price chops at one brooklyn bridge??

I believe this advertising is consistent with price reductions that were put in pace in October.

common charge wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too high

Yes.. I have delt with these people recently. The prices are too high and so are the common charges. They have a land lease so the common charges will keep increasing significantly. This place is not a good purchase.. plus they have cut corners on some of the construction.

With the tax abatement (15yrs for the J-51 not 10yrs like a 421a) the common charges are actually a good deal. $1,800 tax included for a 3br 1800 sq ft full service condo. Pls cite concrete examples dewyagi of what better maintenance+ tax charges are out there for full service buildings in BH or manhattan - or are the specifics getting in the way of your argument?
Also mealie the land lease is 99 yrs. Lets get together then and go over how bad a purchase this was.

since they got a j51 i wonder if they will run into legal issues as a result of the tishman speyer rulings...anyway you slice it, its still a crap building in a terrible corner next to the highway.

If the building is such crap marco then why are you inquiring about when prices will be down 90% so that you can afford a downpayment?

dewyagi, what is your basis for saying that the common charges are way too high. Look at other luxury buildings with similar amenities, who has significantly lower CCs?

Mealie, as for the land lease, it will increase by fixed amounts so that is at least predictable. CCs go up in most every building so what's your point. As for your assertion that they have cut corners on some of the construction, in what areas and again what's the basis? What are the prices were you quoted that are too high?

Marco, OBBP may be many things but it is not by any measure a crap building. Care to explain the comment. While it may not be on the prettiest corner now, it will be much different soon enough. And I can't even count the number of buldings next to a highway or major throughfare (I've live on third Avenue and Broadway, the BQE isn't much different).

The CC's are VERY high. This studio is over $1000/month before you even pay your mortgage.
That is high for a new building with so many units.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/470680-condo-360-furman-street-brooklyn-heights-brooklyn

Ive been there and thats my opinion which i believe I am entitled to. why do brokers always correlate negativity with not being able to afford? Im just hangin out cash in hand watchin things implode. must suck starin at another year thats gonna be worse than last year

bobski, not on a per sq/ft basis its not. Your talking about a 864 sq/ft studio not some 550 sq/ft studio. And the number of units is only one factor. The cost to heat builidng doesn't go down because there are many units, etc. Show my a luxury building with a lower CC per sq/ft.

place sucks. although I will say the bathrooms are nice

marco, just to give some context to your "opinion," I would like to know what buildings you are impressed by in the same price range. I guess I just don't understand how someone could say the place sucks. It may not be your cup of tea or what your looking for, but that's a whole lot different from saying that a place sucks.

Gatornyc is spot on. $/month per square foot is the metric used to compare apples to apples. As the link below explains maintenance $ per square foot is closer to $1.50 in luxury buildings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/realestate/24cov.html?pagewanted=print

So to get all the OBPP amenities for just over $1/ sq foot is an incentive, not a drawback when analyzing monthly cash flow.

gator, here is a 2 bedroom in a luxury development that has lots of units, and a pool to pay for. The CC's come out to less than $800/month:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/272768-condo-34-n-7th-st-williamsburg-brooklyn

bobski, actually the CCs are almost identical. At the OBBP unit you have CCs of $795 and $222 in taxes. At your comp at the Edge the CCs are $760 and $6 in taxes. You can't use taxes in the comparison because the exemptions are different (OBBP actually has both an abatement and an exemption so the taxes will stay low far longer than at the Edge, so over time the tax advantage goes to OBBP). Even if you do take the taxes into account I'll still take the place at OBBP for $470,000 compared to $795,000, a whopping $325,000 difference!!!!! Or does sales price not matter?

And the studio at OBBP and 2 bed at edge are the same square footage!

Yes, @marco_m, I too would like to know which buildings you consider to be quality product. Regardless of price, I'm curious. And not disparage or challenge you. I would like to know in order to give context and credibilty to your opinions, to which of course you are entitled to. Many thanks in advance.

shuttle bus runs 5-7 in the PM, highly doubt anyone WORKING could take advantage of that. the Edge has a swimming pool, and a heated pool...a WING of amentities.

and brooklyn bridge park is PUBLIC.

The Edge is already a bad example, it's probably less than 20% sold with NO closing happening yet.

gator, of course the sale price matters, but the question was about common charges. I'm saying the price of the common charges for a studio at OBBP is more than that of a 2 bdroom at another lux development. One with a pool to boot. Yes, it is a large studio, but the point is, the common charges are HIGH.

marco - I agree with the bathroom. By far the nicest bathroom I've seen for the same price. Has nothing to do with the common charge tho.

bobski, two bedroom or studio is irrelevant; CC per sq/ft is the only applicable metric. Throw up a couple of walls in OBBP's studio and you have a 2 bedroom at the Edge; they have the same square footage so the room is there. And on a square footage basis, the two units have virtually identical CCs so how is OBBP high and the Edge isn't? While I'll grant you the pool, at OBBP you will have an entire park at your doorstep and the CCs include PILOTs that fund the park.

As for the Edge having a WING of amenities, OBBP's amenities are located throughout the building, which I prefer as everyone has some of the amenities located more closely to their units, i.e., I don't want to have to go all the way to the amenity wing to use the children's playroom.

All that has been shown is that the Edge and OBBP have equivalent CCs; we can quibble over which has more or better amenities. And I would agree that the Edge is a bad example in view of the difference in sales price. And sales price matters because another relevant metric would be amenities/luxury per square foot of purchase price (in other words you can buy alot more luxury/amenity at OBBP than you do at the Edge).

Not sure what part of this fairly element point isn't getting through: conparisons of common charges should be assessed per square foot. Read the above thread. There are 1,000 sq foot 3BR, 2000 sq foot BR, and 3,000 sq foot 3BR out there. What is the relevant distinction, that they all have the same amount of bedrooms or that one is 3 times larger than the other? Read the above thread. It is pretty self explanatory. The OBBP CC + taxes PER SQUARE FOOT are a good value when compared to full service, luxury buildings. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous and not backed up by facts.

Since when does one have to justify an opinion? Is it rental or a condo? One of the sales people actually told me Rental units would be delivered "as new" lol like I said it sucks in even more ways than one. As for a comp...u got me there. Obbp has the market cornered on crappiness next to a highway so drivers can look directly into it ur place

By the way...how much wil it cost to have someone come on and clean ur windows? It can't be done without professional equipment

this thread is filled with Clavins

The Difference Between Websters and Clavins

Websters, named after the dictionary, are know-it-all types who actually do possess an impressive amount of knowledge about a subject or more than one area of expertise. Nevertheless, they can become disagreeable if they are contradicted and/or challenged.

The Clavins, however, named after Cliff Clavin, the character on the TV sitcom Cheers, pretend to know everything but in fact don't know what they're talking about. Their motto is "Not always right but never in doubt."

The one personality trait they have in common is narcissism. Their constant and tireless attempts to impress reflect a need for approval and validation. The endless flow of information is usually harmless just as long as it's limited to a verbal exchange. But, in the case of a Clavin who is trying to repair something like a computer or a car, it can be a costly and dangerous act to leave these tasks in the hands of such people.

Read more at Suite101: How to Deal With Know-It-All Personalities: Know-It-Alls Can Present Some Unique Challenges at Home and at Work http://personalitydisorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_to_deal_with_knowitall_personalities#ixzz0da4GZnUL

Maybe its just me, but I don't espouse opinions that I won't or can't justify, especially when posting them on a public message board that people read to obtain information. At least you've said that you won't justify your opinion, so people reading this board can put it in context and afford it such credence as is warranted for an unsupported opinion...none. This is the problem with our message board culture; it is so easy for anyone to insult and denigrate anything they want (and often have ulterior motives for doing so) without having to explain or justify their opinion.

And marco, it is not a rental. Less than 10 percent of the units were rented and the sponsor has not added any additional rental units as the ones offered where leased. I do not know how the rental units will be delivered nor do I really care; I am not purchasing one of those units (most apartments are "used," how do you discount for an apartment you are buying from someone else?).

As for the number of units in which a driver could look directly into a unit, these are very, very few and priced accordingly. And buildings on any avenue in Manhattan have the same issue. Lastly, the building's budget includes professional window cleaning; I believe 4 times a year for units facing the BQE. Anything else? Care to mention where you live, so we can call it crap without justification?

moxie, nice reference! I don't see many Websters on this thread, but more than a few Clavins.

" To suggest otherwise is disingenuous and not backed up by facts."

disigenuous?!!!..really...lets take a tape measure to any unit at OBBP and see what the actual livable square footage is so we can see what we are really paying for..then ur common charges go through the roof. disingenuous..please...developers are inherently disingenous..

developers and brokers are just so frustrated now that they have to deal with an informed consumer.

marco, this is becoming pointless. By your analysis every building's common charges goes through the roof on a useable square footage basis. If every developer and broker inflates square footage than we still have an apples to apples comparison, so what's your point? Your way off point here; the question is whether OBBP's CCs are "way too high" as suggested by two posters without a shred of support (i.e., a single luxury bulidng in the area that has CCs that are significantly less than OBBPs).

If someone offers to sell you the Brooklyn bridge...

that doesnt make it ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as a buyer and a consumer, I am sick of having to wade through all these games to figure out where things really are. Its bullshit.

concerned, where did I suggest that it was okay?! It is also not okay for posters to make "drive-by opinions" without a shred of support. The data available to make an apples to apples comparison is CC per square foot based on the stated square footage by broker or developer. If they all inflate the square footage then we are still apples to apples. It doesn't make it right, it just makes it what we have to work with.

Being a Clavin is annoying...using multiple SE handles to agree with yourself is delusional..

I am entitled to my opinion. who are you, the chinesse government ? glad to see there are others concerned with the shenanagans going on in the manhattan real estate game. it is no longer acceptable.

yes I know is spelled chinese wrong

marco, what good is an opinion without any support for it? Blind belief is for the ignorant. No one can stop you from shouting your uninformed opinions from the rafters, but that doesn't mean your opinion is worth anything. And I am just as "entitled" (one of the most overused words in the English language) to disagree with you and call you out for your lack of support. You want to address issues in the real estate game? Go ahead, but stop disparaging specific properties without any support for your opinions.

Dear Spieler1,
I still think the One Brooklyn Bridge is a bad deal. What makes it the worse deal is the outrageous price per square foot that they are looking to achieve for a bulding after 3 plus years of sales is less than 30% sold. Also you should know that AIG is a senior lender and we all know how things are going at AIG.

Also I miss spoke about the land lease it is actually the impending real estate tax increase due to the corresponding re-assessment to the "so called" completion of the park which gives me concern that the already high common charges will continue to see increases in the near future. As for examples of full service buildings in Brooklyn check out 360 Bridge Street, and the Oro. There are others but no time to keep listing. Good luck.

Also please note that the CC are extremely high given the fact that the building has not sold enough units. They need to increase the common charges to cover cost to keep the building running. People be smart... the prices WILL come down more or the bank will take the project!

One other thing... Spieler1 with a land lease as I'm sure you know residents are covering their pro-rata share of the land lease payments and without seeing a copy of the lease itself, I can't be sure; however, it is highly unlikely that the land lease rent is fixed for 99 years!!!

given the location and looks of the units (except the nice bathrooms) i think its a crap building for the money. theres my justification.

It was waaaaaaaaay overpriced to begin with. A building with significant challenges marginal area selling at top tier prices.... nope. In a great market, sure, even crap can sell. In a crash, this is the stuff that takes it worst.

Sorry to point out some facts: despite a 35% chop on units w. full or partial BQE views in sept 2009, only 20 have closed in the four months until today + merely 4 others in contract (out of a plenty 400+ total). That's barely 30% sold after sitting there like a ghost building for more than 3 years! Looking from South Street Seaport, 1 in 10 windows only have curtains.
Talking about the "apts flying off shelves" sales hype... I don't want to judge a property b/c it will get on the buyers' nerves. People vote by foot.
And the economy doesn't look very encouraging at the beginning of the new decade; Wall st in the old way doesn't exist anymore; NYC unemployment is at 17 year high; mortgage rates have nowhere to go but up, some building went bankrupt even after reaching 50% sold (20 Bayard)...

wow, so much misinformation! The SE message boards are almost useless because most of the information exchanged here is simply wrong. Probably isn't worth the time, but I'll respond specifically after I get some actual work done. P.S. Leom, don't know where you got your information, but those are not facts.

It's all on SE. I know there's a lag btwn actual closing & update on the website. But that applies universally to every building so can still be a very good indicator if you make horizontal comparisons even it's not 100% accurate. Like Forte has 68 contracts signed until last week but only 41 show up. You can check out the many new developments that started sales at about the same time with OBBP but got 80+% sold with only a 20-30% price slash: Powerhouse in LIC, 1 Hanson in Fort Greene, 1 NSP in W'burg... Those are similar in price (originally $700-1000/sf) & location (not prime but close to Manhattan, on the waterfront or w. other uniqueness). OBBP lags faaar behind.

That information is not passed by anyone to me. Check out OBBP's building info page on SE:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/one-brooklyn-bridge-park
Admitted that the 65(though still a minor part of the stock!) active listings have some repetitive ones. But the proportion w. only 4 in contracts is so striking to the point of almost intimidating & depressing for any potential buyers!
The closing pace is about 5-6 per month. Would be much appropriate for a 100-200 units building.

That information is not passed by anyone to me. Check out OBBP's building info page on SE:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/one-brooklyn-bridge-park
Admitted that the 65(though still a minor part of the stock!) active listings have some repetitive ones. But the proportion w. only 4 in contracts is so striking to the point of almost intimidating & depressing for any potential buyers!
The closing pace is about 5-6 per month. Would be much appropriate for a 100-200 units building.

That information is not passed by anyone to me. Check out OBBP's building info page on SE:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/one-brooklyn-bridge-park
Admitted that the 65(though still a minor part of the stock!) active listings have some repetitive ones. But the proportion w. only 4 in contracts is so striking to the point of almost intimidating & depressing for any potential buyers!
The closing pace is about 5-6 per month. Would be much appropriate for a 100-200 units building.

Leom, I will respond more fully later, but the contract information on SE is not accurate for OBBP and for that matter many buildings. Contracts only get listed on SE if that information is provided to SE. There a far more than 4 units in contract at OBBP.

Its still a ghosttown over there. Last 5-6 times I passed the building (in the last 2 months, all different times of day), I didn't see a person.

And I tood a perspective from the other side: when I took the ferry to Ikea on a weekend, I couldn't help seeing those walls of empty windows. Not more than 10% has curtains/shades installed. Not a single humain soul in sight. Do we really need argue over the accurate of stats to confirm the sold and owner occupiedness?

Somewhere, let me get this straight, it's a ghost town, yet you’ve passed the building 5-6 times in past two months. Got it.

Just wait for Pier 6 to open in 3-4 months. You'll have all sorts of foot traffic, and with that will come tenats in the retail space to serve it (if you don't believe it will just check out the long dormant stip of stores on Columbia Place; Isis restaurant recently opened and several other storefronts were just leased). And the Water Taxi comes in July. Have you heard about the restaurant that will be akin to the Water Cafe on Pier 6? Didn't think so. Its being built now. You say dormant, I say on the cusp.

theres plenty of traffic if you count all the people on the BQE leering into your apartment

I have to admit I still think this project is priced way too high. I know about the Park and everything else but the huge common charges coupled with a land lease, which is unlikely fixed for 99 years is a cause for concern. Plus the building isn't selling. Stribling dropped the project and the TDG will too.. give them time. Unless you drop the prices people aren't going to buy. This project and tons like it in NYC need to realize that they are dealing with a different type of consumer. We have seen the mistakes of the past and many are trying NOT to repeat. I think this is a general concensous with most people buying right now.

Leom, yeah we are going to argue about it, because the other side of the story should be told. First the building is 30% sold and there are at least another 20 units in contract (not including 6 that just closed in a bulk all cash purchase!) and more than 10 contracts out. It is hardly the ghost town you and somewhere suggest. How do I know? I walk by the building once or twice a week and there's always someone around; the garage in the building is almost full; every time I'm in the building the gym is active. Is the building full? No, but no one is suggesting that it is. Was Forte full when you purchased there? No, it was about 30% sold and bankrupt, yet you took the leap. And the activity around the building is about to increase tremendously. Pier 6 will open in the next 3-4 months (will be huge press when it does) and that will make a huge difference. Then Pier 5 is next (fully funded and will be finished late 2011).

Yet you think you can judge occupancy by which units have curtain/shades installed? That’s really a non-starter. You can see curtains/shades from South Street Seaport? Wow you’re eagle-eyed. How do you know that the blinds weren’t drawn open? You can’t even see any of the courtyard view units, so there’s 30% of the building you can’t even see. And I have no intention of putting up blinds in the living room of my unit as no one has any vantage point to look into the unit. I guess you’ll just consider that unoccupied. It is what is: 30% closed, more than 20 more in contract, and 10+ contracts out. Very good traction since the price cuts and the momentum continues. Also, if it takes an average of 3 months to close an apt how can you judge sales traction based on price cuts that took place 4 months ago?

Also, you compare One Hanson and Powerhouse to OBBP to suggest that OBBP “lags far behind” because those buildings are 80% sold. Problem is that you’re using percentages to make those buildings fit your argument. You can’t just look at % sold to gauge interest in buildings especially when comparing one building to another. Let’s look at the actual sales numbers. One Hanson has 189 apartments, so 80% sold would mean that 151 units were sold. OBBP has 441 units (several units have been combined; one buyer is combining two townhouses) and 30% sold means that 132 units were sold. So in terms of units sold – a much better measure of interest in a building (you’re people “voting by foot”) – the buildings aren’t considerably different. Same with Powerhouse and its 177 units. Only knock on 1BBP is that it’s a much larger building so it will naturally take longer to sell especially in today’s market.

The fact that OBBP was resistant to drop prices is no longer relevant; OBBP is now very competitively priced, but it certainly hurt past sales. I would have preferred that it had done so sooner, but now that it has OBBP has matched the sales in your comps and keeping momentum. So much OBBP lagging far behind. This is very encouraging for buyers!

gator, frankly i just don't see the point. why buy at this juncture in an at-risk development? at least potentially so. i know you continually harp on the interest rate issue, but affordability is still extremely weak for buyers. if they tighten any of the conditions the market will tank. they may not, but do you want to be an owner in a development that is less than 50% sold? do you really think that in a year your monthly costs will rise, even if interest rates rise? and if interest rates rise and cut off demand, as i've said, where are you?

developers can jingle mail with the best of them. you hate to rent, but good lord man, have some patience. if you decide to go ahead, good luck. but don't be proselytizing that some buildings here might not turn out frighteningly similar to some in miami. this is risk.

AR, numerous reasons. OBBP is the right place for my wife and I and now is the right time for us. She's a city girl and I was kind of ready for the burbs. OBBP is a perfect middle ground, one I didn't think I would find. Despite the number of units at OBBP, we really wanted a particular line and it is now sold out (we are in contract for the last unit in the line). We also have to move now as our lease is up (we had a two year lease in a co-op with a 2 year hard cap on rentals). So it was take the unit we want at OBBP or find another rental. I have a long time horizon in the unit so I want to lock in historically low interst rates now. As we discussed previously, over thirty years I will save $500,000 in interest costs by buying now (as compared to the probability of a 300 bps increase in rates over the next 3 years), which provides an tremendous amount of cushion to the possibility of price declines.

Is there risk? Sure, but there is risk in every decision. But we got a really competitive deal on our purchase that will also help us weather any future decline. No one has a crystal ball and we can weather a storm if and when it comes. I've done my due diligence and I am confident the building will succeed, though it probably will take longer than expected. This was no jingle mail decision. It was done over a period of months and substantial deliberation and research. May not be the right decision for some, but its the right decision for us. When the park starts to come on line, I think OBBP will do very, very well. As for the Miami possiblity, I spend a fair amount of time in Miami every year, and Manhattan/Brooklyn will not end up like Miami. The inventory difference alone makes it an apples to oranges comparison.

P.S. Harping on the interest rate issue? One day on one thread is not harping. Thanks for the luck!

gator, that's fine. but there is risk. it may be appropriate for you, but i wouldn't personally recommend it in this market. and i understand wanting the development where you are planning a purchase to succeed. but it does make you a bit biased. i really do hope it works out for you.

sorry for the harping comment.

and gator, that 300 bps? not overnight. plenty of units. usually cheapest for the last few unless you think demographics are going to change significantly in the next year or two or so.

Gator, your lengthy argument reminds me of only one saying: can't see the forest for the trees.
Seems most folks (a rough head count of at least 10!) on this thread can't get your point. You & spieler have turned yourselves into the only spokesmen for OBBP in not only this discussion but also all the OBBP threads started in the last three months. By comparison, take a look at the Forte thread to see what is a confident, supprotive, healthy & happy buyers community should be.
Could you plz do yourself a favor? Hold your defensive position for 5 mn and LISTEN to some of the fella here that don't sound extremely evil-willed to OBBP. I've been on SE for a while and recognize some rather objective voices from very seasoned RE buyers here. Would be your loss if you don't see their valuable insights in NYC Real Estate in general and in your building in particular.

ar, I agree it makes me a little biased and that's why I'm full disclosure about being in contract at OBBP. I do get a little aggravated by drive by posters whose sole mission seems to be to denigrate and disparage.

I appreciate your feedback and comments; its good to hear a contrary viewpoint. And no sweat on the harping comment...was just poking back a little.

gator, i can relate to that. i live in PCV after all, and choose to do so. i respect your choice, it's not the location, etc., that makes me pause (generally, although newer areas have more difficulties during downturns). just the economy. this would have done quite well if it could have finished he majority of closings by 2008. i'm still seeing sponsor sales in manhattan in buildings that started closings in 2006-07.

If half city half suburbs is your standard, I don't get why OBBP is the only option. Our family is a similar city mouse (me) - country mouse (wife) union. During our searching processus, we found 2bd 2bth condo (new conversion) in prime UWS for less than a million, 1600sf 3bd condo w. 800sf backyard in Park Slope (2 blocks to subway & 3 blocks to Prospect Park on charming tree lined st) whose price dropped from 1.8mm to 999k, detached house in Forest Hills (on the edge of the Gardens & 1.5 blocks from E/F express trains, which take 20 mn to Midtown Manhattan) for 800k (initial asking 1mm) w. $5 000 taxes/year ...

Mealie, we’re going to have to agree to disagree that the CCs at OBBP are too high unless you can provide me some comps that show similar amenities in similar buildings for a lower CC. I’ve done the research and I can’t find any. Oro has good amenities, and it has very competitive CCs (too competitive?) but I simply couldn’t consider that area. If that’s what you’re looking for good luck with it. By the way, the CCs will not increase because of unsold units. The sponsor has to pay the CCs on all unsold units.

Also, why do you think prices are outrageous? What units were you looking at and what price per sq ft were you quoted? Without any specifics it is difficult to make any assessment. I looked at several units at OBBP and the pricing varied from very competitive to reasonably good deal.

I am not worried about the impact of tax re-assessments. OBBP’s 15 year abatement and 20 year exemption will keep taxes well under control for a long time. By the way, AIG is RAL’s equity partner not the lead lender; that is Deutsche Bank. From what I hear the lender has a lot of confidence in the project, is happy with the current sales traction, and understands that the Park needs to start coming on line (which it will in 3-4 months) to continue to increase momentum. Prices may come down more, they may not. I do not think the property will end up with the bank.

As for the land lease, the rent is fixed for the first three years and then increases 3% per year. Considering that the land lease is 15% of the budget , it will not have an undue effect on yearly common charges. The land lease will not cause any huge leaps in CCs, it is predictable.
Regarding your comment that the building isn’t selling, it is selling and I’ve detailed that in other posts.

leom, I didn't say it was the only option, I said it was right for my wife and me. Why is it so hard for you to understand why someone would really like OBBP? 132 or so others have already (and many spending a lot more than me to do so), many more will. It is a unique property that will be tremendous when the Park comes online.

I doubt that the UWS conversion would have given me the square footage I need (I need space which is something OBBP really offers). I've lived in Forest Hills and I really like it but if I'm going to own a house than I moving to the burbs. Also as much as I like FH, I really prefer the Heights. My wife and I considered all of our options including some of the areas you mentioned; we are extremely happy with our choice. If you have a similar city/country mouse relationship, how did you decide on Forte?

"Finished the MAJORITY of closings by 2008"(ar)? I went there on a Sat in mid-Sept 2009 by misinformation, which was OH for rentals only (OH for sales should be on Sun.). However, the rental broker was kind enough to accomodate our request for viewing the apts, even though I told her we were looking to buy. At the end of the tour, she honestly admitted: the building was actually only 25% sold after starting sales 2 years ago, even though the sales team claimed a over streched 30%.
That was the first weekend for the 35% chop. Since then, they got 20 odd closed in 4 months... out of a total of 441 units.

leom, i don't really understand your last post, but it would be 20 odd closed in 4 months out of 331 (at 25% sold at least 110 units had already been sold). And as I've posted previously that doesn't fully reflect the sales since the price cuts because of the lag in closings (arguably only half of the sales have closed; it is not likely that any of the sales in the past 2 months have closed yet).

I really don't understand your fixation on the % sold at OBBP when you bought at Forte when it was a a similar pecentage as OBBP and it had been taken by the bank!

gator - I also like OBBP for its caracter. But in no way does it qualify for a financially sound building that most buyers would buy into in today's market.
re: our family situation, I like the restaurants/BAM/Mark Morris within two blocks of Forte, while my wife finds Fort Greene park & the historic townhouses charming and the one stop shopping at the suburban style Target convenient. A bit more disclosure for your eyes only: for merely 50k more than the 1400sf 2bd 18 line & exactly the same cc, we got exactly a country house in the sky (a 2000+ sf real 3bd combo) for our family of 3 w. one more on the way. :)

gator - B/c I could tell the new price at Forte was much more realistic. Not only the $/sf is 30% lower than comparable buildings in the area, but the total cost is low enough for people to get conforming loans. At the weekend showing (they cancelled the official OH b/c there's already more crowd than they could handle), offers were being put down on site every 30 mn by excited buyers. I calculated it would reach 50% sold w. 20 new closings only. (Here's my point why the percentage rather than the total units sold is more important). That was a totally different feeling. Since the bank had already taken over, there's no more risk of sponsor going bankrupt and abandonning the building. It's like buying a forclosed property in a much safer & easier way. There's also no excessive amenities for the cc to go much higher.

leom, thanks for sharing your thought process. I hope you and your family are very happy at Forte. And congratulations on the new addition to the family. What we have here are two families that made the right decisions for themselves. Hopefully we'll both be able to look back in 5, 10, 15 years and say we made excellent decisions. Whatever happens from a "investment" perspective, I'm sure we will both enjoy our homes (or castles!) tremendously. Best of luck leom, and if your ever in my neck of the woods, drop by.

Wake up, people. OBBP. Do your research on RAL.

Will this building ever be a good investment?
As the great Kinky F. once said: "I might propel myself to the moon, on my next fart -- but, that's not likely to happen, either."

Truth, sorry, but that's not a very helpful comment. I have no idea what'll happen to prices here, but let's say they drop 50% - still not a good investment? At some price, things will clear. Those saying things like "this building sucks" really just discredit themselves from the get-go.

leom, did you snag the b&c combo at Forte, or are you combining two neighboring units? No b/c pairs were left when I looked, and the other combinations didn't seem workable.

rooster - Don't want to talk about this in details on this thread. I can email you in private. :P

Someone who names themselves "Truth" usually will provide none.

I wonder if the purchasers in swig's developments wish they had had some additional info prior to buying. or if they would have ignored any cautionary tales.

but Im sure if i said I liked OBBP for no apparent reason, i wouldnt need to justify that. riiiiiight

marco, not true. I hope someone wouldn't come by and just try to pump OBBP or any building with unsupported opinion, i.e., "I went by OBBP and fell in love with it. I've seen many buildings and its the best by far. Ton of traffic at the open house, get there soon." Wouldn't give that post any more credence than I gave yours. But stick to your agenda. I may not be smart enough to know what it is, but I am smart enough to know you have one.

ar, I've done my research on the building, the area, and the developer. I'm always looking for more information pro and con. You can never have too much information. That being said some information deserves more wait than other information.

my agenda is plain and simple. pay as little as possible for a property. time is on my side...i dont have to buy, but some people have to sell

just be careful, gator. buying new development is always somewhat risky. buying in a development that has so few sales is doubly risky. buying in such a development when there is a fair chance of further economic upheaval is triply risky. i'm just as much of a bear as w67th, but i don't always see buying as a bad idea, depending on the goals and circumstances. for new development, i'd be damned sure i was one of the last few to buy, and the development at my time of purchase wasn't full of renters/flippers.

you may have higher risk tolerance, just buy with your eyes wide open. my public service announcement is now at its end.

wow, I need to proof my posts better. I can hear the grammar police now.

ar, I certainly appreciate all you said. To get the unit we want at OBBP we could not wait, so we decided to move forward, but only after looking at other places, considering another rental, etc. I was a long, deliberative, informed process (fitting with my profession). While I too am bearish on real estate generally over the next 3-5 years, my expectation is not another 20+ percent down. Rather I see 0-10% depending on the particular building and unit. Our time horizon and the deal we struck make me confident that we will end up well ahead of the game by the time I'm ready to sell or pass it to my children.

Gator... My husband and I were quoted over $1,000 per sqft for the townhouse units and compare that to the 500-700 per sqft you can pay for other apartments that are MUCH better located than the OBBP. Further, you can buy new construction apartments with full amenity packages in prime areas of Manhattan for less than 1,000 per sqft with more competitive common charges. That is why it is outrageous. There is no reason for OBBP to be charging more per sqft on sales price and common charges than prime Manhattan apartments.

"my agenda is plain and simple. pay as little as possible for a property. time is on my side...i dont have to buy, but some people have to sell"

marco, is this why you start a thread about a building and then say "place sucks"?

no. in this case I saw the add for 30% off and was wondering if that was new..then I tossed in my opinion..just look at the beginning of the thread

so, concernedbuyer1 = marco_m? Weird.

damn now my covers blown. hahahah

your cover (and others) was blown a few days ago

"Being a Clavin is annoying...using multiple SE handles to agree with yourself is delusional.."

Oh,especially when it comes to RAL, I give you the Truth. But, you don't have to take me at my word -- do the research. Google RAL Companies and Affiliates, page-search as far back as you can. Pay attention to OBBP articles, and what RAL has been quoted on, particularly prices, and reductions.

Then, look around OBBP: No retail (RAL is quoted stating it was coming soon, and that was several years ago.) He finally reduced prices (still not by a sufficient amount); and now there are rental units in what was offered as a Condo.

Have you read RAL's record, at The Office Of The Attorney General re: Franklin Tower, in Tribeca? Do you think that The Attorney General is lying to you, too?!
Take a look at RAL's newly updated website. You won't see Franklin Tower listed there. Up until I pointed it out to him, personally last year -- RAL's website had not been updated since 2004. At that time Franklin Tower was included on his list of conversions/developments; with glowing descriptions of the fine job RAL did there.
RAL's website did not, however, mention that he cut corners on Franklin Tower, and was forced to pay the owners a One Million Dollar restitution for sticking them with units in building where:

The windows were not properly installed and were leaking.
There was not sufficient fire-proofing installed.
The A/C system was leaking.
Oh, and Look out below! -- the bricks were falling off the building's facade.

And, that's just at Franklin Tower. Sound good to you?
There are also contractors, that have done work for RAL. They have plenty to say about him (none of it good).

sorry to dissapoint you moxie, but all the other negative opinions are not from me and my twin concerned.

and my opinion is that the building is crap in a crap area still stands. xoxo

No agenda marco . . . I mean concernedbuyer?! Whatever.

"sorry to dissapoint you moxie, but all the other negative opinions are not from me and my twin concerned."

Sorry, pretty tough to take you at your word at this point.

moxie, nice work - sorry I missed it the first time around.

could not care less. again..my agenda is that Im a buyer who is of the opinion that NYC real estate is still way overpriced and is going lower.

* adding Moxie's link to favorites.

you know what they say about opinions? their just like assholes everybody's got one. and that's kind of the point everybody's got 1..multiple aliases created to agree with or reiterate your own opinion is something you would do to further an "agenda".
as far as being a "buyer" i'm afraid you can't qualify yourself as that either. if you go shopping at a clothing store everyday to look at a particular pair of pants you like, try them on, then go to the cashier and tell him"these are waaay overpriced" then walk out without purchasing are you a buyer? If you stand out in front of the store and yell at everyone who has bought a pair of those pants "you didn't buy those pants did you? there ugly and way overpriced" are you a buyer? Now you may be lucky and find those pants discounted someday and get a chance to spend what you want (it was your agenda when haggling with the cashier and castigating departing customers) or you just might see those pants sell out.
Good luck with your transparent agenda.......browser(not buyer)

bjw: Hope the info I provided above, is more helpful to you. mealie has also given helpful info.

To gator: RAL loves people like you. Although I did not insult you, you sure did get nasty and offensive to me. RAL has another special cup of RAL Kool-Aid, waiting for you. Drink up.

You will never see RAL inside, or outside Franklin Tower; that's for sure!

Thanks Truth, I'll take a look. I'm not particularly interested in living at 1BBP but would like to see it and the parks succeed. For the life of me, I can't understand why some people just log on to slag a building and anyone expressing interest in something them deem so worthless. Much less creating (at least) two screen names on an anonymous internet message board to do so.

bjw: It's the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth!

the creation of my second screen name was so the developers im currently in negotiation with wouldnt know it was me posting certain questions. now I dont care anymore. they can see me comin. i see my own silliness.

Laughing @ marco_m right now. Unit increased 25% in less than a year.