Mosque near ground zero

"it is as safe as any large city for a woman to walk around by herself."

kstiles99,
The downside to walking around alone is that the hawkers can be relentless in trying to sell you their goods & it can be exhausting having to deal with that day after day.

Also, good common sense: dress conservatively & ...... carry a chador in your bag

stevejhx
about 24 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse Somebody should maybe go to a Muslim country or two, or study a little history, to see their contributions to the world, which include, among other things, scientific method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham), navigation by the stars and the triangular sail, which allowed ships to sail into the wind. While the Christians were burning books and banning the classics, they were being stored in libraries in Damascus (Syria), Baghdad, and Toledo (Spain), and without them we would have no knowledge of Plato or Aristotle, as the early "Christian" fathers had burned those books as heretical.

Spend some time in Istanbul, get back to me with your ignorance.

it's wrong and sadly typical that this has become a referendum of islam and muslim countries, when that's entirely beside the point. but while we're on the subject, turkey is, indeed, a fascinating country. did you know that their constitution establishes a separation of powers between the three branches of government and guarantees such freedoms as privacy, religion, communication, expression, and property? did you know that every legal citizen is considered a turk. period. did you know they have a fiercely secular military which has acted as a powerful check to the encroachment of islamist politics into their society?

per wiki,

"On April 27, 2007, in advance of the November 4, 2007 presidential election, and in reaction to the politics of Abdullah Gül, who has a past record of involvement in Islamist political movements and banned Islamist parties such as the Welfare Party, the army issued a statement of its interests. It said that the army is a party to "arguments" regarding secularism; that Islamism ran counter to the secular nature of the Turkish Republic, and to the legacy of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. The Army's statement ended with a clear warning that the Turkish Armed Forces stood ready to intervene if the secular nature of the Turkish Constitution is compromised, stating that "the Turkish Armed Forces maintain their sound determination to carry out their duties stemming from laws to protect the unchangeable characteristics of the Republic of Turkey. Their loyalty to this determination is absolute."[36]"

neat, huh?

now, how about you visit one of ther other 48 majority muslim counties, do some romantic sightseeing with your boyfriend, and report back. or have you convinced yourself that your instinctive denial of who you are, your very nature, in these countries would be out of "respect" and not out a very justifiable fear for your physical safety.

funny that as a human with a growth between your legs, you encourage everyone to visit muslim countries. i would love to! you can't imagine how much i would love to visit the ruins of ancient persia. maybe you don't realize how naive you sound. or maybe it's just easier for you to pass as straight than for me to pass as a dude.

k, off to the beach. peace out.

"OK, fine, but how do you know the mosque won't be used as a recruiting ground for terrorists?"

You do the math.

In case noone has seen it, Park51 is on twitter and tweeting out responses regarding the planned building--
http://twitter.com/@park51

steve, keep up the good work! what an idiot. your postings grow more amusing as they become more prolific. oh, and ive been to istanbul - pretty much a shithole but enjoyed other parts of turkey. make your 2% today?

Turkey is really a beautiful country from North to South - East to West. You can absolutely walk around alone and at night, have you ever tried to walk alone at night in Italy or France and not get gawked at?? Its the same all over the world. If a precedent is established with this particular Mosque, have it moved or made into a historic site or have ConEd say they own the property or whatever it will be a grave day for the Constitution and the US. No one has a right to stop a religious group or site to be built as long as its legal! Legality is key and there is nothing illegal about this project. The founding fathers dealt with this when they arrived to the New World, so not sure why its such a big deal, oh wait I know its called IGNORANT PEOPLE on SE and its always the usual ones...

I support building the Mosque but those who oppose it are not ignorant they have strong feelings and must be respected.. that is also what this country is all about. thank you.

jahaaaaaaaaaaanh, i actually am not opposed to the mosque being built where its proposed although i must admit swe (go figure) made some pretty good points on why it may be okay to think otherwise. i was more reacting to steve after another one of his profilgate posts that ultimately pushed me to respond to his idoicy.

but now that you've joined the fray, pretty apparent who is thinking with broad strokes here. thanks for the lecture but pass - boring and sterile.

No, rangersfan ... swe has yet to post an exhaustive listing of every entity he himself has denounced, censured or condemned to eternal damnation, so he has no right to call this mosque-dude out on that. You and he will just have to accept that the mosque-dude tries not to engage in real-life flame wars. You have no choice.

Oh, and does wanderer's calling jahanh a cunt give jahanh the right to call wanderer a dodo?

Alanhart, now that you have had time rest on it, do you think that the murderous slaying of 3,000 innocent people is worthy of denouncement?

what does that have to do with this?

Jahanh....

Just checked a couple of your posts on SE....the one you made about the Millennium Tower (where I live) shows me that you are posting erroneous information on this site...it shows me that maybe YOU are the IGNORANT one.

It is a fact that ONE unit owner at the Millennium has a pending lawsuit against the building claiming that his water is not clean.
The water has been tested by an independent agency and found to be totally potable.
It is supplied by the city just like it is for every building in NYC.

By the way, I was born in Italy and I would rather live in Italy and be treated the way italians treat their WOMEN than in a muslim country where women are still stoned to death, lashed unmercifully and kept covered in one way or another!!!!

As far as the mosque is concerned, everyone should remember that on 9/11, people in mosques all over the world were cheering and dancing in the streets in celebration of the attack on the WTC.

Freedom of religion does not imply that you can kill people from other religions if they don't agree with you.

Radical islam believes it is their responsibility to kill all the infidels that are not islamic.
That is not freedom of religion....that is ignorance and hatred and it certainly doesn't belong in our neighborhood.

from the new yorker:

Like many New Yorkers, the people in charge of Park51, a married couple, are from somewhere else—he from Kuwait, she from Kashmir. Feisal Abdul Rauf is a Columbia grad. He has been the imam of a mosque in Tribeca for close to thirty years. He is the author of a book called “What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America.” He is a vice-chair of the Interfaith Center of New York. “My colleagues and I are the anti-terrorists,” he wrote recently—in the Daily News, no less. He denounces terrorism in general and the 9/11 attacks in particular, often and at length. The F.B.I. tapped him to conduct “sensitivity training” for agents and cops. His wife, Daisy Khan, runs the American Society for Muslim Advancement, which she co-founded with him. It promotes “cultural and religious harmony through interfaith collaboration, youth and women’s empowerment, and arts and cultural exchange.”

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2010/08/16/100816taco_talk_hertzberg#ixzz0wQiGHpre

printer, can you print me a list of all the incidents worldwide in the last generation that have involved the murderous slaying of 3000 or more innocent people, and which ones you've publicly denounced? African slave trade, chemical explosion, that sort of thing? And how about September 11, 2001 ... how many innocent people died of cancer that day? Where were your denouncements?

Or is it only that imam who is responsible for denouncements, not printer?

And printer, you still haven't told me whether wanderer's calling jahanh a cunt gives jahanh the right to call wanderer a dodo?

ah, couple of points: i did not read all of swe's points and your back and forth with him on this thread because quite frankly, i have seen that movie before if you know what i mean. i did read some of his posts on denounciation and thought they had some practical application in this case but as i said, i do believe its probably a given they have a right to build the mosque/enlightenment center/rolling rink if they desire to do so - even if it is perceived to be insensitive.

Oh, and belive me, i have a choice - lots of them, including in this instance but save that for another day. and the cunt/dodo dialogue. sticks and stones....

prada, love the millenium - lived there for two years. great building, even better water ;)

I've seen that movie too, but I'm waiting for the novelization. And I'm okay with the sticks but not the stones.

My point is, at least they're not building a Hare Krishna retreat there. Winky-face.

alanhart,

Whether the fact that you go through life with such a flawed moral compass is a result of your environment or something more native to you, I just thank god every day that you are very much in minority in this country and most of the world. If you can't see the difference between a leader of the Muslim community in this country and his reaction to 9/11, vs. my take on cancer, you are well beyond rational discourse. I don't know how horrible of an event would have to happen to you for you to right that compass, but I hope that it never happens. May you live in that Wonderland you've created for yourself in peace.

I was reading the comments section from a NYT article about this subject and someone suggested this is analogous to proposing Catholic churches should not be near schools due to the cases of sexual abuse by priests.

No printer, I can't see the difference between those two scenarios, and I can't see the difference between a medieval European rabbi's denouncement (or lack thereof) when the dumbass villagers think "the jews" did it, and the 9/11 equivalent.

Your basic premise is "the muslims did it", and thus all leaders of muslim religious and cultural groups have to step up and distance themselves from the incident. I have news for you -- the rabbi and his congregants weren't the guilty parties in the middle ages, and they don't need to tattoo that declaration on their foreheads.

Got it? Good.

So according to your analogy, you don't think the perpetrators of 9/11 were Muslim? Or they did it, but the fact that they were Muslim was mere coincidence? Let me guess, you are a Chomskyite who thinks that we brought 9/11 upon ourselves? So predictable. You really do need to get out of your echochamber.

No, I don't really like Chomsky as a matter of fact.

You don't think the perpetrators of some crime or another in the middle ages were jewish? [That's what your question sounds exactly like. So predictable. You really do need to get out of your feral Brooklyn "us vs. them" vomitorium.]

"You don't think the perpetrators of some crime or another in the middle ages were jewish?"

alanhart, what crimes are you talking about here? the drinking of the blood of christian babies? or the poisoning of the water to bring on the plague? or each and every jew's personal involvement in the killing of jesus? wtf. and how the hell did european rabbis who lived during the middle ages get dragged into this?

let me throw this out at y'all and you can throw it right back if it's no good. what about an american cultural center in hiroshima? we can include a really nice spa and a pool and a state of the art meditation room. wouldn't that be a super nice gesture? and then after the grateful japanese welcome us with open arms, while calling all opponents ignorant racists, they may want to pass on the kindness by opening a japanese cultural center in nanking, which will be green, include a lovely garden and be constructed from 70% recyclable materials. all will be welcome! even jews can rent out the space if the book in advance! sure, the scale of these 2 events was somewhat different than 9/11, but that's just details, amirite? it's the spirit that counts!

It's no good -- catch.

Wrap your peabrained head around this: TERRORISTS attacked the WTC. They were muslims much in the same way that they were people who had noses in the middle of their faces. There are more than 1.5 billion muslims in the world. What percentage had anything to do with 9/11?

i'm sure my brain is bigger than a pea. your slip is showing, alan

Good, I'm glad your brain is bigger than a pea, or at least that you're sure of it. So then you can process the fact that 1/4 of the people on this planet are muslim. 1/4 is nearly 25%. You're saying that 25% of the people in this world must keep their religion at least x miles from Ground Zero, is that correct?

i am saying that if these people's actions were genuinely in the spirit of peace and understanding this insanely controversial location would never have even been considered. ya dig?

oh alanhart. i feel like santa claus just died.

more from the new yorker:

Ah, the “Ground Zero mosque.” Well, for a start, it won’t be at Ground Zero. It’ll be on Park Place, two blocks north of the World Trade Center site (from which it will not be visible), in a neighborhood ajumble with restaurants, shops (electronics, porn, you name it), churches, office cubes, and the rest of the New York mishmash. Park51, as it is to be called, will have a large Islamic “prayer room,” which presumably qualifies as a mosque. But the rest of the building will be devoted to classrooms, an auditorium, galleries, a restaurant, a memorial to the victims of September 11, 2001, and a swimming pool and gym. Its sponsors envision something like the 92nd Street Y—a Y.M.I.A., you might say, open to all, including persons of the C. and H. persuasions.

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2010/08/16/100816taco_talk_hertzberg#ixzz0wRj3JP6q

Ugh, the hillbillies in flyover country need to keep their noses out of Manhattan.

I don't give a damn if they're building a church of Satanic Worship.

The only thing I care about is how it looks....and from the renderings I see of this Mosque...it looks fabulous! Build it!

I wrote this earlier:

"Who/what is the enemy?

If your answer is Muslim or Islam, then you are ignorant and/or a racist.

If your answer is not Muslim or Islam, then you should not care where the mosque will be."

To ask the question another way, do you blame the terrorists or do you blame Muslims, or do you believe they are one and the same?

The choice of location is legal but "insensitive"? It is only considered insensitive if you or you believe the families and friends of the 3000 who died blames all Muslims instead of the terrorists. Friends and families of victims do NOT have a free pass to freely accuse over a billion Muslims as terrorists AND expect all the innocent Muslims to hide in shame.

"do you blame the terrorists or do you blame Muslims"

what if they blame muslim terrorists? what do you graciously allow them to think then? and are over a billion innocent muslims all going to move into this center, to bask in the open light of no shame?

Yes, it's a secret plan to compete with the phone booths of the 1950s, or the VW Bugs of the 1960s, except instead of stuffing as many innocent college kids in as possible, it'll be over a billion innocent ... yes, MUSLIMS! Over a billion innocent muslim Santa-killing Senegalese terrorist monotheists, stuffed into a new building that wonderbra likes, but I would prefer clad in those twinkly sequin things that car wash billboards are made of.

And that terrible woman who's trying to get it opened can't find time to create her social-networking profile at bigpublicdenouncement.com -- but she can meet to discuss it in the early planning stages with the rabbi who's the director of the Jewish Community Center, and she can serve on the advisory panel of the 9/11 memorial and museum. Diabolical! But find time to flog herself because several of her other 1.5 billion co-religionists turned to terrorism while an ineffectual White House looked the other way? No. I guess it's not convenient for her to do that.

well done, clever word play is your strength. pedestrian insults of strangers' intelligence are beneath you, and frankly, cheap. i'm not beating this poor dead horse anymore. good night to you, alanhart

goodnight, lucillebluth

Why don't the builders of the mosque engage in the DIALOGUe, regardless of the reasons or the way the dialogue has started? Is condescending attitude ignorance or a finger in the eye?
licillebluth, why do you waste your energy and time on very "ignorable" piece of certified shit alanhart?

hey sunday you acute-thinking asswipe. it CAN be perceived as insensitive by the families of those who lost someone on 9/11. does that then automatically translate to them being racist or not having your brilliance to distinguish between muslims or terrorists? please. and who are you to judge them. you should quit when youre ahead which basically means refrain from posting drivel when you know nothing of what you speak.

i think most are able to distinguish between muslims and terrorists, the insensitivity comment has more to do with the rationale, leadership and failure to respond to those on the other side who feel they might be doing this with less than good intentions. and they deserve to be heard and even deserve a response. so eff you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/11/stewart-takes-on-ground-z_n_678224.html

You can't make a real argument that the overwhelming majority is ignorant. If that is the case you are trying to make, you have to look at your own position and seriously reconsider.

Sunday, alanhart, you also can't go and shout at families of the dead, at all Americans who have been seriously impacted through our lifestyle, economy, and restrictions of freedom or at the airport, and say that all of these people who have been impacted should just be "rational" and ignore their emotions and grieving. Should people "get over it" in 9 years just to have a monument for a special group in this location? Why can't it be moved? Any company that opens a retail location carefully studies the location, why not the people behind this place?

The whole point of the United States and its constitution is to protect the minority against the whims and prejudices of the majority.

RS, fair enough. And as I said earlier, I personally am not opposed to them building there. Just think it makes sense that it would be a much more helpful process to understand a bit better the intentions, leadership and funding given all the angst before we go wrapping the consititution around them. lots of people take the 5th on the advice of counsel, goes back to the sensitivity question.

but they certainly have the right to move forward and if "they" decide to not respond, thats fine too. but spare me lectures by sunday and steve on the "ignorance" of those who are offended.

When is grief a whim or a prejudice?

Why does the Constitution need to be called on when this location can be moved to another location?

Rangerfan, I would prefer it be built elsewhere for symbolic reasons,but truth be told this is way overblown. There is a cultural center on Riverside Drive and it's all peaceful and good. Worst that can be said about it is once a week for two hours there are illegally double parked Taxis which unfortunately block traffic. Hardly an issue worthy of national debate, though it would be nice if the NYPD and the DOT could address this.

I think you might be underestimating the emotional reaction from certain folks here in nyc. think the national "debate" as basically a spin zone for the media and politicos that are using it as a lightening rod for their own selfish interests but again a very legitimate issue here in nyc for those affected by 9/11. those wounds may not be that fresh but still great sensitivity there...

Years ago, I met a woman who was the wife of a fireman who died in 9/11. The fifth anniversary memorial was coming up, and she explained why she wasn't participating: "It took me four years to get through high school, and then I was done with high school. It took me four years to finish college, and then I put college behind me. Four years after 9/11 and my husband's death, I've moved on with my life and I'm not going to wallow in 9/11 memorials forever."

deplucha, grief does not warrant a blank check, and accomodations for grief are not eternal. As time passes, more and more reality checks are in order. Billy doesn't need to be enabled in his belief that mommy died of a heart attack because he was bad. Kathy doesn't need to be enabled in her belief that "the Muslims" killed daddy ... and neither do you.

It's probably a canard more than anything else, but to the extent that nine years later some of the families of 9/11 victims think they can/must trounce on the rights of innocent people for their religion, they need to be given a reality check.

lucillebluth, I apologize for being unduly harsh and insulting to you. Overheated!

good for the that woman - hooray for her and her inner fortitude. and as for the ge-over-it approach, not very compelling. and hardly a situation of trouncing on the rights of the innocents.

"hardly a situation of trouncing on the rights of the innocents" ... elaborate please ... is it not "trouncing" to tell people where they can't have a house of worship, or are you convinced that the worshippers are not reasonably innocent? Both?

As for grief, there's at least one popular religion that has a defined period of intensely focused mourning, and then you're supposed to pull your shit together, get on with your life, have one big memorial a year later, and then small but meaningful ones annually thereafter, so that you don't become a permanent mourner.

And then there's at least one religion whose practice used to include killing yourself when your spouse dies. That practice was forcibly ended by law when the democratic society dictated the limits of grieving.

So four years is the limit for grief.

But another few blocks away, we can't ask the center to move?

There is ZERO reason why this center needs to be at the location proposed. None. This is not a neighborhood where the people may use the center currently live or have lived in the past. There are no ties whatsoever of this particular area to the people would want to build this center or who would use this center.

But there are ties of in particular area to people who lost someone.

This is not a neighborhood where the people who may use the center currently live or have lived in the past.

elaboration - those that are opposed to the mosque/cultural center/rolling rink are not in a position to "tell" them anything. express their views, check. express their outrage, check. rejoice in the streets, check (although not likely) what they could conceivably EXPECT in this situation is a bit more understanding on the "leadership" behind this project. on one extreme, if its osama who is deciding to build there, legimate question, no. do i believe that - of course not. do i think it likely that its individuals who have nothing to do with the extreme brand of fundamentalist islam that "births" these maniacs - very slim that there is any connection. but to those who are offended, probably a legit question.
my own opinion on this has been clear throughout but i respectfully understand those who might be offended and they have every "right" to have an opposing view or even questions and don't deserve you and the rest of the toothless mob telling them they are ingrates and racists or simpletons. was that helpful? and its actually not all that surprising that you have a pretty definitive view on how people should grieve, mourn and conduct themselves in general according to the book of hart. nows the time for you to reach for one of your sidecars, make it a double.

Haven't been here for so long and wow, the number of sympathizers siding with the racist muslims is appalling. Well, I shouldn't really surprised - considering all the blow-hard, ignorant left-wingers. And, it's also pathetic how people are cherry-picking some "muslim" advances. Never mind all the atrocities and barbaric practices still being used by muslims.

Karma, I really hope for the muslims to get their 911 a trillion times over. We should not tolerate the intolerant.

For those who believe they should fully explain themselves and their motives for building it there, do you also believe a black man should explain why he's in a mostly white neighborhood?

now that analog is so indepth and insightful that any response would be unworthy. are you f*ng kidding me.

I think that a black man should not be hanging around naked at a white person's funeral. For that matter, I don't think a white man should be naked at another white person's funeral. Or even at the cemetary when a funeral isn't occurring.

Obama is now pro Mosque at Ground Zero, after he was pro 9-11 Trial in NYC.

If only he were pro jobs.

At least the mosque will be green

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-12/exclusive-ground-zero-mosque-goes-green

Freedom

is that not the reason for us?

So how far away from Ground Zero would be an appropriate location? A few blocks? 10 blocks?
Let's say 6 blocks. What if you're walking past it, there?
What if you are on your way to the memorial?
Or to J&R Music World?

We are just asking.

jsmith9005 thanks for posting that article, as it brought up something yet unmentioned on this board full of educated worldly un-ignorant and just generally superior people. the original name for this friendly non confrontational project was the cordoba house. huh.

I am wondering about all of you anti-mosque near ground zero people feel - is it okay to build a Christian church in Baghdad? After all, our majority-Christian military went into Iraq to prosecute an illegal war to supposedly root out the cause of 911, and hundreds of thousand of Arabs and Muslims are dead as a result. I wouldn't be surprised if the U.S. military has accidentally killed 10 times more people than died on 911.

So, how do you all feel about that? Is it okay to build a Christian Church in Baghdad? What is the appropriate, sensitive distance?

oohah, are you proposing a Christian church in Baghdad? If so, you are the first to make that proposal.

You realize that key among reasons why Al Quaeda attacks the US with planes and terrorism is because we have a presence in the middle east, in Saudi Arabia.

By the way, you refer to our military prosecuting an illegal war. How did you determine it was illegal?

deplucha, do you think there are no churches in Baghdad? Wrong if you do.

And we don't have a mere "presence" in the middle east ... we've been strangling it for a hundred years.

Interesting Mr. Pat Buchanan.

Are you on tomorrow's McLaughlin?

Deplucha, actually there is/was a significant Christian community in Iraq/Baghdad, and they have faced terrible violence because of religious intolerance since the American military invaded Iraq and set off a chain of events that has resulted in the deaths of nearly a million Iraqis, mostly Muslims. However, by your arguments above, it appears that there should be no Christian churches in Iraq/Baghdad because it is insensitive and disrespectful of the people who have been killed there due to our actions.

As a matter of fact, according your reasoning, there should be no American businesses, embassies etc. in Iraq. It is simply too insensitive of the suffering those people (And they are people just like you and me) have suffered because of our actions.

Now on to your next question: How do I know the war on Iraq was illegal? My answer to you is to do your research and find out that the grounds upon we prosecuted the war were false and in any case not in accordance with international laws. Google is at your fingertips. Similarly it would have taken 5 second search for you to know that there are Christians and Christian churches in Iraq.

Here, let me help you out:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10770239
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/iraqwar.html?q=iraqwar.html

***

Back to the original question: Based upon the fact that our majority Christian military, have launched a war in Iraq under a Christian zealot president, that has resulted in hundreds of thousand of deaths of Muslims in Iraq do you think that Christian churches should be allowed in Baghdad?

I open this question to everyone who thinks that a Mosque should not be allowed in a specific place in the U.S. which supposedly champions religious freedom.

I'm for no religious structures anywhere near the WTC site. No temples, churches or mosques. In fact, eliminate all religion from downtown including the religion of Wall Street. A library might be nice, though and a park with a baseball field.

oohah, your analogy would make sense if mosques were not allowed to be built in new york at all. an absurd suggestion. if you don't mind, a little nudge in a more appropriate direction. an evangelical mega church (complete with a botoxed closeted preacher), in the center of haditha, with a name that really encourages harmony between islam and christianity....how about our lady of constantinople. there, use that.

oohah, yes there was a significant Christian community in Iraq. How were they treated under the regime of Saddam Hussein? Better or worse than the Kurds?

Your question was about building a new church, not existing churches.

And your question was about all of Baghdad, not as like here, we are talking about a sensible radius, as lucillebluth points out.

Lastly, you call the war illegal. You may not like the war, but it is not illegal. It is not illegal in the United States. And if you wish to find yourself subject to laws not of the United States, well, one of our country's freedoms is the freedom to leave and go elsewhere. Once you accept citizenship elsewhere, we'll even let you be free of taxes.

The US does champion religious freedom. We also don't shit on the graves of people who died simply because they were American. This center should move outside of a respectful radius of the victims.

If you really consider Ground Zero to be holy, because it is a graveyard, then you'd do well to object to any contruction -- offices, stores, anything but a mausoleum -- anywhere ON the site.

Lucille, A huge portion of Iraq could be compared to Ground Zero. The sheer magnitude of people who have died there in a war we brought to their land spans all across the country.

And apparently, at least one city in religiously intoilerant Iraq has decided to go ahead and let a church be built there: http://en.aswataliraq.info/?p=119361

The rest of your response - I just can't figure it out. You want a 1 top 1 analogy for the sake of being technical, then you drown your point in cutsiness and pseudo-intellectualism.

So you want to be technical? "Technically", any religion has the right to worship where they please in the United States.

You can pretty well assume that there are new churches in Iraq wherever there are Western military installations, or housing compounds for Western oil/infrastructure workers.

Deplucha, I guess you see now that someone has suggested, and someone has approved a Christian Church in Iraq. I guess you were wrong about that! I really hope that those Christian are left to worship in peace like they should be.

***

SENSIBLE RADIUS: Please tell me what a "sensible radius" is. I bet your answer is different from Lucille's answer of what a "sensible radius" is. I bet all the other people who are also prejudiced against and predisposed to believe that Muslims are proponents of terror have their own "sensible radius".

That is the problem with murky thinking - it just doesn't hold up. I bet we could put all you anti-Muslims together in a room for a month and you could not come up with an agreed upon "sensible radius", unless that radius was outside of America, land of the free.

Deplucha, apparently you don't understand that the U.S. is one of the biggest players in the International Law scene. Apparently you don't understand that the war on Iraq did not occur "In the United States" and therefore is subject to international laws.

I was born and raised in America. Not only that, I accept her ideals unlike yourself. Including the freedom of worship without persecution from prejudiced people. I think it is more appropriate for you to seek citizenship in a country that does not really give equal rights to all religions. So perhaps you are the one who should take his or her leave. I'll even chip in for a plane ticket!

I can think of several destinations that are more in line with your personal values: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, etc. Why don't you head on over to hotwire.com and let's see if we can find you a flight asap. Don't forget your hat!

i can't make this any clearer. no one (here at least) is saying they don't have a legal right to be there. you are arguing by changing the subject, which is clever and often effective. good for you.

So which international police force is coming to arrest the US or our leaders or citizens for our so-called illegal war? And, since you are so familiar with Google, can you provide me a link to the law that the US has violated?

This is not about worship without persecution. A few blocks away outside of the radius, a little sensitivity, is in order. A sensible radius would be one in which there is or was not debris from the wreckage. A sensible radius is probably one in which someone on the 100th floor who decided to jump instead of burning, wouldn't have landed. Is that so difficult to understand? Why is this area so important for you? The only rationale why this location, and not one outside of this radius, is preferred, is because of an intention to inflame.

And interesting of your suggestion I leave to Saudi Arabia. The location where the majority of the terrorists on that day came from. Is Saudi Arabia part of the international law group that will be coming to arrest us?

Lucille, so they do have a legal right to build a Mosque where the Burlington coat factory used to be? You admit that!!

Well then good. No reason for further argument. You are within your "legal rights" to speak your mind, and feel the way you feel, expose your prejudice, and object based on fuzzy thinking, no matter how misguided you are. And the Muslims can build their Mosque and worship peacefully as is their right. God bless America!

Deplucha, are you really as ignorant as you are making yourself out to be? Are you unfamiliar with international trials that prosecute illegal wars and crimes tat cross borders? Really? Do you, like Dubya, only recognize these international laws when they suit you, or are being applied to someone else? How convenient!

I see your definition of s sensible radius is where nobody might have landed if they jumped from the 100th floor of the building. Now that is offensive! Good work. However then, I think that criteria has been met for this Mosque.

The reason that area is important, not to me, but to U.S. ideals, is that to deny the building of the Muslim house of worship there lends credence to the most base form of ignorance and intolerance, and it has no place in America.

However, I bet your offensive "sensible radius" is different from Lucille's, is different from the next guy and the next girl.

***

You can pick up a travelogue at your local Barnes and Nobles and flip through it while you watch Glen Beck. My offer to assist your migration to a country more in line with your personal ethos still stands. Good day!

*blink*

ok then!

Mosque supporters are in a minority here in the US. All the naive students-types can do is cry ignorant. The majority will win. This is democracy in action - the mosque will be stopped. On 9/11 there will be a huge gathering downtown to protest the mosque. If you are for or against go along and make your voice heard.

Did you mean 'the majority will win' based on legal grounds or public pressure based on the 'sensitivity' argument?

wanderer, educated people are also a minority in the US.

What's your point?

Very good wonderboy, all the rest are idiots clinging to their guns and religion.

Oh wait

We have to be tolerant of their intolerance.

"No, rangersfan ... swe has yet to post an exhaustive listing of every entity he himself has denounced, censured or condemned to eternal damnation, so he has no right to call this mosque-dude out on that"

Uh, sure I do. I'm not the one pulling the insensitive move in a public arena.

I'm not running for public office, I'm not building a monument, I'm not a religious leader calling for "tolerence" when I support intolerance.

So, sorry, nope. Alan, your logic is just off here.

"printer, can you print me a list of all the incidents worldwide in the last generation that have involved the murderous slaying of 3000 or more innocent people, and which ones you've publicly denounced? African slave trade, chemical explosion, that sort of thing? And how about September 11, 2001 ... how many innocent people died of cancer that day? Where were your denouncements?"

Again, LOUSY logic. If it was a cigarette hearquarters over the cancer site, then you'd have a better comparison.

Chemical headquarters over the gravesite, sure, go for it.

And, guess what, Barclays got SO MUCH crap on the naming rights.

But its getting a bit moronic to keep missing that we're talking about one of the most significant events in our history, and comparing it to smoking.

Seriously, now.

"Whether the fact that you go through life with such a flawed moral compass is a result of your environment or something more native to you, I just thank god every day that you are very much in minority in this country and most of the world. If you can't see the difference between a leader of the Muslim community in this country and his reaction to 9/11, vs. my take on cancer, you are well beyond rational discourse. I don't know how horrible of an event would have to happen to you for you to right that compass, but I hope that it never happens. May you live in that Wonderland you've created for yourself in peace."

printer, better put than me.

"I was reading the comments section from a NYT article about this subject and someone suggested this is analogous to proposing Catholic churches should not be near schools due to the cases of sexual abuse by priests."

Maybe.... but ONLY if the catholic church refused to condemn and punish the priests who committed the sins.

In this case, they're supporting the sinners!

"Wrap your peabrained head around this: TERRORISTS attacked the WTC."

And this group supports terrorists! Case closed.

"There are more than 1.5 billion muslims in the world. What percentage had anything to do with 9/11?"

What % of Germans had something to do with the death camps?

"What % of Germans had something to do with the death camps?"

Great question - so you're apparently implying Germans support them?

speaking of germans,

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iHIt9JRwyOIxxcNucgE_z7JR9I4AD9HFQ9DG0

who can point me to an appropriate board to discuss raising funds for a jcc 5 blocks from the mecca? alanhart, you with me?

Gays would be executed in a muslim country. Women have no dignity But, we have to be tolerant of their intolerance. The left is suicidal,
and I,certainly don't care about them. However, When a plane blows up or crashes into buildings the left causes others to die also.

who exactly are you blaming for blowing up the WTC other than the bombers and al queda?

Wow Julia, you are a train wreck.
Gays would be in just as much trouble in MANY Christian nations (homosexuality is illegal in 29 of the African countries). As a gay man I'd be a lot better off traveling to Malaysia(muslim) than Uganda.

ynotie29 In what muslim country could you be openly gay?

"Gays would be executed in a muslim country."

What do you mean "would be"? It's no secret that strict, literal interpretation of the Qur'an reveals some pretty shocking notions. But the same is true in Jewish and Christian scripture. Leviticus also asks that homosexuals be executed. That's kind of the point here - extremism is frightening, but that doesn't preclude a religion from eventually adapting to certain social changes.

i'm sorry, did your educated worldy self just compare malaysia to uganda? there you have it folks. in a nutshell.

Yeah? My husband and I have traveled safely as a couple in Malaysia, while that could not be said for certain Christian nations.

Julia, I'll just start with the most populous one...Indonesia

bjw2103, take a long hard look at these pictures, and then let's talk about leviticus and its stance on homosexuality

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html