High Unemployment and Skilled labor shortgage

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8c800066-24a0-11df-8be0-00144feab49a.html

Manufacturing companies in the US are struggling to find workers with technical skills even though the sector has shed more than 2m jobs in the past two years. The shortage of skilled staff could restrict companies’ ability to step up production as the economic recovery gathers pace.

In interviews with the Financial Times, groups ranging from Boeing – one of the US’s biggest manufacturers and exporters – to small companies also said they faced a wave of skilled workers reaching retirement age in the next few years, with a shortage of younger workers to replace them.

Ironic, that what's holding back many unemployed are obtaining new skills

I don't believe this. They may be facing a shortgage, but they're still not hiring. IF it was true, they could set up an apprenticeship program where the unemployed work with the soon to be retiring. There's no reason that they could not find people to train for these jobs.

I believe it. These are skilsl that require engineering degrees. If push comes to shove, they'll hire overseas and sponsor visas.

These are skills that require the pay rates that match the engineering degrees and the skills. All this means is that they want to pay generous salaries for engineers from the third world, but paltry sums for homegrown talent. Disgraceful.

What's next, child labor in Cleveland?

"generous", in quotation marks

Of course, that's not ALL it means; it also means they're lobbying for an expansion of work visas ... it's probably a coordinated communications effort, driven by the Chamber of Commerce. Sleazes always.

http://engineeringtrends.com/IEE/0405A.php

Five years old, but doubt it has changed much.

South Korea, Taiwan and Japan are setting the pace in relative degrees as shown in the bar graph. The average of these three countries is five times as great as that of the United States which is only twenty-fifth in the list of countries studied. The substantial growth in degrees awarded by China assures that they will exceed the output of the United States in terms of degrees per population in just a few years. Clearly, the major industrial countries in Asia dominate the relative production of undergraduate engineering graduates and this domination will remain in the years ahead.

Summary

Growth in the number of undergraduate engineering degrees over the past ten to twenty years has been substantial in China, Japan and South Korea. Degrees awarded in China and Japan have exceeded the number produced by the United States since the early 1990s. South Korea is poised to join this group in just a few years.

In terms of relative degree output (degrees per population) in 2000, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan are the international leaders. The ranking of the United States by this measure is twenty-fifth among the forty-three countries included in this report.

A friend of my sells musical instruments that were traditionally manufactured in the USA. The company he deals with sells three grades of instruments, cheap, middle-of-the-road, and pro.

Over the last couple of decades, the company outsourced the cheap and middle-of-the-road lines to a foreign country.

Most of the folks working on the pro line are in their 50s and 60s. The traditional method of promotion within the factory was that a new person on the line (in their 20s) was hired to work on the cheap stuff. If they were any good, they were promoted (in their 30s or 40s) to the middle-of-the-road line. Once they had established themselves on the middle-of-the-road line, they could then move up to the pro line (in their 40s or 50s.) So given the nature of this thread, guess what happens when you've outsourced the low-end lines?

American industry is being hoisted upon its own outsourced petard...

This is quite necessary. Seen the same thing happen with bikes. American and Italian high end manufacturers can't produce at a competitive price(which is most true at the low/middle end). Asian manufacturers would put them out of business, so they do the next best thing and utilize over-seas production but retain quality control. At the high end of the market, there's less price sensitivity and the made in Italy or United States conveys hand made high quality which reinforces why the high price should be paid by the consumer

Math education needs to start at the 2-3 yr old level. The U.S. is sorely behind by this measure. Yes, you will always have math geniuses who absorb the stuff like a sponge, but we simply don't have a culture that promotes the value of learning at a young age so that you reach kids who can be more than competent in math/science but are not "natural" math geniuses. I'm fighting a battle against a pink-princess, barbie, olivia-esque culture and pushing at least 2 pages of simple addition and subtraction daily with my 5 year old. The sad thing is, they don't get simple subtraction, addition for another year at school and multi-digit addition, subtraction for another year after that.

When I was in undergrad engineering, half of my class was Asian/E. European by descent and this demographic was particularly overrepresented in the female part of the class.

And for the quants we do have Wall Street pays far better.

Ah, come on. This is the problem with math education here. Getting a solid grounding in math doesn't mean a quant-career path. If you have great math skills, it helps develop your logical reasoning skill and coupled with the ability to write -> world's your oyster. The whole "great in math" -> nerd is why the U.S. is in such big trouble on that front.

I do agree there's a problem with math education in this country, which roots in Education and society.

I’m the CEO of a fiber optic design and manufacturing company and I can tell you that at all levels of quality and technical expertise the Asians and particularly the Chinese now dominate.

The jobs are not coming back to the U.S. PERIOD. There is no labor shortage. A huge swath of jobs has been cut out of our society and economy. This is a very sad state of affairs.

We are good at very high level concept stuff like advanced research, design, and marketing. The other areas that we excel in are the non manufacturing jobs like financial services, brokers, and manufacturing at McDonalds.

I think a lot about this and feel sometimes that I’m part of the problem but this is capitalism. I don’t see any good to come of this and I do feel sorry for the country and the people.

Oh well, in a couple of generations, the U.S. will be the low cost labor unless Africa fixes its problems.

Riversider - I am an engineering student as I've mentioned previously. I know more than a handful of well qualified recently graduated BS, MS, and PhDs who are having trouble finding work, including myself.

I know a student who graduated last MAY with a BS and lots of work experience bc he did a co-op program at his school. He has been working since the fall at Williams-Sonoma and is worried he'll get laid off bc it was seasonal.

If there really was a shortgage, they'd be banging down the doors at engineering schools trying to hire people. But that is not the case. I don't know where these available jobs are but they sure as hell are not in the tri-state area.

I couldn't agree more with you that math education in this country is hurting.

Would be a very interesting poist to hear the response for an interview from the companies listed in the News Story.

mmarquez110, you're interfering with the Chamber of Commerce party line. Don't complicate the issue with reality.

nyc10023, just tell your 5-year-old to read http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/category/steven-strogatz/

An oldie but goodie on Math

http://haha.nu/funny/funny-math/

From the Master: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIJ0CikId8E

I have applied to some open positions at Siemens however my resume went into that electronic black hole. I think it was for the location in Tarrytown.

This is all PR bull so that they can get more visas to bring in overseas workers.

A shortage of workers my ass, who do you think was fired? The younger, less experienced people. Just rehire them if you have a shortage of workers.

MM: have you thought about tutoring? Big bucks.

No amount of higher education can prepare someone for dealing with parents. (You alone excepted, Dear Reader.)

I've gone the H1B-> GC route myself, so I come from the other side. Was and is there an absolute shortage of engineering professionals/scientists? Nope. However, employers always want to pick the "best" (usually it means zero-ramp-up time, not nec. the most intelligent). Do they want to pick from a global pool of talent (worked in the past, as foreign nationals wanted to come to the U.S.)? Yep. Does this mean that even in the best of times, there will be some unemployed people with the right technical skills? Yep.

So the U.S. has to decide if they want to limit employers to the national pool of talent to maximize employment or if they want to continue to allow foreign nationals/nonresidents to have access to U.S.-based jobs?

Canada and Australia have a different approach to this. It is very hard to get a job in Canada without already being a legal permanent resident. The workaround is to let "qualified" professionals emigrate based on a points system. Alas, the gov't powers that be suck at identifying high-need professions and integrating the local licensing requirements, so Canada prob. has the highest concentration of PHD taxi drivers and drudge workers.

Alan: I agree, 110%. But money covers a multitude of sins. $100/h is not bad.

What all this means for RE can't be good.

I don't think that the few of you responding here really get it. The jobs are gone and what's left of the manufactuing base won't be growing. Yes, there will always be a market for the best but that's it.

The only way this can change is direct government intervention, which would be a total mess, or some breakthrough technology that somehow saves the day.

I don't see anything wrong with this, it's part of adapation.

This article is complete BS. The main reason companies can't find the people they are looking for is that they want people whose experience matches the job description 101%. They are totally unwilling to train people.

Either someone at the FT is stupid or someone at Boeing has no clue what is going on at THEIR own company. See if you can spot what is wrong with this picture:

Riversider's article:

In interviews with the Financial Times, groups ranging from Boeing – one of the US’s biggest manufacturers and exporters – to small companies also said they faced a wave of skilled workers reaching retirement age in the next few years, with a shortage of younger workers to replace them.

Now for thsi article from last month:

Boeing Announces 1,020 Layoffs

Boeing has issued 60-day pink slips to more than 1,000 employees of its Engineering, Operations and Technology division. Boeing, whose year-over-year revenue was up 42 percent in the fourth quarter of 2009, expects to lay off 2,000 workers in 2010.

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Boeing-Announces-1020-Layoffs-406469/

Again, this premise that there is somehow a shortage of skilled labor is total BS... it's just another bogus US Chamber of Commerce talking point to justify more H1B visas.

"or some breakthrough technology that somehow saves the day" ... opium?

When I was in elementary school, the two smartest math kids were Chinese cousins: Hannah Hum and Wico Chu. I don't know what happened to them, but I'm sure they are making a good living.

nyc10023 - yes i've looked into tutoring. From what I've seen there's all these qualified recent graduates looking for work so they tutor. So now you have some tutoring companies paying their tutors as low as $15/hr (not including travel) which is insulting. IF you know of any good companies or contacts, I'd be happy to hear them. And I also have to restudy and take a practice SAT2 as part of the application process to some tutoring companies which also is insulting, but I can understand why they require that.
Technically I'm in school and funded for a few more months but the job market on the near horizon looks very poor indeed.

I have a relative who just graduated and tutors in Queens. He makes $17.50 an hour, and I don't believe he had to take the SAT.

The best way to make big money tutoring is to get students yourself. This way you keep every dime you make and you don't have to pay tax. Outside of tutoring agencies, tutoring is an all cash business.

Here's a list of all the tutoring agencies in NYC that do tutoring under No Child Left Behind. Most require certified teachers, but others do not. good luck.

http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/033F1F5D-CACC-4C07-8D49-4ABBCF0E4D1C/0/ParentGuideenglishforweb2REVISED.pdf

"This way you keep every dime you make and you don't have to pay tax." - Socialist

Does anyone else find this terribly ironic?

bhh, yeah the socialist further undermines the system. More gas on the fire,

MM: try to get your own students. On the UWS, math tutors easily charge 40+/hr. The trick is to get a good client base and not go through an agency. Just to shock you further, tutors at the K level can run up to 150/hr. How about posting ads at the local pediatricians, JCC, Crumbs? I see tons of ads. Take the practice SAT2 anyway. If you are able to get into the NYCTF program and get certified as a teacher, you will make big bucks because people will warm to the fact that you are certified.

Also try to get into the private school system, they don't require certification.

Truth: Wico Chu http://www.healthgrades.com/directory_search/physician/profiles/dr-md-reports/dr-wico-chu-md-8dd3a280

Only rich people and corporations shoud pay tax, not $20 an hour tutors.

and when I refuse to pay for your free stuff, you'll turn the other cheek, right?

Why when there is a thread on unemployment does aboutready NOT post, but when there is a thread about employment, she's all over it?

It's like the 80% carpet thread. She won't use carpeting, against all the rules, but she posts on a thread about carpeting.

What a hypocrite.

Thanks for the suggestions people. I was not accepted to nyctf but I am trying to get into other programs to get my certification. Also looking into private schools.

It's really tough out there right now for those of you who don't believe it. If you have a job, you might want to think twice about quitting without something lined up.

I heard that the city has drastically scaled back nyctf because of the budget. In fact, there is currently a hiring freeze in the DOE. You can try Teach for America. I've heard great things about them.

i'll hear back from TFA tomorrow if I made it to the 2nd round.
yeah i figured as much about nyctf. Last year there many of their fellows could not find jobs. My understanding is that TFA ended up sending a lot of their people to charter schools, and maybe even some private schools. Oh well, ::fingers crossed::

Do you have a graduate degree? If you do you can try adjuncting at a community college.

"Only rich people and corporations shoud pay tax, not $20 an hour tutors."

Which means a tutor will always be a tutor. And hopefully 20 years from now will make $40 an hour.
Viva europa!

yeah i have my MS already.
As far as I know, adjuncting pays very little, even at good schools.
I should look into it more though.

"As far as I know, adjuncting pays very little, even at good schools. "

"Adjuncting" should more more appropriately termed "hobbying" -- perfect for bored and overeducated housewives, or for people already working full-time at a real job looking for some weekend drinking money.

At roughly $2000 per SEMESTER, it's certainly nothing you could ever hope to live on.

I think CUNY pays considerably better than that, but still not great. The adjuncts there are part of a (very weak) union; the "real" professors are part of a different, better, union. Also, a bizarre and very specific NYS law means that you won't be eligible for unemployment benefits if you're not reupped ... at least that's my understanding.

Anyway, to teach anything remotely resembling engineering, you'll need to speak in an unintelligible accent, so chances are you're unqualified.

"From what I've seen there's all these qualified recent graduates looking for work so they tutor. So now you have some tutoring companies paying their tutors as low as $15/hr (not including travel) which is insulting"

Welcome to the academic job market. Adjuncting at community colleges is what recent Ph.D grads are doing these days; you're toast with only a master's. Alan, I wish CUNY paid decently but to get anything more than the minimum end (usually $40 an hour, though they advertise that they'll pay up to $60) (but of course no one actually gets $60). That doesn't include the bulk of the time you spend working: class prep, grading papers, holding office hours. So it's actually like $3,000 semester for a LOT of work.

Then again, I am not an engineer.

Forgot to finish my sentence! Alan, I wish CUNY paid decently but to get anything more than the minimum end (usually $40 an hour, though they advertise that they'll pay up to $60) (but of course no one actually gets $60) you have to have connections or some serious name recognition.

Mmarquez, are you going to be at the SE meetup tomorrow? I'd be happy to exchange academic-market war stories with you. And advice, too!

but...you're on this thread bemoaning employment opportunities, yet you're on another thread talking about the benefits of buying an apartment? perhaps I'm turning into matt (god help me) but i don't get it.

"This article is complete BS. The main reason companies can't find the people they are looking for is that they want people whose experience matches the job description 101%. They are totally unwilling to train people. "

Yeah, what's with these people, why are they so averse to teaching people to how to READ and WRITE.

If New York State can tax us to death and not do it, OF COURSE we should expect prospective employers to. And, as a reward, the government will unionize their workers and require mandantory retirement 2 years after they get trained.

evnyc - I won't be able to make it, as I 'm sitting in on a night class, trying to broaden my horizons so that I can get a job. My experiences are limited to applying to teaching fellowship programs, and trying to understand how to get K-12 certification which is confounding to me despite talking to many people.

MM: I hope you get into Teach For America. If you don't, the only way to get certified might be to pay for it yourself. I have friends who paid for themselves at Pace (did it slowly with day jobs). Have you looked into agencies that place you as subs into private schools? I have some actress friends who do this.

Have you tried applying to charter schools directly?

http://schools.nyc.gov/Offices/DHR/SubTeachers.htm

nyc10023- thanks for your advice. i made it the 2nd round of TFA yesterday- only 2 more to go...

All the charter schools say you need 2 years exp. and certification so I haven't even bothered. Many of them also are Middle school or younger, I'm looking for high school ideally.

It's not a problem to pay for cert. myself as CCNY is right down the street and pretty cheap.
I understand parts of the certification and that you can get student teaching done as a sub. Here is my real question: What steps could I take, other than doing TFA or NYCTF that would allow me to be a fulltime teacher in the fall in a public schol?

MM: you're talking this fall? You need TFA or NYCTF then. Good luck with TFA, but why not submit your CV to charters anyway just in case it doesn't pan out ...

i'll probably do that as well as apply to private schools.

This is way off from real estate, but did you see that article about the Charter school lady and Joel Klein trying to close public schools to make way for her charter schools? Disgusting...

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/education/2010/02/26/2010-02-26_all_eva_had_to_do_was_ask_after_email_doe_planned_to_expand_charters.html

Yeah. I know. I've been to the Community Board meetings. PS241 is part of District 3 on the UWS. It is troubling to close zoned schools because then there is almost no way the neighborhood can continue to gentrify. In years when the local school pop. chooses not to attend their local schools, inevitably the schools close and land is sold off. When there is gentrification underway, there is only so much a neighborhood can improve if "middle-class" kids can't go to their local school. Sorry, lizyank, AH. I know there is much love for the gritty NYC of old. But even "working-class" parents who are in the know (would you count building supers in this group) won't send their kids to the not-bad schools on the UWS.

I posted this on some parenting boards. One of the strongest NCLB supporters, Diane Ravitch (see today's NYT) has now reversed her stance. I am always a little incensed at educators who don't send their kids to public (her kids went to Dalton).

What a bunch of dumb ass losers here.

Wake the hell up.

I saw that article about Diane Ravitch. It's ridiculous that she could change her beliefs so much, after she fully supported those measures. I'll be honest, I don't know how much she was specifically responsible for implementing these policies. But I hope she works hard to undo some of the damage that has been done.

Nice talking to you. I gotta go focus on work now.