Is it crazy to put a Blue Star all gas range with 22K burners in NYC apartment?

I know someone with a Blue Star in a NYC co-op...he joked it could melt cast iron. Seems a bit over the top though. I hear Wolf is great, and Viking I've not heard great things about from friends.

i has a 6 burner thermador; required special wiring/hood/gas sofit ... $7k -- i only used it to make toast. on thanksgiving, it broke (the computer)... Go pretty and simple

didnt david brooks describe these things as looking like upside down flaming rocket launchers.....

I'm putting a BlueStar in soon. I wouldn't install one with out a powerful vented range hood, though.

It's supposed to be a fantastic range -- definitely the one the appliance salesmen geek out on. Plus, if you like color, you can't beat the options.

You should only install one if all you know how to make is pasta. If you know how to actually cook, don't get one.

Somewhereelse: Please explain. I'd be interested in hearing more from you or anyone else who has actually cooked on one.

SWE's point is that the only real use for such a high output burner is to boil water faster.

Not true. (Though I can't say I wouldn't like to boil water faster!) For example, I am told the ranges are popular among people who do a lot of Asian cooking -- they're open burners and you can take off the grate and set a wok directly on them. Plus, a lot of true commercial ranges are rated up to 25,000 BTUs. I have a hard time believing restaurant chefs only use them to boil water.

is it crazy to take this cab to the airport?

http://www.photorepetto.com/Extreme%20Sport/CAR%20IMAGES/Hummer_Limusine_4F0S9335.jpg

that's the way if feel about spending $22k on this, it's more than what i'd imagine almost anybody needs. an excess...

Er, 22K refers to BTUs, not to price.

I had a dacor.. i loved it!

BlueStars are cheaper than Vikings, actually.

Anyone else have any well-informed opinions to share?

I just put a client in a rental apartment with a Vulcan, and they're pretty happy with it so far. Vikings and Wolfs, as far as my clients tell me, both break fairly often. I haven't had any experience with Blue Star, but I do wonder, if you want that kind of horsepower (being metaphorical here) why not just buy an induction cooktop? They're energy efficient and I think they look more modern. I have cooked on an induction Wolf and they're fantastic, both very fast and very responsive.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

I have a Wolf and can speak to its quality. One can control the amount of flame with a great level of detail. Can bring a big pot of water to boil it what seems like a mere minute.

Not a gourmet chef by any stretch of the imagination but I still appreciate all the bells and whistles.

I would echo a previous poster's comment about a great hood with strong ventilation. These high end ovens and stove tops have the capacity to put out an incredible amount of heat so you need to match that with strong ventilation. Two burners on full blast can be a lot for a smallish Manhattan Apartment.

My hood has a simple re-circulation component rather then true ventilation to the outside and it is insufficient to handle the heat.

Er, 22K refers to BTUs, not to price.
------

lol, sorry about that. just checked, they are really cheap! (about 10% of that 22k)

Ventilation systems that are appropriate for high-output burners typically have the motors and main fans on the outside, and even then require industrial-strength noise-blocking earwear. If you live in a townhouse, you can probably put that in. Otherwise the motor is in your kitchen, right at ear level.

For high-temp cooking with oil, I'd also want a commercial fire-extinguishing system built into the range hood (as required by code in restaurants).

Enjoy.

We have a GE Signature high end range and it is awesome - no issues in 3 years of HEAVY use.

the short answer to OP is "YES", unless this is a huge apartment with a huge kitchen.

"Somewhereelse: Please explain. I'd be interested in hearing more from you or anyone else who has actually cooked on one."

Miette, I was just joking about $20k stoves and the people who seem to buy them.

alanhart and ab_11218: Vikings and similar apparently have 18,000 BTU burners. We're not talking about a fundamentally different type of range here -- though granted, the BlueStar emits about 20% more heat when those particular burners (two of the four) are turned all the way up. (Restaurant burners apparently go up to 36K BTUs -- I misspoke above.)

That said, I wouldn't install a Viking or Wolf either without a hood and a decent-sized fire extinguisher nearby, without having fire-rated wallboard (cement board?) on surrounding walls, or without making sure that any flammable cabinetry or other surfaces are placed outside the manufacturer-specified zone.

"I know someone with a Blue Star in a NYC co-op...he joked it could melt cast iron."

Why would anyone need that kind of heat to cook FOOD?

Again, I pose the question: What meals can you only prepare on high-end ranges that you can't prepare on a $500 Hotpoint range?

That seems like a lot of trouble, expense and over- the-top power for family cooking. I am a decent cook, and have been thrilled to bits by the GE 5 burner we installed in our kitchen. It would be nice to have 2 ovens and a separate top; next kitchen, I guess. I would avoid the fancy brands that are finicky and require expensive and frequent maintenance.

In our kitchen remodel we installed a Wolf professional style oven and the corresponding (code required) range hood because we liked the look and assumed the function would at least equal the residential style models. The oven itself was pricey but the major cost was retrofitting the ceiling to install the hood (which requires exterior exhaust.) Our oven looks great and works fine but I'm not convinced it was worth the expense and trouble. My biggest complaint about the Wolf system is the ridiculously long pre-heating times for the ovens and stove-top griddle. (Allowing at least 15 minutes to preheat to 350 degrees seems excruciatingly long at times.)

I had a Blue Star at my old place. Great range--not only is it more powerful than Viking/Wolf on high, but I found that it simmered a lot better too; the flame could get really low. I'd recommend it if you're thinking about a gas range. If I was buying a range now though I'd try to get induction. Love how it works.

To those asking why you would need this heat, it is useful to precisely prepare food. You can have more control over pan temperature and go to very high temperatures (do not melt your pans, please -- this happened to a friend of mine). The reason you might use very high temperatures is to sear the outside of something while leaving the inside raw or something like that. Yes, you can get similar results with less power, but the amount of heat available makes a huge difference in this. This really is a case of more=better.

If you are cooking with Betty Crocker and The Joy of Cooking, you do not need this equipment.

BTW: I saw a Jean-Georges interview once where he said that the best piece of equipment he'd put in recently was actually an induction burner -- not to cook on, but specifically to boil water quickly.

That's why it amazes me that they don't make dual-fuel ranges, and even cooktops, that are all gas, plus one 3600W induction burner. Induction is supposed to be best for simmering, too, by the way.

But I decided that induction cooking will eventually be found to be cancer-causing. Magnets, electricity, magic heatless heat, crystals, pyramids, more magnets. It's so obvious.

Natural gas pressure is notoriously low in NYC. Most plumbers don't even install the pressure regulators which come with the appliances.

Many people complain that the bigger burners don't work that well at very low settings when trying to simmer. Part of the problem is that the controls were designed with higher gas pressures, and it's common to for the burner to go out on a very low setting in NYC...

Relatively speaking 22K isn't going to need too much gas, but you could be constrained if you are trying to use most/all of the burners at once.

"If you are cooking with Betty Crocker and The Joy of Cooking, you do not need this equipment."

That would probably be 99.993% of all home cooks.

For that other 0.007% of the time, you could just go to a restaurant. $22,000 buys a lot of restaurant meals.

Apparently it needs to be said again: The range does not cost $22k! Two of the burners are rated 22k BTUs -- that was the reference in the title of the thread.

"But I decided that induction cooking will eventually be found to be cancer-causing. Magnets, electricity, magic heatless heat, crystals, pyramids, more magnets. It's so obvious."

Yes, but the flip side is its easier to talk to the aliens.

I had a 4-burner Wolf in the apt we sold last year. The kitchen was a small galley (with a window) with no outside vent allowed so we had one of those non-vented microwaves with a fan over the stove -- with no problems. We had the stove for about 10 years and had to have the electronic burner ignition fixed a couple of times (both times my fault because I boiled over something that flooded and shorted out the switch) but given its daily use (I cook a lot) over 10 years, I didn't think this was too bad.

When we moved I so wish I could have taken it with me and our repair guy said we would have had that stove forever. Who knew you could miss an appliance?

Since I've just come from 10 years of cooking on a Wolf and am currently using a perfectly fine $500 Maytag in our temporary rental while we renovate our new place -- I can tell you the difference: The Maytag takes twice as long to boil water. Only one burner has any power and even with that I can't do a proper sear on a piece of fish or a steak. The simmer levels of the burners aren't really simmer, only "low." The individual grates on the burners don't let me move the pans over the top of the stove to further control the cooking. The gradations of burners limit me to the stove's definitions of high, medium, low. The teflon-like coating on the metal grates cause the pans to slip (one slipped right off onto the floor).

However its oven does a nice job and the broiler is excellent -- but one complaint here, too: I can't adjust the rack under the broiler whereas in my Wolf I could move the rack up and down anywhere from only 1.5" below the heat source to as remote as 14".

The Wolf wasn't self-cleaning but was in fact very easy to clean. The Maytag has self-cleaning, which I won't use as I think they're dangerous, but trying to clean its oven with old fashioned oven cleaner is nearly impossible and the enamel flakes off (probably from the previous tenant using the self-cleaning feature).

I've never cooked on a Blue Star but they have a fabulous reputation, lots of power and they look fabulous.

"But I decided that induction cooking will eventually be found to be cancer-causing. Magnets, electricity, magic heatless heat, crystals, pyramids, more magnets. It's so obvious."

Actually, the real danger of microwave cooking (which I'm assuming you're making a reference to), is that the heat is generated from within the food itself by radiation that in turn changes the chemical composition of the food molecules, creating "free radicals", or oxidants, which are known to cause cancer, and which we try to combat by eating foods loaded with ANTI-oxidants. (The great irony here is that when you microwave foods that are rich in anti-oxidants, like fresh vegetables, you no longer kill their anti-oxidant properties, but actually turn them into oxidated poisons.)

Induction works on much the same principal, but the heat comes from within the cooking vessel itself, rather than the food. You've successfully heated the pot -- perhaps even changing the chemical composition of is molecules -- but the heat itself is just as natural as the heat from a flame. Cooking food in this manner would be the same as on a conventional stove. And unless you're consuming the cooking vessel itself, induction cooking doesn't carry the same health risks as microwave cooking.

For a consistent low temperature on a gas stove, Craig Claiborne recommends a thing called a flame-tamer. They're a flat plate of cast iron that goes over the cooking grate, and cost just a few bucks at cooking stores -- I think we got ours at Sur La Table.

That creates the perfect temp for simmer, and even more importantly, for carmelizing onions.

ali r.

Correction: (The great irony here is that when you microwave foods that are rich in anti-oxidants, like fresh vegetables, you KILL their anti-oxidant properties, but actually turn them into oxidated poisons.)

First, a performance cooktop is different and can do things that a Hotpoint can't. Searing is a good example. Speed of heating is another. More even distribution of heat to larger diameter pots is another. Try using a 14" skillet on your old Caloric 5-8,000 BTU burner. The edges will never get evenly heated.

Second, there are things you must take into consideration before going the "pro" or "commercial" route in a residential kitchen. (a) The burners will be wider than many small diameter pots which may be hard to use on the cooktop. A 3" wide little pan you may like for melting butter will not be easy to use because flames will be licking up all around it. (b) These cooktops throw off a lot of heat against the backsplash, whatever is above the burners and in the kitchen generally. If you cannot have a functioning hood to vent the heat and smoke, you at least need a window. If you have only a hood that disperses the heat upward to your ceiling in a closed kitchen, you aren't going to be happy. (c) If you are installing a microwave above such a stove, the only convecting microwaves capable of taking the heat are the Dacor or Viking--check them out and make sure this works for you because there are no other options if you want a convection microwave over the range. The Dacor's thermostat was said to be set too low and the noisy venting fan automatically clicked on too often according to some reports as of 2008--not sure if model is updated. (d) Repairs in NYC are a nightmare so buy a brand that has a good service history. In practice, you just aren't going to see much of a difference between a functioning pro/commercial Wolf, Viking, Thermador, Blue Star, etc. Get the one that doesn't break. (e) Cleaning! Be sure the model you get can be cleaned. Open burners will never be clean and you have to be ready to live with that look. The reason people get open burners is that simmer flames stay lit better. Closed burners are harder to keep lit and some manufacturers come up with clever ways to address this, For example, Thermador solves this by relighting the "x-tra low simmer" flame every 15 seconds or something which works great but makes a clicking noise you have to deal with. Other brands just don't address this and the result is that low flames just go out and drive you nuts. (f) Whatever backsplash you choose, be sure it can get VERY VERY hot because it will. Sheets of glass (even tempered) will often shatter; stainless pressed up against ceramic to the sides can expand when hot and crack ceramic/glass tiles if a 1-2mm gap isn't left between the stainless backsplash and the tiles to its sides.

My bottom line: As someone who enjoys really cooking, I love having a pro-style range and get a lot of use from the added versatility the high-BTU burners offer. I can cook quite well on an old Maytag, but it doesn't compare to the fun I have on the pro range I got about a year ago. A great photographer can make wonderful pix with a pinhole camera and doesn't NEED a $7000 Nikon, but you don't see many great photographers toting around Kodak Brownies. They use pro equipment because it adds creative options. A pro stove is the same--it adds options.

Said it all.

Bears repeating, the bit about the backsplash. The manufacturer's website will have an installation manual specifying how far flammable material has to be from the sides and top, how much wider the hood has to be than the stove, etc.

A few years ago I checked out the 24" Blue Star (or maybe Five Star?) and decided to just keep my 30" 30-year-old landlord-grade stove. Any decade now it'll look retro, with its attached upper oven.

NYCMAtt: you have repeated a ridiculous urban myth about the radiation/anit-oxidants/etc and nonsense "dangers" of eating microwaved food. The radiation in a microwave has nothing to do with cancer causing radiation like the kind you find in an atom bomb. It is the kind of radiation that causes heat and light to emanate from your computer screen or a light bulb. Actually, there is some evidence that the faster cooking times for microwaved food decreases the nutritional value LESS than traditional cooking methods. The your-microwave-is-poisoning-your-food nuts are the same people who put their kids lives in danger by not vaccinating them because of baseless, disproven fears that vaccinations cause autism. Of course, no one can scientifically establish such a connection (see recent British medical journal The Lancet's disavowal of bogus "research" showing connection between vaccination and autism) but that of course doesn't stop some people from creating a bunch of drama without scientific foundation. I have to go enjoy my vitamin rich microwaved sweet potato now. By.

"NYCMAtt: you have repeated a ridiculous urban myth about the radiation/anit-oxidants/etc and nonsense "dangers" of eating microwaved food. The radiation in a microwave has nothing to do with cancer causing radiation like the kind you find in an atom bomb."

I never said it was.

I said the radiation changes the chemical composition of the food, thereby causing digestive problems in a body that doesn't recognize it as "food" in its natural state. These digestive problems then lead to a host of other problems, including hormonal imbalances, that can trigger cancer.

"The your-microwave-is-poisoning-your-food nuts are the same people who put their kids lives in danger by not vaccinating them because of baseless, disproven fears that vaccinations cause autism."

Yeah, just like those "nuts" who refused thalidomide as an antiemetic during pregnancy in the '50s and '60s over "baseless, disproven fears" that the drug caused birth defects in babies.

Microwaves are toxic like thalidomide now? Is there some source other than a grain-munchers journal you are basing this on? Like something based on actual scientific research?

matt, you should just stay at home. never go out. do NOT, i repeat, do NOT eat at any restaurants unless you have inspected their kitchens. i've heard many use microwave ovens in their food preparation.

Now Matt knows that Kyle is a Stalinist.

matt is convinced that the USSR had microwaves during lenin's tenure, so clearly KW is a leninist.

Counter-revolutionary Trotskyite!

Is there a 36" over the range microwave capable of venting the Wolf 36" Professional Gas Cooktop? The kitchen is large with a window, but we cannot vent to the outside and want to avoid delays with building review of appliances by not even submitting this choice if there is no way to vent it.

Still, the only options for over the range microwaves with convection are the Viking and Dacor. With the Wolf going full throttle, it is going to get VERY VERY hot in that kitchen. The "venting" microwave will be heavily taxed and probably get too hot in the end. At the very least, mount the microwave as high above the stove as possible (you should still be able to see inside it). The extra few inches will help.

I think in most kitchens the Wolf is too much. Without a true hood I would not get it.

Thanks Kylewest - the cook in the family who requested the Wolf (not me, I would have no idea what to do with it and can barely operate a microwave) agrees; we are going to do a true hood.

I had a six burner Wolf for 15 years and loved it. But it was in a house and it was vented outside. I now have a four burner Bertazzoni and has klywest states, if you can't get a strong vent don't waste your money. The hood is really important or your kitchen will get very hot and the vent will be pretty much useless. I unfortunately have a galley kitchen with no windows.

I installed the Blue Star in a recent kitchen renovation. It's a wonderful range and the only one for home use with open burners. The Wolf, Viking, Garland used to be open but now use sealed burners that are not nearly as sensitive. Garland no longer manufactures home ranges. This permits you to regulate the flame to extremely low levels without extinguishing the flame. I opted for the optional grill top, but must admit it is difficult to clean. A high power (minimally 600 CFM, preferably higher) vented hood is an absolute must. Don't even think about doing without it. Good Luck!

Other than wok cooking (or true grilling, which is a huge mess and usually a disappointment), there's absolutely no need for that kind of power in a cooktop. If you can bring more electricity in, I'd go with two regular gas burners and two 220v induction hobs. Plus a consumer range or ovens with "true" convection. There are plenty available.

Don't fall for the silly "professional" appliances marketing crap. Plus they'll look dated in no time, because they're not professional equipment and the cook in your family is not a professional cook.

Also, you either can vent to the outside or you can't. If you can't, it doesn't matter that your getting a "real hood" instead of OTR. You'll be miserable, and that's that ... kiss high-temp cooking goodbye. See if you can vent out the top of the window in a manner acceptable to the building and to your aesthetic tastes.

PS: Professional-style high-CFM range hoods are deafeningly loud. More misery.

There's always take-out.

By the way, we're not bigots: we had a professional cook when I was growing up, and she was practically a member of the family.

I know Aboutready commented helpfully on this thread 4 years ago, but maybe when she gets back from her vacation she could let us know what type of range and other appliances she put into her kitchen when she renovated her rental at Peter Cooper Village. Certainly the standard PCV kitchen like all her neighbors had wasn't going to be sufficient while she bided her time to be eligible for the lawsuit.

AH - I am fascinated by appliance discussions and have no independent thoughts on the matter. The cook in our family is my mother-in-law and she is pretty amazing so I am happy to do the legwork and logistics to give her whatever cooking appliances she wants. She is not thrilled about not being able to vent to the outside and agrees that the 600cfm hood with some sort of kit that she has chosen is not ideal, but she maintains that the wolf has magic abilities with flame control or something like that that she loves. She is not going to be living in the place full time and I suspect the for the vast majority if people, (that may well include my mother-in-law), the Wolf is overkill, but we all have places where our choices are not the most sensible. The Wolf is the only thing in the whole apartment she cares about, so that's where we are. She does seem aware of the drawbacks because she has asked a lot of questions about the smoke alarms . . .

Also, the building architect will nix the option if code requires outside venting.

Congratulations NYCNovice - looks like you found an apartment you love !!

Midtown East?

Thanks PH41! We actually did, but the Wolf is going into an apt for my in-laws in different city. Our new place barely has room for toaster oven.

We installed a Vent-a-Hood ventless hood in a kitchen (with tall ceilings and windows) over a high-end residential range. It looks like it vents to the exterior but instead it has sophisticated filtering. We bought from AJ Madison, which was wonderful to work with. We needed the extender piece because the ceiling is so high. The hood takes filtered cooking air up to the ceiling and vents it into the room. We sold that house post-Sandy but we loved the hood.

>We sold that house post-Sandy but we loved the hood.

What hood was that in?

What hood is your head in, hoodlum?

[oh snap]

Visited my in-laws in their apartment with their new Wolf a few weeks ago. My mother-in-law was raving about how much easier it is to make fudge on the Wolf than whatever she has in primary residence. She only cooked one full meal while we were there, and the apartment got uncomfortably hot. She loves it and apparently is not bothered by this, but the rest of us were dying.

Oh sweat!