building at 845 West End Avenue

this is a prewar rental to condo conversion. The process of selling available apartments just started a couple of weeks ago. Its a beautiful building with great large layouts.The sponsor will be selling units as they come available. The apartments are beautifully renovated with central air and all new floors, windows, kitchens and baths.

$1,400+/sq ft. in sub-prime UWS? The 11th floor apartment has a decent layout but it isn't exactly remarkable. The location is not the best for public school. Nice block though. The 11th floor apartment at that price will have unremarkable views (East towards open roof tops. It does clear the roofs opposite it) from the living room and courtyard views from the bedrooms.

On top of that you will be sharing the building with RS neighbors who are already complaining about the changes.

Mind you I love the nabe. But because it ISN"T prime.

At least the CC/taxes are not ridiculous.

AvUWS, who buys a $3.5 million apartment and send their kids to public school? You have some odd priorities.

UWSFamily, do you think of public school as something similar to being on Relief?

The short answer is that many people buy $3.5 million homes and send their children to public school.

"who buys a $3.5 million apartment and send their kids to public school?"

Good point. Would definitely not want my kid interacting with the upper middle class kids at PS199. What would the neighbors think?

We've had conversations about whether its better to excel at SUNY than be mid-pack at an Ivy (my feeling is that school tierings are more important for graduate/professional school than undergrad never saw a job posting for a "top tier BA" but that's the MBA that many corporations require). I'll through a similar log in the fire. Not everyone can go to Brearly, Dalton, Trinity and the few other top private schools, even if money isn't an issue. So which is better, a second rate private school or one of the NYC publics like 6,41 or the UWS school? Of course there are individual child issues but I would think from a purely educational standpoint, B would be the more attractive option, regardless of what I paid for my apartment.

In other words there are some EXCELLENT public schools in New York City which are the certainly the equal of Grade B,if not Grade A, privates.

Depends. B, unless you don't have the stomach to go through the admissions process for middle school & high school.

Probably everyone saw the article in the RE section about prewar condo conversions and 845 WEA is mentioned as having half of the building as RS tenants.

1. Has anyone bought an apartment in this building or another building from this sponsor? Any info on the sponsor?

2. Has anyone bought a condo conversion in a building where half the apartments were RS? Anything particularly onerous to worry about in that situation? I did live in a rental building where half the building was RC or RS tenants and the owner/management company really skimped on building services.

what is a fitness room? There are no pictures and the wording sonds suspicious. Is it not normally a spa, gym or health club?

i think it's pretty obvious that a "fitness room" would be a small, under equipped workout facility.

That would be called a state of the art fitness room.

A fitness room is usually a small well equipped gym, but remember - small. Most of these rooms in pre war buildings were originally fall out shelters from earlier days so they have to work with the space they have.

So were talking two treadmills, a bench and a small space for stretching or pilates?

No, just a Slip 'N' Sue, plus a few nooks and crannies for hostile microbes.

Or a Wii

The apartments are really lovely. The "E" line, although smaller than the "A" line, has a really gracious layout. The floors that clear the neighboring building have nice views south and peeks of the river. The "B" line (which is their sales office) is also a really nice sized 6 but the maids room feels like a real bedrom with it's own tiny but sweet bath. I think the finishes are well thought out. Overall, I prefer it to some of the other recent pre-war conversions.

Nship - Nevertheless, the views that ARE there are very limited (I know what they are). "River" views are at best a NY "sliver of river", there are few aminities yet the price is $1,250-1,450/sq ft.

I don't see anything special here, certainly not for the price.

Saw the "B" and "D" line 2 bedroom "model" apartments today.

Alot of foot traffic. Lobby is beautiful. There are 2 separate elevators which each lead to only 3 apartments on each floor on each side of the building.

IMO, apartments feel spacious, but don't have a "prewar" look inside the units. Two floor options - white oak or medium oak. Kitchens have custom built white cabinets and some interesting features such as a water faucet above the oven for filling pots.

I thought that the "B" line might have a railroad apartment feel based on the floor plan, but it doesn't. "D" line is larger, but most of the views are poor except for a slice of river view through the master bedroom window. Neighborhood is peaceful and lovely.

what is a peek of the river?

you are disgusting.

There's CC again - the crazy old coot!!

Or maybe he prefers the "CANTANKEROUS OLD CURMUDGEON ! Hey CC - let me know which you prefer!!

cantankerous curmudgeon.. .I like that!

so...riversider....have you figured out what a peek of the river means?

well, CC could also be a "CRANKY OLD CODGER" but as an old codger can sometimes be amusing, and CC is very rarely amusing, I'm leaning towards "CRAZY OLD COOT" or 'CANTANKEROUS OLD CURMUDGEON"

http://mburgan.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/curmudgeon.jpg

For all of you who participated in the 500 WEA discussion, the sales associate told me that 845 WEA is also a Schwartz and Gross building.

Look who's calling someone crazy. Sybil herself, that crazy old hag.

Went to see the building. It's beautiful and the renovations are really well done.
That area of WEA is beautiful. Liked the B and C lines.

Incredible renovation and huge apartments. Seriously thinking about this one.

Does anyone have any insight as to where the apts are going into contracts? I.E what do you think they are taking for them- 20% off list- 10%?

Not sure what the discounts are; probably not that much, but you should always ask (with any developer) about the transfer taxes. Apartments are HUGE and finishes are amazing. (No I don't work for the developer).

Excellent conversion. Top of the line. Will appreciate as neighborhood pops.

"Will appreciate as neighborhood pops." 101st and West End hasn't "popped"? The appreciation since the mid-90s has been tremendous. I think that's why buildings like 817, 845 and 905 were converted in the first place. 845 looks much more like the trailing end than the leading edge.

Timing aside, 845 is very nice. Any word on a declaration, or the date of the AG deadline?

The units are lovely. I saw them in November. This is a building conversion from rental to condo, with a lot of renters remaining. I understand that. The developer owns the building. How does his majority ownership impact condo owners' rights if an association is formed? For instance, can he pass expenses on to condo owners in a less equitable manner than wouldnhappen if the whole building were owned by individual condo owners?

slatterj: The allocation of expenses is based on the percentage of common interest (PCI) allocated to each unit in the Offering Plan. Once the Plan is declared effective, the entity sponsoring the conversion will be responsible for the common charges and real estate taxes associated with the units it owns. PCI allocations are based on square footage, line and floor, not on who owns the unit. So the answer to your last question is generally "no". The first question, about condo owners' rights, is more complex; the simple answer is that the Sponsor will probably control the Board for quite a long time, and owners of individual units will have very little power of self-governance.

West81st: Thank you for your insight.

I really loved the apartments here, but thought that for the price there were too many negatives. Sub prime area, rent stabilized neighbors who have no vested interest in the building, ugly hallways and no amenities. I am suprised that people are paying 3+m for apartments in this building. Who ever buys here is also going to have a problem with re- sale, as the building will only be 50% sold and banks won't give a mtg to this building b/c they require 70% sold

Am I wrong or is the sponsor at 845 WEA controlled by the Wilpon family? Given the family's reported/purported money troubles stemming from the Madoff ponzi scheme (highlighted by the proposed sale of a stake in the Mets), do you think the Sponsor would be more willing to unload apartments at a discount? Just thinking out loud here... Seems like a lot of people like the apartments, a few have put their money where their mouth is, but the pricing still looks a bit rich to me...

Why do you think he is involved in 845?

Google sterling wilpon "845 west end".

interesting and yikes!

slatterj, I'd add one coda to W81st's answer -- the existence of an overhang of sponsor apartments not only causes governance concerns, it causes resale concerns.

The sponsor probably has built-in certain freedoms on the transfer of those apartments -- for example, they might be exempt from any kind of board process, or they might have greater allowances for pets than the building as a whole.

While this is usually a more material point in a co-op -- in most condos the board process is negligible and pet approval is pretty much guaranteed -- it's worth checking on.

Because if you want to resell your apartment at X and you're limited to one pet, and the sponsor wants to sell one of his units at X and it comes with no pet restrictions, his is going to sell while yours sits.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

front_porch: As a real estate professional what do you think of the pricing on these apartments?

Rob, I don't comment on pricing on other people's listings on a public board -- I'm here to try to capture posters like yourselves as customers, but most people who read this come in and out of my life, while I have to live with Corcoran forever.

If you want to get in touch with me privately (or have your agent do so), my email is: ali [at] dgneary [dot] com

If you don't, I will give you two general comments. One is that I love the neighborhood, and think it is fast zooming its way out of "subprime" -- walked past 845 WEA this morning on my way to Absolute Bagels.

The second is that I think the Wilpons can handle what they have to handle, though I think it does affect their ability to invest in my beloved Mets. There's a good article here:

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/wilpons-real-estate-empire-in-spotlight

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

wilpon and stirling has billions in investments, so danger here unlikely FOR NOW I would imagine, but how madoff trustees proceed will be something to watch - anybody know if govt has seized investor assets in other companies involved with madoff?

wonder if all expenses have been set aside to complete project, in case the victims seize assets?

IF the victims seize assets, what would happen to people in contract?

The Wilpons/Sterling Assets is being sued for $1 billion over their business dealings with Madoff. There's much speculation that they'll have to sell the Mets. I think they'd get rid of money pits like a conversion that won't pay off for years before they would part with a valuable asset like the Mets. I imagine buyers are already talking to their lawyers.

Two good stories on the extent of the suit:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/05/sports/baseball/05mets.html?_r=1&scp=4&sq=wilpon's%20madoff%20suits&st=cse

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/sports/baseball/06mets.html?scp=2&sq=wilpon's%20madoff%20suits&st=cse

This is being blown way out of proportion. Sterling has billions invested internationally; this building is pocket change to them. This conversion is not a "money pit"...the project appears well funded by an institutional lender AND Sterling is only a partial investor; Atlas Capital has the project as a joint venture.

SJM: Oh Please stop defending your crappy project. This whole thing stinks from start to finish. Subprime neighborhood, rent controlled neighbors, problem with the owner/developer who may have to dump the project or sell it to its partners and a REAL problem with re-sales. There is no way anyone is going to be able to re-sell these if they need to unless they have an all cash buyer. No bank will give a mtg to someone buying this on a re-sell as it does not pass the FNMA/Freddie rules of 70%sold 50% owner occupied as the developer only has 50% of the apartments to sell. Way to much risk for the asking prices. Probabaly why contracts are at a snails pace.9 contracts in 9 months. The Aldyn just started marketing last month and they all ready have 10 contracts.

Rob360: Although "Sub-prime" is literally an accurate label for the neighborhood (77th and CPW it's not), I'd call the location a solid "B". For a lot of people who don't care about elementary school zones, it might even be a B+/A-.

The other issues you mention would apply to most recent conversions. Financing is certainly a serious concern. Fannie and Freddie are not the problem in a direct sense; at these prices, most mortgages would probably be non-conforming anyway. But you're right that the choice of lenders will be narrow, and the terms may be onerous unless the borrower can put a lot of money on deposit at the institution. For example, Wells has a mortgage program for high-net-worth clients who maintain a minimum combined balance of $1MM; basically it's a device for lending yourself the money so you can deduct the interest on the first $1MM and keep your investment portfolio intact. I agree that mortgages will be hard to come by for anybody who actually needs one.

As for the the possibility of the Sponsor bailing because of financial stress, it does happen (see 230RSD, 219W81) and life usually goes on with a successor Sponsor. The jury is out on the Apthorp. ParkColumbus went south; I think the Sponsor's bankruptcy was just one flea among many on that dog.

In short, the risks here are significant, although not unique. The challenge is to price those risks correctly.

sjm223, I'm curious to know why you think the building "appears well funded by an institutional lender." Are you looking at publicly available sources? Sterling's partner, Atlas, doesn't have much of a track record. It bought a rental building on the east side for conversion in 2006, then barely avoided foreclosure on its loan in 2008 and abandoned its conversion plans. The building is now a rental. The company changed its name from Meyberry House to the Blake.

Rob360, interesting comparison between the sales at this building and the Aldyn.

interesting redpoppy: i had no idea about atlas. doesn't sound very good then. I'll stay on the sidelines for a while and watch this play out. I had been interested but.........

The institutional lender is Valley national bank- that is why they are giving mtgs to buyers

Not looking too good. Was interested but will stay on sidelines until this plays out. redpoppy: how did you learn about Atlas?

I looked too and liked them but felt the risk was way too much vs the price. If they were 15-20% cheaper I would be willing to take the risk, but not at these levels. I guess most people feel the same way as us, hence only 9 contracts in 9 months

Does anyone know if the developers are offering discounts off asking to those units "in contract"?

west81st: do you have any further insight into 230 rsd? Was looking to buy in this building but not clear on the financial standing of the building.

jeremy, I know someone in contract there. they are not doing anything.

any news on what's going on with this project?

Still all the work permits posted. Don't know why anything would have changed? Apartments are still listed for sale.

Just haven't seen a signed contract in a long time...

2 more signed Contracts. UWS condos are moving.

Does anyone know what discounts off list being offered? They are nice apts but perm priced and the sponsor agent is very cagey about giving info. They are def not effective yet got confirm yday.

Anyone know what level of disc off list at 845 ?

We're looking there. The building has very nice amenities and the smallest unit is a classic 6 I think so it's a family oriented building. The downside for us is just the location because it's pretty far up and far west.

Anyone know where these are closing? I know they closed on 4 last week, but dont know how to find the closing prices

The finishings in the real pics in some of the listings don't look as amazing as the renderings. I'm starting to think this isn't worth the premium over 905 WEA.

New2uws/Rob360: On the more attractive units, maybe 5% plus some negotiability on the transfer taxes.

Why are there still so many apartments in contract that have not closed yet? Why are the closing taking so long?

Good question. Ask Fred Wilpon ....