Brooklyn Heights, oh Brooklyn Heights

$570 per sq ft in Brooklyn heights? I wish it was true...

Ah I just replied to your last post Sledge!

It may be true. I think they come and go quick. One hug issue is how strict the coop boards are there tho. It creates a limited market with less "liquiity" to set the proper price, so to speak.

As someone who has recently been in the market there, I haven't seen a huge price drop there, as opposed to other areas. I also haven't seen much of anything in the $570psf range.

That being said, there will always be a high demand and low supply since its mostly brownstones and pre-wars in a historic district, so not too many new developments will be springing up in BH proper.

I just searched streeteasy for BH listings between $500 and $600...
there were 27 of them.

I've been looking in BH for a while, and haven't really seen prices come down much at all. There haven't been many deals made, as sellers here are either unwilling to negotiate or pull their listings after a while. In fact, we're now considering Manhattan as an alternative, since there are many more good values there. Eventually this will filter through to brooklyn, because everything in NYC is priced relative to Manhattan, but for the time being, we have a gross price imbalance that makes prime Brooklyn a very poor value.

This is why RE crashes don't turn around in a few months (or even years). Last one took 4-5 years just to stop falling... with occasionally bumps upward.

Prime BH is unique for its ambiance and limited stock of condos and other non-brownstone living quarters. It didn't dip much in the recession, and there will always be well to do people who will pay a premium to live there for its quiet clubby atmosphere and the excellent private schools. It 's a quality of life thing.

Of course, when the well to dos are a lot less well to do, and there is noone to replace the ones dying off (especially with the schools being inferior to say, cobble hill)... there is little to stop a decline.

And just because people have money doesn't mean they're willing to pay the same prices they once did. Do rich people buy their toshiba dvd players for $1k because that what they used to cost?

sorry somewhere, but I was A) talking about the 3 private schools and the well off in NYC still have plenty of money to pay to live in an enclave and will pay more to live there.

saiyar1 - did you stop by One Brooklyn Bridge Park? - it's a condo (don't have to deal every three months with hysterical middle aged women or cranky old attorneys, brrrr; you can have dogs, cats, kids - no restrictions on reptiles even...!), brand new, fantastic amenities, and it is in a park by the water...we moved there from Columbia Heights by Pierrepont (i guess you can't get more "prime" BH). For a long time I didn't even want to look there, thinking it was too far from my usual hangouts and too close to BQE. Neither bothers me now. my commute takes the same time, extra 5 min to get to the Key Food - i dont even notice it now. It's def not downtown brooklyn. Just sayin...

(running for cover - can only imagine the grief i'll get for even suggesting this condo...)

"and the well off in NYC still have plenty of money to pay to live in an enclave and will pay more to live there."

Same exact logic was used to explain why prime Manhattan wouldn't go down either. How did that work out?

Whoops.

Putting aside the amount people think the market in general will continue to drop (since everyone has a differing opinion), I was thinking it's not really attractive unless its very low 500's psft. Would you guys not even look at it as attractive unless it dipped *below* $500 psft???

blsconnect:

I had seen it from a distance but I was put off by the expressway. Maybe I'll take a second look. It doesn't hurt to check it out.

" I was thinking it's not really attractive unless its very low 500's psft. Would you guys not even look at it as attractive unless it dipped *below* $500 psft???"

I'm open to paying (possibly substantially) more for extra things I value. So I'm not one to say it has to hit a specific point. Plus, you can often find something below the rest of the market.

"saiyar1 - did you stop by One Brooklyn Bridge Park? - it's a condo (don't have to deal every three months with hysterical middle aged women or cranky old attorneys, brrrr; you can have dogs, cats, kids - no restrictions on reptiles even...!), brand new, fantastic amenities, and it is in a park by the water...we moved there from Columbia Heights by Pierrepont (i guess you can't get more "prime" BH). For a long time I didn't even want to look there, thinking it was too far from my usual hangouts and too close to BQE. Neither bothers me now. my commute takes the same time, extra 5 min to get to the Key Food - i dont even notice it now. It's def not downtown brooklyn. Just sayin..."

I thought you couldn't get a mortgage in this building?

I am looking at my possibilities:

Option 1:
~550sqft (maybe 575) 1 bedroom 1 bath with 11' ceilings and 15'x10' private outdoor patio, first floor obviously, needs full renovation for bath, bed, and living. Not the greatest light -> living room gets light from patio door/window, bedroom gets basically no light. No doorman, walkup builidng. Very near Columbus Circle and I can probably buy for $685/sqft.

Option 2:
Listed 700sq ft (really about 685) 1 bed 1 bath. Open kitchen into large living room, reasonable dining area, large bedroom. Only an average renovation (in terms of quality, aesthetic appeal, etc). Great light in bedroom and living room, 3rd floor and nice view of street. Business hours doorman, nicely renov'd lobby w/ elevator. Brooklyn Heights, very close to Montague. Listed for $570/sqft (I'd like to get it a good amount lower tho, maybe 500/sqft).

Thoughts on all this? Advice? What am I not considering? Manhattan is Manhattan in terms of RE appreciation, etc. But Brooklyn Heights is long established, family friendly and not expanding, so a bit diff. that the rest of BK.

Thanks a lot.

Saiyar, I've watched BH closely for a long while. You are correct, hasn't crashed. Doesn't seem likely to do so at this point. Personally, I doubt any real estate prices will seriously appreciate within the next few years. If your timeline is longer than 5 years, I would say go for it if you find a place you like and want to live in.

I wouldn't expect a 1st-floor apartment in Manhattan that gets no light and has no doorman to appreciate much unless we go into another housing boom (unlikely). On the other hand, if Manhattan prices do fall, those flaws are really going to hurt its resale value in comparison to other properties on the market with air, light, doormen, etc. Most people buy apartments they want to live in, so go for the appealing apartment qualities: great neighborhood, light, doorman, elevator, etc.

evnyc:
We would like to hold it for a long time.

As far as light, the patio provides the living room with good light but the bed room is in the back facing a building. It caught my eye because useful, outdoor space is always at a premium in Manhattan.

Great insight, thanks!

Any other thoughts, specifically on comparing the price/sqft? Any opposing thoughts on nearterm/longterm prospects for Brooklyn Heights?

Brooklyn Heights is a fantastic and protected neighborhood. There is little room for expansion so limited availability and always a demand, due to proximity to Manhattan, best neighborhood status of Brooklyn, and the private schools. It didn't contract during the crisis nearly as much as other areas. It is only getting better with the new park and the whole Brooklyn renaissance popularity. Barney's coop is moving here for a reason.

realestated:

Barney's coop? Can you explain that to me?

thx

as in Barney's the high end department store is opening a coop on Atlantic Ave in the spot that is adjacent to TJs
young folks with money moving to this area because their peeps are there and it's like a little and similarly yuppified upper west side as so aptly put by the Observer in a profile last week. And I don't mean this in a negative way. The Heights will keep value.

Isn't that Atlantic Ave area in Fort Greene, not Brooklyn Heights?

I found One Brooklyn Bridge Park rather disappointing. It could be great, but all the reasonably priced units are east facing and the common charges are high and likely to go higher, since it's on a land lease. The whole development is clearly geared towards the $million+ part of the market.

after all the bickering re 1 BBP--to hear it's a land lease

a simple rule for buying land lease apt's in NYC--don't--they are a shit investment

is it really a land lease??

"I found One Brooklyn Bridge Park rather disappointing. It could be great, but all the reasonably priced units are east facing and the common charges are high and likely to go higher, since it's on a land lease. The whole development is clearly geared towards the $million+ part of the market." Could you please explain, why will the cc's go up, and what's a land lease?

OBBP is built on land that the developer purchased and donated to NYS so that the park could be developed. The building pays $1.25 million annually in lease payments for eqch of the first three years then has increases of 3% annually for 99 years. At that point,, the building has the option of purchasing the land for $1 (one dollar).

This is very different from a traditional land lease where the ground that a building stands on is owned by a third party and ground lease payments are negotiated every ten or twenty years.

The Heights will see some more development in the near future - 20 Henry will be finished as will Love Lane Mews. Together these might add 120 units to the neighborhood, mostly large 2 and 3+ bedroom units. New development in the park had the ability to add 300-400 units in the long term, when OBBP sells out and the market rebounds. The neighborhood will never have Williamsburg style development or hipster/European cache.

Units held by older owned will continue to turn over, however these coop units tend to be small and in need of a gut renovation to come up to speed with the offerings of newer condo developments.

Btw, having viewed the offering plan, common charges will likely decline when the building converts to owner management. They factor in window cleaning at $360,000 per year ad cable television for the gym at $36,000 a year. Neither of these are likely to be true costs or sustained costs.

Taxes will increase as the abatement runs down.