Toren current pricing?

I'm interested as well. I'd consider buying if there were a serious price reduction.

41 units out of 240 have closed so far. Probably will get up to 60,that's 25%, then developer will have to think what to do with the other 180 units.

remember when they claimed "50% sold"???

They never got to 50%, and " in contract"would be a more accurate statement than "sold". Majority of those in contract are not closing.

any recent news on pricing? I don't see anything moving...what's going on?

Keep in mind that units that go to contract, however were never listed by the broker, will not appear under "in contract". they did reach 50% in contract, however some buyers have left the table and some are still around waiting for the sponsor to reduce the prices or haggle. the sponsor needs cash and at some point will cut prices soon, within the year.

The price has just been cut by about 25%. Anyboby, how much furhter price cut will be fair in the market?

"They never got to 50%, and " in contract"would be a more accurate statement than "sold". Majority of those in contract are not closing. "

Kaboom!

ive recently gone to check out toren(after some many good and bad things about it), and it would seem that theyve gone from $750 psqft to round $630 psqft. ALso, out of curiosity i asked how many of the units have closed? HIs response? "about half have either been closed or in contract so you might want to jump on it" So now my question is if anyone really knows the number that theyve closed, and if, based on what they currently know of the building, it is fair price or will there be further cut?

The building is definitely filling up. I'd estimate 40 to 45% occupied (closed) and sales claims 65% in-contract ( which means 20 to 25% of the contracts are waiting to close or have walked away ).

The prices are are between $570 to $670 per sq/ft and contracts "seem" to be going at about 2 per week. Buildings surrounding Toren, BellTel and Oro notably, are also moving at a similar pace. Avalon and Brooklyner are rentals and from what I've read are moving at a much faster pace. I've heard nothing about Brooklyn Gold.

The sponsor will probably be flexible in asking price by approximately 5%, although that's highly unpredictable and previous deals do not predict future results. : )

81 show as closed on streeteasy, actual number of closed units is 89. Count on 5-8 closings per month for the rest of the year; will easily clear 100 closed units by year end.

Remember that half of the 83 closed units (as shown by Streeteasy) are the 42 moderate income lottery units as indicated by the prices of the closed units. That means only 40 or so of the 198 market rate units have closed.

Hard to imagine people paying 500k plus for a 750 sq foot one bedroom, when forte, which is better located, had a mini-fire sale of 1100 square foot 2 bedrooms in the 500ks just a few months agao

Gatornyc is right about the moderate income apartments. It appears those do account for a good chunk of the closings.

caramia311: Forte was a foreclosure sale. The sponsor lost his equity in the building and Goldman Sachs pulled out of the building as well. A German bank then quickly cut the asking prices to below market levels to get rid of the building on its books. We may never see something like that again in Downtown Brooklyn, but you might see something similar in NJ by December. You could get a 2BR (1038sqft) in Toren however for around $600k now. I won't argue against Forte's floorplans, they were spectacular, but if you wait for something like that to happen again around DoBro or Fort Greene... you may never see it come to light.
When Forte had gone on fire sale (it wasn't mini, it was all out), sales had been dead in the neighborhood for almost 9 months. Sales have been far stronger than that as of 2010, so all the buildings I know of, even One Brooklyn Bridge Park, are liquid again.

"Remember that half of the 83 closed units (as shown by Streeteasy) are the 42 moderate income lottery units as indicated by the prices of the closed units. That means only 40 or so of the 198 market rate units have closed."

Nope. 22 of the closed units are the moderate income units. Some of the remaining moderate income units are in contract, some are still on the market. The moderate income units make up 25% of the closed units. Keep trying ...

"ive recently gone to check out toren(after some many good and bad things about it), and it would seem that theyve gone from $750 psqft to round $630 psqft. ALso, out of curiosity i asked how many of the units have closed? HIs response? "about half have either been closed or in contract so you might want to jump on it" So now my question is if anyone really knows the number that theyve closed, and if, based on what they currently know of the building, it is fair price or will there be further cut? "

Wasn't that the same exact claim they made a year ago?

You should say "thats what we were told by your staff a year ago... so there has been no activity since? or did contracts fall through"?

from what you guys are telling me, i guess the place still has the probability of getting a price cut

Not sure how what I said led you to think that. If you want to bet on a price cut, all the power to you. They're flexible right now, but I wouldn't categorize it as a pricecut situation.

it was more of a personal assumption. Since they have yet reached 50% close sales and it coming close to a year, i assume that there would be a chance of a price cut due whatever pressure influenced them for the previous cut. ALso, if i sound like i have no real inkling of what im talking about, i apologize. Im sort of new to this and merely going on whatever info and advice i can get from friends and internet.

Toren has been 50% "sold" for over a year now. As they lose contracts, they manage to tread water by lowering prices to get new people in, and slowly, slowly they close out sales (so the 50% gets more solid, not just in contract, but actually, really sold).
This spring should have been their shining hour: a little bounce in the market, FHA approved, low interest rates and an $8,000 credit. Yet they still have over 100 units left to sell. The only logical conclusion is that they will have to lower prices again.
I think that like many new buildings, they are loath to let go of the dead contracts, because it looks better to new buyers to be able to say "50% sold!" The likelihood that early to mid 2008 contracts will close is very slim, but it would hurt their marketing efforts to remove them right now. I would think that will wait until they have another 30 sales, and then they can remove the stale contracts and lower prices.

To maly

I see. Is there any method you could suggest where i could use this information to haggle for a good price? I ask this because i had thrown a asking price of 442800 for a 738 psqft 1bdrm around the 18 and 19 flrs, and they reply with strict persistence of a sticker price of 491000. I then proceeded to used the info bout the number of closings, in-contract, and price cuts they had over the year, which got me a deal of 470000, 6 months off of common charges and 3 year extend warranty on the appliances. Regardless of this deal, i made two attempts to have them lower the cost further, but they more or less are unwilling to make anymore cuts

Well, sometimes you just have to wait for the right moment. All you can do is walk away, with a polite e-mail to the agent asking them to contact you if 1br ever get under $450K. If you try too hard to negotiate now, they figure you really, really want it and will dig in.
If you don't hear back, call or e-mail at the end of September. This sort of patient, polite persistence can work.

Maly,

I originally signed my contract in mid 2008. Walked away from the original contract, the building came up with a revised offer (effectively got a 25% discount) and I am going to close in a few days. I suspect many of the other mid 2008 contracts will also close with the revised pricing.

yes, I think that is why they cannot do a public price slashing right now. They will try first to negotiate until they have closed 50%. Once that backlog is dealt with, they will still have over 100 units (maybe as many as 110-115, depending on how many people will close with a discount.
Right now, they have 82 sold, 54 in contract. If they are flexible with pricing, they could have their magic 121 units sold by the end of September, and then they don't have to play games any more.

Maly,
They already did a public price slashing in April of 22 to 25%.

It's good to hear you got to $470k for that floor. Evidence shows $450-470k is about right for most of the 1 bedrooms at 738 sqft. Unfortunately, they are selling again they're not as desparate. So politely walking away wouldn't hurt, but I doubt they'll run after you since business is flowing again. The only shread of urgency they have is they need to have 75% of the building in contract by the end of the year, which they're only 10% away from, 24 apartments, or 12 weeks/3 months.

I encourage you to keep firm as well and wait if you have to, but you may just be wasting time instead of picking out drapes and fun stuff like your TV.

"o politely walking away wouldn't hurt, but I doubt they'll run after you since business is flowing again. The only shread of urgency they have is they need to have 75% of the building in contract by the end of the year, which they're only 10% away from, 24 apartments, or 12 weeks/3 months."

A point with merit. The building has gone from empty to people moving in every week. Streeteasy hasn't fully listed all the closings either - there have been quite a few and it's hard to keep up. While the units are not "flying off the shelves," they are moving steadily enough that the developer has a firm limit to negotiation. If you like the apartment and want to move for a fair price, go for it, if you really need it to go down lower, you can take the risk, it may pan out, it may not, but the 738 sq ft apartments are pretty popular.

Nobody is buying the more expensive units though. Any thoughts?

That's just the case in general. You see that all with all these 10 projects ( Toren, Oro, Avalon, Brooklyn Gold, BellTel, Brooklyner, 80 Dekalb, Be@schmerhorn, One Brooklyn Bridge Park, Forte ). The more expensive apartments go last because at that point, because people won't have a choice. Right now is the time to snatch up the good deals, or haggle the expensive apartments down in the end, however in the end, the developer will sell them when he feels comfortable. You can always demand top dollar for the last pieces.

"Right now is the time to snatch up the good deals, or haggle the expensive apartments down in the end, however in the end, the developer will sell them when he feels comfortable. You can always demand top dollar for the last pieces."

I actually rather strongly disagree with this. There might be a few cases where you're right, but for the most part, developers are eager to wipe their hands clean from a project once they're comfortably in the black (and in most cases, they are by the time they're down to a small handful of units). That's when buyers can potentially get a "steal."

That holds true as well. I would love to be the buyer in that situation, always feels good to get a "steal."

except you get the most undesireable units at this point-- probably a good deal if its for a rental prop but not to be your primary residence unless you are not particular about where you live.

kiz, totally true - there's that much risk involved if the layouts you prefer are gone. But you may luck out as well, esp if your tastes are on the quirkier side.

I'va also found that if it is a really good deal most likely someone else will have access to iy before you

That's absolutely correct. Some of the terrace apartments went for unbelievable low prices, but they were friends of the builder.

I really wouldn't worry too much about not getting something you want in Toren. 3 years into marketing, 10 months after closing started, and it's just sold 35% of the units, with another 20% in contract. Unless you are really set on getting that 600sf box on Flatbush (the real usable square footage of the "738sf" units, there is no reason to hurry.

"I really wouldn't worry too much about not getting something you want in Toren. 3 years into marketing, 10 months after closing started, and it's just sold 35% of the units, with another 20% in contract. Unless you are really set on getting that 600sf box on Flatbush (the real usable square footage of the "738sf" units, there is no reason to hurry."

I'm curious as to where you get your numbers. I know people who have closed recently and they are not listed as closed yet. It's much higher than 35% and there really are a couple closings a week at this point. Also, it began selling in May 2008 - which by standard calculation would be 2 years. The building has been open for less than 6 months. Justify yourself whatever way you please, but use real numbers.

nogo, maly's numbers are real numbers. Of the 83 closings to date (34.5% of the available units), there were 15 closings in June and 4 recorded thus far for July. Even if you assume that there were 10 additional closings in July that have not been recorded in ACRIS yet, that only brings Toren to 38.75 percent closed. So the closed percentage is not "much higher than 35%." And even assuming that another 20% is in contract (I have a tough time believing those contract numbers), it is safe to assume at this point that many of those are early contracts that will not result in a closing.

also, at least 25% of the closings to date are the lottery units (if you believe lilbitofluck's numbers which I find dubious -- are they from Toren? You can't distinguish a market rate unit from a lottery unit on SE except roughly by price), so the closed percentage for the market rate units is at best 34% and more likely 28-30%.

Any unit 5th floor or lower is mkt rate.

OpenDoBro, the "expensive" units at OBBP have been moving well with many closing of units in the $1.3-2.5 million range. Units have been selling across the price ranges. Same can't be said of the other buildings you mentioned.

I would agree with that.

"ogo, maly's numbers are real numbers. Of the 83 closings to date (34.5% of the available units), there were 15 closings in June and 4 recorded thus far for July. Even if you assume that there were 10 additional closings in July that have not been recorded in ACRIS yet, that only brings Toren to 38.75 percent closed. So the closed percentage is not "much higher than 35%." And even assuming that another 20% is in contract (I have a tough time believing those contract numbers), it is safe to assume at this point that many of those are early contracts that will not result in a closing."

There were over 30 in June and several more than 4 in July (I know people are living there and they got this information from actual reliable sources - the people who fix the building for closings and the people who perform the closings). They're not all up yet, not even close. They certainly aren't 75% sold, but public information is slow to be updated. Several floors are now fully occupied, so I would come visit on a Saturday afternoon and see how many people are moving in instead of just trusting public sources that can be slow.

I actually protest. As a resident, I rather have people who are passionate about the building and the neighborhood living there, rather than those who will only follow others if they can afford it. The nunbers don't lie, but if you need to move somewhere based on numbers, go to NJ city.

Turn, the people who prepare units for closing and who do the closings work for the building. Not exactly perfectly reliable sources. There may be a delay in the publicly available info being updated, but it you can't question its reliablity. After 30 days most, if not all of the closings for the prior month should be available on ACRIS and therefore SE. A few closings may be missing but not anywhere close to more than half of them.

And consider that to date the most closings in a month was in February with 23. There were 19 closings in March, 9 in April, and 4 in May (note the substantial month over month decline). Even accounting for a rush to close to take advantage of the expiration of the home purchase tax credit, do you really think that there were more than 30 closings in June? At 15 closings June was already significantly better than April and May. Also, there are now 6 closings listed for July with a closing up for July 19, which is about right as there is usually a 2-3 delay for the closing to show up on ACRIS. If there are closings in June that are not up yet, it is only a few at best.

I am not trying to be negative on Toren, just trying to counter the rampant practice of overstating the sales and contract numbers and provide accurate info regarding closings.

And I agree with OpenDoBro, the numbers alone should not deter someone from a purchase, but they should get you an early participant discount. There is more risk when the sales numbers are low and in this market the buyer should get a discount to compensate for that risk. Indeed I purchased at OBBP when it was 1/3 sold, but I did my own due diligence in verifying the sales numbers and that's all I'm suggesting anyone do including potential buyers at Toren.

Thought I'd revive this thread for a post-summer update: Dewyagi, your first little price cut has been served.
On the numbers side, modest progress all around: only 90 sold (maybe 92 if you believe the broker), 54 "in contract" (definitely inflated, as some units are "in contract" and also were relisted in September - see 1403), 33 available for sale officially. Five months into an official 24% price cut, still no traction, so the developer gives a modest 10% on a few units. They're still looking for the clearing price, a mini-step at a time.

Can somebody comment on the price of the 02 studio units? Toren is asking about $50 more psf than penthouse units with the same view.

Slpn, i think your time has arrived. The last closing at Toren was for a 1BR for 450K. You asked how long it would take 3 months ago, and now you have your answer.

To continue with "GATORNYC", when the contracts get sent out to your attorney for "attorney review", you experienced real estate attorney does the "due diligence" of the offering plan, building financials, condo by-laws, condo minutes and interviews the managing agent. It is at this precise moment the attorney finds out how many units have sold and closed, how many are in contract, how many are available for sale, etc. These numbers change constantly as the loan commitment process takes approximately 45 to 60 days from the fully signed execution of a contract, depending on who you use as your lender and if the lender has tough lending guidelines, then comes the walk-thru and prepartion of the unit before closing takes place. This could be approximately 60-90 days approximately. ACRIS does not point out all of this, from the date it is recorded you have to think this deal could have been in process 2-3 months before it "sold and closed" and became public information. This is why you have to hire a highly experienced attorney who has done many sponsor sales and know's the process. That's the smart way of moving forward as opposed to getting advice from an "opinion" someone places on the internet...

The current pricing at torn seems to be very reasonable and they are willing to negotiate the price within about 10-15%

Jim Endress, buyer's broker