For those who want it all except to pay for it

started w/ singing "You've lost that loving feeling"

then minor quotes whenever possible at every flipping meeting...
"classsified... I have to kill ya"
"that's a negative"
"you can be my wingman"
and on and on.....

No worries, Top Gun was never a repertoire in any of my circles.
It was always Scarface, Goodfellas, Star Wars and Star Trek.

Helen THomas' parents are from Lebanon.

"Helen THomas' parents are from Lebanon."

... so you're saying that she's anti-Jewish because they were Christian?

> RS, most of the world agrees with Helen Thomas, and even the British did in 1946.

Most of the US agreed with slavery at one point.

> One thing is to say blacks, who were brought here against their will 400 years ago, should go back
> to Africa, and another thing is to say that people who just emigrated to Israel have a right to move
> back after 2,000 years and kick out the people who have been living there because "God gave it to
> them."

If you think that all Israelis just moved there, you are as ignorant at Ms. Thomas.

No surprise.

> It's sort of like if I moved back to Albania and claimed it as my own because my ancestors were
> kicked out by the Muslim Turks.

Ironic, considering the Palestinians are asking for right of return for those who left (and not at the hands of the Jews).

You just blew away a healthy chunk of the pro-Palestinian argument.

> That opinion doesn't make somebody an anti-Semite

agreed, just ignorant.

> most of the Jewish people I know and am related to agree with her.

Find me one Jew who thinks the Jews need to return to Germany and Poland.

> And in either case - even in the case of blacks - if that's what you think you should have a right
> to say it.

Sure. And you have the right to be stupid and destory your own career.

Sure, she has the right to say its. Thats free speech.

Freedom from the consequences of free speech is NOT free speech.

> Where is there any proof that Israel, to paraphrase, "knowingly slaughtered innocent civilians,
> women and children"? That is a lie made up by the vile and the idiotic to try to justify terrorist
> attacks against innocent Israelis.
> Maybe Hamas should stop Palestinians shooting rockets from and hiding in schools and hospitals.
> Disgusting.
> aboutready- answer

Yeah, its ironic that so many of the folks who are complaining about the loss of civilian lives have not an f*ing PEEP about the folks who *intentionally* target civilians. Or use them as human shields.

Not an f*ing peep.

The hypocrisy is simple veiled anti-semitism.

It's not as if she's not of retirement age.

Richard Cohen has a good article about what happened after WWII when Jews actually did try to go back to Germany and Poland:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/07/AR2010060702583.html

"Muslims feel unfairly treated and in large degree they have been shafted by US foreign policy courtesy of politically connected, well-funded radical Zionists and neocons who are as much terrorists as any Jihadist"

Hmm... Muslims hated Jews and targeted civilians well before there even was a Jewish state.
Your logic is horrific... something can't be the cause if it came AFTER!

You want to play the Muslim victim card, but it is the Mulims who not only initiated the violence and hate, but continue and promote it without hesitation.

> You're on a slippery slope when you fire people for what they say, LICC.

Thats moronic.

If I fire someone for badly representing my company, thats not a slippery slope. NOT firing them is a slippery slope.

It is moronic NOT to fire a politician who is supposed to represent the country because it turns out he's racist.

It is moronic NOT to fire a "journalist" who exhbits major bias on a subject for YEARS. The stupid thing was not getting rid of that bigot years ago.

"Richard Cohen has a good article about what happened after WWII when Jews actually did try to go back to Germany and Poland:"

Btw, add France to that list. Last year, much coverage of how Jews were being targeted for violence in Paris!

(and I'm not even bringing up the Jews run out of Argentina in the last 10 years... or out of Baghdad or everywhere else in the Arab region)

swe and licc go f yourselves. there's not a peep out of me because you've turned this thread into a circus and not just a stupid but benign one like they usually are, but a foul one.

I came damned close to marrying a Jewish man (decision not to had nothing to do with religion), etc etc.

How simplistic to say that anyone who disagrees with you is anti-Semitic. you'd be amazed at how many of the liberal posters here are Jewish

Btw licc I'm surprised you haven't realized I have you on ignore. don't expect answers generally from me. I have a lot of time but even so I have minimal standards as to how I spend it. and it's not reading your nastiness. Take up arms already. Fight unnecessary circumsision particularly if paid for with public monies. Fester in a pool of your self- righteous anger and superiority as you convince yourself that our military actions are perfectly justified while our aid to the less fortunate is waste.

"I came damned close to marrying a Jewish man (decision not to had nothing to do with religion), etc etc"

I can't be a racist, I have black friends!

> How simplistic to say that anyone who disagrees with you is anti-Semitic.

Now THAT is the strawman of the day!

You really are an idiot swe. Really. please. I doubt you have ever cared about someone enough to consider marrying them (you'd have to get over your complete self-absorption at least for a couple of minutes) but hopefully even you'd understand that marrying someone is different than having a "friend"

i'm actually very curious as well. ar, do you consider the state of israel a mistake that should not exist? simple question

Debt to rise to 19.6 trillion dillars by 2015. Keep on wasting you time arguing about the jews.

it's not a simple question and it is derived from a misrepresentation made from an earlier comment which was never intended to be interpreted as such.

enough of the racial witch hunt here. if I wanted to discuss this I'd be on a political board.

It depends on whether Israel's creation was a mistake? That can only be interpreted as a YES. And this confirms that being liberal does not necessarily make one more open minded and accepting than a Conservative. Liberals can be just as prejudiced as Conservatives.

Interesting. I didn't say that. You just did.

And where if that were true would that indicate prejudice? just curious. not that I have any opinion mind you. just wondering.

aboutready
'it's not a simple question and it is derived from a misrepresentation made from an earlier comment which was never intended to be interpreted as such'

you mean, it depends on what the meaning of is, is? your lack of a denial is quite telling. it seems you've just had your very own Helen Thomas moment. Does this mean you'll be retiring from Streeteasy?

That was the funniest comment I've heard all day!

No printer I'm not embarrassed in the slightest. I think thAt those on here who can blithely state that it was an outcome to a very difficult situation that isn't and wasn't extremely complex and mired in various political, religious and social issues and who use the automatic assertion of racism toward any who dare mention same complications are closed minded and prejudiced.

that's a lot of fancy talk, girlfriend, from a person who is always very concise.

forget other comments and their unintended interpretations.

do you believe the creation of israel was a mistake?

if you have a strong opinion, of which you have many, that you believe is supported by historical facts, just own it. should the modern state of israel never been created?

No lucille honey I don't have a strong opinion. If you'll have noticed I generally stay out of the foreign affairs discussions except to the extent that they have currency or trade implications.

But I think my comment to printer is sufficient. I wasn't here to comment so much as to what I thought was right but as to the fact that the commenters seemed awfully one sided. I think it is undeniable that the new state was imposed upon others in a politically volatile manner. I have never taken the time to research the issue in any depth and unlike some I don't opine out of my ass

But i will note that prejudice takes many forms, and I've seen it on this thread in many ways

Hope that satisfies but if it doesn't I don't really care

the new state was imposed upon others in a politically volatile manner

A little education. It was imposed upon both Palestinians & Jews, the area was partitioned. And the volatility was the result of a war seeking to undo a compromise decision by the United Nations.

so the Jewish people were already occupying the land and they just changed the boundaries? I guess I am uneducated. I always thought they created a new state.

it is certainly undeniable that all states are imposed on others in a politically volatile manner, i agree.

no need to get snippy, i respect your opinion on many issues, and your contentious disregard for other's approval is duly noted, as always

I thought you disdain the un

> You really are an idiot swe.

I guess logic and facts have escaped you.

> Really. please.

Yes, really, please.

> I doubt you have ever cared about someone enough to consider marrying them (you'd have to get over
> your complete self-absorption at least for a couple of minutes)

I'm married.

Now sit your ass down and go f yourself (which is exactly what you said to me).

> but hopefully even you'd understand that marrying someone is different than having a "friend

If you think folks can't intermarry and still be bigots, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

But, hey, don't let facts, logic, or intelligent argument stand in your way. Make things up and curse me out because you have nothing else.

if you call jewish people living in a muslim country "occupation", yes, your understanding is correct

Sorry Lucille. The battles diminish me occasionally. I like your content as well

"I guess I am uneducated"

in this matter, clearly the answer is yes. luckily you have plenty of time and the intellectual capacity to change that.

" I think thAt those on here who can blithely state that it was an outcome to a very difficult situation that isn't and wasn't extremely complex and mired in various political, religious and social issues and who use the automatic assertion of racism toward any who dare mention same complications are closed minded and prejudiced. "

Again, superstrawman time!

OF COURSE its complex and mired in many things. And OF COURSE folks on either side aren't automatically anti-semitic or anti-arab.

But it doesn't mean they aren't....

And when the hypocrisy pops up, you generally have a good sign.

But, hey, ar is already at the curse you out stage, so why would logic matter?

ar, i'm confused: you appear to not acknowledge that creation of israel was a mistake but argue otherwise in every post. i actually think it's perfectly fine to have that point of view, it doesn't make you a racist at all

"so the Jewish people were already occupying the land and they just changed the boundaries? I guess I am uneducated. I always thought they created a new state. "

finally! admitting you don't know what you are talking about!

You

How many times do you cite your straw man?

Thank god you've eased off of the pot calling the kettle...

Oops. Swe you do realize that you are a total joke here? how many people even respond to you these days? I'm quitting.

Lucille where were the Jewish populations in what is now israel prior to the end of WWII. I'm not asking to be contentious I really don't know

A.R.
Do you think the Jews should go home to Poland and Germany? I'd like to know.

hebron, for one.

i think that if look into the events that led to the creation of israel in their historically chronological order, you will find that facts, reason and logic overwhelmingly support israel's case. and that most people who side with the arabs have little but their emotions to support their argument, for the most part they don't actually know what happened and don't care to learn.

No se10024 what I am arguing is that the creation isn't a black and white situation. If you follow my Econ comments you'll see I take a similar stance there. Thingsblike the creation of new countries by fiat and trying to keep dying economies going don't have simple answers

But I'd agree Im not racist in the slightest

You do realize that there were less than 750,000 people living in the area prior to 1922 and Jews were over 11% of the population(this prior to WWII), with Jews having lived there since before the Temple.

ar, i agree, but you really should educate yourself on THIS subject... nothing is ever black and white, but lucille spelled it out well above
you can only carry moral equivalency so far, at some point facts take over

se at the very least I'm glad to see some thoughtful discourse appear. And that was largely my problem with this thread. A knee-jerk response that someone is prejudiced because they question something is not thoughtful.

It's not like I know nothing. Just that I know enough to know I don't know a lot.

see comments by socialist, et al for why this thread degenerated

I think we should close this thread out.

Oh well. Printer knows all about everything so maybe he should just opine.

Rs why should we close out yourvown thread? Hmm?

What does this discussion now have to do with the 22 year old low skilled single mother, unemployed with a 3 year old child? How do Jews have anything to do with the fact that this woman was and remains irresponsible and there is a high likelihood that all of the dollars that will need to be spent on this child will likely create the same situation in another 15 years? We can't pay for everything, but we should pay for Americans who have contributed to our country, Americans who are past their prime years, Americans who are down on their luck, but definitely not women like these and their children. This woman's story does not tug on my heart strings.

ar- Does Israel have a right to exist? Was its creation a mistake? These are direct questions with yes or no answers. My answers- yes Israel has a right to exist. No it was not a mistake.

All your hemming and hawing doesn't disguise that you are a bigot.

You have spewed lots of disgusting views on this site, and now at least everyone can clearly see that you are a disgusting bigot. Thanks for that.

Those are pretty strong statements to be making.

For those who see Helen Thomas thing as a freedom of speech issue: free speech is NOT CONSEQUENCES-FREE speech. People have the right to react to the spoken word no less than to speak.
She wasn't stopped and wasn't fired by Hearst; wasn't banned by the White House. She said something disgusting and a lot of Americans exercised their equal right to freedom of speech and reacted to what she said.

"My answers- yes Israel has a right to exist. No it was not a mistake."

...LICcomm, elaborate on your answers. Why? Why not?

'The Alien in the White House' by Dorothy Rabinowitz . A great article in the Wall Street Journal that should be read in schools across the country.

Is that the sequel to "E.T."?

The media has been known to caricature Obama as a sort of Mr. Spock. It's an image that resonates at times.

aboutready
'Oh well. Printer knows all about everything so maybe he should just opine.'

it only seems that way - in fact there are things I know little about. but i am happy to indulge - what would you like me to opine about?

pining for the fjords of course.

"The Brits also gave us the House of Saud, among other wanders of oil fascist regimes. Bravo."

Precisely, as the British and French Mandates post Ottoman Empire gave us half of the now "formalized" arab countries. The major problem is with one country, Israel and simply because above all else it's not a muslim country. If Israel never existed but say the Copts had their own country, it would be the exact same situation as a christian entity in the region would create the same turmoil.

And how many survivors are from Poland and Germany anyway, more died than survive. You had a miliion displaced arab jews as you had 1 million displaced palestinians. Everyone forgets about the arab jews and likes to blame everything on the european jew.

Two wrongs don't make a right but they make a tie.

So Israelis need to be a little more proactive and less complacent living on status quo. And Arabs (and I say Arabs because it's never the Palestinians alone.) need to accept a non muslim entity in their stratosphere.

Clear demonstrations of non violence paving the way.

The status quo clearly is not tenable. Israeli's do not want to control Gaza and the people in Gaza do not want to be controlled by the Israelis. Speak to most Israeli's and they acknowledge that the two populations need to untangle and seperate. One would hope there would be Economic cooperation. The difficulty lies in finding a partner who can deliver. Prior to 1967 the Gaza was controlled by Egypt and the West Bank by Jordan, but I don't see either of those two countries desiring to play a role in administering those areas now. In the 1970's Jordan went to war against the PLO and expelled them from their country. All parties need to come up with confidence building measures and come up with small steps that ease the tension. External countries like Iran that funnel weapons into the area are not helping either.

Has anybody considered the possibility of nuking the whole region and starting again with a clean slate? I don't care about the petroleum, because my preference is for peaceful, tranquil, placid, pacific sources of power like wind power and black power and people power and flower power. It's just the kind of fictitious internets entity I am.

Alanhart just advocated genocide as the solution for mid-east peace. Lovely.

"All parties need to come up with confidence building measures and come up with small steps that ease the tension."

who is the party, hamas?

Riversider, I merely inquired as to whether anyone has considered strategic defense for peacekeeping purposes. Don't put words in my mouth.

But I am lovely.

Yes, HAMAS is one.
I don't know if negotiation is possible considering their current objective. But it is true, you negotiate peace with enemies and not friends. One can hope.

Well I know it won't be the same as the eighties if Iran joins the radiactive club.
Because most assuredly after Iran has a bomb, Saudi Arabia and Egypt will need a few as well.

Not quite sure which pieces of the puzzle come after that but given the less talked about Shia/Sunni squabbles,we can replace the minute hand doomsday clock with the second hand paradise clock.

Total annihilation will be averted by the simple truth that everybody hates everybody else.

19.6 trillion in debt by 2015. Bring all troops home. No more foreign aid. Eliminate entitlements and get rid of the welfare state. And maybe, the leader of regime can one day get around to closing gitmo. How come you "progressives" aren't screaming about Irag and gitmo anymore? Stop arguing about the arabs and jews, they will be killing each other for the next five thousand years.

That's totally antisemitic, julialg. Is it a coincidence that of all the ethnic groups in the world, you picked the two groups that are semitic to call five-millenium murderers? Disgusting!

The leader of the regime just announced a 400 million dollar aid package to the palestinians. Great, more debt. What about the poor children in the U.S. ?

> How many times do you cite your straw man?

As many times as they get used!

"how many people even respond to you these days?"

far too many

"Lucille where were the Jewish populations in what is now israel prior to the end of WWII. I'm not asking to be contentious I really don't know"

Yes, we've gotten for quite some time... you just don't know. Glad you formed all your opinions and started cursing folks out before you had the facts straight.

"i think that if look into the events that led to the creation of israel in their historically chronological order, you will find that facts, reason and logic overwhelmingly support israel's case. and that most people who side with the arabs have little but their emotions to support their argument, for the most part they don't actually know what happened and don't care to learn."

Agreed. The arab side at least figured out to go for propaganda over the last 10 years... and its working! Interestingly enough, the Berkeley liberal-type was VERY pro-Israel 20 years ago, and its flipped around.

The underlying facts really didn't change, just the propaganda...

For those who want to consider knowing something before they spew bs, try reading "The Case for Israel" by Dershowitz. He makes the case so well, Jimmy Carter refused to debate him.

"You do realize that there were less than 750,000 people living in the area prior to 1922 and Jews were over 11% of the population(this prior to WWII), with Jews having lived there since before the Temple."

And that many of the Jews who came around that time BOUGHT THE LAND they inhabited from the ruling Turks.

Again, it is incredible how much ignorance is displayed in the anti-Israel arguments.

'That's totally antisemitic, julialg" The truth is the truth alanhart.

"se at the very least I'm glad to see some thoughtful discourse appear. And that was largely my problem with this thread. A knee-jerk response that someone is prejudiced because they question something is not thoughtful."

First off, AR, the knee-jerk response was YOURS. It was you who started the cursing out all on your own, when noone had even said anything about you.

Second, there is that strawman again. Do you think that if you repeat an untrue statement enough times it will make you right. NOBODY said that said that someone is prejudice because they question something.

Again, NOBODY said it here.

One more time, NOBODY said it.

Yet you have claimed it 5 times.

Talk about knee jerk... pot, kettle (just for you CC)

> It's not like I know nothing. Just that I know enough to know I don't know a lot.

That information usually (and should) stops people from making judgements on others.

"You had a miliion displaced arab jews as you had 1 million displaced palestinians. Everyone forgets about the arab jews and likes to blame everything on the european jew."

Bingo. All this talk of right of return... how many Arab countries want their Jews back?

Running around screaming "ignorance" is not going to help the general public hear and understand a de-propagandized view of the modern history and populations of the area, so I suggest you take it down several notches and make it your business to patiently explain the modern history, including the back-and-forth two-faced British promises as oil was discovered here and there in the region after WWI, and including the 400 years of Ottoman Empire rule, and the lack of any modern Palestinian nation.

But if you think that presenting only the arguments in favor of Israel is going to help win people over to that view, you're dead wrong -- they'll just feel manipulated, and that the portrayal is suspect.

it is absolutely astounding how many posters here have only one, true agenda - to try to discredit aboutready. it is beyond transparent that you are threatened by and jealous of her confidence and intelligence. to anyone with half a brain, you're discrediting yourselves, not her. enought with the witch hunt already. social, political and economic discussions can only go so far when deep-seated emotional issues are crapping all over the board.

glamma is definitely aboutready.. Nobody is that much of an ass kisser.

How can you discredit someone who was institutionalized for mental illness in the past?

Its morons like this to thank for the ignorance on the subject.

Thanks Jimmy Carter!

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/12/21/why_wont_carter_debate_his_book/

If someone taxes Paxil, are they allowed to drive or operate heavy machinery?

"it is absolutely astounding how many posters here have only one, true agenda - to try to discredit aboutready. it is beyond transparent that you are threatened by and jealous of her confidence and intelligence. to anyone with half a brain, you're discrediting yourselves, not her. enought with the witch hunt already. social, political and economic discussions can only go so far when deep-seated emotional issues are crapping all over the board."

I can't tell if this post is serious, or a joke.

i'm not trying to kiss a** and i'm definitely not AR. it's just really annoying when every thread turns into the same thing, and it also really takes away from the quality of the discussion.

omg, this gets sillier...

"Nor is Carter the unbiased observer of the Middle East that he claims to be. He has accepted money and an award from Sheik Zayed bin Sultan al-Nahyan , saying in 2001: "This award has special significance for me because it is named for my personal friend, Sheik Zayed bin Sultan al-Nahyan." This is the same Zayed, the long-time ruler of the United Arab Emirates, whose $2.5 million gift to the Harvard Divinity School was returned in 2004 due to Zayed's rampant Jew-hatred. Zayed's personal foundation, the Zayed Center, claims that it was Zionists, rather than Nazis, who "were the people who killed the Jews in Europe" during the Holocaust. It has held lectures on the blood libel and conspiracy theories about Jews and America perpetrating Sept. 11. Carter's acceptance of money from this biased group casts real doubt on his objectivity and creates an obvious conflict of interest."

"But if you think that presenting only the arguments in favor of Israel is going to help win people over to that view, you're dead wrong -- they'll just feel manipulated, and that the portrayal is suspect."

Which is why I'm not, and I reference the book that does it well if they care to actually learn the facts. But if those same folks will spew ignorance, of course I'll knock it down.

If someone almost married a Jew, is their opinion on Israel more credible?

"i'm not trying to kiss a** and i'm definitely not AR. it's just really annoying when every thread turns into the same thing, and it also really takes away from the quality of the discussion."

Agreed.

Of course, that means you have it backward.

I consider the fact that AR came out with "go f yourself" unprovoked (I hadn't said anything to her or about her) as an example of exactly that.

Blaming others for that... hmmm...

> If someone almost married a Jew, is their opinion on Israel more credible?

of course not... particularly when they have since admitted they don't know much about it.

If almost marrying is a substitude for actual knowledge, it makes it less credible.

aboutready doesn't need anyone else's help in being discredited.

alan- why don't you answer the questions? Do you believe Israel has a right to exist? Was its creation post-WWII a mistake?

The irrational mass-psychosis that is Anti-semitism is the only enduring and unifying sentiment in the world, even among the nations that never ever had a Jew living among them. For 5,000 years, mind you.
Even today, only one generation after the Holocaust, the Jews seem to be the only people that everyone's entitled to have an opinion about. And make that opinion known. Let's talk about the Irish. No? Okay.

finallyjoy, you probably see yourself as an activist of some sort. Your spit is everywhere.

"'alan- why don't you answer the questions? Do you believe Israel has a right to exist? Was its creation post-WWII a mistake?"

Ok this thread's got a bit too much passion, this is a real estate website.
Right to exist? your asking the wrong people and the wrong question.
because,
A) It already exists
B) It's creation no more or less a mistake than Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, etc.

So....how about them Kurds? Anyone?

i think alan's feelings are that we should nuke the kurds out of existence. i hear he is a proponent of genocide.

agree with trutskr back to real estate

The recent surge in housing prices in Israel may be caused by a speculative bubble that may prove resistant to higher interest rates, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development said in a report published Wednesday.

“Although the recent surge in house prices can be partially explained by low interest rates, there is a possibility that a speculative bubble is being created whose momentum may outweigh the damping effect of further monetary tightening,” the report said.

The OECD also called on Bank of Israel Governor Stanley Fischer to end his “frequent” foreign-currency purchases, in light of the size of the accumulated reserves and the prospect of “intensified inflation concerns.”

Prices of new apartments were 21 percent higher in March than a year earlier, the Finance Ministry said Tuesday.

Fischer began regular currency purchases in March 2008 and has more than doubled reserves since then to a record $64.5 billion in a bid to limit gains in the shekel and help exports, which make up almost half of the country’s gross domestic product.

http://www.jpost.com/Business/BusinessNews/Article.aspx?id=176591

on a totally unrelated topic, i just downloaded the new Safari on my Mac, and the reader function is awesome. Highly recommended

"The underlying facts really didn't change, just the propaganda..."

No, no facts have occurred in the past 20 years. Solid point.

Arguably the best piece I've read recently on this lovely topic:

http://www.economist.com/node/16274081

"Swe you do realize that you are a total joke here? how many people even respond to you these days? I'm quitting."

aboutready, as you probably know, I totally agree. I do like to respond from time to time, only because of the amusement I derive from the highly predictable responses involving unoriginal name calling, repeated accusations of "following," and much frothing at the mouth. It's like a bark-happy, strangely loyal, mangy stray puppy. You can't really help yourself.