 bodegas all along Broadway that sell absolute crap. Seriously. Use them only for buying ice, bottled soft drinks, and toilet paper. There's an amazing 24/7 bodega on 181st between Ft. Washington and Pinehurst called "Jin's Superette". Their food is wonderful, they have great selection (lots of organic and healthy options), and believe it or not, they're cheaper than Gristede's. There's also an Associated on Ft. Washington near 187th, and an amazing food mart that sells quite a bit of organic on 187th, Frank's Market. But unless you live close to these better grocery stores, your best bet is Fresh Direct. Particularly if you live in a walk-up.

6. Night life. As described above, there's a place on 181st that features live music, and there are a couple other hopping cafe types in the 187th Street area. There's also a gay bar on Broadway and 177th -- but the crowd there is best described as "urban thug". That's good if you're into that kind of thing. Coogan's has theme nights (karaoke, bingo, etc.). Unfortunately, however, most everyone still heads downtown to socialize.

7. The A train, when it's running properly (express), is amazingly fast. You can get from 181st Street to Columbus Circle in 12 minutes flat (after boarding the train, of course). Chelsea is 20 minutes away. On the weekends, however, it's a completely different story when the A runs local. Interestingly enough, it's not the A running local that takes so damn much time ... it's the fact that WHEN it's running local, particularly at night, there are only TWO trains per hour (every 30 minutes) as opposed to NINE trains per hour (about every 7 minutes). I've actually timed it -- once you're ON the train, the difference between the A running local versus express from West 4th Street to 181st Street, believe it or not, is only 12 minutes. What takes so damn long is the 30 minute wait on the platform. If you've missed the train by 5 seconds, you've just missed it by a half-hour (I suppose this is what the LIRR and Metro-North crowd feels like). I'm not going to sugar-coat it: on the weekends, at nights, the subway thing is a royal PAIN. IN. THE. ASS. (And I haven't even discussed those particularly fun weekends when the A *terminates* at 168th Street, and you have to take a shuttle bus to continue further uptown.) Because of the two-A-trains-per-hour-when-running-local thing, on the weekends I find myself taking the 1 train instead: it's local (of course, so is the A), but at least, even in the middle of the night, they come more frequently than the A.) If getting home quickly is important to you, stock your wallet with extra 20s; cab fare from Chelsea to WaHi runs about $30.

8. The neighborhood itself is quite beautiful. The topography is interesting -- very hilly. There are a lot of parks, so plenty of green space. If you're a fan of architecture, you won't be disappointed -- WaHi has some of the most gorgeous prewar construction and detailing you'll see in New York.

9. Demographics. West of Broadway, you'll be seeing much of what USED to make up the Upper West Side, before real estate prices got out of control: teachers, university professors, researchers, writers, editors, musicians, actors. There are a lot of families up here, mostly because you get a lot of square footage for your housing dollar, but also because much of these amazingly generous prewar layouts are still intact and have never been subdivided into studios and 1-bedrooms. (One of my favorite stories: I was having dinner at a friend's apartment for the first time, and was amazed at the size of his rooms. His bedroom was 22 feet by 13 feet! His roommate's bedroom -- the "small" bedroom -- was 17 x 15! He had a huge living room, and eat-in kitchen, and -- weirdly -- TWO "dining rooms". I couldn't figure it out ... the one dining room he used as a den, and the other dining room we were using (which was about 15 x 15, with enough room for a table seating eight as well as a sofa and reading area) was off the living room. I asked him why he had two dining rooms. He laughed and said "Oh, my DEN is the dining room. We're actually in the FOYER.")

10. To sum up -- if you stay west of Broadway, you can find amazing space in a gorgeous prewar (either buying or renting) for a very good price. It's a true residential "neighborhood" that you can feel comfortable calling home, and there are enough amenities that you don't really need to leave WaHi. However, the distance IS isolating, and you may find yourself being the one who always goes downtown to meet the rest of your "crowd", rather than the crowd coming to you. If your work and social life is west of Fifth, however, coming and going is relatively quick and easy with the A and the 1 trains. However, if you work or socialize on the East Side, think very carefully about moving up to WaHi -- in addition to the north-south schlep, you'll be adding the additional west-east schlep. Getting to the Upper East Side from WaHi can easily take 90 minutes, versus less than 30 minutes to TriBeCa.

Good luck.

Matt - you may get roasted here for other things you post, but this one was amazingly informative and truly useful for anyone interested in the area (or even for those of us who just like to find out about all the great neighborhoods in NY)

"Are there restaurants or cafes in walking distance or will every outing require a "

There is stuff, but it is limited. A good friend is on 170th, and its the same couple of places every time, to where we stopped meeting up there, and we'll hang near work before he goes home.

You're covered for "needs", but expect to leave the neighborhood often to stay sane.

GREAT apartments and deals though.... he had a prewar GIANT one bedroom with dining room $1200. I think he worked with the landlord and got a 2 bedroom version for nearly the same price.

matt, excellent review!

Thanks. I had no idea how long my post was until I hit "reply"!

matt that could indeed be submitted to Wikipedia :)

I live on Edgecombe and W.160th so I disagree with stick West of Broadway. Edgecombe is quite nice, lots of trees and straddles a fairly high cliff/high bridge park. 160th between Jumel and Edgecombe has the "Jumel Mansion", George Washington's NY headquarters during the revolutionary war, which is now a museum.

What I like about being below 161st is a slightly less disconnected feeling, I can walk 12 minutes to 145th Street/Edgecombe and be at my gym(a new NYSC).C train is at 163rd/St.Nicholas and 1 train is at 158th and Broadway and an easy cycle to Central Park or the Hudson promenade(where you can enter at 158th and ride to the Battery). We also have a car and street parking on Edgecombe is a breeze (new Honda Fit, no break ins). The car definitely makes life easier for us, 5 minutes to Fairway with its own parking lot and spontaneous trips to the UWS or Village don't even get a second thought. On that note if you leave the city on weekends its super easy via the GWB via Amsterdam ave (no cross Bronx).

I spent 20 years living in the Village and continue to work there quite a bit, so I had/have my fill. I left for similar reasons, in search of space and less overhead.I would not have been happy up here in my 20's and 30's as I did all my socializing downtown. Now we are quite happy in our large prewar two bedroom with great light and character and a great group of neighbors!

Of course as Matt points out West of bway is very nice, but not the only choice. Corcoran actually has a large house for sale on 158th and Riverside that looks very cool. Go to Malecon for chicken(Bway.175th) or Mama Juana for some "upscale" Dominican comida.

EL P ... nuff said... not alpine... the original El P

"Corcoran actually has a large house for sale on 158th and Riverside that looks very cool"

i know! in the listing though. we went by to check it out and really disappointed us. it looks like it's gonna fall apart, has 0 privacy and no light during the afternoons. but online it's just fabulous.

Thanks to everyone and particularly to NYCMatt. I see a lot of listings in the buildings at 779 through 807 RSD. Are they worth looking at or are they like that large house (fabulous online but disappointing in person)?

OK, here's the deal with Riverside Drive in Washington Heights: it's beautiful, but extremely isolated. You're not really within convenient walking distance to anything, and those areas that you CAN walk to by and large are pretty crappy; below 168th Street is still pretty much no man's land.

And you certainly wouldn't want to be walking around that area at night (there have been several recent random muggings and stabbings ... all happening during prime-time hours before 10:00 p.m.).

Many of those buildings are also in DIRE need of extensive work, particularly if they're recent condo or co-op conversions.

just a stupid suggestion. And again, it is really stupid, but rather than go to Washington Heights, why not jsut go 5 minutes across the GWB and get double the space for your money in Fort Lee? Going from Washington Heights to Fort Lee is like going from the UES to Long Island City.

NJ - so close, yet so far..

Matt, you obviously know a lot about northern Washington Heights. I am surprised by your assessment of lower Washington Heights. We're off Broadway on 157th St. and have no noise/quality of life issues and the train is half a block away. Which offsets the lack of great places to eat and the other missing services you mention. In terms of crappy housing stock, did you look much in the lower 150's? You must know that three of the most beautiful pre war buildings are on/near RSD and 157/158th. The Grinnell being an absolute gem, the River Arts is another. Out apt (again not west of Broadway) needed a renovation - if that's what you mean by crappy? But, it's a 1500 sq ft, 9ft ceiling, classic 6. The bones were there under the years of neglect. Now it's perfect place for our family. Very curious how you came to think it was best to stay above 168th st?
The other thing I don't follow is the extremely isolated comment, the 1 is always letting out and there are always people on the streets. I don't mean to find fault, I am actually curious about what you're asserting. We have two small children and haven't ever felt we're putting them in unsafe situations by walking with them at night when coming back from dinner or some event that keeps us out late.

I think you might have a bit of an agenda against lower Washington Heights? Or perhaps an isolated bad experience.

Either way, glad to see discussion about the area. Always curious about peoples perceptions/thoughts.

"We have two small children and haven't ever felt we're putting them in unsafe situations by walking with them at night when coming back from dinner or some event that keeps us out late."

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eliz, where do you plan to send them to school?

As much as I love living in the Heights, I have to disagree with Matt's train times. I have also timed my various regular runs downtown and you will never get from 181 to 59th in 12 minutes nor Chelsea in 20. Add 10 minutes to all of his times if you are meeting friends and 15 if you are going to work. It may sound like a quibble, but I believe in honesty in getting folks to move up here. But, Matt is absolutely right about the UES - you can not get there from here.

Also, a great grocery option that I don't think has been mentioned is Harlem Fairway. They deliver up here for not much more than Fresh Direct. I have enough space up here that I can load up on pantry items a few times a year and then buy perishables at the two farmer's markets nearby.

As far as dining, the pub that Matt referred to on 181 is now a Thai place. It just opened last week and we haven't had a chance to try it. I think the neighborhood now has all of the "basic" expected cuisines covered. And the diner on 187 has much better prices than the place on 181 & Ft Wash.

However, if I were young and single, I would think twice about moving up here. I had one guy friend try it and honestly he didn't want to put out the money for a cab if he met a "possibility" while socializing downtown. There is very little nightlife up here. Wait, let's be honest - there is very little nightlife for the assumed SE demo. There are about 1000 nightclubs based on the regular alcohol violations and noise complaints that I read about in the local weekly.

Nice to hear from some fellow WH's people! I did mention the Harlem Fairway, especially great if you have a car;free parking!

I recently had to get to the upper East side for an appointment, and was dreading it! But I simply took the C to 86th which lets you off directly in front of the cross town bus that will take you all the way to York. Not an ideal situation, but it was fairly easy and quick. I got to 86th from 163rd in like 15 minutes or so, waited 5 for the bus and was through the park in another 5. Not bad.

I agree with Matt that a few blocks can make a big difference in the heights! I live on Fort Washington at 187th, and I wouldn't trade it for any other location in the heights. You have great grocery stores and food options at 187th and a short walk to 181st for starbucks, sushi, and now a GREAT Thai place. Once you walk below the GWB, at 178th, it really changes. The buildings are not as well maintained, the food options become very lacking, and you don't get the river views like you do from the hills in the 180's.
That said, I would say it becomes nice again one you hit the high 150s near riverside drive. You still don't have the grocery and restaurant options there, but the buildings there are beautiful and the area as a whole has lots of potential. I might compare that RSD area to being like 187th ten years ago.
I also agree with Matt that it can feel isolating. I feel like i have a love-hate relationship with the neighborhood. I love it most of the time,but hate the haul home when I'm leaving a friend's place in the upper east side.

admin, the one goes to Trinity School.

I called the 33rd precinct about random stabbings and was told that there is not a crime wave or any such thing to be concerned about. I was told nothing was going on outside the norm of living in the city and that there is a Community Night on the last Wednesday of every month where they review anything of concern and go over crime statistics. He did say all of Washington Heights exceeds the average drug activity for most of NYC but not in murder/rape/etc... Just an FYI for those interested.

NYCMat is Right On! I would just add that I'd stay north of 175th. I don't like being right next to a big hospital. Think about the ambulances. Also a bit depressing. Not very neighborly, either. Feels institutional. Yes, west of Broadway unless you were Latino yourself and felt comfortable, I guess.

Yes on FreshDirect. Best bet. on 181st St, enough restaurants. Not 3 or 4 star restaurants, but your everyday Sushi and American restaurants are there. I think there are more on 187th also.

If you have a car, forget about it. Impossible to park up there. Plan on NO car. There are lots of gypsy cabs you can rely on.

If you have kids and need to think about schools, the elem public school is good up there. Also, lots of daycares and nursery schools that are more affordable than UWS/downtown, obviously. Some families apply to private schools in UWS or UES or in the Bronx (the Hill schools).

It's a family friendly neighborhood. Lots of young families. But also lots of singles, too. Very affordable. G/L!

I bought a great condo in one of those 'beautiful old prewar buildings' earlier this year at 158th and Riverside. I moved up here from the UWS, and as a self employed musician it has worked out great. I was looking for more space and to own, so my choices were pretty much Brooklyn, Queens, or up here. It's a beautiful neighborhood and totally safe. RSD is very quiet and the neighbors are mostly all nice. The commute isn't ideal, but honestly depending on where you have to go frequently neither are most neighborhoods.

For the most part, NYCmatt was point on about the Heights. West of Broadway is nicer although if I had to, I wouldn't feel unsafe living east although it would be noisier. I sort of get what he's saying about above 168th being nicer...but it's a bit of a stretch in my opinion. Yes, there are some more restaurants, more white/jewish people....but, come on...at the end of the day there's not really a viable night life happening in the Heights and I'm guessing not many of us live in NYC because of the Heights. West of Bway in the lower heights is VERY beautiful and there's essentially just as much going on (save a few high end groceries, over priced restaurants and wine stores..).

I think all of this may have been mentioned but here's a few tips based on my experience:
-The 1 train is more reliable than the A. However, it's good to also be in walking distance of the A/C for obvious reasons.
-West of Broadway is quieter and cleaner.
-Malecon on 174th has incredible chicken and is very cheap.
-There's a Japanese/Chinese place called Empire on 168th (or 170th?) that is very good, cheap, and delivers late.

just my 2 cents on the lower 150's aka Hamilton Heights

..I am on RSD right by 150th...great housing stock and large apts, mostly hispanic families/lower-income, but then you also have the young professionals moving in. I would agree on the staying West of Broadway here also, although Edgecombe and Convent are really nice.
All for-sale-apts seem to be in the hands of Sandy E. from Citi-Habitats, he is one of the movers and shakers up here, it seems.
I have seen a couple of nice large apts for below $350K. Unfortunately a lot of HDFC buildings with severe income restrictions.

Grocery store wise you are even closer to Fairway, and then you have a couple of C-towns which are good for basics. (Honestly, where downtown can you get a gallon of Tropicana OJ for $2.99?) -my grocery bills have gone way down....;-)

There is a new restaurant that just opened, Tonalli, on Bway and 148th, great food. Then you have Covo by the underpass area of 131st.

Def. check out Riverbank State Park at 145th for sports, it is great, cheap and has a wonderful pool.

Personally, between 153rd and 158th I agree that is really no-mans land, with the cemetery and the college, at night I do not wander around there.....

Someone told me there is a new conversion happening at 141st and RSD, but it is taking a long time...and I am nost so sure about the people that will be moving into Castle Gardens...

Hi, I live in the Castle Village on Cabrini, above 181st on the river. Indeed the views are absolutely spectacular and the setting is bucolic. Hard to believe you are technically in "Upstate Manhattan". The subway ride takes about 20min on the express from 181st to Columbus Circle. Unfortunately I have to move to Florida for some family reasons and looks like I am being forced to sell my gorgeous 900sq ft apartment with spectacular views. Oh, well.

Whats the deal with Tonalli? What kind of food?

Riverbank state park is great...cheap and very nice.

Tonalli has a little bit of Italian (great pasta, I had some wonderful seafood pasta there the other week), American (think burgers and lambchops), and some ethnic Mexican flavors. It says that Tonalli is actually a Mexican word, even though it sounds Italian. They still have BYOB, even though they now have a liquor license. It is a nice space, I think, and ever since Cafe Largo closed down, I have been trying to support the more upscale places in my area.
Never tried brunch there, maybe tomorrow. And they have small plates for lunch...

Did you ever try that little Italian Panini-and Wine bar across the street from Coogans up on St.Nick's & 170-something? I really liked that....

Nice, I'll have to give it a try.
Never tried that spot at 170.
I have to admit I have been reluctant to et out in the Heights as the decent places kind of seem to be over priced...but I need to get out more.

It's actually pretty easy to have a car in Washington Heights (not so much in Hudson Heights). Parking is relatively easy once you have it figured out.

KeithB, are you the broker? I may need help from you .....

guys check this out:
http://perfdrivenrealty.sitesvp.com/listings.html

call if interested 212-799-6043

I would never move to WH. Why is it that in ethnic neighborhoods like WH there is always blasting music? And I am not bein gracist, because I hate ALL blasting music. But I hear far more loud music in ethnic neighborhoods. Is that they lifestyle you want to live in? Trust me, don't buy in WH. If you do go up there, at least rent for the first year.

mbroman, CC/Maint:$1185 ??? are you sure it's 900 sq feet? it looks to me more like 700 sq feet with the dimensions that you are providing in the floor plan.

there are rent stabilized 2 bedrooms renting for $2k, why on earth paying $470k for the benefit of not paying $800/month to the landlord?

admin, yep, it's 900 sq feet overall, all inclusive. I am not sure I follow your second point though.

President, when you refer to WH, do you include Hudson Heights as well? Cause I can assure you there is not such thing as "blasting music" in this neck of the woods. Just the woods themselves in the shape of gorgeous trees, manicured lawns and park-like settings. Money Magazine rated Hudson Heights as one of the best places to retire. Of course this could be a back handed compliment, but it outlined its benefits of being close to the city and yet affordable, quiet, artistic and very convenient.

mbroman you are right! made a calculation typo, now i get 843 sq feet, close enough. it's just 2 rectangles.

second point: found some 2 bedrooms that were renting for around $2k/month. so my previous point was how much does saving $800/month worth to you? but i take it back. a fast SE search got me many 1 bedrooms in teh area for less than your maintenance costs. how much would you think you could rent your place for? it is for sure much nicer than the cheapest rentals on the area. and great views too! seems very livable for 1 person. issue is, the maintenance seems high to me for a 1 bedroom.

Admin, no problem, just bear in mind the maintenance includes all utilities so discount about $100 or so a month in electricity alone (summer time even higher). Also the rentals you are referring to are in no- doorman buildings usually. This development is a notch above the rest of the area, IMHO. Check out the amenities it offers. You can get probably 1500 to 2k in rent for such an apartment.

agree mbroman, your building seems to offer way much more amenities than what the avg building in the area provides.

so let's assume that you could rent the same apartment for $2k. given that electricity is included (and not only natural gas), one would save around $1k/month and get all the amenities (like doorman) if you would own your place out right (without having a mortgage on it). how much does saving $1k/month worth? is it worth $470k?

admin, that's an issue or rent versus buy. If you want to own your own place this offers a tremendous value compared to the rest of the city. Also, with the Columbia University development north of 125th street coming up, there may be an influx of additional professional people looking for housing. Of course this is speculation at this point but one has to look ahead at what's shaping up in the area. Granted it is not so close to 125th street but the effects may ripple through. If you are a renter who does not want to be bothered with owning your place, this is clearly not for you. On the other hand, if you want to live in your own place and be in charge of your own destiny (rather than deal with landlords), owning may be the right approach. Besides, when the market turns, you can be sitting pretty. Hope this makes it clear.

"If you are a renter who does not want to be bothered with owning your place, this is clearly not for you. On the other hand, if you want to live in your own place and be in charge of your own destiny (rather than deal with landlords), owning may be the right approach. Besides, when the market turns, you can be sitting pretty. Hope this makes it clear."

yeah, it's kind of clear to me that financially is a not a smart move to buy your place (or anything priced at that point with such high maintenance costs). but... psychologically speaking it could be great, i agree with that. that's an area that has nothing to do with the hard cold numbers nor with being in charge with your own financial destiny.

the sitting pretty i don't see it. unless hyperinflation sets in and helps out paying that mortgage (and in that case, very few sit pretty imho).

For obvious reasons, owning is just a different thing than renting. I'm not sure if anyone could really argue that buying with short term goals isn't a common reality right now. However, there are lots of benefits to owning and there are lots of good deals right now that actually do make financial sense when weighed against renting. If you can put enough down it can make your costs reasonable (and I personally feel you shouldn't buy without at least 20% down). I'm not a real estate expert and I've never invested for a flip, but I think in the 5+ year scope if you get a good deal now, you'll be fine. Do watch the excessive maintenances though...I just can't justify that myself.

agree aptdude, and also agree with mbroman.

but it's not about making a big downpayment imho. financially speaking aptdude, imho the only way current prices make sense is if really high inflation kicks in (so that you are saved from higher rental prices in the future). but that only works if you take on the biggest mortgage you can (ie: have as little skin in the game as possible). paying all cash prevents you from taking advantage of a big part of the benefit of high inflation. true, you still get the protection from higher rents in the future, but you would have been better off by letting the fed's money printing machine pay for your fixed rate mortgage.

it's beyond the rent vs buy calculation. it's the deflation versus inflation debate. my point is that current prices make sense only if very high inflation is a certainty. but if so, getting an FHA loan so that you put as little as possible down (3.5%) is the optimal thing to do. put your $ in gold/commodities and let the FED pay most of your mortgage. BUT if deflation continues... then homebuyers are royally screwed and renters keep on winning.

admin, it's very hard to find a rental comparable in quality and views to the apartment listed for sale, but not entirely impossible. Usually such apartments command a premium that renters may not be willing fork over.Good luck with your search (assuming you are in the market).

"just a stupid suggestion. And again, it is really stupid, but rather than go to Washington Heights, why not jsut go 5 minutes across the GWB and get double the space for your money in Fort Lee? Going from Washington Heights to Fort Lee is like going from the UES to Long Island City."

Because then you'd have to spend an additional $1000/month on a CAR.

NYCMatt, on this we agree. Much more than just $1000 on a car. The cost of probably two cars, a bigger space so electric/escalating taxes, and the potential for power lines or other such blights to go up at any moment always exist. and getting over the bridge/through the tunnel is a nightmare on a daily basis. i have no problem with NJ unless you need to work in NYC and must commute daily. In which case, I think staying on the island is essential.

ACH- Thanks for the tip on Tonalli. Went there for brunch today after reading and it was great. Great food, nice place (kind of funny actually considering what else is on Broadway...), and the prices were good. I had coffee and a salmon benedict for about $10...very good.

Here's to more good places in the area!

If you want to go to a Target, you need not go up to Kingsbridge Road on the 1 train. There's a new one at Bronx Gateway Center at 153rd & River Avenue, which is closer to WaHi, at least geographically, so if you walk, drive, take bus, or are near the 155th & 8th stop of the B/D, then that's probably more convenient. If people move to Wash Hts for more space for less money, I don't get this east/west of Broadway thing. Both east and west of Bwy are the same area, but prices are higher for west of Bwy once you buy into the notion that there are some places that are just off-limits to "people like us." There is really only one part of Wash Hts that is dramatically better in look and feel, and that is Cabrini Blvd and the two avenues west of it, fr 181st to Ft Tryon Park.

oops - Cabrini and the two avenues EAST of it.
And forgot to mention - some people think everything "up there" in a vague sort of above-Columbia geography is Washington Heights. Hamilton Heights is not so different, and that is the area south of 155th, but west of the cliff.

@poorishlady, yes I am a broker. www.theburkhardtgroup.com www.nycrentrant.blogspot.com

Tonalli looks great and I like the prices, we ate at Community Table yesterday (Bway@112th), great organic food...but pricey.

Keith

Community is vastly overrated, IMHO, the lines are always superlong, and they slap two eggs with mediocre sauce on a plate and call it Eggs Benedict.
Don't really get the hype there.....and yes, you are right, for what it is, it's too expensive...

I also would recommend The Hudson River Cafe at the underpass by Fairway, they have live-Jazz Brunch on Sunday's, w/ unlimited Mimosa for ~$25. Can't beat that...

and lowery, I know so many people that think everything "up there" is pretty much the Bronx already....lol. They "get" Harlem but that's it....

Aptdud09, glad you liked it!
I can also recommend Tanto Dulce Cafe, tiny spot w/ good coffee and nice food. And the absolute best cafe con leche to be had is at "Mi Tierra" on Bway and 146th....for $1!

Hey, ACH, thanks for the restaurant tips.

Which part of The Bronx do people think that all "up there" is equal to? LOL

lowery, I have no idea! lol. It's a sorta fuzzy notion for them...or everything is Harlem up there, I also get that a lot. And then I tell them how much I pay for a 1 1/2-BR rental as opposed to the shoebox they live in, and their jaws drop....always great to see! ;-)

Life is bueno in the Heights. Good cafe con leche abounds. And the rents, fughetaboutit. If you have a car, trips to Arthur ave in the Bronx can be a lot of tasty fun, great in the summer eating Oysters on the street, canolis at D'lilo....Another plus, if you golf, its a short trip on the 1 train to Van Cortlandt park.

ah, the pleasures of the Bronx............. glad to see someone else knows them ;)

"I don't get this east/west of Broadway thing. Both east and west of Bwy are the same area, but prices are higher for west of Bwy once you buy into the notion that there are some places that are just off-limits to "people like us." "

Spoken like someone who's apparently never even been to WaHi.

That's like saying "I don't get this north/south of 96th Street thing on the Upper East Side. Both are the same area."

Seriously -- they are NOT the "same area".

Yeah, there is a pretty large divide between in east/west Washington Heights, especially the farther up you go and also in the 155-160's. The west side is certainly cleaner, quieter...and more expensive. My block on 158th and RSD is amazingly nice...people who visit from downtown are always like, "what, i had no idea this was up here...". It's great.

However, just like the UWS, this area depends almost entirely on Broadway for services...which are lacking although growing. Whether or not this is a deal breaker though, is subjective.

"However, just like the UWS, this area depends almost entirely on Broadway for services...which are lacking although growing. Whether or not this is a deal breaker though, is subjective."

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how much of the local population live on section 8? if it's too high, there's not gonna be enough people with discretionary income to sustain much more than bodegas and 99 cent stores imho.

I think that's right on, although I believe it is slowly changing. At this point for me, it is still hard to tell what's going to happen with the area but the potential is definitely there for improvement. There are lots of relatively well to do people living in the neighborhood and I'm pretty confident they all want to see some more services pop up. The economy might not be improving quickly, but the area is still changing and there is a void for good restaurants, cafes, etc.

We had a nice french bakery/sandwich shop on 159th and Edgecombe, just not enough biz over here to keep it up and running.

Looking at Hudson Heights in the 180's -- is there an east/west Broadway change there also?

yeah, i think most would agree

The_President, I agree with you that, if possible, renting for a year before you buy ANYWHERE would be an ideal scenario. I disagree the playing loud music is something that happens in Washington Heights beyond what one would expect in the city. I am on 157th St, where people are saying it is "no man's land" as though it's some security problem, maybe this explains why I never have had a noise complaint or garbage issue or any such problem that would make me want to flee the area.

We lived for about 4 months (and rented the apartment to others for about 18 months) on 19th St. All because of a certain club(between 7th and 8th) we sold...it was that intolerable in terms of noise. When we lived on Bank St. we had the loud, drunk college students wandering from Corner Bistro and pissing between cars and the people from the Cubby Hole going on all night. So, no, in no way do I find Washington Heights loud. We lived in "prime" Chelsea and WV and once we got beyond 30, found it intolerable. At least up here I could console myself that it's so cheap as to be laughable if I had a noise issue.

At any rate--you're right. If possible, rent to get to know the area before making an enormous investment.

"There are lots of relatively well to do people living in the neighborhood and I'm pretty confident they all want to see some more services pop up. The economy might not be improving quickly, but the area is still changing and there is a void for good restaurants, cafes, etc."

Indeed.

And not just restaurants and cafes.

Grocery stores would be a good start. Office supply stores or just an old-fashioned stationery store. Card shops. And CLOTHING stores; unless you're a street thug or a hoochie mama, you can't buy a stitch of clothing anywhere in the 'hood.

As much as I hate chain stores -- for God's sake, at least deliver a Gap!

I can't say I agree. Gap-->Banana Republic-->Intermix-->Marc Jacobs = your "village" becomes a suburban mall. Granted, it takes a long time but I hate what it did to the village, west in particular.

i'll take a suburban mall with real choices versus the absolute crap they're currently selling in the "stores" in WaHi right now.

It's easy enough to travel 20 minutes on the subway to buy clothes. We do have a large staples up here and there are a few decent small stationary stores around. I have a Rite Aide on 163 and St. Nicholas, there are a few wine stores that are decent in a pinch.

C-Town on 162nd was just made over and is much better with wide aisles and all new freezers and refrigeration. They are even carrying some Amy's products and Morningstar grillers.

What I would like is a good pizza place, though since we own a car going to Arthur ave or Patsy's on 117th is always fun. I would love just a few cafes and bakeries to get a good croissant in the morning or a sandwich in the afternoon.

But as someone else said here, considering the ridiculous rent we pay for a very nice two bedroom prewar, with two new elevators and laundry....I can ride the train for the stuff I cant find here.

"I can ride the train for the stuff I cant find here."

It's good you have that kind of time.

Many don't.

we should start a washington heights support group....dedicated to finding all the shit we took for granted while living downtown..

great pizza is lacking, but today i did grab a pretty good slice at the place on 155th and st. nicholas. pretty decent actually. the place on 157th and broadway is horrible...

how about a bagel place? i'm shocked i can't find a good one nearby. the twin donut spot is an insult of a bagel.

20 minutes on a train is considered a luxury of time? How about 10? Actually I do 80% of my clothes shopping at Lohmans. Ahh a good bagel,I just stock up at Fairway Harlem.

Anyone know how that fish monger is on Broadway around 158th?

thatwoman, "Hudson Heights" does not exist east of Broadway. I thought it ended at Bennett, but a broker rolled her eyes at me when I told her that I had seen 27 vacant one-bed apts in the nabe and she said that east of Ft Wash doesn't count.

I can't believe that I am agreeing with Matt again - but a decent stationer would be lovely. But once again I declare - no GAP or Banana, please. I'm actually surprised that there isn't a card/gift/home knick-knack store in the area. But then again, even my favorite card shops downtown have had to close or move due to high rents.

"we should start a washington heights support group....dedicated to finding all the shit we took for granted while living downtown.."

What else is frustrating is that WaHi lets the chains erect the most garish signage.

Thank GOD they forced McDonald's on 170th and Broadway to take down that Ronald McDonald balloon.

But elsewhere, the Dunkin' Donuts, the Domino's, etc ... awful.

***

"20 minutes on a train is considered a luxury of time?"

At best, a clothes shopping trip downtown would be 20 minutes ONE WAY. Let's face it, for 90% of everything you'd ever want to buy, Washington Heights folks are facing at least an hour of round-trip travel time. How nice it would be to just walk 5 minutes to a Broadway that looks more like the Broadway around 66th Street, rather than the crappy Broadway of 166th Street.

***
"I'm actually surprised that there isn't a card/gift/home knick-knack store in the area. "

There are a few, but they carry embarrassingly cheap and kitschy crap (unless you're into fake flowers and Mary-in-the-half-shell kind of decor).

lookingforhome thanks for clarifying. Streeteasy calls the area east of Broadway "Fort George". We're looking in the Hudson Heights area. We have young (raised in the suburbs) teens and would like to send them out for pizza and still feel that they will be comfortable. (Our skin is the kind of pale that glows in the dark..sigh.)

keith, the fish store isn't bad. quality never an issue but you're not going to get as wide a variety as say whole foods.

NYCMatt, i think a lot of us work/spend time downtown anyway so we do those types of chores at the same time. suppose if you work from home, it would get tedious.

love hearing from all the locals, great thread. even if we sometimes disagree.

I'm also delighted to see some discussion about the Heights on a generally downtown centric board....

Sometimes it is a pain in the ass living up here...but at the end of the day, I own my place for less than I could rent in almost any Manhattan (or decent Brooklyn) neighborhood. Sure, I'd love it if this area had as much going on as other neighborhoods, but this is where I could afford a decent apartment and I still really feel the neighborhood will continue to improve in good services.

Can anyone recommend a good place to get a burger? Preferably in the lower heights or hamilton heights area?

did that condo over the subway entrance on overlook terrace ever get built?

"We have young (raised in the suburbs) teens and would like to send them out for pizza and still feel that they will be comfortable."

You know you can get pizza delivered, right?

"Can anyone recommend a good place to get a burger? Preferably in the lower heights or hamilton heights area?"

Coogan's. 169th and Broadway.

I'd second Coogan's for the burger. And now Tonalli.

I'd just really would love to get a good croissant somewhere up by us....
and um, Cilantro everywhere, but no fresh basil to be had anywhere in the 150s ;-)

I have been looking for a 1BR on the downlow for about 5 months now, just to see whether what I want is what I can get in my pricerange...so far no total winners but some so-so's....

I saw this and really liked it, but it is a 5th floor walkup....I really want an elevator..
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/450512-coop-507-west-140th-street-hamilton-heights-new-york

so far I have come to the conclusion to keep looking and saving for another year, and by then I will feel more comfy with my financial situation...

I saw that place on 140th in 2008! I thought it was HDFC...
I've got a nice 1br on RSD at 158th...there's some nice stuff in this area.

aptdude09, it is one of the few ones that isn't....yay!!! sort-of ;-)
I have found so many great ones where the price was just too good to be true, and of course, HDFC!!!

yeah, I saw some apts at 807 RSD and 779 RSD quite a while ago, some of those were very nice! I am biding my time since a lot of them got pulled, they might come up again, we'll see....

I found this recently...not sure how active they are, but I was thinking of checking them out, might be good to be gleaning some information from them about the neighborhood...other than what info I can get from this board (which is awesome, btw)

http://hamiltonheightshomeowners.org/index.htm

That's certainly an issue uptown. I considered and HDFC, and could've gotten a much bigger apartment. However, at the end of my search I just felt it wasn't as sound as a condo. I didn't want to limit my eventual resale with income restrictions, and those HDFCs sit on the market for ever!

Yeah, the price point for 1br's is kind of a drag. The affordable ones are more like studios and the bigger ones are usually too expensive. I ended up with a relatively average sized one (roughly 600 sq.ft), great kitchen and bath, but I wish I had a bit more space. It's like for an extra 100k, I could have gotten a decent 2br! Granted, I was only looking for condo's so my options were much more limited. But my maintenance is only $230...

"But my maintenance is only $230..."

For now.

I may get flamed for this considering I don't eat hamburgers, so what do I know. But what about Jimbos? Of course I will guess its not in league with Corner Bistro etc..For a basic diner style egg and cheese its not bad.

Also many of the Chinese restaurants on the UWS deliver here for like an extra dollar, Hunan Balcony is one of them.

I work quite a bit in the Village, so bring home the goodies I can't get here on my way home. Freeze some croissants from Patisserie Claude and pop them in the toaster oven...

This is giving me some good ideas for a cafe/store, but are there enough of "us" to support it?

By "us," if you mean people that have a few bucks to spend on a decent cup of coffee and a good bagel...I'm guess yes there are enough to support. Regarding lower heights, I think realistically Broadway (or even the side corners or Edward Morgan) needs to develop before anything else, but yeah one would think there is a need. We need something in between the dive spots and the humorously up scale places (who in the heights is going to pay $3 for a cup of mediocre coffee..?). Or maybe a cafe that does a good burger and a beer in the evening? Would this be too ahead of it's time in the area?

Speaking of coffee...anything good between 155th and 162...east or west? Have been a bit disappointed with the newer bakery on 157th and Broadway (yellow sign...forget the name).

Nelly's on Amsterdam and 160th makes a good cafe con leche. two shots of espresso and hot, not steamed milk. Sometimes a little too milky for me.

By "us" that is exactly what I meant.

cool, ill check that out.
any info on that taza de cafe place on 155th and st.nick? is it opening up or closed down?

"his is giving me some good ideas for a cafe/store, but are there enough of "us" to support it?"

Keep it west of Broadway, please.

***

"who in the heights is going to pay $3 for a cup of mediocre coffee..?"

Make it "decent" and I'll be there.

ok, does anyone know of a pizza place that delivers to the lower heights late night....after 11pm or god forbid 12? I just failed miserably with the usual two places I order from and was forced to order papa johns. this is just not acceptable.

KeithB, I haven't ordered from or been in Hunan Balcony in YEARS, but they are in my West 90s neighborhood. You should see if Saigon Grill delivers to your area. They're on Amsterdam Ave in the low 90s, have lots of asian customers, and customers travel from the Bronx to eat there.

Matt, thanks for your thoughtful posts on the area.

Try Giovanni in the Bronx, they deliver to us on 160th. I am a real pizza snob and usually just jump in the car and go to Patsy's for a pie. But when we do want to order this is the best option we have found up here. 718 402 6996 (They have 2 locations, one of them delivers here)

www.giovanninyc.com

Keith

http://nycrentrant.blogspot.com/

Try Pizza Nova.

928-8880.

For those of us looking for good bread in the upper Heights, Frank's on 187th not only carries bread from Balthazar (and will order anything they don't have for you), the market also bakes its own croissants and bread daily. But you have to get there early.

Matt, are you recommending the Pizza Nova on Bdwy and 178th? Because it closed.

I don't mind Pizza Famiglia on Bdway and 169th-ish. The crust isn't that great, but they have very fresh toppings. The basil and tomato "fresca" is refreshing.

Keith, thanks for the heads up on Giovanni. I'm going to give them a try.

Here's one for the team (:

There is a very large(1300F2+) two bedroom with large kitchen, formal dining room and large living room,high ceilings, available at 555 Edgecombe avenue (160th across from Jumel Mansion). The building has a laundry room and two brand new elevators. This is an old fashioned, prewar apartment but overall in good shape. They will paint and refinish the floors, maybe change some of the kitchen appliances, but only with the most basic stuff. The apartment has open views to the East from dining/living room and is at the roof line of the building to its South, so you see plenty of sky and get bright South light.

Building staff is great, there is a "guard" from 6pm-12am, plenty of heat occasional plumbing issues that are always fixed promptly.

This is rent stabilized (built 1910) Google the address for some interesting history. Asking $2200.

Just go to the building on Monday at 6:30pm and see owner on lobby level.

KeithB, lol, if I could buy a place like that, pref. for under $300K, then I would never ever complain again....for now, just pipe dreams.

Anyone familiar with 212 Bennett Ave?

thatwoman...are you still looking in Hudson Heights?

C-Town on 163rd has been completely renovated and really increased the number of products they carry. They have a good selection of fresh herbs as well as basil(I think someone asked about basil?) Also Amy's frozen dinners, good selection of Newmans own, Synergy drinks, organic milk...pretty nice improvement.

I'm not surprised, the Gristedes at 168th now carries Amy's and Shop Rite's line of organics. I used to be afraid to step in there due to the smell of rotting meat, but I think they may have bought new mops, too.

Oh that smell would kill me..lol. Lets hope they keep up with changing the mops/water.

Thatwoman, I went to the open house at 212 Bennett a few weeks ago. Did you go to check it out yet...what were your thoughts? Here is MHO:
Location - pretty good as bennett ave goes, but really poor as hudson heights goes. It is really at the 'edge' of hudson heights, so it would have to be an amazing price to lure me to the 'downstairs' area.
Building - looks very nicely done with good finishes, but I am very skeptical of any new construction built in bubble time. Maybe I have read too many articles/posts about people experiencing leaks, poor soundproofing, etc. in new buildings.
Units - some layouts are much better than others! Some involve walking through the kitchen to get to the bedroom, and the 'private' outdoor spaces for the top floor units are not directly off the units. (set aside area of roof deck).
Pricing- WOW, don't get me started. I got an e-mail from the realtor after the open house saying they received 2 offers that first day. For those buyers' sake, I hope they were lowballs. They are asking 450-490ish for a one bedroom/1 bath with small balcony. They need to drop these prices or I smell an auction coming....hello...Solaria Riverdale?? Really, almost a half million for no river view? One beds with river views along cabrini are currently asking 345-375ish, why would anyone pay 100K more for a FAR inferior location. The only thing the building really has going for it is cheap monthies. A tax abatement in a neighborhood of high coop maintenance fees is tempting...but not tempting enough to give up location, view, and a smaller mortgage.