Obama wants NY 9-11 Trial, Mosque, what next?

cc Even you, with a thread of integrity left, must admit that was quite a statement.

Like a cat playing with a wounded mouse, I'm all done with you, go back to your Sarah Palin blog.

julialarge...you have no idea who i am, or what i stand for yet earlier you accused me of being a mass murderer. now you accuse someone else who you also know nothing about of being a shameful coward.

has it occurred to you that you may have a problem?

Lots of hate here. Ahhh, god bless America.

tallisman Show that statement to your family. Especially your children. They can look up to you. They can admire the quality of your character. Something to live by, to be proud of,and to set an example for many generations of tallismen to come.

and a lot of anger.

julialarge...what are you so angry about? do you just come on here to scream at everyone?

bronxboy... I'm so glad you use god in lower case. I always do that too.

...you have NO IDEA who i am, or what i stand for yet earlier. NO IDEA.

You have NO IDEA. You are a very strange man.

cc I take it back. You don't even have a thread of integrity left.

You have NO IDEA. You can't handle the truth.

So many advocates for the Taliban here. Our way is freedom, not religious oppression.

And so many cowards with no faith in our tradition. We don't need to destroy America to save it. We are stronger as a free country.

Americans should be free to build a community center in their community without outsiders complaining that it is "insensitive" to act as if you were an American, or blaming Americans for crimes committed by Saudis.

except in this particular case, financeguy, whose opinion i sincerely respect, it is outsiders building a community center in an area that has little representation of their particular communty, while the shocked and outraged actual community of that particular community is trying to stop them.

Look financeguy, There are over 100 mosques in NYC. The people advocating a mosque are deliberately provoking
and creating this event. The people using the rational of freedom of religion are exploiting the virtue of the American people and using it against them. Build your damn mosque anywhere in America. The only place off limits is ground zero where in the name of the muslim religion the U.S.A was attacked and 3000 souls were murdered.

julia large: i think we need more pictures. that will definitely help inform the debate.

columbiacounty Ignored comment. Unhide

julialargeyouneednewundies......

Look tiger, there's thousands of golf clubs that allow dark skinned players, why choose us in little ole' Georgia to play a round in....

You own the land...
If it's zoned corectly...
Build what ever the heck you want...
Mosque or whatever

w67thstreet, do you honestly believe this is about racism and prejudice?

I believe it is mosquicism.

hey let's play this out.....

a bunch of right wing israelis come to the US, blows up a federal building... 7 yrs later a new Jewish center is zoned and ready to be built 5 blocks away from said blown up federal building....

Okay... let the battle begin!

interesting. has something of this nature occured in a reality which exists outside of your mind?

hey let's play this out...

a bunch of right wing israelis go to saudi arabia and blow up mecca.... 7yrs later a new jewish
center is zoned and ready to be built 5 blocks away from said blown up mecca...

Okay....let the battle begin!

so you want us to be just like saudi arabia? have you completely lost your mind?

cc You're really an idiot...

dnfcc

julia large person....what the hell is your point?

w67thstreet, your dislike of jews in general and israelis in particular has been well noted, as you have no problem broadcasting it. and there is something to be said for brutal honesty, no matter how ugly. sorry for mistakenly addressing you as a civilized person, won't make that error again

hey let's play this out.....

a bunch of left wing lunatics come to the US, blows up a country... 7 yrs later a new muslim center is zoned and ready to be built inside said blown up contry.

shiria law is enacted and the non-believers are all executed by the morality police...

bluth don't change the subject. It's usually enlightening to play out the simplest of scenarios to see if you are a hypocrite and/or how developed your moral compass swings... or maybe just needs a little oil.

did you think we'd be pumping 100x exxon valdez into the gulf?, a tsunami would kill 60K?, they'd ram planes into tall buildings?, we'd nuke two large cities?...

I think the only country that does not have rightwingnuts that don't want to take out the US, is Canada.

Lets play this out...cyborgs from the future come to attack vampires living in present day NYC in order to prevent the vampire/zombie holocaust in 2104, and after they devastate half of the UES, a few cyborg survivors decide to build a time portal at 69th and 3rd.

I mean, the OUTRAGE! How offensive to the poor future un-dead zombies!!!

do you understand the difference between reality and fantasy?

Can you IMAGINE if mutants tried to build a mutant community center in San Francisco after the Magneto/Dark Phoneix massacre of X-Men 3!!!!!

you clearly want some kind of declaration here, so here it is. i'm not jewish!

OH MY GOD the orcs want to make a shrine to Sauron RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF GONDOR!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean, after all the hobbits, elfs, and wizards that died!!!!!!!!!!

hey jason10006, lets talk about how much we hate religion. It's the only common ground...

religion is only one of the many tools humans have used to dominate and terrorize eachother. the truth is, we don't need any tools, it's in our nature. and a lot of good has come from religion. humility before a higher power, some sense of moral code, there's good stuff there

" and a lot of good has come from religion." 300 million murders and counting.. but we have a "moral code" and conformity and miser yand sacrafice and hatred and virgins to die for.

my dear julialg, i don't need to tell you that the greatest killer of the last century, the mvp if you will, has been communism. even when religion has been the rallying call for slaughter, it is usually only the minions on the ground who are sometimes true believers. the puppet masters serve the god of self interest.

all in the name of their god.

jaons :)

Bluth, okay why stop at stopping a muslim center near ground zero;
1) make racial slurs at every muslim you see;
2) if you are physically bigger, beat them up;
3) if you are not physically bigger, get more bluths;
4) burn their Korans on the street;
5) make them wear green hankerchiefs;
6) stop allowing them to cash checks;
7) make specific hoods where they can live;
8) build physical walls around those hoods;
9) make them sign their worldly possessions to bluths of the world;
happy now?

julialg, war is always in the name of power. nothing more, nothing less.

okay, I see I have lit the amber that will keep this thread up all nite..... gotta keep adding just enough wood.....

lucille/julialarge... have at it!

listen BITCH you will address me as mrs. bluth if you expect an answer

agreed communism killed the most people in the last century.. But the philosiphy of religion and communism are the same. Sacrafice for the greater good, slaves and masters, man is nothing, the individual is meaningless, sacrifice sacrifice sacrifice....

" burn their Korans on the street" that's my favorite!

to borrow from this thing that keeps trying to butt into our stimulating conversation, people are lemmings. all some people really need is someone, anyone, to give them a cause

and of course, "stimulating" was used with some irony, as this would be stimulating if we were high school freshmen passing around an ice bong. ahh youth

How about the individaul.. The rights of the individual. That's what this once great country achieved. Now we evolved into a decaying crumbling beast. I never thought I would witness the slow destruction of the American ideal. Read tallisman, those are the values and morals and integrity and honor of this country now. Read w67thstreet that is the class of the country now. Read cc, everyone is entitled to something for nothing in our country now.

then you were blinded by your idealism. no matter how sincere, idealism is still a shortcoming because it ignores history and reality. nothing lasts forever, certainly not nations. as an educated and intellectually curious person, you must have known on some level that one the barbarians would be at our gate, too. and when that day comes, like countless superpowers before us, we lie down and die. the only truly shocking thing, imo, is our shortlived glory. but then, everything happens faster now. we shouldn't expect the rise and fall of power to be different

but, you know, we all hope this doesn't happen in our own lifetime

I totally agree with you lucillebluth. You seem like a long lost friend. Thanks for all your words today. I just didn't think the end would arrive so quickly. One wastes so much time thinking you have an endless supply.

How wonderful for you both. Perhaps you can get a package deal on your therapy.

my sentiments exactly... here's some tissues for afterwards bluth/julialrg.... I hear Riversider wants a threesome. Just make sure it's a diabetic condom.

w67thstreet, are you naked right now?
Are children nearby?

w67.... The class of the country now. Vulgarity rules the day!

i don't need a deal on my therapy, i'm rich

Then take of your newest best friend.

do we need the tissues because we're crying? because we're girls?

Are you really that dumb?

cc, you're an odd bird.

julialrg, Harry Reid just joined your parade... soon you'll get Rangel and Pelosi...

Reid, Pelosi, Glenn Beck, Rangel, Mama Bear (aka Palin), Bluth, julialarge.... what a fun group of ppl. Maybe you guys can all be on the not so famous/fat/drug rehab reality show... Lindsay Lohan is shoe in in 15 yrs.... you know what, my money's on Lohan beating the odds.

see, i think she's going to end badly. that kid never had a chance.

cc never expresses opinions or real ideas. cc just responds with petty comments, always. He doesn't create, he follows far far behind.

Are you a creator, Julia the large one? Or a spouter of slogans?

Show us one of your creations, large one.

Don't post immediately after yourself, makes you look like you are desperate.

The prosecution rests. cc is found guilty. The punishment, he will walk in circles for eternity.

harry reid - racist?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hHYUXhXg36rpzKeUva55Llvea41AD9HKOTM04

Julia...your creation?

columbiacounty ... a troll?

ahh youth... I think of J.Conrad's opening paragraph in the novella Youth.

lol, i guess so. i just think of the days of passing around ice bongs.

You can still do that today.

"Agreed with Jason. We are seeing the hate and vile that religion spurs right here in the thread."

Yes, 9/11, the treatment of women in arab countries, the execution of gays, the blowing up of children in the name of Allah, all absolutely part of the hate and vile that spews from religion. Christians have their own demons, but what we're talking about is outright barbaric, and standing aside and just watching without a word makes one guilty.

Guantanamo

The left-wingers have "selective hate recognition". Discussing this is actually absurd. This is a no-brainer, should have been a non-issue - common sense, but the vile left won't be happy until there are minarets surrounding Ground Zero and all women must be covered, and we have to bow-down three times a day.

agree that this is a common sense non issue. just sad how many otherwise intelligent and informed people don't seem to grasp this

> The left-wingers have "selective hate recognition".

thats a funny but accurate way to put it.

This whole project is a security threat to downtown.

The average Muslim is just as family oriented as any other. But more terrorism is committed by Muslims. And although plenty of the terrorism is against Christians, Jews, Indians, most of the Muslim terrorism by the extreme Muslims is against other Muslims. Just pick from so many examples.

This center downtown, not inconceivable that several of the more extreme Muslims, whatever reason, find this as an excuse to commit some act against others. Whether there is immodesty because there is a swimming pool, or because both men and women can use the center, or because it is near a bar, or because it is oopen to non-believers who they view as infidels they don't want there, etc.

That is why this can't work out. Someone said that if they put a Mosque on top of the WTC that would prevent an attack, but the opposite ought to be the worry.

I think part of the problem is that what would be considered extreme in Judaism and Christianity and most other religions is not extreme within Islam.

Look how women are treated in Saudi Arabia, let alone Iran. Look at the stonings and the killings.
Look at the support of Hamas.
Look at who supported 9/11.

Saying "jews/christians have their extremists too" is intellectually dishonest.

We imprison ours, they celebrate theirs.

somewhereelse,

this "we...they" is exactly the problem. by "we" do you mean the united states, or christians and jews? by "they" do you mean saudis, or muslims? the united states is not a christian nation, or a christian and jewish nation. it is a secular state.

are the millions of muslims living in the united states included in "we" or in "they"? i consider american muslims "we," and treat them the same as anyone else. i judge them as individuals based on what they actually say and do. you apparently want to consider american muslims "they" and judge them by the actions of other people with whom they have essentially nothing in common. just like i have essentially nothing in common with Yigal Amir.

kantwon you make no sense. no matter WHERE they put this center, it would be a security risk under your analysis, dummy.

the we that do the imprisoning is the US.

> it is a secular state.

not a bad idea.

"are the millions of muslims living in the united states included in "we" or in "they"? i consider american muslims "we," and treat them the same as anyone else."

Of course they are.

" i judge them as individuals based on what they actually say and do. you apparently want to consider american muslims "they" and judge them by the actions of other people with whom they have essentially nothing in common. "

Now, you're just making sh*t up.

Thats not at all what I think, belive, or say.

it's not what you think believe or say? then why do you say that "We imprison ours, they celebrate theirs." who is the we, and who is the they? are you talking about muslims, or about saudis? because the saudis have nothing to do with the proposed islamic center. that has been proposed by a group of muslims who are citizens of the united states.

if you want to judge daisy khan and imam faisal as individuals, based on their own actions, based on their long careers are advocates of moderation and interfaith harmony, then you cannot possibly think they have anything to do with the attacks of 9/11, terrorism in general, or extremism of any kind. if you are going to judge them as individuals, why is it relevant to even discuss what sort of criminal justice procedures take place in saudi arabia? how is that relevant to a community center being built by well-respected american citizens?

> who is the we, and who is the they? are you talking about muslims, or about saudis

saudis, hence me namechecking them... and hence the point of the post, which is what is tolerated and consider "mainstream" in moslem countries.

> that has been proposed by a group of muslims who are citizens of the united states.

That is supported by and supports the groups we've already noted to be a problem.

I'm not sure where your disconnect is.

"if you want to judge daisy khan and imam faisal as individuals, based on their own actions, based on their long careers are advocates of moderation and interfaith harmony, then you cannot possibly think they have anything to do with the attacks of 9/11, terrorism in general, or extremism of any kind. "

Now thats funny. Imam fasal is now supported by Hamas, refuses to denounce them, and then (partially) blamed the US for 9.11. Doesn't sound like "interfaith harmony" to me (unless you're talking in the saudi sense where you just kill or ban the folks who disagree)

"why is it relevant to even discuss what sort of criminal justice procedures take place in saudi arabia?"

Because the conversion was brought (by others) onto the subject of extremism vs. not. And because, in case you hadn't noticed, the gaping hole in the ground is here....

Again, tolerance of intolerance is intolerance.

oh, the gaping hole in the ground! right! which is daisy khan's fault because....?

first of all, i have no idea if hamas 'supports' imam faisal, but that's irrelevant. you can't blame him for who supports him. he does not support hamas--that's the point that counts. and his statement that the US is partially responsible for 9/11 is simply a factually true statment: the CIA funded osama bin laden and many of his allies for years. we allowed known terrorists to live in our country and to take flying lessons--indeed, we taught them to fly. so i don't really see how you can blame the man for saying something that is part of the historical record.

now, if there is actual evidence that this proposed islamic center will 'support' the 'groups' that you consider a problem, please present it. it's illegal to harbor or support terrorism in this country, so if imam faisal or daisy khan are doing so, you should forward your evidence to the relevant authorities and they should be arrested.

> oh, the gaping hole in the ground! right! which is daisy khan's fault because....?

hr, why do you have to keep making things up and ascribing them to people who didn't say them?

thats the sign of a losing argument.

> first of all, i have no idea if hamas 'supports' imam faisal, but that's irrelevant.
> you can't blame him for who supports him

if he takes money, sure you can. He still has refused to reveal his sources (at least of a few days ago)

> and his statement that the US is partially responsible for 9/11 is simply a factually true statment:

Only if you redefine the term "factually".

And, yes, absolutely, I can blame the man for saying the US was an "accomplice".

wait--it's not true that the US funded osama, allowed the hijackers to immigrate, and taught them to fly planes? what definition of 'factually' would you like to use?

again, it would be illegal for imam faisal to accept funding from hamas. he is not required to release his funders to you. if you have evidence that hamas has funded him, please present it. i imagine that the relevant authorities, under relevant law, will make sure that the center is funded legally. i don't really know if hamas has funded the building of the jcc on the upper west side either. should it be shut down?

> what definition of 'factually' would you like to use?

the one that uses, well, facts.
looks up the word "accomplice".

> i imagine that the relevant authorities, under relevant law
> will make sure that the center is funded legally

You can imagine, but I don't think you really know here. There US actually blocked the 9/11 victim suits against the Saudis who supported al quaida.... there are relatively easy ways to get around this.

"i don't really know if hamas has funded the building of the jcc on the upper west side either. should it be shut down?"

I must have missed that article.... were they building on Muslim graves?

Or are you buying that "the jews did 9/11" movie?

If Jews had in fact committed mass murder in the name of Jews, and mainstream Jews supported the murder, then, yes, I would absolutely be thinking twice about having a large start of david over the grave site.

Mosque Developer and Financial Backer - for review
There are so many questions yet to be answered about the development of the mosque and Islamic cultural center planned for Lower Manhattan. Yet for some reason the real estate mogul behind it won't answer them.

Sharif el-Gamal, 37, is the waiter turned mogul behind Park51. He wanted no part of some tough questions about his development of the mosque near ground zero -- his finances, associations, or past.

Why a reputable businessman involved in a project with worldwide interest wouldn't be willing to answer a few questions is hard to understand.

El-Gamal is the president and CEO of Soho Properties, which owns 45 Park Place, the building most now known as the so-called ground zero mosque.
He bought it for $4.8 million in cash. He's getting his 15 minutes of fame. It's quite a rise for a guy who was waiting tables just a few years ago at trendy upscale Manhattan restaurants.

Now he's a real estate developer in the middle of a politically charged, highly sensitive and controversial project. Many have wondered who el-Gamal is associated with and how he's financing the deal.

We started following the money and found el-Gamal's real estate holdings included at least four buildings in Manhattan, including the mosque near ground zero, two residential buildings in Washington Heights, and a 108,000-square-foot building in Chelsea. He bought the building for $45.7 million just four months after purchasing the future mosque.

Fox 5 has learned that he had a list of investors including the very people who sold him 45 Park Place -- the mosque site.

But el-Gamal's biggest boost came from Egyptian-born Hisham Elzanaty.
We tried to ask Elzanaty some questions, but he said he didn't have the time.

Mortgage documents confirm Elzanaty is the guarantor on the $39 million loan el-Gamal's company assumed in buying the building.

It seems el-Gamal's money man couldn't get away from us fast enough either. He darted out of a nearly $2 million Roslyn Heights home and made a bee-line to his car, again refusing to answer our questions. We asked him how he knows Sharif el-Gamal.

But we've been able to find out a bit about Elzanaty without his help. He is the owner of several medical companies run out of a building in the Bronx. East Tremont medical center is a clinic. In the reception area, there is a picture of Elzanaty proudly posing with his staff.

But as state records show, Hisham Elzanaty was ordered to repay more than $331,000. An audit showed that one of his companies was overpaid by Medicaid.

We tried again to talk to Elzanaty, but once again he took off without answering any of our questions.

Much the way his associate, mosque developer Sharif el-Gamal, did.

El-Gamal remains stubbornly silent. And we've now learned he's also involved in developing another Islamic center in Harlem.
And Hisham Elzanaty -- the man who is essentially the co-signer on el-Gamal's $39 million mortgage for the office building in Chelsea -- is no stranger to headlines.

In 1999, his parents were killed when Egyptian Air Flight 990 crashed into the Atlantic Ocean off of Nantucket Island, according to a report.
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_news/manhattan/mosque-developer-and-financial-backer-20100825

I guess what is next is $60bn arms for Saudis

Arms deal: Saudi Arabia and US put 9/11 behind them
Common strategic interests and pressures of recession have helped US defence sales to the Gulf double in recent years
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/13/arms-deal-saudi-arabia-us

We should be glad that the government stopped the nutjob in Florida who wanted to burn the Koran citing how the actions were inflamatory, but why no comments on the Imam who threatened that if the Mosque downtown is moved, that the radicals will be riled up against the US? Why no comments on that threat?

And again, some naturalized citizen idiot from Somalia comes to attack America
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/11/28/2010-11-28_christmas_tree_bomber_foiled_in_attempt_to_blow_up_van_near_crowded_oregon_tree_.html?r=news/national

Is this a topic? The Republican sweep of the house and gains in the Senate took the 9/11 Trial occurring in NY off the table, in my opinion.

Politically New Yorkers are against it and holding it here is a sure fire way to lose Democratic support from NY in 2012..... And Both Cuomo and Bloomberg are against it.

Nidal Hasan: guilty: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2013/0823/Nidal-Hasan-guilty-in-Fort-Hood-massacre.-Next-question-life-or-death