425 WEA and other combo units

hmm, i searched the discussion for this address before posting and nothing came up. just searched for "combos" and found this somewhat useful bit, http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/10835-building-at-425-west-end-avenue

The real starting out key is whether the owner has gotten the coop to agree to letting the purchaser have the little piece of hallway (and how much/many shares the coop would want for that) between the two apartment front doors. Without that, combining is awkward.

4A&B were supposed to be an original 9-room apt (I have vague memories of the original floorplan). I would put the LR & DR in the 2 FP-ed rooms. Looks like they would be there in the original config. Put the K where the maid's rooms were (adjacent to NW corner of the apt). Have a spare room in the NW corner of the apt where the original K would be. 3 brs in the NE flank.

Library in 4B's kitchen. Not a bad flow at all. The middle section where the 2 Ks now exist could be a rather grand gallery.

ph41 - maybe remove that foyer bathroom if you can't get part of the hallway. 2nd NE bedroom could share bath with NW bedroom(s). or maybe shift the bath into the kitchen area if you place 3 br's in NE.

10023 - do you think you could knock out the wall with the working fireplace? if so, then yeah, could definitely be a nice space. how 'bout kitchen configuration?

or keep FP wall and remove central kitchen.

No, I would not knock out the wall with working FP. Swingdoor or opening between DR and kitchen, but not open. I've already done a mock-up fp with paintbrush. The weakness in the plan is that 2nd bathroom in the NE is needed, but in an awkward spot. Would be better if it were more solidly in the bedroom wing.

Ah, both existing Ks would be gone. I would put the new K in 4B's second bedroom (which is probably old maids' rooms), adjacent to the FP-ed room which would be DR.

Why not take the easy way out? Combine the two kitchens so you get one great eat-in, and then use the second living room as a family room? The other bedrooms/bathrooms seem to work fairly well as they are.

bump

paintbrush. Brilliant! Much better than pinky & thumb w/ one eye closed. oh, the little things.

Kitchen could be really open with long counter on the family room side - more closed on the living/dining room side, which would also provide flow from both sides of apartment, as well as from entry hall.

Granted, bedrooms would be on opposite sides of apartment, as they are now, but that could work well for family with children of different ages (also, could use one bedroom adjacent to living/dining as library.

ph - making 2nd lr into family room was my first thought too, but i don't know if we would use two living room-like rooms. although, the K + 2nd LR would make one massive Dr. could be nice as a great room though

Ph: I like having a windowed kitchen.

NYC10023 - so do I. If you continue the kitchen all the way to the windows, you do have the windowed kitchen, with a great eat-in area. Put the long prep/serving counter on the right, open to the "family room".

Cut off a piece of one of the kitchens (closest to the entry door) for another purpose (small laundry room, walk-in closet,etc.) if the kitchen starts to get TOO long.

Actually good place for powder room and washer dryer, since it would back up to an existing plumbing stack

The only problem with the combination would be that it might be the "elephant" in the building - nothing else like it, so goes against perceived real estate wisdom about not being the "best on the block". But at a better price (sellers are reaching on the combo price), for long term living - lots of space in what would appear to be a good location in a less than premier building (though I am not an UWS expert, as you all know) could work well.

Could also probably create a decent entry foyer.

Agreed on the white elephant. For combos, I like recreating original layouts because the flow tends to be decent. To maximize value, I would do it for an apt with views - say reconnecting the front of a river-view apt to a rear lightwell facing apt.

but NYC10023 - this is one example of a combo which, at the right price, could really be worth it. The flow actually works for a "family" apartment (public spaces to the left, with adult BR) private family/children spaces to the right. Sometimes, even "white elephants" can be a good thing at the right price with the full knowledge of same on buyer's part.

Value here IMHO) lies in the amount of space, large number of bedrooms, great kitchen/familiy room possibilities. Again, for long term living, but, has to be at the right price. And, again, IMHO there is not a real need to tear the place up to get pretty good flow. (but that little piece of hallway makes a HUGE difference).

THis is sort of like a townhouse duplex, sort of a double wide, but all on one level, with the "family chaos contained in the "private" space And since I am not a fan of townhouse living (though if there are little kids at home I get the advantages) this is batter than the upstairs/downstairs of TH living.

When the market is less heady (like now), a combo like this is not going to be as desirable as a 9-room original in building that has retained the larger layouts. I'm not against combos but the price has to justify it.

Also, FWIW, the market has less love for these shorter pre-pre-war buildings. See 194RSD, for example, and 401 WEA.

The bottom line, is if you need the space, and you can get the space for under 1000/sqft, it's not bad. Just don't expect to sell it at the same price point as say, a 9-room in 325WEA.

I agree re: price here being prime question when considering combining. What would be considered a good price for a 4-5 bedroom, 4.5 bath apartment UWS? Non-doorman, relatively low rise.

But also consider that the 4th and 5th bedrooms are going to be larger than the original 9-room prewar, which will include those tiny maids' rooms in the BR count. And this will also have more bathrooms to accomodate those bedrooms than most of the pre-wars (particularly those on the UWS).

Again, comes down to price/value/end user utility as well as re-sale. What is the classic 9 going for now, in these "less heady" times?

And with that square (2,800 ) footage? OK even if they're exaggerating that somewhat.

but at 325 West End, the only 9 room to come on the market, in 2006, went for over $4.2MM- so even now, what would that sell for? If it even came on the market unrenovated? And it had only three bedrooms

Combos in a small bldg like this are hard to price, and in normal markets trade for much less than an equivalently sized classic X. Consider this in comparison to 105W73 - a 4br combo, mint condition reno sold there for mid 2s not long ago. That's a small bldg in a better location, flow not as good but pretty reno.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/407541-coop-105-w-73rd-st-upper-west-side-new-york

interesting. are people paying more for the building? flow? original layout? certainly some are paying for views. The D line at 325, for instance - not lovin' the double maids rooms (basically useless imo) and strongly dislike how the kitchen is shoved into a far corner. so then you hack away at it and risk losing profit in the process? since this is all just fun for me i'm not sure how i would really feel about a combo that offers more space, larger rooms, but may have less than ideal flow vs. an original layout.

But 105 had a maintenance of $4,300 vs. $3,600+ for 425 west end - both non-doorman, non "prime" buildings, so higher maintenance might have led to "lower" price in 105.

NYC10023, in general I agree with you, but that assumes the ability to buy "classic", "prime", etc.,etc.which not everyone, if not most people, cannot really do. So, people look for alternatives. And that combo, at the RIGHT price, could work.

What price would YOU be willing to pay to buy a "classic 10-11" room (because i think you posted once that you currently have 4 brs) in "great pre-war" building in "prime" or even slightly less-than-prime location?

ph41: 105w73 is certainly not apples to apples, I'm just using it to illustrate the way markets price combos. 161W75 (crumbs building), classic 7 wreck, went into contract quickly a few months ago at last ask of mid-2s. So fewer usable bedrooms, terrible condition, doorman bldg, lower maintenance, IMO a slightly worse location on Amsterdam.

There is always a thirst for more space at a lower price point than a classic X, but one has to be careful about overpaying just bcs it's cheaper/sqft. And don't discount the board factor. It's probably easier to buy the adjacent apt to yours and combine, rather than buying a larger apt already assembled on the market in terms of board approval.

Me: I'm not a typical Classic X buyer and I have a very high tolerance for renovations. I have a horror of invasive and fussy co-op boards, high mtces. You asked for an example. If I were in the mood for a project, I would have bid on 67 RSD a few months ago. Front 7 rooms of an original 11 layout. 12th floor, river views, low mtce (no doorman, low bldg mtge). I would have taken the chance on the dark rear-racing 4 rooms coming on the market. Beaux Arts building, Juliette balconies, 11 foot ceilings. 79th & RSD, so not prime RSD bcs of traffic.

nyc10023 - but don't you think that the neighbor who knows you want to combine with your previously purchased unit knows that they have you over the proverbial barrel? And will really sock it to you on purchase price?

And would you really move into an apartment that is too small for your current needs on the speculative possibility of being able to purchase (possibly years into the future) the apartment that would be the critical piece in constructing the "dream" apartment?

i would be interested to know how many buildings still have original 10's, 11's, 12's and how often they come on the market. i'm guessing not many and not often.

ph41: yes and no. I've done it before and sometimes neighbors just ask for "market" to save themselves the hassle. You could also offer to buy them an apt in the same line if that came up for sale. I wasn't willing to take the chance, so I passed.

uwsmom: not many. I think further uptown there may be more. There probably are original 10+s in the Dakota, recently one came up in the Ansonia.

perhaps try to buy the neighbor out right up front. i wonder how often that happens successfully. of course, you'd have to make it worth their while so you wouldn't necessary get a deal on that particular unit but you could still make out on the overall combo.

Sometimes you see owners of adjacent apartments trying to sell the units as a package. But it always seems that they, rather than the market, substantially over value the possibility of the combination. Seems as if the apartments usually go to sale separately. And this is not even talking about "restoring" the glories of a classic 10 or eleven (which have probably been substantially mutilated by the carving up of the original apartment)

I was under the impression that 151/161 W 86 still has many original 10 & 11 room apts, but if so they don't seem to come on the market, or maybe sponsor cut them up when non-buying convertees jumped ship. Of course, the room count reflects things like double maid's rooms, so the same space today would be fewer rooms.

I think the largest apt is the Goodmans' line at 161. 10rm.