69 west 9th street greenwich village

I lived there from 1985-2000 what do you want to know?

Ceilings are ~8.5 feet for the second floor apartment I saw. Hardly pre-war 9-9.5 ft ceiling I expect. Maintenance seems to be high and lobby needs renovation.

True, the ceilings are relatively low, but that is not the most serious issue. The corner at 6th Ave is not pretty and is quite noisy, the building is over a PATH station, unless someething changed Citarella's cheese dept could be smelled in lobby when I was there. The exterior is about as bad as there is in GV. The lobby has, I believe, been renovated, though. I didn't like any apartments or the building enough to find out about building finances. The maintenance is in keeping with post wars on East 9th, but those are also better buildings imo.

This is a building that fits one bill IMO: you are dying to be in this neighborhood, financial considerations have made most buildings around here out of reach and you can find an apartment for a steal here. Personally, I'd suggest waiting and saving more or scraping together a tad more money and looking into the post-wars on East 9th St between University and Broadway (30 E 9; 40 E 9; 55 E 9) which I think are superior in appearance, better layouts in most cases, better location and comparable maintenance fees.

Sorry, I got the building wrong. I confused this building with the pre-war next door.

Thanks for the comments they are so helpful. I can spend 1.8 and want to be in the area right around Washington Square Park and need 2 bedrooms/2 baths and would like a doorman building. So far I can't seem to find a nice apartment at that price.

At the risk of everybody telling me that postwars are inhuman because only veal would live in the inhumane conditions of having 8-foot ceilings, what's wrong with the reno at 2 Fifth Avenue?

I'm a downtown real estate agent, but no, it's not my listing.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

For $1.8 million you can look at any post-war for a 2 bdrm and 2 bath with money left to gut renovate and as ali says, these buildings are very well kept in the area, have very serviceable layouts, and are close to the park. Even pre-war nice units like this at 30 Fifth are less than you are willing to spend: http://img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/7/11266007.gif (granted, this is only 1.5 baths, but has very low maintenance). Maybe we can be more helpful readytobuy if you could be more specific about what troubles you are running into.

I have a question for ali regarding 8 ft ceilings. Is the 8 feet a true measurement that someone could take with a tape measure, from the floor to the ceiling? Or is there some other extra involved in the calculation, eg like with walls people measure from the inside or outside or middle point of the wall ... so with ceiling height, do you include half of the floor plate, etc. I've measured 8.5 ft in a building with 1/3rd up to ceiling windows, and it doesn't seem short in the slightest (granted 1/2 ft more than your veal standard).

ceiling heights are measured from the top of the floor to the bottom of the ceiling. I don't use a tape measure, I use a laser measurer (which my hubby bought me off Amazon and is the best toy ever) but they tend to measure either 8 feet exactly or 8'3", I don't know why.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

ali - that laser measure sounds great. Which one are you using?

I got mine from Gracious Home. Very handy, and I feel so powerful at these OHs. 9' ceilings, really?

nyc10023 - There seem to be so many different ones - hard to know which ones work well. What brand did you get at Gracious Home?

Looks like they don't make mine -- a Stanley FatMax -- anymore. It was this:

http://www.amazon.com/CST-Berger-TLM100-Distance-Measurer/dp/B000BDIRYC

ali r.

Thanks Ali - At least I now have a point of comparison when looking for a laser measure.

I am looking for some space, a true 2 bedroom in a doorman building on a good block in a well run building with sound financials that will allow us to use the apartment as a Pied a terre, at least for now. It would be very helpful if the apartment had a washer/dryer in the unit. The closer to Washington Square Park the better. A gym in the building would be great.

I do like the apartment at 2 5th but from what I have heard they had an accepted offer but after the buyer had an opportunity to see the financials they backed out due to strong possibility of a very long assessment with an unknown dollar amount as of yet. I am not sure if any of this information is correct.

2 Fifth is apparently rebuilding much of the facade and the project is barely creeping along from outward appearances. There is a black-out to outsiders on info about what this is costing shareholders which has only fueled speculation that the news isn't good. Based on the ever-growing large swaths of the white brick facade being replaced by green tarps it looks like the project is growing in complexity and sereiousness. For a building with relatively high maintenance already (well--high/normal for most in the area), a major bump in maintenance would unquestionably hurt values. But financing this through an assessement alone could cost a staggering amount as I would guess that $3-6MM would be the minimum cost of the project. The building's facade is a tremendous amount of surface area. And it has not looked well-cared for in many many years. Rather than spend money on silly amenities like a library or nasty gym or children's playroom, the board would have done better to maintain the physical plant better and keep the interiors from getting worn and shabby looking.

an apartment at this location not yet listed has come to my attention. renovated nicely, 2 bedroom, 2 bath with washer dryer and I think I can purchase it before he lists it for 1.2 does this seem like a fair price in this building.

I assume you are talking about 69 West 9 Street still. I'm curious what your thinking is since I also assume you've looked at the comps in the building. It is clear from Streeteasy that Apt. 4B -- a 2 bdrm, 2 bath -- was listed for 399 days and failed to sell at $1.1MM after having been listed to start at an insane $1.4MM. Beyond this, there is not a single sale I see of a 2bdrm, 2bath fetching a $1.2MM asking price in the building. One bedrooms are selling in the $700,000's though. So that would mean the seller you're speaking of is valueing an additional bedroom and bathroom at over $400,000!!! I don't understand it. FWIW, the combined units that have been offered for sale in the past are somewhat strange and not really good comps (one had outdoor space, the other layout included a 31' long bedroom).

Bottom line: $1.2MM for a 2bdrm/2bath in this building is far from a bargain and is imo, frankly, insane. At this price point, a post-war of 9th Street east of University would be far, far superior. I continue to fail to understand the attraction to 69 W 9--particularly at the absurd price of the unit you are considering.

And were one to ask at what price I think the 2bdrm/2bath should go for, I'd say if it were listed at $1MM or high $900K's, a negotiation could at least begin. $200,000 over the price of the one-bedrooms is about as far as I'd go for a renovated unit.

There is really no attraction to this building. I agree with everything you have said. I have not even seen the apartment yet but I just don't seem to be able to find anything nice in central Village and am really getting discouraged. We don't live in NY full time right now so have made several trips back and forth looking for this apartment. Your insight is always greatly appreciated.

Readytobuy,

In general, if you can't find what you want in the Central Village, you're either not a prewar person or you're not paying enough.

You also sound like you are a DIY-er rather than someone who wants a buyer's broker, but I would suggest that if you are working in a micro-neighborhood a buyer's broker would be of some benefit, because you would be tipped to things before they come on market.

As far as Two Fifth Avenue, $6 million is a really big number -- Ageloff on the 4th Street side just did a big project like this for around $2 million -- but divided among 350-some-odd apartments it's less than $20K apiece. The proportionate share for a 2-BR might well be more, but as percentage of cost of a $1.8 million apartment, it might still be worth swallowing.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Ali--you raise good points, as usual. The facade project at 2 Fifth remains an enigma to me. I see the green tarps seem static for now with no real change for many weeks. Looking at the rest of the facade more closely, there are actually various places where bricks have broken or just plain fallen out of the facade on floors far lower than the green tarps. It leads me to suspect that if the facade deterioration (likely from water infiltration) is severe enough to be visible in many places to the naked eye, then it is highly likely the actual damage goes far beyond what is seen. This can be a massive facade restoration/replacement project by the time it is done. Due to the building's many nooks and crannies, the surface area is huge. I guess all you are or I am saying is rank speculation, but it would cause me very great concern if I were doing due diligence on an apt there right now.

I am a prewar person, we live in a 200 year old fully restored tutor. I am also working with a buyers broker but her office is not in the area but she really does seem to be working very hard to find us the right apartment. I am concerned about the unknown at 2 5th as this will not be our primary residence for at least 5 years.

I have been looking at apartments at 1.8 and lower thinking I would be willing to renovate myself. Would I be better off working with someone that has more insight into the very limited area I am interested in?
I would love pre-war but I am hoping to keep maintenance at around $1,500 TO $2,000.

Personally I think you would be better with agent who really knows the buildings down here--especially if you are out of town. There is no downside to it.

any thoughts on the 3 bedroom at 45 5th that needs the complete renovation and has been on the market for a number of months.

Could be a great project, but I have no idea what the views are. It is also NOT a real three bedroom. It is a 2 bedroom with the dining room converted in plan to a bedroom which completely alters the space. The 3 bdrm configuration leaves only a livingroom as family space and no room for a table that everyone could sit down at. I think the end result would lack the grace the space would have as a 2 bdrm. But I suppose these are the compromises families make in NYC. Admittedly, given my views on owning children, I'm not the one to ask.

Thanks again. I was thinking 2 not 3 bedrooms. I have actually taken to quoting you to my husband now.

If you like the apartment at 45 Fifth, and you were going to take on a gut, and you get this at a terrific discount given its extreme condition, it could be the perfect find. The demo cost of a gut is a lot and carting all the debris away is time consuming. If that is already done, you save time and money. I didn't care for the renderings (esp. of the kitchen) of the prior renovator's architect, but what a great chance to bring in your own who can work with essentially a blank slate. Owners must be pretty anxious to sell at this point. Invite me to the walk-through! I love nothing more than eyeing a place for its potential. The idea of creating a customized NYC home in a prewar is about as good as it gets in my RE fantasy world. And fwiw, just over a year after moving into my own gut reno, just the act of walking into the apartment is a pretty great feeling everyday. No regrets--plus I'd do it again if the chance to take on a classic 6 came up down the line. (hi to the husband!)

Kyle is it really a 2 converted to 3 or two 1's converted to a 3? Looking at the other floors the layouts seem to be 1's.

Actually the 1's on the other floors are strange-- large apartments but with terrible kitchen.

Correct, pier. This is a combo of two one bedrooms I gather. It is the rare example of a potentially better sum of the parts. As for the kitchens, prewars had by-and-large just awful kitchen space. At the time they were built people didn't use kitchens to the extent or in the way we do today--they certainly weren't a "family hearth." Plus many people had cooks or housekeeper/cooks or, in some old buildings, tenants used a central dining room in the building that was considered an amenity where all residents could go to be served meals. Whatever the case, most prewars had kitchens crammed in next to maids' rooms and were built in an era without microwaves, dishwashers or fridges of the dimentions we have today.

Readytobuy.... I advise you to listen to Kyle. He's of the most valuable knowledgeable posters on this board. His neighborhood specialty is the central Village. (north of Washington Square Park) He is also extremely helpful with gut renovations having just completed his own. If I were you I'd invite him to your walk through and bring a tape recorder.

I have not seen the apartment but during the winter I sent my contractor to look at it for us and he called and said it was not for us. He knows us very well as he helped us build our house in the Hamptons. He said it was much smaller than advertised and no views at all, both sides looking out onto the apartment buildings on either side (seems to be located in the back of the building). We took his word without seeing it but perhaps we should see it for ourselves.

Kyle, and first I will second the endorsement of Kyle as THE authority on the area you are "ready to buy" in and would take his word like it came on a stone tablet from a man who looked like Charlton Heston before he went gun crazy, your comments that when prewars were built people "didn't use kitchens to the extent or in the way we do today" is only partially true. There seems to be great divide between those who see the kitchen as the center of the home and those who "have a kitchen because it came with the apartment". I mean Seamless Web has eliminated the need for even a menu drawer.

Thank you guys for the kind words (feeling little embarassed). I will revise my kitchen comments: for those looking to ingest less than 10,000mg of sodium a day from take out food, a usable kitchen and dining area is nice to have. I confess, www.seamlessweb.com saves my life at least twice a week when I'm too busy or lazy to stop in at Citarella, Whole Foods or Trader Joe's on the way home. But even if you don't use a kitchen a lot, it is still tough to squeeze a d/w,a microwave,a modern size 30" range, a big sink ( I like 'em huge and deep) and a decent fridge into the original configurations of most prewars. In this day and age, it is also kinda gross to have a potty in the kitchen which many prewars did.

readytobuy: as for views, you have to prioritise. Views are admittedly a top consideration when it comes to values. But so are light, space, layout, building, and location. Sometimes something has to give. If the apartment gets decent light even if the views are compromised, it may be worth considering. What could it hurt to look at it since you probably could get this one for a steal if you wanted it.