Question about Board Approval Process

"Given the current market, how much consideration do you think we'll get from the average coop board? Will they just look at our $90K and go "Um....I don't think so..." or do you think we'll get some flexibility?"

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I'm a co-op board vice president.

What kind of "flexibility" are you looking for?

Are you going to apply for a $250K mortgage based on your wife's "expected" new earnings? If so, don't expect much flexibility there, unless you can provide to us a letter from her employer stating that she is, in fact, guaranteed to get a $50-60K income boost once you've moved here.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not worried about qualifying for the mortgage -- we're already pre-qualified. It's just the board approval. My wife would be able to provide proof of her hourly rate of pay and I'm sure we could get a letter from her employer stating that she's a full-time employee, that there are no restrictions on her hours that would prevent her from meeting that level of income, etc. We may have access to some additional funds that would bring our mortgage down as low as $150K. We're investigating that now.

Again, our credit score is impeccable. We don't spend money we don't have. My wife has been with her employer for over 20 years, and I'm employed by a very large, well established corporation as well (PepsiCo). In your opinion would we be better off renting for a year or two in order to establish a level of annual income that you'd be more comfortable with? Or would our credit and employment history make it possible to have some room for discussion?

"Thanks for the feedback. I'm not worried about qualifying for the mortgage -- we're already pre-qualified. It's just the board approval."

Yes, I realize that. You also realize that "pre-approval" with mortgage companies is basically worthless, yes?

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My wife would be able to provide proof of her hourly rate of pay and I'm sure we could get a letter from her employer stating that she's a full-time employee, that there are no restrictions on her hours that would prevent her from meeting that level of income, etc."

"No restrictions" on her hours is very different from "guaranteed hours". If you're coming to us telling us she earns "X", we're going to need proof from her employer, either through copies of previous years' tax returns, pay stubs, or a letter from her supervisor confirming that she actually makes "X", not that she has the "ability" or has "no restrictions" on making "X".

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"Again, our credit score is impeccable. We don't spend money we don't have. My wife has been with her employer for over 20 years, and I'm employed by a very large, well established corporation as well (PepsiCo). In your opinion would we be better off renting for a year or two in order to establish a level of annual income that you'd be more comfortable with? Or would our credit and employment history make it possible to have some room for discussion?"

I'm not telling you what to do. But what I am saying is that if you are applying for an apartment with financials reflecting a $140K household income, we're going to need to see a track record of your having earned $140K, or a letter from your employers *guaranteeing* you'll be earning a combined $140K.

If you can bring that mortgage down to a level where you can demonstrate you can afford your monthly mortgage and maintenance at the income level you are currently earning, so much the better.

Of course, there is no "discussion" with the board -- we review your board package and decide whether or not to move forward with the interview. Financials play an enormous part of that decision. We'll be looking not only at your income, but also any other debt you might be carrying (school loans, credit cards, etc.). And of course, most boards require letters of recommendation as well as personal and professional references, all of which enter into our deliberations.

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Our current total debt is under $7K, including a car loan. Since we know how useless a car is in the city we'll be selling it before we move. The recommendations and references won't be a problem. It does sound like we might find it easier to rent for the first couple of years.

Thanks again for your feedback; it's been very helpful.

You're welcome.

Good luck.

You probably want to rent for a year or two to feel out the neighborhoods where you'd be buying. By then, your wife's income should no longer be "expected" and prices might come down a bit.

For instance, I was considering Brooklyn until I heard that MTA service cuts would mean discontinued busses in the area. This means prices should plummet in that area and it would take me 30 mins longer to get to work.

"You probably want to rent for a year or two to feel out the neighborhoods where you'd be buying. By then, your wife's income should no longer be "expected" and prices might come down a bit."

Excellent suggestion.

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"For instance, I was considering Brooklyn until I heard that MTA service cuts would mean discontinued busses in the area. This means prices should plummet in that area and it would take me 30 mins longer to get to work."

Again, something only someone who's already hear would know.

"HERE", that is. ;)

Thanks, we're pretty focused on the UES and UWS, mainly because my mom lives on the UWS and also because there are some really good elementary schools in both neighborhoods. She's elderly and we want to be close to her, even if it means sacrificing some square footage and a bedroom. We don't want her to have to travel too far to visit us. Plus I lived on the UWS for years and I know the UES really well too, and our daughter really loves the museums (imagine having a 7-year-old who loves museums!).

Thanks for the heads up about Brooklyn; we were looking at Park Slope as well. We really don't want to have to keep a car so good mass transit is a must.

We still need to do some homework on rentals; it's been awhile since I rented in Manhattan. I know, for example, that newer buildings aren't subject to rent stabilization. We also have to make sure that rentals in our likely price range aren't crap.

"we're pretty focused on the UES and UWS, mainly because my mom lives on the UWS and also because there are some really good elementary schools in both neighborhoods."

Keep a close eye on what's going on in the schools here before you make a purchase decision based on a zoned school. The overcrowding has shut out many kids from their own zoned schools, and the city is sending them instead to other schools throughout the city -- even outside Manhattan.

No kidding, wow. We'll see what we can find out about the schools we're focused on, thanks!

Indeed.

New York has become a victim of its own success.

Rudy Giuliani made the city "familiy-friendly", and now, go figure, there's an influx of children that the city was not equipped to handle.

Will we get reliable information by contacting the schools directly? Or do you have a suggestion for a better way for us to check into this? Our daughter is in a great school now and we'd hate ourselves if we pulled her out and moved 1,400 miles and she ended up in a bad school situation.

Well, it never hurts to be informed. Call the schools first, but I'd also suggest scanning the plethora of New York City school/parents discussion boards. I don't have a child, but I'm hearing all these horror stories from friends with kids.

Thanks, we're already utilizing a couple of those sites (e.g. www.insideschools.org) as well as the Dept. of Ed's web site, and will dig some more. My wife is going to make some calls. This one thing could force us to rethink our plans. Man!

"This one thing could force us to rethink our plans. Man!"

Oh yes.

You can imagine there are quite a few pissed-off parents sitting in their multi-million dollar lofts in TriBeCa, fuming over the fact that their kids AREN'T going to P.S. 234.

you can use this site (http://maps.nycboe.net/) to see what schools are in the zones, to narrow your search. then call the schools to find out what will happen.

as for $500K, a large 1 br is what you'll be realistically looking at.

We've been looking at P.S. 199, P.S 87 and P.S. 9 on the West Side, and P.S. 290, P.S. 183 and (longshot) P.S. 6 on the East Side. I like the East Side choices because they all feed into Wagner J.H.S., plus it looks like you can get a little more apartment for your money there.

At least those millionaire parents probably have the option of private school. We really don't and I'm a believer in public school anyway.

Good for you for supporting the public schools.

But again, from what I'm aware, parents are being told that it's no longer a "given" that their kids will go to a certain school just because of where they live.

P.S. 9 is at 84% of capacity so I think we're good there, but we're going to contact the school to make sure. The UES schools are all over 100% which means that side of town is probably off the table for us. At least my mom will be happy since P.S. 9 is only a few blocks from her place. We'd just move in with her except for a) she's zoned for P.S. 84, which isn't so hot and b) she doesn't want us living WITH her, just NEAR her.

:-)

I'm hearing good things about P.S. 173.

The one in Queens? Looks like a good school but over 100% capacity. There's another 173, in Washington Heights, but that one doesn't sound so hot.

P.S. 199 (Lincoln Center area) is only at 55% capacity, and P.S. 9 is going to have more available space this year and next because the middle school is moving out of the building.

P.S. 199 isn't 55% capacity, where did you hear that? Don't go by insideschools. PS9 isn't crowded.

We did get those numbers from InsideSchools; maybe it's old data (?). It sounds like a nice school; we can contact them to get better info. Our daughter would love P.S. 9 because it's 3 blocks from the AMNH.

Both PS199 and PS87 face the specter of capping enrollment this fall. Both overcrowded. Google around. P.S. 9 is good (talk to W81) but I think the G&T scores may skew the picture of the school a little. If you're moving this summer, get your kid tested for G&T - I think the DOE has a special procedure for kids who move. If you get into a G&T program, it will change the picture yet again.

I looked at the "55%" number you got from insideschools. That number hasn't been accurate for many years, if ever.

Good to know on all that, thanks. We will inquire about G&T testing for transfers from out of state. We'll also contact P.S. 199 directly to try to get more accurate info. Another school we had looked at was P.S. 166, but from what we read it sounded like if your kid wasn't in the G&T program then it's like they don't exist. Not an atmosphere we'd want.

Economistis: "For instance, I was considering Brooklyn until I heard that MTA service cuts would mean discontinued busses in the area. This means prices should plummet in that area and it would take me 30 mins longer to get to work."

There are some cuts on several low-volume lines but this hardly affects the entire Brooklyn "area." What neighborhood are you talking about, and is there no subway alternative?

i know it's not in your target neighborhood, but you might want to consider the northernish border of PS40. the only alternative the BOE would have for rezoning in the event of overcrowding would currently be 116 (also good), or a new school. also in a very good middle school zone.

That neighborhood is very nice, Gramercy Park area, etc. We have some concerns about the middle school though. What is your take on some of the parent comments about violence?

http://insideschools.org/index12.php?fs=43&str=104&formtype=name&all=y#schoolCommentBoxAnchor

it certainly isn't consistent with what i've observed in the neighborhood. or of the kids that i see from the school. i would have more concerns, frankly, with the ues middle school option. although either would work.

i have a kid in a private school. but i live in the ps40 area. people here are very committed to public school. they have to be, many of them, this is still a middle class public school area. although with plenty of wealthier people. it's nice. it works for the kids, generally.

LOL, I graduated from that UES middle school. OK, it was in 1974 but....

We did see some nice apartments in the east 20s. We'd like to be closer to Central Park but who wouldn't, I suppose. We'll do some more checking on those schools.

jjkatz, funny. your prices, purchase-wise, will be lower on the UES than anywhere else with a decent school. rentals the differentiation will be less.

the only reason i tout the gramercy/lower murray hill area is there really isn't much they can do to move you around in the near term. and once you get in, it tends to be harder to move you around.

Thanks everyone, this has been a very helpful (even if initially discouraging) thread.

if you want to look at school rankings/grades, i would advise you to stay away from insideschools. go to schooldigger.com. i've seen schools on insideschools get fantastic recommendations when the schools were being put on the "Need Improvement" list. you can also check greatschools.com. G&T is the best option of course.

Thanks. Yeah, one thing I noticed on InsideSchools is that a lot of the weaker schools had reviews that sounded like PR. "P.S. ___ is rising to the challenge of [blah blah blah]...." etc. Our daughter is a good candidate for G&T and we will contact the DOE to find out how/when we can get that done in advance of the new school year.

Here in New York, the "G&T" has come to be known as the "Gratified & enTitled" program.

Back in my day it was "Special Progress" and didn't start until junior high. They call it G&T here in Texas also. Anyone know anything about the Bayard school (P.S. 158) on the UES?

I was speaking specifically about Sheepshead Bay, it's a mile walk to the subway from the bay area, but I heard similar about several bus lines in inner Brooklyn. I just wanted to point out an example of something you couldn't learn easily from out of state & would have a tremendous impact on pricing and desirability.

I am looking in the same price range as jjkatz in UWS. I've seen several dozen apartments that are either in poor condition or not priced at the level I'd be willing to pay. Considering that the properties won't appreciate anytime soon, I think I should wait things out a bit save a little more money and go for a 2bedroom.

So far I really liked one 1bdrm apartment at 200 West 79th. I bid 10% below ask and was told there's an offer above asking for that apartment. I'm still in shock.

Someone offered above asking in this market?? Wow, I could raise my down payment by contacting them and telling them about the deal I have on the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge....

I am not sure if it was a gimmick by the seller's broker or someone actually offered that level.

It's still listed as for sale on SE:
07/11/2008 Previously Listed by Prudential Elliman at $649,000.
09/17/2008 Delisted temporarily by Prudential Elliman. Last priced at $619,000.
01/21/2010 Listed by Prudential Elliman at $559,000.

I can't wait to see where it closes!

They'll keep it listed until closing; that's SOP. They may even keep showing it after it goes under contract. Deals fall through. I think I know the apartment you mean, by the way; I saw it on the NYT web site. It was pretty nice looking. We're three people (my daughter, wife and me) and while we'd love a 2 BR we know we can't afford one, not in Manhattan anyway. We're trying to embrace the Murphy bed idea. We're looking at JR 4s and 1 BRs with a living room large enough to live and sleep in. We may be able to rent a legit 2 BR but no chance on buying one unless prices drop even further.