gut renovation of a loft

I think you might have to give a bit more about what you want from the reno. What do you want included? New kitchen, bathrooms, and central a/c, but what else?

New Kitchen, 2 bathrooms, central a/c, new floor, some millwork (book shelves, closets, real wood doors), no special architechtural work or sliding doors. Thanks.

I don't have any loft experience so I'll defer to others on this estimate. I do know central a/c can be a fortune (well, a fortune for me). Friends who put it into their 3000+ sq/ft loft in NoHo spent about $75,000-100,000 on it I think (granted, their contractor was crazy expensive).

Oh--and seriously consider MDF doors versus wood. There are some advantages. You can check them out at Dykes lumber. They carry Trustile doors which are 100% custom, solid and heavy as heck.

Thanks Kylewest.

Low end ballpark is probably $200/ft. Higher-end has almost no limits, of course.

Things hat will cost you more than you plan include (a) if building requires you to take new plumbing to the risers; (b) if you have to upgrade electrical service, up from basement; (c) if sub-flooring is a mess; (d) if you take down old walls that did not have finished flooring underneath; (e) if adjoining unit (up, down or sideways) sound insulation is inadequate; (f) if there is anything tricky about where to put the compressors or air handlers for the CAC. This is a partial list, of course ;-) Do you have an architect?

Electrical?? Painting? I'd say $350K -- $100K for the kitchen, $75K for the A/C, $75K for two baths, $50K for new floor and millwork, $50K for overruns.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

i don't know, but i know i am jealous.

You should budget a minimum of 500K and make sure to find the right architect. Interview them on site, talk to current and past clients, see examples of their work. Depending on your esthetics and the quality of the materials, the high-end could be double. A good, smart architect will save you their fees through good planning and professional execution.

I think it is important to keep this a bit in perspective. The job is likey do-able for a lot less than $1MM. If you want simple floors, no walls, nothing elaborate in terms of tricking the place out, you are looking at a few hundred thousand. The a/c will be a big chunk. Now, if you start getting fancy with poured concrete floors, sound systems, complex lighting, pear wood custom cabinetry, spa bathrooms, smooth as ice ceilings (versus exposed old "loft type" ceilings), large chef's kitchen with a 6-foot long LaCornue stove...well, sky is indeed the limit. But a functioninig while box that is updated but not especially fancy--a few hundred thousand like Ali says sounds reasonable.

100% agree with maly about an architect who knows what s/he is doing from the get-go. And you need the architect for construction oversight. If you attempt to be the GC, you will also spend a fortune paying for your mistakes.

I think it also bears asking, in this market, is such an investment truly worth it? Is there really no property available where all this work has been done and it just needs some touching up? 3 years ago I could better understand undertaking this given how expensive everything was and the premium you would pay for someone else's having done the reno. But today, with values still soft at best and sinking at worst, putting huge sums into a property suggests to me you have a very long time horizon (10 years+) or you aren't overly concerned with making your money back if you sell sooner. Just putting it out there...

Kyle - maybe 300 mercer is getting a great buy on the apartment BECAUSE it needs renovation (very few people want the hassle of renovating today, so sometimes the "estate" apartments, and "need renovation" apartments sell at a substantial discount from "mint condition"

If your looking at tribeca lofts, you definitely want to pay the lower price and do the reno yourself because their reno leaves little to be desired. Take a high floor too because those floors creak awfully bad and your upstairs neighbor may be cheap or had the developer do the reno :)

Thanks a lot every one. It seems that a resonable mid-end renovation budget including over-runs will have to be $500K. I will need to factor this into the purchase price including additional carrying cost and hassle while the renovation take place. I am interested in a loft space on Broadway which is in estate condition. This means that the fair price will be no more than $550-600 a sq ft for the raw space after factoring in Broadway discount.

The best way to get a realistic idea of the scope of the walk thru the apartment and make a list of every item and submit it for quotation, “a few book shelves” can be $1,500 just like $15,000. It pays to be organized.
The estimates you saw look realistic, but good organization is key, some short-cuts may possible on certain items while not on others and you might get away for less. A bathroom is a minimum of 15-20k mostly labor with entry level finishes just retiling and replacing the fixtures, and yes, many building will ask for the plumbing to be re-done entirely from the risers. Same price range for an entry level kitchen but is very easy to spend 75-100k for a typical quality Manhattan kitchen.
If everything is functional and you are only looking at updating the finishes stripping and refinishing floors as well as a skim coat and repainting too. Luckily in this case a loft can be more forgiving then a classic Park Avenue apartment. The quality of the finishes makes a big difference tiles can be found anywhere from 5$ to 100+ per foot, and it is possible if one looks carefully to find nice product in the lower price ranges. Cabinetry and mill work on the other can become costly very fast. Even a simple item a base board molding for a few dollars a foot adds up very fast as there is a lot of feet and short cuts may not show very well. HVAC is also a big item that is harder to compress.
Feel free to contact me if you need to discuss this further.
Design by Francois LLC - www.francoistenenbaum.com

As someone who occasionally sells downtown lofts, I would be VERY surprised if you found a seller that would go as low as $550-$600/sq. ft, even for estate condition.

We have seem some $700ish sq/ft. trades in co-ops and I can't think of anything nearly that low in condos.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali,
What discout do you put for a very busy Broadway location?

Um the tribeca lofts (79worth, 78 leonard,80 leaonard) have units that have closed in the 700s and they are condos. They are in very used rental condition.
They also haven't had a closing in a couple months and lost steam so they may get even more aggresive.

Broadway is far worse that those lofts even though they are not in the most desirable part of Tribeca. Broadway loft will only make sense for me at $600 per sq ft.

And here is a broadway loft on a pretty desirable point on broadway recently renovated asking $840 psft.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/487164-coop-722-broadway-greenwich-village-new-york

Man, I looked at the above post. Lofts are really an acquired taste. To me, most seem awkward configurations of weird space in icky buildings--at least the ones at a price point I could swing. They definitely are not for everyone.

I can highly recommend a contractor. I've worked with him over the years and he's always come through. Excellent quality work, on time, responsive and honest. Give him a shot, he's known for fair pricing and high end renovations.

Peter
718 736 3678

$600/ft will be tough, but these are low $/ft loft deals actually done; some needed GUT, some not. Basically, Ali's right:

70 Thomas St #5, closed Jan 20, $511/ft
176 Bway #12C, closed Jan 13, $609/ft
256 W 21 St #G3, closed Jan 12, $725/ft
260 W Bway #8C, closed Dec 23 at $700/ft [condo]
80 Warren St #32, closed Nov 17, $547/ft
874 Bway #301, closed Oct 27, $658/ft
86 Thomas St #4, closed Oct 21, $675/ft

To me, a big problem with buying a Gut these days is that buyers will have to pay cash for the renovation ... no more second loans to finance that expense. On the other hand, that shrinks the buyer pool enough that sellers *should* price accordingly. Good luck, 300.

@Kyle: agree that lofts are not for everyone, but what you see as 'bugs', others see as 'features'. Bless those people!

Also agree it's not for everyone.
I'll tell you why they've grown in appeal to me as a buyer.
I'm looking for lots of living space/entertaining space and less at bedrooms/bathrooms. I am single so I don't have privacy issues that couples or families may have.
Ceiling height in general is substancially higher with lofts. Though some lofts that have second tier rooms with their 6foot5 (and sometimes lower which is def problematic) is a big minus, the high ceiling living rooms you usually get with it are a big plus. It changes the dynamic of a room tremendously.
The other thing in the back of the mind in a loft space that if you needed to throw together an extra room you could put up 1/2/3 extra walls somewhere and voila. Granted it's more a glorified closet and should I find myself married with kids, I'd want a more proper home, but that option is there.

SMattingly- those are old and closed sales, show me something that is priced like that now, the supply is so tight there is nothing out there........

Funny, I look at that Broadway loft and it looks like heaven to me. I don't have that kind of money but if I did that's exactly the kind of place I'd buy.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/154-west-18-street-manhattan

$647 per sq ft. Better area but needs residential occupancy certificate

@dledven -- Sorry ... I don't comment on the 'net about other agent's listings, after having gotten slapped for comparing publicly two essentially identical lofts at widely divergent prices. But if you (or 300 Mercer) want to buy something under $700/ft, make a bid on something offered well into the $800s. You never know HOW negotiable they are until you bid...

@300 Sorry, but if I'm not your agent, it's definitely a violation of trade rules for me to tell you how someone else's listing "should" be priced. See Sandy's statement above.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali, I did not ask for the appropriate price. Was just asking for reno cost on which your post was very helpful. After reading all the comments, my view is that a listing on 722 Broadway is no more than $600 per sq ft for raw space as it not a very desirable area. Mcdonalds next to it. This is theloft I had in mind. Obviously it will have to be on the market for a while before seller comes down that much.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/404249-coop-722-broadway-greenwich-village-new-york

Didn't realize I posted a unit in the same building....
McDonalds aside, it's still a good neighb 300mercer. I'd love to live within Cozy's Soap burger delivery range. :)

Broadway from 8th to 12st is nice but very crowded and full of low-end retail stores between 4th and 8th. A few run-down buildings on the same block too.

Meant Cozy's SOUP and burger.

Best chicken soup, and a damn good burger.