seller try to keep the custom made shades

I think unless your contract lists the items that are to remain, the owner can take the rest.

if you want them, have them in the contract. if the seller is such a pain in the *$&*, let them find another buyer.

If it is bolted (screwed) to the wall or ceiling, it is suppose to stay with the apartment.

Did I made mistake by assumed the shades is part of the condo?
Yes

Though most of the time something custom made like that would be left behind, something like that should be specifically named in the contract.A good attorney would have brought that up.

I would get a rough estimate on replacing them (and willing to go with a new set) to put it back on their lap. The more important the shades APPEAR to be to you, the more they'll want for them.
You have to reverse the situation and get the seller to of the mindset of "get whatever I can for them."

A good agent would have discussed this with you and the seller once they accepted your offer. Any fixtures not being sold with the apartment should have been included on the deal sheet which goes out to the attorneys. I'm assuming the window treatments were included in the contact and the sellers just noticed now before getting ready to counter sign. You should discuss this with your attorney. I would get pricing on similar treatments and ask for a discount on the sales price.

I think it is the seller's agent's FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY to inform the protential buyer ( in contract or not ) that the seller has no intention to leave the MADE TO FIT shades before signing.
During viewing, the agent ONLY mentioned the seller wants to sell his FUNITURE.
Nor a word about the buyer has to PAY for window treatment.
I now think neither the seller and his agent are honest.
Those custom made shade is made to FIT,what is the seller going to do with the custom made shades?
Have it altered? stored?eat it?
Now, the agent's excuse is " U NEVER ASKED (the shades)"

I now " DON'T " think the seller and his agent are honest.
sorry, just so upset.

I'm no lawyer, but I don't think the seller's agent has any Fiduciary duty to the buyer. As a matter of fact, I'm unaware that real estate agents operate under a Fiduciary standard at all.

They are squeezing you for a few thousand extra. The question is whether or not you'll put up with it.

I'd personally say something like this. "The offer I made included the shades, the fridge, the stove, and a number of other items. Apparently, the owner has no idea what he's selling since this is being brought up at the last second. The contract obviously includes the shades, and you're bringing it up after negotiations were closed. It seems the best thing to do until the seller gets his act together and figures out what he is selling is for me to rescind my signature on the contract. Once you and the owner can make an itemized list of exactly what is being sold and what is not (because I don't want to hear this 'you never asked' crap again), I'll make a new offer."

According to this article (supposedly by a real estate lawyer), NYC contracts should INCLUDE all fixtures including window treatments unless specifically excluded.

Most contracts for the purchase and sale of apartments in New York provide that all appliances, window treatments and "fixtures" are included in the sale, unless specifically excluded from the transaction. Fixtures include things attached to the ceilings, walls or floors that typically require a tool to remove.

http://www.nydailynews.com/real_estate/2010/01/15/2010-01-15_legal_ease_real_estate_law_made_simple.html

Only tangentially related to this thread, but I am always horrified when I see tenants in my (rental) building move out but leave expensive window treatments, not knowing the fate that awaits them. One day I was at home and watched in horror as the maintenance crew literally ripped down and destroyed really expensive custom-made cellular shades. Everywhere else I've ever lived, blinds/shades remain on the windows between tenants, but in NY it seems to be commonplace to deliver windows bare (for rentals). Depending on how many windows you need to fit, your taste, and how much light you need to block, it can be an expensive investment for a rental.

Please, if you're going to move and your rental building's standard is "bare" windows, post a notice in your laundry room. Heck, even leave the blinds/shades down there. They will be destroyed otherwise!

Thanks ichian01, so that includes aboutready's toilet seat?

I agree with inonada. when you buy from a cheap bastard like that, you can be sure that things in the apartment were not kept up to snuff. if he is too cheap to leave custom blinds, imagine that he would be too cheap to buy anything but the most caustic drain cleaners, hire the cheapest, unlicensed electricians, etc. If they won't let you out of the contract, bring an army of engineers and inspectors to inspect the apartment.

imagine how aboutready will leave her apartment when she moves out if she's too cheap to buy her own $8.99 toilet seat after her husband breaks it.

i am the buyer.

"If they won't let you out of the contract, bring an army of engineers and inspectors to inspect the apartment."

Until Arthur receives a signed contract back, he is not in a contract and there's no issue with "letting you out". Until that time, Arthur can rescind / revoke his signature, and it's as if he had never signed the contract to begin with. I ain't a lawyer, but I'm sure a laywer can give us the term for the concept.

BTW, a good metric of a counterparty's shadiness is them bringing crap up when you have given them a signed contract and are waiting for a counter-signed contract. They use this as a position of power since most people don't understand that a half-signed contract doesn't mean squat. E.g., Arthur, were you aware of this?

inonda,
I signed the contract, wrote the 10% deposit and my lawyer has mailed it to the seller's lawyer.
Havn't received the seller's signed contract yet although the DUAL AGENT:))) told me it is signed.
And only then, she brought up the shades issue and " U NEVER ASKED ".
I have a real estate lawyer,will probably let the lawyer deal with the DUAL AGENT :) and her seller.
From the time the seller accepted my oral offer, it has been almost TWO WEEKS, no words I have to NEGOTIATE the custom-made shades until now.
No wonder people refer real estate agents as second hand car salesman,what a shame.

Ask your lawyer what's covered in your contract. It sounds like shades probably count as "fixtures" but it's probably a more borderline call than with respect to, say, light fixtures. Crappy of the seller to be bringing it up now, but unless you're buying a place with oodles of windows it's not going to be a huge expense even if you have to have new shades made -- maybe a couple of hundred bucks a pop if you do your own measurements and order online. (For non-super-high-end shades I've had good luck on a couple of different occasions with Justblinds.com, a company staffed with very friendly Texans.)

Call your lawyer and ask to rescind your signature. If the contract isn't countersigned, it's not too late to get your deposit back. Then fire your "broker" and hire Keith Burkhard instead. With your 2% rebate on commission, you'll get to decorate your new place.
Time to play hardball.

just have a quote for brand new custom made shades, allow the seller to take out the old ones and at closing you give them the bill for you new shades...

Check with your lawyer, but I believe in that legally "I have a signed copy from the other guy, but I haven't given it to you yet" doesn't mean squat. Until it's delivered to you or your representative, it's not legally counter-signed, not binding, and they need to return the deposit immediately. Again, verify with your lawyer.

I'm with maly -- time to play hardball. They've been shopping your offer around for two weeks, and now they're trying to squeeze a few extra bucks from you. Realize that a lot of crap can happen between a contract and a closing, and you may as well go thermo-nuclear now to set the tone as they don't seem to be moving forward in good faith.

"just have a quote for brand new custom made shades, allow the seller to take out the old ones and at closing you give them the bill for you new shades"

Too passive, highend. What Arthur needs to do is set the tone of "if you so much as let out a squeak, I will walk away from this contract 'cause I ain't gonna take crap". Right now, he's setting himself up to get screwed six ways from Sunday. Realize that if he caves on this issue, then the seller will think that he's willing to do what it takes to get the deal done, and he's gonna get nickel-and-dimed out of $10K by the time all is said and done.

If you think they're being unreasonable now, Arthur, wait until you actually have a deposit legally tied up in a contract when you are really tied down. You acquiesce now, it'll be a signal that it's open season on you. You smack them down by going thermo-nuclear, they'll know that once you're in contract and they try to pull crap, you are going to do everything in your power to walk. That means they are out a few months of marketing time.

This isn't legal advice (because I'm not a lawyer), but, as noted above, window treatments, if permanently attached, are likely fixtures and therefore considered a part of the real property. If they are not permanently attached -- for example, if they can be removed by simply sliding them off a rod -- then they would not be a part of the real property, and would need to be negotiated for separately. (Thanks, Wikipedia!) It sounds like these are fixtures.

But here's the thing...I can imagine that this question is the source of a LOT of misunderstandings. So I don't think it's entirely productive to jump to calling the seller dishonest, etc. Rather, the thing to do is to be straightforward, calm, but firm:

"These treatments are a fixture -- so they are a part of the house and not something we'd negotiate separately. I know that's not entirely intuitive, so I understand how you might have gotten confused about it. But my offer to purchase was based on the legal understanding of what a house includes -- the walls, the floor, the fixtures, etc. To the extent that you want to request renegotiation of our contract to discuss one of those fixtures separately, I'm willing to discuss it with you -- but the price I offered was for the house and all that comes with it, and I'm not willing to offer a better price now for the same thing. If that means we don't have an agreement, then that's unfortunate."

HK306....I like your advice. I like to start with " You may not be aware......then your quote....." so they can save face and do the right thing.

""These treatments are a fixture -- so they are a part of the house and not something we'd negotiate separately. I know that's not entirely intuitive, so I understand how you might have gotten confused about it. But my offer to purchase was based on the legal understanding of what a house includes -- the walls, the floor, the fixtures, etc. To the extent that you want to request renegotiation of our contract to discuss one of those fixtures separately, I'm willing to discuss it with you -- but the price I offered was for the house and all that comes with it, and I'm not willing to offer a better price now for the same thing. If that means we don't have an agreement, then that's unfortunate.""

I would tack onto the final sentence: "...and you can keep the shades."

"A good agent would have discussed this with you and the seller"

LOL. A "good agent". That's like saying "A GOOD unicorn would have purple spots"...

"So I don't think it's entirely productive to jump to calling the seller dishonest, etc."

There's a time and place for giving people the benefit of the doubt. I just don't think this is it. They are trying to pull crap at the final hour. They've delayed getting a contract out for 2 weeks. You can be sure they're still showing the place as we speak, shopping for a better deal.

This broker has done nothing to gain the benefit of the doubt. The "you never asked" comment demonstrates the one-sidedness of the representation, and no indications were made by the broker on the true legal standing of the shades with the contract as-is: i.e., the shades are included.

Your version of "productive" is to get past this point with as little friction as possible. If this were the last step in the process, that's one thing. However, this is the beginning of a long process that requires a great deal of good faith between the two parties. I'd guess a good amount of friction here in the form of Arthur making a big production on the issue will go a long way in terms of being "productive" down the line in terms of setting the stage on how much crap the seller and broker will be willing to try.

Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me.

After the seller accepted my oral bid, it took his real estate lawyer ONE WEEK to produce the " APPROPRIATE " -CONDOMINIUM UNIT -CONTRACT OF SALE" to my lawyer.
I went to my lawyer's office right away to sign the contract in the middle of the storm once it was received.
It was sent out by OVER NIGHT mail service to them.
It took the seller ANOTHER WEEK to get back to me through the so called DUAL AGENT :( that I need to NEGOTIATE the cumtom-made shades even though the word "blind, shade...." was never crossed out in the contract ( personal property ) by the seller's lawyer.
The real estate agent(s) is a small group of people in a large real estate company in Manhatten, I bet their left hand doesn't know what their right hand is doing.
My lawyer is dealing with them, will keep everyone informed.
I hope my experience will help other people when they deal with DISHONSET SELLER, DISHONEST,IRRESPONSIBLE,SLOPPY REAL ESTATE AGENT & SLOPPY REAL ESTATE LAWYER.

Arthur, I know it's hard when you're in the thick of things, it sucks, but remember to be calm and not let it get to you. There's a difference between actually being angry and showing anger. No need for the former (though it's obviously hard to avoid), and bring out the latter when it's to your advantage.

Be glad that their colors have been shown earlier in the process, and be prepared to deal with them appropriately going forward. They ain't gonna magically change, all you can control is how you deal with them.

Best of luck.

I'm sure your lawyer will catch it, so long as your lawyer knows your point of view on it.
It may be wise to do a thorough walk through of your contract with your lawyer and then go see the apartment again to make sure everything is as it should be.

And forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think a 2 week turnaround on a contract is fairly normal.

arthur, it sounds like you're a newbie buyer. As a a good standard of practice, three people should have discussed this point with you:

1) the seller's agent, realizing you're a newbie and wouldn't know what is and isn't a fixture, should have discussed the point with you (I'm an agent, and I do when I do direct deals, we're not all horrible);
2) your buyer's agent -- it sounds like you didn't have anyone representing you; this is just the kind of thing they do.
3) your attorney -- should have sat down and discussed important points of contract with you -- including this one.

Sorry your team failed you, but I hope that you still enjoy the apartment.

ali

front_porch, you are giving some brokers too much credit that the broker him(her)self would know what a fixture is and what is and is not included. You may be one of the brokers that is "on the level" but as you know many are not or just not educated.

Ask a million question. Even if it’s dumb and you know the answer. You might think you know the answer but the replies will surprise you.

None the less the wheels are in motion, ask the agent, broker , or the seller to pay for the Misunderstanding. Stand your ground and you will get what you want .

I have other properties in NYC, these bunch of incomptent real estate aganets have just lost a protential client down the road no matter what the outcome is.
Most of my friends are waiting on the sideline to buy,either in 2010 or next year, I won't put a nice word for them, and THAT IS FOR SURE!!
My " x-broker " way back from the late 90s in NYC(her team did almost half a billiion dollar business the year before) mentioned to me BY ACCIDENT that she sold a condo to a friend of mine without informing her( the buyer ) that the condo is near a homeless shelter.
So,BUYERS BEWARE!!!
And that includs me:((((